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Old 2007-06-14, 10:35   Link #1
othafa
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The statues of the Valley of the End

I know that many people suspect that the straight haired statue at the valley of the end was Shodaime, but I have another theory...

We never really get a good look at the eyes, but the hair style could be that of a Hyuuga. Also, it was stated that the sharingan shares its origins with the byakugan. Many people already suspect that the spikey haired individual is an Uchiha, which I tend to agree with based on appearances. I won't go so far as to assume that it is Madara, because that would simply be an insane conclusion with no basis. Also, Kakashi said that Naruto and Sasuke's lives closely paralleled those two. Finally, the reason I don't suspect that it is Shodaime is because he only lived a couple of generations ago, but it seems that this valley had been at legendary status for a long time. Also, the impression given by the role of Hokage is that once they take up its mantle, each Hokage must always think of protecting the village as a whole, ignoring individuals and selfish goals; it doesn't seem to fit that a Hokage would leave the village all the way to the border of the fire country just to hunt down one man. This last part is just speculation based on the tone of the manga, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

Given that information...
I think that those two were brothers, and the Uchiha shown is one of the first. After attaining this new power (possibly through ill gotten means, based on Itachi hinting at "the true purpose of the sharingan") he decided to leave the village to attain more power. His brother, like Naruto with Sasuke and Jiraiya with Orochimaru, tried his hardest to stop him, but failed and was killed (maybe unlocking the first mangekyou). The result was the formation of the Uchiha clan. Over generations, Uchiha's intentions were forgotten or lost to all others but a few clan leaders, and they eventually worked their way back into the folds of the other Konoha nin.

Just a thought, but it seems to fit a little better than it being Shodaime. Its obvious from the number of Hokages and the way each clan contains their secrets (as if they've had more than 4 generations to work on those secrets) that the village of Konoha as a whole was formed relatively recently with respect to the age of individual clans. I just don't think the timeline is right.

Edit: if a mod could change the title to include [manga] it would be much appreciated.
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Old 2007-06-14, 10:51   Link #2
Rahan
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I believe you can edit the title yourself. Just edit your post and change the title.
There a few spoilers in this post, so if the title has not been edited yet, non-manga readers are warned.

Kakashi said the two guys were the ones who built Konoha. (before Madara was mentionned believed, everybody thought the second statue was Nidaime). Shodai is known as the founder of Konoha. One statue looks exactly like Shodai. Do the maths yourself.

And yes, Konoha (and Suna who had the same number of Kage. It's unknown for the others, but it's probably the same) is recent. Most likely all the clans were scattered in the countries (we know the Nara own a forest somewhere and the Uchiha have a weapon supply in an unknown location outside of the village), but the first kages united them to make them all train / work together.
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Old 2007-06-14, 11:21   Link #3
Hunter
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I'm not really convinced we need yet another thread to speculate about who were those men but I will give it a shot at least to have a generic thread where all these speculations can be merged with.
The title doesn't need [Manga] tag, there is no spoiler in the OP nor informations about them in the manga so if one of your speculation requires events yet to happen in the anime, use spoiler tags.
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That being said the statue that looks like Shodai has a Konoha's headband so there goes your theory.
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Old 2007-06-14, 11:39   Link #4
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by othafa
Many people already suspect that the spikey haired individual is an Uchiha, which I tend to agree with based on appearances. I won't go so far as to assume that it is Madara, because that would simply be an insane conclusion with no basis.
Isn't it a little more rash to conclude that the statues are simply two random Uchiha brothers? I think the theory of the second statue being Madara fits nicely. At the beginning of the battle Naruto was on top of Shodaime's head (a symbol of what he will become, Hokage) while Sasuke was on top of the other statue's head who was a apparently a renegade and a symbol of what Sasuke would become. Then there was Kakashi's comparison of Naruto and Sasuke to the statues and the Kyuubi's comparision of Sasuke to Madara. Yep, I can see lots of possible symbolism and foreshadowing there. Just as Shodaime had an Uchiha comrade he was eventually forced to fight against, Naruto also has to fight against his friend who happens to be an Uchiha. Madara could be the Uchiha Shodaime eventually fought at VoTE. Kishi likes to do this alot, repeating history and creating parallels between the new generation of shinobi and the previous ones. It's one of the elements I enjoy about his writing.
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Old 2007-06-14, 12:21   Link #5
othafa
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I never said that it was two uchiha brothers. I said it was two Hyuuga brothers. Uchihas are the bastard offspring of the Hyuugas, not the other way around. Also, I provided several logical reasons behind my answers, whereas the only thing connecting that statue to Madara is "OMG we've heard the name of another Uchiha that must be him!!!!" Just because hes and Uchiha doesn't mean that hes this Uchiha. There is NO basis to back it up at all. Furthermore, this thread isn't to restate the same old theory that we've heard several other times, but to present a new one. This is the last time on this thread that I'll even read a post with the name Madara in it.

