Ookami to Koushinryou (Spice and Wolf) Generic Discussion

[mandarb916]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Lawrence's choice in cargo, in general, shows that he's probably smart enough to not be tricked by that. He carries products that are sure to sell: salt, furs, etc. They won't bring in as much money as certain higher-risk items, but he can also guarantee that they won't go bad enroute, and that he WILL be able to sell them, wherever he may end up.

Well, he also mentioned that it took years to learn what Horo already knew; the lie in and of itself isn't important, rather that the reason behind the lie is what's critical. After that, he mentioned he would go along with it anyways to figure out what Zerin was up to.

The reason he carries those items, i thought, was to basically stay away from keeping actual cash on himself during his travels (ie. prevent as much monetary loss as possible).

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by monir

I'm in the minority as well. I think the reason this episode doesn't have that bam like episode 1 is because of the absence of Chloe. I admit I'm worried also, but the length of the show gives me hope and helps me to retain my confidence that it will have a compact and flowing storyline that leads to somewhere.

The great thing about this show so far is Horo and the setting. I don't expect a "compact and flowing storyline" any time soon. I expect we'll have to enjoy Horo's little tricks in response to Lawrence and to other traders' little tricks. And there will probably be some escaping from the people who want to burn her at the stake -- although contributing to the Church's coffers was a good idea. And Horo's character and relationship with Lawrence are developing.

Maybe in the long run we'll see her disappointed at the disappearance of her old home. I expect we will see her with some wolves, whether or not that big one in OP is her.

A little repetition in the first two episodes is sometimes thought of as establishing the characters. Of course, a 52-episode show like Porfy no Tabi has more leisure to do that. I think it's reasonable not to have full confidence in a staff whose last big show was Cosmopolitan Prayers.

So what am I trying to say? That I enjoyed the first two episodes, but the verdict is still out on everything but how great Horo is and how promising the set-up is. I won't mind dialogue-heavy, even if it does mean I have to wait for a sub for full comprehension.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Middle ages version of the Nigerian scammer, I think. It's not at all an uncommon ploy, to tell someone about a "sure" deal that'll net great profits, "but alas, I'll have to pass it up because I can't afford the initial investment..." convince the unlucky sap to pay some amount towards getting it started, then disappear with the money. If stories I've read have any basis in fact, that's something traders have to constantly be on guard against. Anyone telling you about some sort of way to get rich quick, but they need money from you to get it going, is probably not on the level.

Lawrence's choice in cargo, in general, shows that he's probably smart enough to not be tricked by that. He carries products that are sure to sell: salt, furs, etc. They won't bring in as much money as certain higher-risk items, but he can also guarantee that they won't go bad enroute, and that he WILL be able to sell them, wherever he may end up.

That is quite possible, yes. However Lowrence said he won't be paying any deposits. Also, the guy didn't ask for money per se - just for lowrance to get the deal done and he would get some percentage pf the income for telling him which coin was going to be replaced ... oh well - we shall see. He is obviously scheming something, and we are going to get there sooner or later


About the lack of "something big" in this episode ... i don't think this is a show where to expect anything like that (though still possible). It seems character driven slice of life/adventure first and foremost. We have situations that develop the characters, and the interactions that stem from the situations they are put in seems to be the focal point, not the situations themselves.

What i expect this series to do is follow Lawrence and Horo in their daily "adventures" (even if nothing adventurous), watch the two interact and gain better understanding of one another. "we live in different worlds" ... gradually lessening the gap between these worlds and come to better understand each other is what i expect to be one of the main points in the series. Yes, Horo seems to have a specific goal in mind (travel north) and we are likely to experience several "mini arcs" (given how much focus is placed on the church ... "witch hunt" regarding Horo maybe?) or other episodic plots, but first and foremost it is about Horo and Lowrence. About the journey where we watch the two interact and grow, not the destination.

At least thats how i see it. And i must say, i like what i see.

