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Old 2007-07-05, 15:19   Link #81
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatami
ok tell me what happened after sasuke cut orochimaru 2-3 pieces?
So here's what I don't understand. Whenever someone suggests that Sasuke might actually be stronger than Oro, they argue that Oro paralyzed Sasuke and could've killed him and therefore can still be considered superior.

Yet people try to use the exact opposite argument to claim that Itachi is weaker than Oro because he resorted to genjutsu to paralyze him. So which is it? Does being able to paralyze your opponent mean you are stronger than them? Or does it mean you simply have no other way to match your opponent? It can be argued either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Lastly, Oro didn't lose at full strength, because of Sasuke's sneaky attack (just like the one Tsunade used on Jiraiya), Oro was weaker compared to his original self, at the beginning of that fight. Despite that, he was still stronger than Sasuke, when you compare the overall strengths.
What are you basing that on? What talents are you comparing? Sasuke has obviously become the superior genjutsu user but how can you compare the ninjutsu and taijutsu skills of Oro and Sasuke post-timeskip? They have not fought each other at full strength and they haven't fought the same enemies. Sure, Oro was sick but what proves that at full health he was stronger than Sasuke?

I think it can be said that there's a possibility Oro was still stronger than Sasuke before he was defeated. But there's not significant evidence to back it up.
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Old 2007-07-05, 15:26   Link #82
RRavage
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nice looks like another akatsuki going down...never liked deidara much because hes nothing too special than bombing around..I mean hidan has secrets about his clan even when hes dead and keeping the thing mystery..but deidara is nothing, just gifted bloodline waiting to get pwnd.Still what the hell there are only 6 akatsuki left all in a sudden...next is probably kisame or zetsu
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Old 2007-07-05, 15:27   Link #83
epyon96
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Sasuke was only stronger in the area of genjutsu - thanks to Sharingan -, as that is also the reason why Oro lost.

However, in terms of overall strength Oro was the stronger one. Even after using paralyzing poison on Sasuke, Oro had the chance to kill Sasuke, but he didn't. Doesn't mean he couldn't, only that he chose to not kill him. Also, till that point it was Sasuke who was trying to kill Oro but couldn't succeed in doing so. And it was Oro who was trying to avoid killing Sasuke.

Lastly, Oro didn't lose at full strength, because of Sasuke's sneaky attack (just like the one Tsunade used on Jiraiya), Oro was weaker compared to his original self, at the beginning of that fight. Despite that, he was still stronger than Sasuke, when you compare the overall strengths.
This definition of "overall" strength is rather strange. Even though Sasuke won the fight, effectively terminated Orochimaru as a threat when he tried to do the ultimate body switching move, Orochimaru (as claimed by you) is the stronger of the two.

Your other claim about how Orochimaru had the opportunity to kill Sasuke after releasing the poison is also flawed. This can easily degenerate into a, "since Orochimaru didn't actually do anything at the opportune time, you never know what will happen."

To avoid that, let's look at it this way, Sasuke at any point could've trapped Orochimaru in another genjutsu with the seemingly invincible Sharingan even if his movements are disabled. Take what you want from the fight. But ultimately Sasuke won. Therefore, it is quite safe to deduce that Sasuke seemed to be the stronger of the two at that point in time.

Trying to construct an "overall" strength card seems rather pointless. Because ultimately strength needs to be defined as being able to defeat another opponent.
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Old 2007-07-05, 15:39   Link #84
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
So here's what I don't understand. Whenever someone suggests that Sasuke might actually be stronger than Oro, they argue that Oro paralyzed Sasuke and could've killed him and therefore can still be considered superior.

Yet people try to use the exact opposite argument to claim that Itachi is weaker than Oro because he resorted to genjutsu to paralyze him. So which is it? Does being able to paralyze your opponent mean you are stronger than them? Or does it mean you simply have no other way to match your opponent? It can be argued either way.
Interesting, I have never seen someone using Itachi paralyzing Oro argument to say Itachi is weaker. Unlesd you are trying to create a false argument, you must be mistaken.
Quote:
What are you basing that on? What talents are you comparing? Sasuke has obviously become the superior genjutsu user but how can you compare the ninjutsu and taijutsu skills of Oro and Sasuke post-timeskip? They have not fought each other at full strength and they haven't fought the same enemies. Sure, Oro was sick but what proves that at full health he was stronger than Sasuke?
I am basing on what I saw. Sasuke couldn't kill Oro using his ninjutsu skills. Period. And, don't expect, a ninja to display all he knows in a single fight. Oro captured Sasuke, with no goal of killing him. If Oro had tried to extend his sword the fight would have been over long time ago.