@Rahan
Would you mind posting the chapter number where it says that the statues were the founders of Konoha? I don't disbelieve you, but I just finished rereading the pre-ts chapters before I started the thread, and I don't recall reading that. If that is the case, then I'm slightly confused, because that statement would mean that someone who went to all of the effort of founding the village of Konoha would immediately defect from the village...
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Old 2007-06-14, 12:55   Link #6
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by othafa View Post
I never said that it was two uchiha brothers. I said it was two Hyuuga brothers. Uchihas are the bastard offspring of the Hyuugas, not the other way around.
Well you don't make that clear at all.

Quote:
Many people already suspect that the spikey haired individual is an Uchiha, which I tend to agree with based on appearances. I won't go so far as to assume that it is Madara, because that would simply be an insane conclusion with no basis.
Quote:
I think that those two were brothers, and the Uchiha shown is one of the first
Yeah, If you wanted to make in known that these were two Hyuuga brothers and that one of them became the first Uchiha, you should've made it more clear.


Quote:
Also, I provided several logical reasons behind my answers, whereas the only thing connecting that statue to Madara is "OMG we've heard the name of another Uchiha that must be him!!!!" Just because hes and Uchiha doesn't mean that hes this Uchiha. There is NO basis to back it up at all.
Did you read my post? I gave basis for my opinion. And your theory is just speculation really. It that has no more basis than Madara being one of the statues. You just make a lot of loose assumptions. Like it or not, Madara was mentioned in the story for a reason. We have yet to know what that reason it is, but I doubt he was just thrown in as a name by Kishi for kicks. I was just saying that Madara being Shodaime's rival would make sense because Sasuke is Naruto's rival and Kishi likes to link older characters to youger ones. And statues marking the place where Naruto and Sasuke fought visually represents that.

Quote:
Furthermore, this thread isn't to restate the same old theory that we've heard several other times, but to present a new one. This is the last time on this thread that I'll even read a post with the name Madara in it.
Just because you create a thread doesn't mean you can control what people write in it. As long as it's on topic, I can write what I please and the topic is about the the statues at VoTE. What gives you the right to say someone can't mention to Madara? If you're sick of hearing the character's name don't create a thread where you know his name will come up.


Quote:
Would you mind posting the chapter number where it says that the statues were the founders of Konoha? I don't disbelieve you, but I just finished rereading the pre-ts chapters before I started the thread, and I don't recall reading that. If that is the case, then I'm slightly confused, because that statement would mean that someone who went to all of the effort of founding the village of Konoha would immediately defect from the village...
I hope you don't mind me answering that even though your question was directed towards Rahan.

It wasn't said that these two statues were the ones who founded Konoha. But that Konoha was built to mark that battle. This was stated in chp 234 However it is obvious that the right statue is Shodaime, because it looks exactly like him right down to the armour he wears. Meaning that Shodaime went on to found Konoha after that battle.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2007-06-14 at 13:10.
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Old 2007-06-14, 13:13   Link #7
Rahan
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Hmmph.
I had the anime version of the quote in mind but it's different from the manga.

anime (episode 134, 18:25) : "When I watch this river flow, it's as if I am seeing a battle that will carry one for eternity, never once stopping, Just like the fate of the two represented by these statues, they who created Konoha. Naruto and Sasuke, as long as they live..."

manga (chapter 234, pages 12-13) :"It is said that long ago two men fought here. From the scar caused by that fight, the river was formed. If you observe the flow, it continues flowing without ever stopping. To mark that battle, Konoha village was built. The ones who share the fate of these statues... Naruto and Sasuke, your lives are remarkably like theirs"

So the manga version is very vague. Shodai could have made the statues built as a memento of a battle he had with his best friend, or it could be something that happened decades before and he isn't involved at all. At least one of the guy is not involved at all in the creation of Konoha, since the village was built after the battle and I don't think that both guys were alive and best friends after it.