[mandarb916]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

That is quite possible, yes. However Lowrence said he won't be paying any deposits. Also, the guy didn't ask for money per se - just for lowrance to get the deal done and he would get some percentage pf the income for telling him which coin was going to be replaced ... oh well - we shall see. He is obviously scheming something, and we are going to get there sooner or later

Actually, he said he doesn't have any money, currently, for the downpayment and would need to trade in his furs first. (Refer back to the conversation in front of the fireplace as to why he doesn't carry money).

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by monir

I'm in the minority as well. I think the reason this episode doesn't have that bam like episode 1 is because of the absence of Chloe. I admit I'm worried also, but the length of the show gives me hope and helps me to retain my confidence that it will have a compact and flowing storyline that leads to somewhere.

Though such a character never existed in the manga...maybe this is an attempt to make the series seem less "boring". Just looking and taking in the views of raw emotion is hard work...this series is slice of life so drama/action wise, I won't be expecting much. Knowing that now it would mean that I have to concerntrate more on thinking about those feelings expressed through each ep - moreso than your average romance genre. I'm still not sure about this series but so far Horo's tail is managing to keep my firm interest.

[mandarb916]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Though such a character never existed in the manga...maybe this is an attempt to make the series seem less "boring". Just looking and taking in the views of raw emotion is hard work...this series is slice of life so drama/action wise, I won't be expecting much. Knowing that now it would mean that I have to concerntrate more on thinking about those feelings expressed through each ep - moreso than your average romance genre. I'm still not sure about this series but so far Horo's tail is managing to keep my firm interest.

Kuroe is the replacement for a male figure in the original novel.

Spoiler:

She'll become an important antagonist figure in the future related to the church in some fashion

[bbduece]

And yet, I like the slow pace and dialogue heaviness of the show very much! Not much may have happened, but the interaction between the two is nice to watch. It somehow soothes and intrigues me at the same time.

i have to agree(.....soothes and intrigues......) because i dont have any thoughts or expectation from this show, i havent even heard about this show until i bt-ed it from suki

[james84562]

Originally Posted by mandarb916

One of the biggest concerns when the production was announced in Japan was the difficulty that this series would have going from novels to anime because of the content. Most of the bits and pieces I read, and from what others have also said, are very dialogue heavy...add to that, I think it was mentioned from the beginning that this series is a fantasy series with no swords or wizardry.

That said, I think your observations are spot on, in particular, if you were hoping for something huge to happen. However, whether they were successful or not being a different story, I think they did try quite a bit to draw out the personalities of Horo and Lawrence. Horo's wisdom from how she interacted with Zerin when suddenly asked to reveal her face, the bit about the importance of lies, etc. Lawrence's somewhat indecisive character, his traumatic past, etc.

While there will be some interesting plot progression, it's basically a story about a travelling salesman so it wouldn't be surprising to see a lot more of ep2 type episodes...which personally I really enjoyed not necessarily in content, but in CV performance

yeah you're right...
its basically the dialogue and interaction between the two that makes the novel fascinating....

[Vexx]

ep 2 notes:
I really enjoyed the ups and downs of Horo and Lawrence starting to get to know each other - with the fun parts and the sad little missteps each makes. Especially like the way they begin to express Horo's complex personality and mood shifts.

I thought the clothes drying scene was adapted to anime fairly well... with Lawrence not being able to really decide where to direct his eyeballs while being matter-of-fact.

[X207]

ep 2 was even better than the 1st ep. i want to know more about their past ie wolf atk related incidents.

[FlareKnight]

It really does come down to a story between two characters. Everything else is just giving them a direction to go. Sure this isn't going to be the first case where their different views on a situation will create some conflict.

Too bad that means more of Horo with a sad expression.

[bbduece]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

It really does come down to a story between two characters. Everything else is just giving them a direction to go. Sure this isn't going to be the first case where their different views on a situation will create some conflict.