By the way, if you want to falsify our argument, you should start by not talking about Sasuke being the superior genjutsu user. How many genjutsu skills you have observed to decide on the winner? Even the genjutsu fight we observed is not a typical genjutsu fight. Still, you can easily claim one side to be superior. Just like how we claim who has the better overall strength.

Also, Oro was both sick and he was not in a proper body to utilize all his skills. Despite that, he cornered Sasuke to do what he planned to do.
Quote:
I think it can be said that there's a possibility Oro was still stronger than Sasuke before he was defeated. But there's not significant evidence to back it up.
How the fight progressed is good enough reason. Even, Sasuke's sneaky tactics to weaken Oro before killing him, can be used against Sasuke. Oro has not fought against Sasuke seriously to kill Sasuke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epyon96 View Post
This definition of "overall" strength is rather strange. Even though Sasuke won the fight, effectively terminated Orochimaru as a threat when he tried to do the ultimate body switching move, Orochimaru (as claimed by you) is the stronger of the two.
A fight only in the genjutsu world, and a fight Oro chose to not kill Sasuke...Yes, the result is not representative of overall strength.
Quote:
Your other claim about how Orochimaru had the opportunity to kill Sasuke after releasing the poison is also flawed. This can easily degenerate into a, "since Orochimaru didn't actually do anything at the opportune time, you never know what will happen."
Well, I never said there wasn't any flaw. For me, the events that lead to that fight and result of that fight is faulty, to begin with. But, that is not the point here. Oro chose to not fight with the intent to kill his opponent, whereas Sasuke chose to fight with the intent the kill. And, that is a serious holding back for Oro.
Quote:
To avoid that, let's look at it this way, Sasuke at any point could've trapped Orochimaru in another genjutsu with the seemingly invincible Sharingan even if his movements are disabled. Take what you want from the fight. But ultimately Sasuke won. Therefore, it is quite safe to deduce that Sasuke seemed to be the stronger of the two at that point in time.
Sasuke didn't do that, and maybe couldn't do that. But, Oro did capture Sasuke, but stopped there. It is like beating your opponent and your opponent falling to the ground, after that, even though you can use your skills to finish your opponent, you wait for him to stand up.

And, sorry, I don't only look at only the result to say who is the stronger - regarding the overall strength, especially, if it is not a fight to death for both sides.
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Trying to construct an "overall" strength card seems rather pointless.
Yes, it obviously seems pointless for you...

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2007-07-05 at 15:49.
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Old 2007-07-05, 15:53   Link #85
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Interesting, I have never seen someone using Itachi paralyzing Oro argument to say Itachi is weaker. Unlesd you are trying to create a false argument, you must be mistaken.
He said exactly the opposite.
Some people are saying Itachi isn't stonger than Oro because he only paralyzed him with the Sharingan. The same people are saying Oro is stronger than Sasuke because he paralyzed him.
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Old 2007-07-05, 15:53   Link #86
epyon96
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Also, Oro was both sick and he was not in a proper body to utilize all his skills. Despite that, he cornered Sasuke to do what he planned to do.
But he failed. That's where the "Sasuke is stronger" argument stems from. Again, why do you even bother to bring up the excuse that Orochimaru's body is damaged? It does not matter because the argument is at that point in time, Sasuke seems stronger of the two.

About your argument that if he extended the sword, Sasuke would be dead. There is no way you can prove that. Sasuke has escaped seemingly C4 death in the current Deidaria fight so I see little reason why he can't all of a sudden pull a "bushin" out of the air when the sword connects. But you can speculate what you want in that region because that is all it is: speculation.
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:01   Link #87
cheese4u
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Interesting, I have never seen someone using Itachi paralyzing Oro argument to say Itachi is weaker. Unlesd you are trying to create a false argument, you must be mistaken.
I am basing on what I saw. Sasuke couldn't kill Oro using his ninjutsu skills. Period. And, don't expect, a ninja to display all he knows in a single fight. Oro captured Sasuke, with no goal of killing him. If Oro had tried to extend his sword the fight would have been over long time ago.