The anime version, however, is cristal clear. It's Shodai and his buddy. Maybe they had notes from Kishimoto who wanted make it clearer, maybe they had not but are right, maybe they totally screwed up.

note : translations provided by A1 for the anime and Inane for the manga.
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Old 2007-06-14, 14:24   Link #8
Mr. Johnny 5
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I think the other guy is probably Madara or Nidaime.
I think Nidaime because Naruto & Sasuke were like brothers while Nidaime was the brother of the Shodai.

Nidaime has long hair aswell and is water specialist....the valley is loaded with water so that makes it possible. Plus he and Shodai created Konoha to what it is today.

Madara is also a possibility because it could've been a brute clan encountered by the Shodai...who probably won the battle and served him (clan leader vs clan leader) a battle to accept the Hokage? We know little about Madara except that he's an Uchiha who is known by the Kyuubi.
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Old 2007-06-14, 17:10   Link #9
othafa
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Sorry about that desert funeral...
Allow me to clarify what I meant.

"I think that those two were brothers, and the Uchiha shown is one of the first"

Meaning that the two people were both born Hyuuga, but the "Uchiha" shown at the valley was the first one to develop a doujutsu that was not Byakugan. You got it right in your assumptions. Also, going back and looking at it I see that you're right about the armor...

I must have either read a different translation or blanked out the part where it says the village was built to mark the battle. When I read it, I got the distinct impression that it was talking about just the statues being built to mark the battle, not the whole village. yThat being said, my theory is totall bunk and I believe you that its Shodaime. Still not convinced about Madara, but now that I'm convinced the battle didn't occur generations prior to Shodaime, Kyuubi's statement does have slightly more relevance (despite the fact that kyuubi is probably immortal, I still wouldn't expect him to make references that have no chance of talking about a recent generation, because I do believe that Kishi mentioned Madara for a reason).

Regarding my control over whats in a thread, you're right, I can't stop you from posting. My point was just that in continuing the thread, I personally would be glossing over anything that mentioned Madara. Thats all moot now, however, since my theory is useless. That makes me sad though, because for the 20 hours or so that I believed in my theory I was looking forward to the eventual possibility that we'd hear more about how the Uchihas branched off from the Hyuugas. I really love that stuff, but now I think its unlikely that we'll get much detail regarding it.
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Old 2007-06-14, 19:03   Link #10
yungz21
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the statue is madara uchiha
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Old 2007-06-15, 01:56   Link #11
amOKchen
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Yes, most people think that including me. But it is still not certain if it is true.
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Old 2007-06-15, 03:03   Link #12
ChojinLocke
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Did kakashi say to the unconscious Naruto something like...was your fate to die here? (not sure about the actual wording of the sentence) Anyways the point im trying to make is that if Kakashi said this then someone died in here... either Shodaime or the other guy (most likely Shodaime) maybe that's why they built the statues to marke the death of the Hokage (also maybe it's not the konoha village per se that was built but rather the spirit of it : the will of fire). Just a guess...
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Old 2007-06-18, 09:12   Link #13
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im pretty sure that the characters are uchiha madara and shodamai. Go look at the part when orochimaru summons the two hokage's and compare the clothing. I beleive it is shodamai.
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Old 2007-06-18, 15:10   Link #14
PROBLEMATIKO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yungz21 View Post
the statue is madara uchiha
Yeah i agree that the dude with the spiky long hair is def Madara Uchiha and the other dude looks almost identical to Shodaime.

...if previous theories that i've heard turn out to be true, then this whole thing about Naruto nd Sasuske sharing parallel paths with the dudes on the statues would make good sense. Because according to this theory that i read about, Madara Uchiha was focused on bein strong nd gaining more power. This is like what Sasuske is going through now. He's on this search to build his strength nd skill to the point where he is strong enough to kill Itachi.

Whereas, Naruto relates to Shodaime in the sense that he puts his friends first and fights for them. He shares this trait of being the protector of his friends, the same way Shodai wanted to protect his village.

