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Old 2007-06-13, 22:40   Link #21
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
You don't have to think of it as a three-part exam. Let me take my comments back on the skipping part (as, that is something I used based on Iruka's words, that suggests many students took the last test with Naruto). Now, assume, during the last year, each student is given three chances for taking the graduation exam. So, each of them still counts as the graduation exam, as passing one would be sufficient for graduation (though if the grades can be used elsewhere, a student can take multiple times to increase his/her grade). Consider it as similar to the chuunin exam, as you can also take that exam multiple times, and each is considered as the final exam for becoming a chuunin. But, in our case, the student needs to continue to study in the academy during that year, regardless of their results, as we can assume a pre-determined graduation time.

Is there any contradiction in the scenario given above?
No contradiction. But it still doesn't exactly make sense. From what we've seen, the grades received in the Academy are mainly used to determine how the genin teams will be formed. As shown, a high marking student will be put on a team with a low ranking student in an attempt to even out the strength of the squads (i.e, Sasuke being put a team with Naruto, Neji placed on the same team as Lee). So a student who already has high scores and is able to pass the graduation exam the first time such as Sasuke really has no incentive to take the exam two more times to improve his grade, as it doesn't increase his chances of becoming genin. It in fact, increases the chances of being placed on a squad with an inept teammate like Naruto.

Likewise, the chuunin exam is held twice a year, but is pass/fail with no numerical score. Either it will be decided that the genin is ready to become a chuunin or not. A genin who has passed the exams has no reason to re-take the chuunin exam unless they intentionally withdrew, or were not chosen to become chuunin.
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Old 2007-06-13, 23:06   Link #22
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
That test is just for graduation, and graduation from the academy does not guarantee anything at all. To officially/completely become a genin, don't they have to pass the test of their jounin leader? And, that test can be used to verify the level of that graduates.
And i went into the problems within the Jounin portion of the test aswell... The way the test is conducted, only 9 can past and yet the test can not possibly judge which are the best 9 out of the group... The jounins make no effort to compare notes with one another inorder to see who the the top 9 students; if they do not compare notes then how can they know that There 3 students all deserve to pass... team 1 could have a perfectly good ninja on their team, but he had the misfortune of getting teamed up with two very poor examples as ninjas and they drag him down... That one ninja could get totally shafted by the system in place... really, the only way they could use the jounin tests to verify who really passes is if the jounins meet afterward in order compare their students and find out who the true top 9 are... really, considering Sakura made no attempt to make use of her intellegance and basically ran around doing nothing the whole test, i'm certain there would have been atleast 1 student out of the other 18 who would have proved himself as a better ninja...

Everyone Tested by Kurenai, Asuma, and Kakashi passed... Tell me... if we were to test all 27 students individually, testing them in all areas from personal ability to team work, what are the chances that the 9 top students would have been the ones paired up into those 3 particular teams? not very likely at all... more than likely, we would probably get one or two ninjas from each group... though technically, that would be assuming they put the teams together randomly, which we know they didn't... however, we also know it isn't the case that they put the teams together based on who they THOUGHT were the best, bascially expecting teams 7-9 to all pass... the hokage was putting the teams together based on abilities and personalities that mimiced past teams; like Ino, Shika, and Cho or like how Naruto's team mimics kakashi's and Jiryia's old teams... using that method ends up being a flaw in the way the jounin test is done, in that just because those teams worked in the past, doesn't mean that all the ninjas used to mimic the test are as good as the old ninjas, OR are more deserving of becoming ninja than some of their other peers which failed

Another thing that is faulty is just the fact that they limit the genins to only 9... i mean really, the 10th best student could actually be better than 9th student of last year's crop ... that 10th student would get shafted, despite being a better ninja than someone else who had already became a genin

Not to mention, i don't see what the point is for them to give that false message to the students when they graduate from the acdemy... congraduatl;ations you PASSED! oh wait, we were just kidding...
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As for their initial test, I don't see any problem with the bunshin jutsu, it tests the basic ninjutsu skills for a ninja. And, bunshin jutsu is just one of the tests (as told by Naruto, they can be given different tests).

For the contents of the exam, (assuming there are many) one of the translations (maybe the version published in English) mention that the tests might have multiple subjects, and bunshin belongs to the ninjutsu part. ("Naruto: ...the ninjutsu test on the final exam...")
First, Naruto only says the "ninjutsu on the test" not the "Ninjutsu PART of the test"... Second, we are given no sign of any other parts of the test... Third, even if it was only a third of the test, it's still a very poor way to test... The genin are taught other jutsus aswell, such as the replacement jutsu and the henge jutsu, two jutsus that are very commonly used by even high level ninjas... surely these jutsu should be included aswell on the test... hell, other than Sakura and i think the rain ninjas, we've never even seen anyone use normal clones... overall, there's no way Naruto should have failed the test because of ONE jutsu...
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Old 2007-06-14, 00:32   Link #23
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
So a student who already has high scores and is able to pass the graduation exam the first time such as Sasuke really has no incentive to take the exam two more times to improve his grade, as it doesn't increase his chances of becoming genin. It in fact, increases the chances of being placed on a squad with an inept teammate like Naruto.
Unless there would be some gain from taking the exam (for instance, from time to time, the administration would give some awards for anyone who gets very good grades from those final exams) or some obligation of taking it, no one would take the other ones after passing the first. Or they might just take the last one, cause, it is mostly the case that the one who doesn't trust his abilities, would want to use every chance possible. The others might just wanna polish their skills till the last exam, and take it only once. If there is some studying phase for each exam, I doubt, many people would want to make the choice of studying for each exam. Anyway, as I mentioned previously, you can find multiple reasons to justify that failure case.