By the way, if you want to falsify our argument, you should start by not talking about Sasuke being the superior genjutsu user. How many genjutsu skills you have observed to decide on the winner? Even the genjutsu fight we observed is not a typical genjutsu fight. Still, you can easily claim one side to be superior. Just like how we claim who has the better overall strength.

Also, Oro was both sick and he was not in a proper body to utilize all his skills. Despite that, he cornered Sasuke to do what he planned to do.
How the fight progressed is good enough reason. Even, Sasuke's sneaky tactics to weaken Oro before killing him, can be used against Sasuke. Oro has not fought against Sasuke seriously to kill Sasuke.

A fight only in the genjutsu world, and a fight Oro chose to not kill Sasuke...Yes, the result is not representative of overall strength.
Well, I never said there wasn't any flaw. For me, the events that lead to that fight and result of that fight is faulty, to begin with. But, that is not the point here. Oro chose to not fight with the intent to kill his opponent, whereas Sasuke chose to fight with the intent the kill. And, that is a serious holding back for Oro.
Sasuke didn't do that, and maybe couldn't do that. But, Oro did capture Sasuke, but stopped there. It is like beating your opponent and your opponent falling to the ground, after that, even though you can use your skills to finish your opponent, you wait for him to stand up.

And, sorry, I don't only look at only the result to say who is the stronger - regarding the overall strength, especially, if it is not a fight to death for both sides.
Yes, it obviously seems pointless for you...
Nothing has suggested that Oro is stronger than Sasuke, on the contrary everything has pointed towards the opposite. An uber-kage such as Orochimaru against any other opponent should be able to sense when he's in danger of being killed, especially considering that HE TRAINED SASUKE HIMSELF AND SHOULD KNOW HIS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES FOR THE MOST PART. Every two opposing sides has different motives and different objectives during battle, you can't use that as an excuse. For right now Sasuke is stronger than Oro, if there was to be any proof that he was the strongest than he should've won which he didn't. And also the end result of the battle is further proof that he was stronger. Oro (for the most part) died in this battle, where as Sasuke walked away just fine, to me that says it all.
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:08   Link #88
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
He said exactly the opposite.
Some people are saying Itachi isn't stonger than Oro because he only paralyzed him with the Sharingan. The same people are saying Oro is stronger than Sasuke because he paralyzed him.
His emphasis was stronger. He said, Itachi is weaker than Oro, because of genjutsu. I don't really see any logical reasoning to even suggest that. At best, you can say, the result doesn't say something definite, cause, Itachi-Oro case didn't even seem to be a fight to begin with, where one side tries to kill the other. For me, the cases are different, the setup is different, so the approach should also be different.
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Nothing has suggested that Oro is stronger than Sasuke, on the contrary everything has pointed towards the opposite.
Nothing? Even getting caught by Oro's posion, and Oro not doing anything to finish Sasuke. Great!
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Every two opposing sides has different motives and different objectives during battle, you can't use that as an excuse.
I can definitely use that excuse. If Kakuzu, Sasori, and Hidan would have approached differently to their last fights, those wouldn't be their last. Oro, who has used his sword in all of his previous fights, with no need for his original body, wouldn't even tried to use that. It just shows how serious(!) he was in his fight.
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For right now Sasuke is stronger than Oro, if there was to be any proof that he was the strongest than he should've won which he didn't.
Really. I bet Kakuzu is weaker than Naruto because he lost in that fight. And, yes, Hidan should also be weaker than Shikamaru. Expecting other great comments!
Quote:
And also the end result of the battle is further proof that he was stronger. Oro (for the most part) died in this battle, where as Sasuke walked away just fine, to me that says it all.
Just what I needed!
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:18   Link #89
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
He said exactly the opposite.
Some people are saying Itachi isn't stonger than Oro because he only paralyzed him with the Sharingan. The same people are saying Oro is stronger than Sasuke because he paralyzed him.
They were saying the same thing. Only the wording is different.

"Itachi isn't stronger.." = "...Itachi is weaker."
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:20   Link #90
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Vindi89 View Post
They were saying the same thing. Only the wording is different.

"Itachi isn't stronger.." = "...Itachi is weaker."
Just a note, those cases do not have to refer the same thing. The first can also be used to suggest the result is not obvious, meaning, it doesn't automatically say one is stronger. However, the second does not even allow that.
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:22   Link #91
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
His emphasis was stronger. He said, Itachi is weaker than Oro, because of genjutsu. I don't really see any logical reasoning to even suggest that. At best, you can say, the result doesn't say something definite, cause, Itachi-Oro case didn't even seem to be a fight to begin with, where one side tries to kill the other. For me, the cases are different, the setup is different, so the approach should also be different.
No he said people "claim" Itachi was weaker because of the paralyzing thing. His point was the exact opposite.

