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Old 2007-06-24, 22:13   Link #1
Siege
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[Anime]Rock Lee Newly Aqquired Ability To Stand On Water

Now recently the meaning the last couple or three shippuuden episodes have confused me because it's shown lee STANDING on water much like naruto learned to do with his chakra and the reason i'm cofused is that rock lee doesn't have any chakra or thats what i've been lead to believe and yes you can argue that in the time skip perhaps he's found some way of using his chakra but i'm sure if he could he would have learned it like the others in the academy.

But this is annoying and very frustrating i was going to say discuss but i think a very lack way of veiwing lee sudden and spontainous use of his chakra and wether he can now in fact use Jutsu or not

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Old 2007-06-25, 01:26   Link #2
BlackShinobi07
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Lee does have chakra, he just can't mold it like the others to perform any jutsus.

He walks on water by releasing a steady and consistent amount of chakra from his feet.
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Old 2007-06-25, 01:28   Link #3
amOKchen
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Waterwalk is supposed to require a high skill of chakra control though :/
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Old 2007-06-25, 01:33   Link #4
Ziv
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chakra control != chakra molding

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-06-25 at 14:44. Reason: No link with licensed material
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Old 2007-06-25, 01:53   Link #5
amOKchen
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"For our last example, we have rock lee, an elite Taijutsu user. Since Rock Lee has absolutely no need to convert stamina into Chakra, he can just perform his techniques without concentrating into conversion. This gives Taijutsu users an edge, because they do not have to mold up their Chakra in order to attack."
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Old 2007-06-26, 11:05   Link #6
yungz21
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lee has chakra and can use jutsu if he wanted to its just that as a kid he had no skill towards using justu so he focused all his time on taijutsu anyone in the naruto universe can walk on water it just requires chakra control
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Old 2007-06-26, 12:40   Link #7
othafa
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Theres a difference between using chakra and molding it. When lee fights, he directly uses his raw chakra, or stamina, to enhance everything that he does. This is evidenced when he caught Sasuke's leg before the chuunin exam and Sasuke comments about the level of chakra in his hand. Water walking and tree climbing are just other uses for stamina, and it takes a good deal of control with that raw chakra to perform those actions.

What lee is incapable of doing is converting, or molding, his chakra. Hand seals are required because they take raw chakra and convert it to specific variations on chakra to perform special acts. Since lee cannot do this conversion, the only use he has for his raw chakra (stamina) is taijutsu.

For reference about the chakra vs. stamina thing, see the manga chapter where Naruto asks Kakashi to train him before the Chuunin exam finals. Its also important to note that whenever chakra or stamina are compared, two different words are used. However, in most other circumstances that talk about using either of them, only the word "chakra" is used, and its applied as a catch-all. The exception is when they're talking about how much total chakra capacity someone has, then they talk about "stamina".

Try not to get caugh up on the verbage though. The bottom line is that to do crazy things with chakra like make fire or illusions, you need to have the ability to convert it. However, just gathering chakra or releasing it in various parts of the body does not require this conversion, which means that lee is capable of doing it.
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Old 2007-06-26, 13:38   Link #8
Siege
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I 'd like to point out my ignorance but i think he must have aquired or learned to release chakra though his feet after the final filler segment of the Original series because when he and sakura fall into the water lee has alot of problems staying afloat and can't stand on the water at this point so how is he able to do it now..

also theres a few other continuity errors but this being naruto most of them can be explained as oh it's part of a Jutsu or some skill,

but lee's is very odd and has anyone noticed that Neji's Byakugan still hasn't shown any improvement over what it was at the end of the original
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Old 2007-06-26, 13:42   Link #9
othafa
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@ the neji comment...
Did you see the range? It seems to me that its drastically improved.

@ the filler comment...
Its filler. No inconsistencies can possibly be introduced as a result of filler anime episodes because nobody cares. Its certainly not cannon, and Kishi had little or no say about what went into filler episodes.
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Old 2007-06-26, 14:37   Link #10
Mr. Johnny 5
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Yes Lee can walk on water. I recently made a post about it in the anime thread.
I will explain things again.