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Likewise, the chuunin exam is held twice a year, but is pass/fail with no numerical score. Either it will be decided that the genin is ready to become a chuunin or not. A genin who has passed the exams has no reason to re-take the chuunin exam unless they intentionally withdrew, or were not chosen to become chuunin.
Since we are talking about the school, there might be some differences in grading. Even if there is pass/fail, some systems might allow for grading from 0-100, and let anyone who got a score above 60-70 pass. Consider also this, for chuunin exam, besides not having additional gain, retaking the test may not be allowed, if already passed. For academy graduation, we know that the grades have some effects in the student's life (the degree may not be known by a student). And, if the students are encouraged to increase their grades, there will be some who might wanna take the exam repeated times, if it will increase their grade at the end. Anyway, that is how I look.

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
And i went into the problems within the Jounin portion of the test aswell... The way the test is conducted, only 9 can past and yet the test can not possibly judge which are the best 9 out of the group...
Cannot? Why? The students' grades and what they can do are pretty much known before that exam by the jounin. So, if I were to decide to select 9 students out of those twenty-something, what can I do? Even though, I select the groups based on average grades, I will still make sure, I can order them in strength, before that exam, and assign the jounins in that order, from the most deserving one to the least, and make the selection based on that order. Such as? The first three do their test, the undeserving ones based on the jounin's impressions are replaced by the lower-ranked groups. It is easy logic, and you can easily fail the others using the test results (their students can hardly succeed in taking the bells if the jounin plays a bit serious).

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Tell me... if we were to test all 27 students individually, testing them in all areas from personal ability to team work, what are the chances that the 9 top students would have been the ones paired up into those 3 particular teams? not very likely at all...
The point is they have to form the teams, and the formation should be justifiable. Even though, they will try to create some balance, it will not have that balance. So, at the end, only three of those 9 selected will be in the top 9 of the class. There will always be unfairness (the sources of jounins are limited after all). Then the question is, which way is the fair way? My answer is, I don't know.

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Not to mention, i don't see what the point is for them to give that false message to the students when they graduate from the acdemy... congraduatl;ations you PASSED! oh wait, we were just kidding...
Why not? If this is considered as the best system to implement, by reducing the number in the school that studies, and allowing a certain to have privileges...

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First, Naruto only says the "ninjutsu on the test" not the "Ninjutsu PART of the test"... Second, we are given no sign of any other parts of the test... Third, even if it was only a third of the test, it's still a very poor way to test... The genin are taught other jutsus aswell, such as the replacement jutsu and the henge jutsu, two jutsus that are very commonly used by even high level ninjas... surely these jutsu should be included aswell on the test... hell, other than Sakura and i think the rain ninjas, we've never even seen anyone use normal clones... overall, there's no way Naruto should have failed the test because of ONE jutsu...
In the trasnlation, I read, it says, ninjutsu test of the final exam. So, ninjutsu test can be the final exam by itself, or it can just be a part of it. It is not very clear.

And, for Naruto to fail just for one jutsu, why not? In the chuunin exam, in the paper test part, regardless of what the entrants did during the exam, many people failed because they are scared to continue the exam. And, that is another pass/fail situation. For a genin, the test looks to be a weaker version of the chuunin test, understandably. And, in what exam, the examiners ask about every single thing the entrant is expected to know on the subject? They only select a few from them. In the case of Naruto, it is 1 out of 3 (or put another number here) possible topics, for me, that is logical. Especially, if in ninjutsu, those students are able to learn only 3 ninjutsu techniques through their whole life upto that point.
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Old 2007-06-14, 04:36   Link #24
Slayerx
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Cannot? Why? The students' grades and what they can do are pretty much known before that exam by the jounin. So, if I were to decide to select 9 students out of those twenty-something, what can I do? Even though, I select the groups based on average grades, I will still make sure, I can order them in strength, before that exam, and assign the jounins in that order, from the most deserving one to the least, and make the selection based on that order. Such as? The first three do their test, the undeserving ones based on the jounin's impressions are replaced by the lower-ranked groups. It is easy logic, and you can easily fail the others using the test results (their students can hardly succeed in taking the bells if the jounin plays a bit serious).
Well in terms of grades, the problem here is that ninja like Shikamaru and Naruto both had very low grades, while Sakura had very high grades... however, in terms of ninja ability, Naruto showed potential with his shadow clones, but Saukra is pratically useless... shika maru is an unknown since he does have good jutsu, but its questionable if anyone knew due to his lazy nature... you base it on strength, a Saukra should have been eliminated from the 9... you base it on grades, and naruto and Shikamaru should have been eliminated... you mix the two together, and now things just become flawed. Afterall, whose to say that a ninja that excels in grades, but fails in strength, is better than a ninja who averages in both? Really, the 9 that were chosen for the those 3 groups pretty much show no sign of a real method being used to determine the best out of the 27...