Anyway I didn't mean to comment on the Sasuke/Oro argument, my personal opinion at this point is rather simple : we don't know how Oro at full power with killing intent would fare against Sasuke and vice versa. We don't exactly know how Oro in snake form could have done if he wanted Sasuke dead, he obviously wasn't as powerful but his poison was deadly enough to turn the table.
Technically I'm ready to believe that Sasuke could have beaten Oro at full power for one and sole reason : he has just shown he can use the same kind of Sharingan Genjutsu than his brother (and at long range at that which is just broken) which was enough to stop Oro to do anything against Itachi.
But that being said there is one big difference : while Sasuke uses this as a last resort Itachi uses this kind of jutsu at his first line of defense. It seems more plotwise than technical reason but the difference exist and show a real difference of power.


On a side note, do you remember what you answered to me when we discussed about Oro's body rejecting his soul when he fought 4T Naruto? I find it rather ironic given your current answer about the strength of Oro against Sasuke ^^
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:23   Link #92
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Just a note, those cases do not have to refer the same thing. The first can also be used to suggest the result is not obvious, meaning, it doesn't automatically say one is stronger. However, the second does not even allow that.
Well in this case they are referring to the same thing. The only other thing the first statement will 'allow' is 'they are equal'.

Edit: And to add to the discussion:

It is my personal opinion that in Orichimaru's 'weakened' state Sasuke was the stronger of the 2. If that fight would have happened when Oro was on his average game, I think the results would have been different. Also as others have pointed out he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. This is an important considerations seeing as both Naruto and Gaara have lost key fights to this. (naruto vs Sasuke + Gaara vs Deidara).
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:32   Link #93
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MY GOD! Can you people talk about the damn chapter at hand! Or nothing at all.
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:32   Link #94
Sazelyt
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Technically I'm ready to believe that Sasuke could have beaten Oro at full power for one and sole reason : he has just shown he can use the same kind of Sharingan Genjutsu than his brother (and at long range at that which is just broken) which was enough to stop Oro to do anything against Itachi.
But that being said there is one big difference : while Sasuke uses this as a last resort Itachi uses this kind of jutsu at his first line of defense. It seems more of of a plotwise than technical but the difference exist and show a real difference of power.
It has never been intended to be a real fight, with Sasuke's sneaky attack, when Oro was obviously ill. You can also say that, if that would be a real fight to death, Oro would have taken every measure to avoid Sharingan. In his fight, (even though I do not consider this to be the case, since you may bring it later on), his main way of obtaining Sasuke's body seemed to require going through the genjutsu world. So, he chose to fight Sharingan at that world, rather than intelligently avoiding it. For me, that can be considered as a big turning point for a fight.

Anyway, even in that fight, in that physical state, when he was avoiding to hurt Sasuke's body, he obtained the chance to get rid of Sasuke. He had the means to do that, and the easiest one was the Kusanagi sword that follows his will. But, he "chose" to not do that, not that he was forced to not do that.
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On a side note, do you remember what you answered to me when we discussed about Oro's body rejecting his soul when he fought 4T Naruto? I find it rather ironic given your current answer about the strength of Oro against Sasuke ^^
No, I don't remember. Still, the Oro at that time, was different than the current Oro. He had his body, regardless of the problems of rejecting. And, I guess, he can be considered to be more powerful than the Oro we saw the last time. Mainly because, he could have leaved the body, if he wanted, in addition to being able to do what he can do more effectively with the human body.
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Old 2007-07-05, 16:51   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Really. I bet Kakuzu is weaker than Naruto because he lost in that fight. And, yes, Hidan should also be weaker than Shikamaru. Expecting other great comments!
Hidan was weaker than Shikamaru. Once Hidan's jutsu was figured out, Shikamaru could pretty much do what he wanted with him. He could get the kage mane on Hidan anytime he wanted. It turned out to be a total mismatch. A guy with a god-like IQ and improved shadow techniques vs. an idiot.

I guess the question with Kakuzu vs. Naruto is what would have happened if Kakuzu was at full strength. The thing is, Naruto would still have had the bigger gun. The FRS would still have trumped anything Kakuzu had.