You feel me?
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Old 2007-06-18, 15:15   Link #15
ChojinLocke
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Quite possible.
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Old 2007-06-18, 22:06   Link #16
MobiuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Just because you create a thread doesn't mean you can control what people write in it. As long as it's on topic, I can write what I please and the topic is about the the statues at VoTE.
According to Hunter, you can't. Else he will ban you for a week for trolling, whether your post made more sense than the original post or not. Its still trolling if they aren't ready for the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I think the other guy is probably Madara or Nidaime.
I think Nidaime because Naruto & Sasuke were like brothers while Nidaime was the brother of the Shodai.

Nidaime has long hair aswell and is water specialist....the valley is loaded with water so that makes it possible. Plus he and Shodai created Konoha to what it is today.

Madara is also a possibility because it could've been a brute clan encountered by the Shodai...who probably won the battle and served him (clan leader vs clan leader) a battle to accept the Hokage? We know little about Madara except that he's an Uchiha who is known by the Kyuubi.
Hmm.

The two creators of Konoha commemorated in stone? Or .... RANDOM UCHIHA!?
Hm.

Not quite sure which it most likely is.
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Last edited by Hunter; 2007-06-19 at 03:20. Reason: do not double post
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Old 2007-06-19, 00:53   Link #17
Blaine
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Spoiler for Pic of the statues:


Now the statue on the right is shodai, as to who the statue is on the left is hard to say. It sure doesn't look like nidaime to me, and since we dont know what Madara looks like its on speculation that its him.
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Last edited by Hunter; 2007-06-19 at 03:21.
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Old 2007-06-19, 02:42   Link #18
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The back of the hair looks like Sasuke's ie. quite Uchiha-like
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Old 2007-06-19, 04:05   Link #19
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine View Post
Spoiler for Pic of the statues:


Now the statue on the right is shodai, as to who the statue is on the left is hard to say. It sure doesn't look like nidaime to me, and since we dont know what Madara looks like its on speculation that its him.
I know....it's gotta be a saiyan!

No seriously i will try to back up my theory with some (possible facts)
The right person is the Shodai Hokage let's compare them with pictures..
Spoiler for Pic of the statues:


Shodai Hokage
- Naruto was standing on the right person's head the Hokage.
- Naruto WANTS to become hokage.
- Behind the statue there is PLENTY of trees unlike the other statue. (Shodai - Mokuton Jutsu)
- If you would be very specific...there is plenty of life on the right while there isnt much on the other side [L] Revenge & Hatred vs Friendship, Family [R]
- Has a forehead protector
Spoiler:


??? Uchiha Madara
- Both are Uchiha's
- Sasuke has his back turned against Naruto (rebellion against the village)
- THE EXACT same pose as the Shodai Hokage (Sharingan??)
- If you check out Sasuke's hair....it's almost EXACTLY the same only it's longer then Sasuke (coincidence? direct ancestor?)
- BOTH NO forhead protectors (on their foreheads...Sasuke left his behind)
- The Kyuubi mentioned him and has looked into the eyes of an Uchiha he callled them cursed (Madara was a bad guy )
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Last edited by Hunter; 2007-06-19 at 04:49. Reason: do NOT forget spoiler tag
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Old 2007-06-19, 13:03   Link #20
MobiuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I know....it's gotta be a saiyan!

No seriously i will try to back up my theory with some (possible facts)
??? Uchiha Madara
- Both are Uchiha's ( Fact. but who says the statue is that of an uchiha?)
- Sasuke has his back turned against Naruto (rebellion against the village) (Fiction. Did it ever say Madara turned against Konoha or his friends? )
- THE EXACT same pose as the Shodai Hokage (Sharingan??) (Fiction. Do I have to have the sharingan to mimic your stance? Even more importantly ... isn't that up to the guy who carved the statues? Is it necessarily what happened? )
- If you check out Sasuke's hair....it's almost EXACTLY the same only it's longer then Sasuke (coincidence? direct ancestor?) (Fiction. Naruto and the 4th and Tobi have pretty much the same hairstyle. All related? )
- BOTH NO forhead protectors (on their foreheads...Sasuke left his behind) (Fact. How does that make it an Uchiha statue? Some people wear their forehead protectors in weird places. Rock Lee uses it as a belt. Who says it isn't the strap for holding up the armor? )
- The Kyuubi mentioned him and has looked into the eyes of an Uchiha he callled them cursed (Madara was a bad guy ) (Fact. How is this a reference to the statue though? )
Just shedding a little light on your theory there ...
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