According to Kakashi (Zabuza Arc) he trained Team 7 to walk on the trees.
He said in theory if they mastered that they should be able to master any jutsu (in theory). Walking on water is actually even harder and is another step of chakra control.

I believe molding chakra to your feet is required. To walk on water or trees. And that is the hardest spot. So i think Lee should be able to disspel genjutsu or use atleast bunshin no jutsu by now.
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Old 2007-06-26, 14:42   Link #11
othafa
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Molding chakra requires hand seals. He just draws raw chakra to his feet and releases it continuously. No molding required. Also, dispelling genjutsu sounds like its within his realm of capability, since its just another level of chakra control, but bunshin isn't, since he can't mold chakra.
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Old 2007-06-26, 15:43   Link #12
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by othafa View Post
Molding chakra requires hand seals. He just draws raw chakra to his feet and releases it continuously. No molding required. Also, dispelling genjutsu sounds like its within his realm of capability, since its just another level of chakra control, but bunshin isn't, since he can't mold chakra.
I am 100% certain that everyone from Team 7 where molding chakra to their feet.
They were in a deep concentration to do that. Obviously because they became good at controlling their chakra....they didnt have to do it later on anymore.
Same as Kakashi/Sasuke using chidori. I think Lee is capable of more things.

Probably and hopefully when he gets in a pinch he'll suddenly use: Kage Bunshin No Jutsu
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Old 2007-06-26, 16:50   Link #13
Ero-Senn1n
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Gai can also use jutsu, and Lee will surely have some. It's just that he will be like Naruto was in the beginning: using too much chakra for the jutsu, so he will use his taijutsu skills instead of ninjutsu. Or use some combination like Gai used against Kisame. Gai used fire, maybe Lee will use other element. One thing is sure: he will surpass his sensei. The question should be which ninjutsu should he use as an aid for his taijutsu-based fights.
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Old 2007-06-27, 06:55   Link #14
othafa
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Go back and read it johnny. They were moving and releasing chakra, but the word "molding" was never used because molding chakra requires hand seals. "Molding" is the term used for converting stamina to different variations of chakra. This was just releasing stamina.

edit: and when I talk about hand seals, I obviously mean the zodiac seals, not the common one that everyone does just to maintain their concentration. That one is done whenever people just gather raw chakra, such as when sakura charged against ino or when naruto used the kyubi's stamina to reawaken his circulatory system. Its not actually a seal, its just a concentration mechanism.

Last edited by othafa; 2007-06-27 at 07:26.
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Old 2007-06-27, 08:53   Link #15
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Gai can also use jutsu, and Lee will surely have some. It's just that he will be like Naruto was in the beginning: using too much chakra for the jutsu, so he will use his taijutsu skills instead of ninjutsu. Or use some combination like Gai used against Kisame. Gai used fire, maybe Lee will use other element. One thing is sure: he will surpass his sensei. The question should be which ninjutsu should he use as an aid for his taijutsu-based fights.

Lee won't ever use ninjutsu because his entire dream is built around becoming a great ninja using only taijutsu. He appears to have stopped training in everything else except taijutsu.

Like said othafa said, though it was never directly explained, Lee's problem is probably that he cannot properly mold his chakra with handseals. This is similar to the problem Naruto had. When Naruto gathered chakra he molded it incorrectly and ended up wasting nearly all his chakra performing the jutsu. Something like around 10% of Naruto's gathered chakra went into the justu while the other 90% was wasted. Even when he learned to climb trees and walk on water, this was still a problem for him (he could barely summon a tadpole after learning kuchiyose). The only reason Naruto could perform jutsu at all is because his stamina is huge and he can call upon the kyuubi beyond that. Lee doesn't have this ability. When he tries to perform jutsu so much chakra is probably wasted that the jutsu won't activate at all.
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Old 2007-06-27, 10:23   Link #16
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by othafa View Post
Go back and read it johnny. They were moving and releasing chakra, but the word "molding" was never used because molding chakra requires hand seals. "Molding" is the term used for converting stamina to different variations of chakra. This was just releasing stamina.
Actually, to Have chakra flowing in the Body, Molding is needed, Molding is the process of Creating the correct amount of Chakra from your Stamina, what dictates what that’s Chakra is for, is the Chakra control, this is explained by Ebisu to Naruto.