Quite frankly, Sakura, is the biggest evidence to the flaw in the jounin test... It is true she is intellgent and has some ability with genjutsu,but as the jounin test and EVERYTHING pre-timeskip proves, She was worthless as a ninja... Her intellgence and genjutsu only helped once or twice throughout the ENTIRE pre-timeskip, that's very pittiful... Her physical abilities and overall usefulness to the team were to damn weak... By all means, she should have held back and told to increase her physical abilites, or excel furthar in her other abilities more before becoming a genin... as she was, she was worthless... she didn't become useful until after Tsunade taught her medicine and increase her physical ability, and quite frankly, she should have stayed off the battle until she did that. considering how useless Sakura was, i find it hard to believe that not one of those 18 remaining students would have made a worse ninja than she was... She should have been held back till after she started training with tsunade

btw... it's not nessasarily true that all of the genin take the same bell test... Kakashi has been known to fail all of his students in the past while other jounins passed there's... he is a particualry tough grader. Whne Jiriaya onced talked to naruto about having Kakashi as his teacher, jiriaya said something like "oh so you must have had the bell test"... if the test was the same for all genin, then it wouldn't have mattered who Naruto's teacher was... Kakashi seems to use the bell test because it was what yondiame used, and he learned in from jiriyia, and he learned it from Sandiame...

the tests and grading process of each Jounin in turn only add to the flaws... by all means, if they really are being tested in the way you say, then they should be tested the exact same way... but while one group might pass under Asuma, they might have failed under Kakashi

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The point is they have to form the teams, and the formation should be justifiable. Even though, they will try to create some balance, it will not have that balance. So, at the end, only three of those 9 selected will be in the top 9 of the class. There will always be unfairness (the sources of jounins are limited after all). Then the question is, which way is the fair way? My answer is, I don't know.
The best way is to first do an accurate measurement of each student individually, testing them in all areas, and then essentially do what you think they are doing... But as sakura's utter uselessness proves, they did not, since i find it hard to believe that she would make the top 9 in overall ability...

Even more proof that they did not pick the top 9 is, as i said in an earlier post, the method to pick each team was based off of the kind of teams that worked in the past... Ino, Shika, and Cho were team together as a reflection of their fathers... and Sasuke, Naruto and Sasuke, were picked as reflections of Jiriyia's and Kakashi's old teams... how can they pick the top 9 and at the same time match them up is such a way... they pretty much can't, hence how it was possibly for someone as useless as Sakura to make it on to Naruto's and sasuke's team, because even though she was useless, she was similar to Rin and Tsunade; but just because she was similar did not mean she would become like either of them... instead of promoting a student that may have already shown potnetial, they promoted as student who, in an un-educated guess, MIGHT become a good ninja

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Why not? If this is considered as the best system to implement, by reducing the number in the school that studies, and allowing a certain to have privileges...
Umm... how about not letting the students graduate in the first place... they are told that they will become genin and that the headband is a sign they are true ninjas, this however is a bold face lie... all the students seem to be led to this false belief. It's just plain crual to do that to them... give them the final exam, but don't give the headband, and tell them that they aren't genin yet.

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And, for Naruto to fail just for one jutsu, why not? In the chuunin exam, in the paper test part, regardless of what the entrants did during the exam, many people failed because they are scared to continue the exam. And, that is another pass/fail situation. For a genin, the test looks to be a weaker version of the chuunin test, understandably. And, in what exam, the examiners ask about every single thing the entrant is expected to know on the subject? They only select a few from them. In the case of Naruto, it is 1 out of 3 (or put another number here) possible topics, for me, that is logical. Especially, if in ninjutsu, those students are able to learn only 3 ninjutsu techniques through their whole life upto that point.
Actually there is a big difference there... the 1st part of the chunin exam is meant to test ninjas on a quality that they MUST have in order to become good chunins... if they do not have this quality then they should not be chunin... This does NOT compare to the clone jutsu... The clone jutsu is one of the most least used of the basic jutsus... Sakura is so far the ONLY kohona ninja to be see actully making use of the technique in combat (note: she only did it once)... All other genins choose not to make use of such techniques... on the other hand, The transformation jutsu and the replacement jutsu are genin level jutsu that even high level jounins still make use of... if any jutsu's should be tested, it should be those to...

But even still, testing Ninjutsu alone does not judge accuratly if one could be a good ninja... As rock Lee proves beautiful, a ninja does not even need ninjutsu to become a strong ninja... and just as Lee uses awsome taijutsu, one could potentially exel in genjutsu to become a great ninja... there are many ways a ninja can fight and be great genin, where they slack off in one area they may exel in another... the only true way a ninja can be tested is by testing them in all of the major areas and giving them an overall evaluation... Naruto says he always failed because of the clone part of the test, had that only been one part of the test, then he could still pass by doing well in the others
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Old 2007-06-14, 12:43   Link #25
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Well in terms of grades, the problem here is that ninja like Shikamaru and Naruto both had very low grades, while Sakura had very high grades...
Sakura was in the middle of the class. That means, the grades do reflect both intelligence and practical abilities. We don't know what is the weight they use to determine the final grade. Considering Sakura's intelligence, maybe they give a little bit more weight to practical skills. And, maybe they also used some other information to evaluate the students, that would put maybe Shikamaru closer to Sasuke than Naruto.
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you base it on strength, a Saukra should have been eliminated from the 9... you base it on grades, and naruto and Shikamaru should have been eliminated... you mix the two together, and now things just become flawed. Afterall, whose to say that a ninja that excels in grades, but fails in strength, is better than a ninja who averages in both? Really, the 9 that were chosen for the those 3 groups pretty much show no sign of a real method being used to determine the best out of the 27...
But, after many years, we have seen that the selection method was indeed correct. The students that are evaluated based on "whatever the method used", improved within the group they are in, accordingly. Doesn't it look like the result is a success?
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It is true she is intellgent and has some ability with genjutsu,but as the jounin test and EVERYTHING pre-timeskip proves, She was worthless as a ninja...
Maybe, the remaining 6 groups have more people that are more pitiful than Sakura. We don't know. And, Sakura showed she has the potential to become very good, regardless of how she performed. She didn't have the motivation, and at the end of first part, she found that.