Naruto always had the advantage. Unfortunately for Naruto, he still needed to get saved by Yamato because he's a klutz and a poor ninja.

Back to the chapter. I just saw this.

Spoiler:

Doesn't make any sense. Might have just been a fake to go with the spoiler pic.
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Old 2007-07-05, 17:01   Link #96
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this battle has gone on long enough sasuke if your going to kill him then do and hurry up already
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Old 2007-07-05, 17:03   Link #97
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Hidan was weaker than Shikamaru. Once Hidan's jutsu was figured out, Shikamaru could pretty much do what he wanted with him. He could get the kage mane on Hidan anytime he wanted. It turned out to be a total mismatch. A guy with a god-like IQ and improved shadow techniques vs. an idiot.
Shikamaru did what he could because he planned and prepared everything beforehand. If the location would have changed, what he did wouldn't have worked. Shikamaru won, but thanks to many things coming together at the same time, which might have a very low probability of another repeat performance. And, in such case, it is really unjust to claim that side as being the stronger, especially if you are talking about in general.
Quote:
I guess the question with Kakuzu vs. Naruto is what would have happened if Kakuzu was at full strength. The thing is, Naruto would still have had the bigger gun. The FRS would still have trumped anything Kakuzu had.
Naruto would have died in his first attack, if Kakashi and Yamato wouldn't have helped him. The difference between the strength of jutsus does not automatically represent the difference between the overall strengths. Naruto maybe has the most powerful technique a ninja can have in short range (and possibly mid range, when it is finished), but he was still the weaker one compared to Kakuzu.
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Old 2007-07-05, 17:17   Link #98
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
The only thing that gets me, is that it seems that the famous Naruto circle has risen with yet another character.

First it was:

Lee stronger than Naruto
Neji stronger than Lee
then Naruto stronger than Neji.

Then it was: (roughly)
Oro stronger than Jiraiya
Itachi stronger than Oro
Jiraiya stronger than Itachi

Now if Sasuke loses then its going to be:
Sasori stronger than Deidara
Oro stronger than Sasori
Sasuke stronger than Oro
Deidara stronger than Sasuke

Of course, all of these can be explained but still it would be nice to have a better idea of characters and there strengths.


You gotta be kidding me, it doesn't work out like that, some peoples strengths are some peoples weakness's so itachi could be strong against one person but weak against the another, elements and techniques.
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Old 2007-07-05, 17:31   Link #99
Ero-Senn1n
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This Oro vs Sasuke who is stronger argument is stupid. Just imagine if Oro would summon Yondaime and Sandaime hokage to fight against Sasuke. We know Oro can do it if he has prepared for the fight. There are countless possibilities to how a fight between two ninja can go, and the mangaka will write a version which is good for the story of the main characters. So if a side character like Oro has to die in order for Sasuke to move on than Oro will be killed, regardeless of who is considered to be stronger.

The very base of strength calculations is something that cannot be measured: we have taijutsu, genjutsu and ninjutsu as totally different abilities. So these 3 abilities can be used as a rock-paper-scissors game, any way the mangaka wishes. For example Deidara explodes Sasuke before he has time to make a genjutsu: we have ninjutsu > genjutsu. However Sasuke with his body flicker approaches Deidara and cuts him before Deidara makes bombs: taijutsu > ninjutsu. Or Kakashi uses a sharingan genjutsu on Kakuzu before he makes elemental moves: genjutsu > ninjutsu. Lee relesases 7 gates and kills Sasuke before he can cast a genjutsu, by using Gai's not-look-into-eyes ability: taijutsu > ganjutsu. The writer may chose any outcome he wants, and it's really pointless to compare people based on such a fight.

We should compare the 3 kind of abilities to the same kind of abilities when comparing 2 ninja. So for example Sasuke has better taijutsu and better genjutsu than Oro has, while Oro has better ninjutsu than Sasuke. In the final Oro-Sasuke fight Oro could not use his ninjutsu because he could not make hand seals, so he was beaten. And it was Oro's fault to have reduced himself to such a state where he was a monster which couldn't make hand seals.
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Old 2007-07-05, 18:02   Link #100
cheese4u
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Originally Posted by Icecolduchiha View Post
You gotta be kidding me, it doesn't work out like that, some peoples strengths are some peoples weakness's so itachi could be strong against one person but weak against the another, elements and techniques.
I'm well aware of that, in fact I've argued that same case on other threads. I was just pointing out the way the manga/anime was progressing.
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