Both Walking on Water and Walking on trees needs chakra, and as explained by Ebisu, this Chakra needs to be molded, Lee Already was capable of Molding chakra since he was a genin, as this is the reason why He could stop Sasukes and the other Chunin Kick, and how he could grab that tree branch out of the ground.

What it was said about Lee has to do with no talent with Genjutsu and Ninjutsu, and I could be because something that can't be said here because this is an Anime thread.


On a side note, this is an ANIME only thread, so for the sake of Debate, Fillers are canon.
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Old 2007-06-27, 10:28   Link #17
othafa
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Actually, you also need to go back and read now. It is stated that taijutsu is unique as a ninja art explicitly because it does not require molding, but instead transfers the stamina directly to various parts of the body. Molding is limited to the conversion of stamina to various kinds of chakra for various purposes, but the water walking and tree climbing and running faster and ripping up trees doesn't require thie conversion.

Edit: and fillers are never cannon, anime only only means that we can't spoil anything from the manga, not even in spoilers. Forum rules don't dictate what Kishimoto did and did not have a say in.
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Old 2007-06-27, 10:51   Link #18
Rurik
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Originally Posted by othafa View Post
Molding is limited to the conversion of stamina to various kinds of chakra for various purposes, but the water walking and tree climbing and running faster and ripping up trees doesn't require thie conversion.
Read the Manga, Ebisu explanation made it clear, both the walking on water and tree climbing requires Chakra to be molded, also running faster, and various things that you take fro granted.

The body just does not start out with Chakra to be used, for this chakra to be used; you need to convert this Chakra from the Stamina. If you want to understand more, read very carefully chapter 90. Basically what you are talking about is Chakra control, not Chakra molding

Quote:
Edit: and fillers are never cannon, anime only only means that we can't spoil anything from the manga, not even in spoilers. Forum rules don't dictate what Kishimoto did and did not have a say in.
What I’m saying is the Manga readers can’t say an Anime viewer is wrong because he used a Filler to prove a point, because Anime only threads are directed more for people that Don’t read Manga and are 100% Anime, what you can do is use Manga material to show the Anime viewer Kishimto’s idea on the matter.
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Old 2007-06-27, 10:59   Link #19
othafa
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I did read the manga. Ebisu never used the word "molded" in that explaination. All the other stuff after that is based on your flawed premise, so I'll ignore it.

About the anime only thing, its not my fault that other people choose to remain ignorant, and no amount of ignorance on anyone else's part is going to convince most manga readers that the filler arcs were cannon. Filler can't prove points because Kishi didn't write it. Its like comparing apples to dumptrucks (apples to oranges never made sense to me, since their both fruit).
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Old 2007-06-27, 11:00   Link #20
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by othafa View Post
Actually, you also need to go back and read now. It is stated that taijutsu is unique as a ninja art explicitly because it does not require molding, but instead transfers the stamina directly to various parts of the body. Molding is limited to the conversion of stamina to various kinds of chakra for various purposes, but the water walking and tree climbing and running faster and ripping up trees doesn't require thie conversion.

Edit: and fillers are never cannon, anime only only means that we can't spoil anything from the manga, not even in spoilers. Forum rules don't dictate what Kishimoto did and did not have a say in.

It's just a confusion of terminology. The act of mixing physical energy and spiritual energy from stamina to create chakra is the correct use of the term "molding". That comes from Sakura's explanation. The handseals determine the ninjutsu that is activated as well as the amount of chakra that goes into the jutsu, if someone fails at this part a large amount of chakra will be wasted and the jutsu might not work. Most people including myself tend to take the whole process of mixing chakra, gathering it and using handseals as "molding", but technically it is just the mixing part. Really, I don't think you or Rurik are wrong here.
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