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She should have been held back till after she started training with tsunade
If she should have been held back, a good ninja like Sakura would have been thrown to the trash before even growing. Why? Because, she wouldn't be grouped with Sasuke, and she wouldn't have the motivation to make her become strong.

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btw... it's not nessasarily true that all of the genin take the same bell test...
Quite possibly true, as the test evaluation differs between Sandaime's and Kakashi's. But, isn't it interesting, the first team to take the bell test is the Kakashi team (the day after the selection), assuming that is the only place for the bell test?
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but while one group might pass under Asuma, they might have failed under Kakashi
And, that might be what happened in the past. But, do you remember what Sandaime said? Kakashi's decisions were correct (or something along those lines). That means if the ones failed under him passed by another teacher, they didn't become good ninjas.
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The best way is to first do an accurate measurement of each student individually, testing them in all areas, and then essentially do what you think they are doing... But as sakura's utter uselessness proves, they did not, since i find it hard to believe that she would make the top 9 in overall ability...
How? You do not like the way the students are tested during the years they are in the school (which is the most accurate way to test the potential abilities of students, rather than a short test)! Also, you are using Sakura as your example, but what she became showed she had the potential. And, if the test results showed that, the selection criteria might be correct, don't you think? What the students would do in the next few months do not really matter, what really matters is how they will do in the long run.

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Ino, Shika, and Cho were team together as a reflection of their fathers... and Sasuke, Naruto and Sasuke, were picked as reflections of Jiriyia's and Kakashi's old teams...
I think Shika's team is the only one that resembles to the past selection.

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Umm... how about not letting the students graduate in the first place... they are told that they will become genin and that the headband is a sign they are true ninjas, this however is a bold face lie... all the students seem to be led to this false belief. It's just plain crual to do that to them... give them the final exam, but don't give the headband, and tell them that they aren't genin yet.
First, headband is a sign they are true ninjas. Isn't this the case in general? Think of all the ninjas you have seen? Even the outlaws carry that headband.

And, I don't think it is cruel. A ninja needs to see beyond what they are told there. There are 27 students. Each year if that many students graduate, and if jounins are to accompany that students for a long time, they should have thought that the limited number of jounins wouldn't allow that many people to be grouped with the jounins. So, the academy graduation test result is only a temporary result. If they cannot see that, then they don't have any right to complain about what they are told.

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Actually there is a big difference there... the 1st part of the chunin exam is meant to test ninjas on a quality that they MUST have in order to become good chunins... if they do not have this quality then they should not be chunin... This does NOT compare to the clone jutsu... The clone jutsu is one of the most least used of the basic jutsus... Sakura is so far the ONLY kohona ninja to be see actully making use of the technique in combat (note: she only did it once)... All other genins choose not to make use of such techniques... on the other hand, The transformation jutsu and the replacement jutsu are genin level jutsu that even high level jounins still make use of... if any jutsu's should be tested, it should be those to...
They must have that quality, but, it is not used in every test. So, the students have to know other things as well. And, bunshin jutsu seems to be another basic skill they must all know. Considering the differences between the tests, and the value each carries, those two tests can be considered as being similar, with different degree of difficulty.

And, how do you know, the other students do not use that? If the conditions require they might use. For Sakura, this was the only method of fighting at the time, and that is why she relied mostly on that. Replacement jutsu is another basic skill, and how many Konoha ninja we have seen using that? Definitely, not all.

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But even still, testing Ninjutsu alone does not judge accuratly if one could be a good ninja... As rock Lee proves beautiful, a ninja does not even need ninjutsu to become a strong ninja... and just as Lee uses awsome taijutsu, one could potentially exel in genjutsu to become a great ninja... there are many ways a ninja can fight and be great genin, where they slack off in one area they may exel in another... the only true way a ninja can be tested is by testing them in all of the major areas and giving them an overall evaluation... Naruto says he always failed because of the clone part of the test, had that only been one part of the test, then he could still pass by doing well in the others
Again, it doesn't clearly say, whether ninjutsu is the only test or not. It may or may not be. From that translation, to me, it is not clear. And, if the clone part is the most difficult to do for them, then it is only logical to use that part during the exam, especially if using that move requires the best test for chakra usage skills for them (compared to all the other ninjutsu techniques they know).

Anyway, the general evaluation is done during the years they are in the school and during the real genin test.
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Old 2007-06-14, 12:56   Link #26
EdenB
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I always thought the easiest explaination was either:

A) Naruto demanded to take the exam early several times. This would cover the failing previously while being in his own age group class.

B) A system where there are three mock exams which help determine your position in class perhaps and then a real exam which is for whether you graduate or not. That way he could fail the three previous exams (being dead last in class) and still graduate with his age group.
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Old 2007-06-14, 17:50   Link #27
Slayerx
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But, after many years, we have seen that the selection method was indeed correct. The students that are evaluated based on "whatever the method used", improved within the group they are in, accordingly. Doesn't it look like the result is a success?
the point is, there are many potential Genin who could be even better then some of the current genin, but are getting screwed because of the system in place

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Maybe, the remaining 6 groups have more people that are more pitiful than Sakura. We don't know. And, Sakura showed she has the potential to become very good, regardless of how she performed. She didn't have the motivation, and at the end of first part, she found that.

...If she should have been held back, a good ninja like Sakura would have been thrown to the trash before even growing. Why? Because, she wouldn't be grouped with Sasuke, and she wouldn't have the motivation to make her become strong
I highly doubt that there were 18 other poeple that would have been weaker than Sakura... seriously, Sakura is practically the definition of a weak ninja... potential means nothing without motivation. She should have been sent back to the academy UNTIL she found the motivation... Sending a ninja out into the field before they atleast have some decent ability is a good way to get them killed before they can make use of that potential... Potential means they MIGHT become something, not that they WILL become something

If a ninja really does have the potential to be a good ninja, then they don't need to be in the field to find the motivation they need to start advancing... sending poorly skilled ninjas out and HOPING they will make something of themselves is a good way to get them killed... Hell, one thing you can recall is from the chunin exam, is that there were adults and even one old genin... probably examples of "ninja with potential" that never got anywhere; Sakura could have ended up like them, while a student who was already showing skill, got pushed aside for her "potential"...

Because of her severe lack of physical ability, Sakura of all poeple should have been held back until she either increased her physical abilties, became amazing with genjutsu, became a tactical genius, devleoped good medical jutsu or developed just about ANY skill that would have been useful... i mean think about it, If Sasuke was the only thing that really pushed her, as you say it did, then what would have happened if she ended up on a team with someone other than the person she was in love with? (does the hokage actually place personal feeligns as part of the consiteration for making teams... if so, not only does that seem extremly faultly, but it also interfers in picking the top 9 students) She would have still never found her movitvation and could have been killed... If Sakura really did have such great potential, then she could have pushed herself at home...

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Quite possibly true, as the test evaluation differs between Sandaime's and Kakashi's. But, isn't it interesting, the first team to take the bell test is the Kakashi team (the day after the selection), assuming that is the only place for the bell test?
That's assuming that the other jounins also use a bell test to test their students; based on Jiriyia's comment to Naruto, the other jounins may have completly different methods...

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And, that might be what happened in the past. But, do you remember what Sandaime said? Kakashi's decisions were correct (or something along those lines). That means if the ones failed under him passed by another teacher, they didn't become good ninjas.
So doesn't that mean that Kakashi should be testing ALL of the 27 students and not just 3 of them? Afterall, if one teacher is better at seeing who the best students are, then shouldn't he judge them all, or atleast teach the other teachers how to judge just aswell?

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I think Shika's team is the only one that resembles to the past selection.
Recall what Tsunade said about the genin teams after she first became hokage... She was able to see a pattern to how the Sarutobi was building the teams. It seems she was implying that the teams were reflactions of previous teams, since she was looking at Shika, Ino and Cho when she said that, a group that most resembles a past team... this is probably why Naruto's team seems so much like two teams in the past... again, it would be almost impossible to make sure the teams reflected past teams AND only use the top students; Only through the power of PLOT could it work out so perfectly everytime; in all beleivabilty, that could only happen some of the time... one has to come before the other, and in this case it sounds like former

Quote:
First, headband is a sign they are true ninjas. Isn't this the case in general? Think of all the ninjas you have seen? Even the outlaws carry that headband.
But the 18 who fail are NOT true ninjas... True ninjas are those that actually become Genin, since they are the ones who will get serious training and are starting their careers. Those who get sent back to the academy can not be called true ninjas, afterall, they're still in school and don't go on missions... they're no different then the students who failed their final test. The outlaws who carry the headband, atleast reached the genin level...

Quote:
They must have that quality, but, it is not used in every test. So, the students have to know other things as well. And, bunshin jutsu seems to be another basic skill they must all know. Considering the differences between the tests, and the value each carries, those two tests can be considered as being similar, with different degree of difficulty.
Again the clone jutsu has been shown to be a jutsu that a ninja does not actually need... A ninja could easily get by his whole ninja life without ever making use of that skill. The Chunin exam question however, test a quality that all chunins have instictivly... if a ninja doesn't have that quality then they would not a make a good Chunin... But if a ninja lacks the clone jutsu, they can definatly still become a good ninja

it's true that the proctor doesn't test for that chunin quality everytime, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a quality that ALL chunins should have... if they don't have then they probably won't pass the later portions of the test anyway; it's kind of a, "should we fail them now, or let them fail later" kind of situation for those who do not have that quality... Really, the ONLY reason they don't test for that quality everytime is because if they did, then the students would always know the answer... however, it may not be the only essential quality a Chunin must have, so they may test something different each time... that way, genin can't just copy from before to pass easily if they failed the first time, they either get lucky, or actually come to possess that quality.
Quote:
And, how do you know, the other students do not use that? If the conditions require they might use. For Sakura, this was the only method of fighting at the time, and that is why she relied mostly on that. Replacement jutsu is another basic skill, and how many Konoha ninja we have seen using that? Definitely, not all.
name ONE time that you have ever seen a kohona ninja use the clone jutsu other than Sakura... as for the replacment jutsu; i have already said that we have seen the justu used commonly by even those on the jounin level; we've definatly seen kakshi use it quite a few times. replacement along with transformation, are basic jutsu used commonly... clones how are not... the ONLY clones we ever see kohona ninjas use are some form of solid clone.
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Old 2007-06-14, 20:57   Link #28
Kyu410
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Slayerx what you say makes a lot of sense but it might not depend on feelings at all to Sarutobi. It might depend on finding a way through the weakness of the genins and choosing a suitable jonin to fix that. In this case Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura needed to work on teamwork. The best teacher who was all about teamwork was Kakashi.

Sakura can't be counted out like that because she always looked down on herself as a ninja. That was stopping her from becoming a true ninja not Sasuke. Of course she liked him and was distracted by him but when that happens she never forgets the mission. Also she is exceptional in taijutsu, ninjutsu, and genjutsu its just that her weakness stopped her from becoming stronger. Naruto and Sasuke overcame their weaknesses because all they needed to do was get along and thats why they were good before and now. It just took Sakura longer to escape her esteem weakness.

For all we know maybe a genin passes just by knowing the basics.
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Old 2007-06-16, 17:51   Link #29
Kiba_5477
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ok sasuke grauated at the firs chunnin exam in the seiries cauz rember the ref said you pass your skills are of chounnin levell and rite before sasuke chased gaara he ask him "so is this my first chuunin rank misson?" and the reff nodded yes. an rock lee , ten ten ,and neji are no part of the rookie nine cause if they were it would be called the rookie 12 plus there 13-14 year olds. naruto faild the first chuunin exam skiped the scond and 3rd to train with ebisu (I think, cuz I read this somwere) and the jiraya pops up and uses a frog techniqu type move to use his toungh to knock out ebisu for no reason cuz infact ebisu was starting to like naruto. and the the 2 1/2 -3 year time skip happend.

Quote:
But, after many years, we have seen that the selection method was indeed correct. The students that are evaluated based on "whatever the method used", improved within the group they are in, accordingly. Doesn't it look like the result is a success?
the point is, there are many potential Genin who could be even better then some of the current genin, but are getting screwed because of the system in place

Quote:
Maybe, the remaining 6 groups have more people that are more pitiful than Sakura. We don't know. And, Sakura showed she has the potential to become very good, regardless of how she performed. She didn't have the motivation, and at the end of first part, she found that.

...If she should have been held back, a good ninja like Sakura would have been thrown to the trash before even growing. Why? Because, she wouldn't be grouped with Sasuke, and she wouldn't have the motivation to make her become strong
I highly doubt that there were 18 other poeple that would have been weaker than Sakura... seriously, Sakura is practically the definition of a weak ninja... potential means nothing without motivation. She should have been sent back to the academy UNTIL she found the motivation... Sending a ninja out into the field before they atleast have some decent ability is a good way to get them killed before they can make use of that potential... Potential means they MIGHT become something, not that they WILL become something

If a ninja really does have the potential to be a good ninja, then they don't need to be in the field to find the motivation they need to start advancing... sending poorly skilled ninjas out and HOPING they will make something of themselves is a good way to get them killed... Hell, one thing you can recall is from the chunin exam, is that there were adults and even one old genin... probably examples of "ninja with potential" that never got anywhere; Sakura could have ended up like them, while a student who was already showing skill, got pushed aside for her "potential"...

Because of her severe lack of physical ability, Sakura of all poeple should have been held back until she either increased her physical abilties, became amazing with genjutsu, became a tactical genius, devleoped good medical jutsu or developed just about ANY skill that would have been useful... i mean think about it, If Sasuke was the only thing that really pushed her, as you say it did, then what would have happened if she ended up on a team with someone other than the person she was in love with? (does the hokage actually place personal feeligns as part of the consiteration for making teams... if so, not only does that seem extremly faultly, but it also interfers in picking the top 9 students) She would have still never found her movitvation and could have been killed... If Sakura really did have such great potential, then she could have pushed herself at home...

Quote:
Quite possibly true, as the test evaluation differs between Sandaime's and Kakashi's. But, isn't it interesting, the first team to take the bell test is the Kakashi team (the day after the selection), assuming that is the only place for the bell test?
That's assuming that the other jounins also use a bell test to test their students; based on Jiriyia's comment to Naruto, the other jounins may have completly different methods...

Quote:
And, that might be what happened in the past. But, do you remember what Sandaime said? Kakashi's decisions were correct (or something along those lines). That means if the ones failed under him passed by another teacher, they didn't become good ninjas.
So doesn't that mean that Kakashi should be testing ALL of the 27 students and not just 3 of them? Afterall, if one teacher is better at seeing who the best students are, then shouldn't he judge them all, or atleast teach the other teachers how to judge just aswell?

Quote:
I think Shika's team is the only one that resembles to the past selection.
Recall what Tsunade said about the genin teams after she first became hokage... She was able to see a pattern to how the Sarutobi was building the teams. It seems she was implying that the teams were reflactions of previous teams, since she was looking at Shika, Ino and Cho when she said that, a group that most resembles a past team... this is probably why Naruto's team seems so much like two teams in the past... again, it would be almost impossible to make sure the teams reflected past teams AND only use the top students; Only through the power of PLOT could it work out so perfectly everytime; in all beleivabilty, that could only happen some of the time... one has to come before the other, and in this case it sounds like former

Quote:
First, headband is a sign they are true ninjas. Isn't this the case in general? Think of all the ninjas you have seen? Even the outlaws carry that headband.
But the 18 who fail are NOT true ninjas... True ninjas are those that actually become Genin, since they are the ones who will get serious training and are starting their careers. Those who get sent back to the academy can not be called true ninjas, afterall, they're still in school and don't go on missions... they're no different then the students who failed their final test. The outlaws who carry the headband, atleast reached the genin level...

Quote:
They must have that quality, but, it is not used in every test. So, the students have to know other things as well. And, bunshin jutsu seems to be another basic skill they must all know. Considering the differences between the tests, and the value each carries, those two tests can be considered as being similar, with different degree of difficulty.
Again the clone jutsu has been shown to be a jutsu that a ninja does not actually need... A ninja could easily get by his whole ninja life without ever making use of that skill. The Chunin exam question however, test a quality that all chunins have instictivly... if a ninja doesn't have that quality then they would not a make a good Chunin... But if a ninja lacks the clone jutsu, they can definatly still become a good ninja

it's true that the proctor doesn't test for that chunin quality everytime, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a quality that ALL chunins should have... if they don't have then they probably won't pass the later portions of the test anyway; it's kind of a, "should we fail them now, or let them fail later" kind of situation for those who do not have that quality... Really, the ONLY reason they don't test for that quality everytime is because if they did, then the students would always know the answer... however, it may not be the only essential quality a Chunin must have, so they may test something different each time... that way, genin can't just copy from before to pass easily if they failed the first time, they either get lucky, or actually come to possess that quality.
Quote:
And, how do you know, the other students do not use that? If the conditions require they might use. For Sakura, this was the only method of fighting at the time, and that is why she relied mostly on that. Replacement jutsu is another basic skill, and how many Konoha ninja we have seen using that? Definitely, not all.
name ONE time that you have ever seen a kohona ninja use the clone jutsu other than Sakura... as for the replacment jutsu; i have already said that we have seen the justu used commonly by even those on the jounin level; we've definatly seen kakshi use it quite a few times. replacement along with transformation, are basic jutsu used commonly... clones how are not... the ONLY clones we ever see kohona ninjas use are some form of solid clone

ok well you don't know to much about naruto charecters that well If you think sakura is the only on with motavation most of the charecers have one naruto wants to be hakage,sasuke wants to kill is brother, orochimaru wants to destroy the whole leaf village. so really think before you say that otherwise yea your post is pretty rite on.

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-06-16 at 19:29. Reason: do not double post
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Old 2007-06-17, 13:52   Link #30
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I think the most plausible explanation is that Naruto took the test whenever it was an option, even when he wasn't ready at all. Maybe they were just humoring him. And remember, even when he graduated he still didn't actually pass the exam like everybody else. It's also possible that he started younger than the others because he had no family, and was held back a couple times.
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Old 2007-06-17, 14:02   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zek View Post
I think the most plausible explanation is that Naruto took the test whenever it was an option, even when he wasn't ready at all.
Don't you think Sasuke would have come up with the same thing (starting later than Naruto is not an option here), and try graduating as early as he can?
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Old 2007-06-17, 16:44   Link #32
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Originally Posted by ergonykto View Post
Nope, his father was still alive at the time and concentrating his attention on Itachi. Sasuke was too dutiful a son not to do what he was told. He most probably went to the academy when his father determined it to be the right time for him.
Since Naruto has always been around Sasuke and the others, it is highly likely they started the school together, that is 'when Sasuke's family was alive' era. And, after the parents killed, they were still around each other, meaning, studying in the same year in the school. And, around that time, considering his goal in life, Sasuke should be interested in graduating as much as Naruto had wanted to achieve what he can as early as he could. However, that didn't happen. And, I don't think Naruto would be put in a prioritized position that is above others, referring to the equal rights in graduation.

And, taking multiple graduation exams, because of being in different years, suggest, Naruto and Sasuke should only be studying together during the last year, which is not possible considering the memories Naruto showed us. Also, without a parent and relying on support from the town, Naruto shouldn't be in a position to start earlier than he could.
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Old 2007-06-17, 16:59   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Also, without a parent and relying on support from the town, Naruto shouldn't be in a position to start earlier than he could.
Actually, when he was very young, he was probably raised in a orphanage. Since it's a military village, I would not be too surprised if the orphanage was run by the military, which would make it a kind of cram school for the academy and would allow the children to be admitted early in the academy. (kids are better in a class than wandering in the streets on their own during the whole day).

Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2007-06-17, 17:23   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Actually, when he was very young, he was probably raised in a orphanage. Since it's a military village, I would not be too surprised if the orphanage was run by the military, which would make it a kind of cram school for the academy and would allow the children to be admitted early in the academy. (kids are better in a class than wandering in the streets on their own during the whole day).

Spoiler for manga:
That would have been the case, if Sandaime were not the Hokage...And, I highly doubt, if such students were to be given some kind of priority, the Uchihas, maybe the most military-oriented clan in Konoha, would want to be exempt from that.
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Old 2007-06-18, 09:05   Link #35
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The way I see it Naruto begun the academy at an earlier moment than Sasuke and the others, and hence he took the graduation test more times. For example, Naruto could have begun the Academy 1 year earlier than Sasuke, and if the Test are given 2 times each Year, you could see the difference there. It could be less, as we donít know the frequency these tests are handed out.

But, looking at the perspective from the Mangaka, I think that quote was something said at the beginning and Kishi did not gave it too much attention to it, it could fall inside of the plothole category, but not in contradiction category.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-06-18 at 09:17.
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Old 2007-06-18, 09:38   Link #36
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Hmmm from the first volume the exam Naruto failed seemed very casual, much like a simple test in class. It's possible there are simply several tests a years and if you succeed you have the right to pass the real exam with a Jounin in order for him to see if you are Genin material. If you mess up your tests you are not judged worthy to waste their time.
Naruto would have simply messed up 3 tests during his year and couldn't be presented as the real exam contrary to Sasuke who scored best at every tests (or just the first one if only one is neccessary) but in the end the real exam was still at the end of the year for all the students.

Basically Sazelyt's theory seems fitting to me.
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Old 2007-06-18, 14:28   Link #37
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also

sasuke's clan was killed when he was seven so i dont think he would wait 4 or 5 years to go back to the academy.
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Old 2007-06-19, 18:01   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Don't you think Sasuke would have come up with the same thing (starting later than Naruto is not an option here), and try graduating as early as he can?
Although Naruto is my favorite character, he was stupid and arrogant as a kid. Sasuke would've thought things through before trying that.

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Originally Posted by adamrpg View Post
sasuke's clan was killed when he was seven so i dont think he would wait 4 or 5 years to go back to the academy.
He was emotionally broken because of family issues. Everyone needs time to heal heart wounds and Sasuke's was deep.
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Old 2007-06-23, 16:21   Link #39
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Scenario 1: Naruto enters the academy before the others.

Guidelines
  • I will use real year #'s to make it more understandable
  • Assuming only Naruto failed the test
  • The final test taken regardless of time spent in the academy
  • (above stating that it's taken every year)
  • Whereas the test could be different every year

----------------------------------------------------------------
The Situation:
  1. Naruto enters academy 2000
  2. Naruto takes test at the end of 2001(and fails.)
  3. Naruto has failed 1 time
  4. The other 8 Genin-to-be enter academy beginning of 2002
  5. The 8 Genin-to-be have completed one complte year of studying, end of 2002.
  6. Naruto takes test mid-end 2002. Having completed the class again(requiring a shorter amount of time) [like summer school] takes and fails test.
  7. Naruto has taken the test 2 times.
  8. 8 Genin-to-be completed 2 years of studying beginning of 2004.
  9. Naruto takes test mid-end 2003 and fails.
  10. Naruto has taken/failed test 3 times.
  11. So by 2004 he's still in session with the 8 Genin-to-be and takes the test again ( having able to meet the prequisites to take the final test )
  12. All the Genin 9 pass this test. Naruto took it a 4th and Final Time. They all graduate. All have completed an alledged 2 years of studying. And Naruto has been in the class tmie and again, to make up for what he failed.

So in conclusion, they all passed at the same time. Since we know Neji, Tenten, Lee, passed a year prior, having entered 2001. It ends correctly.

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()

Scenario 2: Genin 9 enter academy at same time, promoted to Genin same time..

Guidelines
  • Assuming you only had to pass once to eventually get promoted to Genin
  • Using the fact that all of them atleast passed the one right before they become Genin
  • Showing that there was a test per term. Required 2 or(however many years) of studying/class
  • Anyone in that class but the Genin 9 failed.


----------------------------------------------------------------

The Situation:
  1. Genin 9 enter academy 2000
  2. They take test June, 2000, Naruto fails, (whatever u want to everyone else)
  3. They take test January, 2001, Naruto fails, (whatever u want to everyone else)
  4. Genin 9 completed 1 year studying period
  5. They have taken 2 final tests, per half year term.
  6. So per year 2 tests, 1 per half-year term.
  7. June 2001 they take a test, Naruto fails, (whatever to everyone else)
  8. Late 2001, Early 2002 , they take a test, everyone passes. They were all able to become Genin, since they completed 2 years. They all atleast passed.
  9. Naruto failed 3 times. And passed the final time.
  10. They all became Genin at the same time.

In Conclusion, Naruto fails 3 times, served same amount of time as everyone else, is same age, They all genin at same time. Applying to Lee, Tenten, and Neji, Passing year prior.

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()

Hope I did well ^^. Point out any mistakes :P
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Old 2007-06-24, 02:06   Link #40
Kyu410
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I believe those to be a good examples of how it went down.

But there could be one extra class that Team Gai went through to pass. You know, probably private class teaching to help them pass before everyone else.

But they still had to attend classes with other genin to balance out the chuunin exams.
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