Too bad that means more of Horo with a sad expression.

shes cute when that happens

[TinyRedLeaf]

Horo's cute factor has gone up. And I think she's shaping up nicely as a character with hidden depth. And oh, horrors of horrors, I'm actually beginning to enjoy Ringo Hiyori. Arggh, I can't get the cuteness out of my head~~~

A few notes on what I found interesting about Episode 2

Spoiler:

Bartering vs the use of money
So it seems that minting has only been recently invented in this world. In fact, even the concept of bartering seems alien to a vinyard owner, which seems even more strange.

I wonder if that means that the various villages and towns were completely self-sufficient and never needed to trade. That would turn merchants into something like parasites, in that their respective communities never really needed them in the first place, ie, merchants are skimming the fat off somebody else's labour.

The church had only become powerful recently
"The arrogance of claiming to be the only truth in the land."

An observation that could only have been made in a story produced outside of the US, that's what I feel. A worthwhile reminder for people who believe that they've found "The Truth" (tm).

Time and change
Interesting theme developing in the background here.

It started with Lawrence's innocent remark, "Time is money." Followed by Horo's observation that as far as farmers are concerned, they respond to the seasons and the needs of the moment. They merely do what they need to survive and do not really think in terms of future profit.

Living as we do in an industrialised era, most of us have no idea what it means to live outside the shackles of mechanised time. We are servants to the clock, a man-made invention, a way of life that our ancestors would have found completely alien. In the past, people lived according to the vagaries of Nature. They did not assume an ability to control "Time", let alone profit from its "use".

The other observation, which I'm pleased to see because it makes Horo a more complex character than she at first appears. She knows that her time is passing, if it has not passed already. Her observation about how the Church has made use of her, together with her tactless remarks about how wolves ate humans to gain wisdom reveals a deeper concern about how she should adapt to a new era.

Behind that cheerful exterior lies a wise wolf who probably suspects that she is part of a dying breed. I'm reminded of the gods of Mononoke Hime, who knew their time was up, but faced it nonetheless. In Horo's case, I don't know how she'll deal with change, but I guess the future episodes will soon show how.

Man and wolf
Wolves hunt and eat humans. Lawrence himself had personal encounters with wolves and probably lost friends to attacks.

Horo explained that the attacks were in response to human incursions into the forests. So, like in Mononoke Hime, there is the awareness that human progress is encroaching upon nature. It seemed that the wolves had two choices, either to eat humans to gain human wisdom or to become servile dogs and live in harmony with humans.

Wolves retain their pride ("I'm a proud wolf") but are doomed to extinction, while dogs lose their dignity but ensure their continued survival.

[dahl_moon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Spoiler:

Bartering vs the use of money
So it seems that minting has only been recently invented in this world. In fact, even the concept of bartering seems alien to a vinyard owner, which seems even more strange.

Spoiler for Response, episode 2:

I haven't checked any of the English subs, but if you mean minting as in the generation of coins, then coins have been used for a while. Lawrence just doesn't like to carry around a large amount. A method of lowering your chances of getting targetted, while being able to travel light.

The concept that was alien to the vineyard owner is Billing, or promising to pay later. Although it does seem like Lawrence is bartering, he is merely "playing the books." When he sold wheat, instead of "cash" he received a promise of payment, or a bill (although I think its closer to credit). He then uses this to later buy the salt at Yorentz. In the novel he does this at different branches of the same "trading company", which I don't think is clearly explained in the anime. By the way, I'm an engineer not a businessman so I have little idea whether or not what I'm talking about is correct

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Spoiler:

I wonder if that means that the various villages and towns were completely self-sufficient and never needed to trade. That would turn merchants into something like parasites, in that their respective communities never really needed them in the first place, ie, merchants are skimming the fat off somebody else's labour.

Spoiler for Response, off topic:

This is off topic, but according to confucianism, merchants are at the bottom of the barrel (nobles, peasants, or farmers, craftsmen, and lastly merchants. Slaves don't count). This is because of the supposed reason you stated. Just thought I'd add.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Spoiler for response to dahl_moon:

The concept that was alien to the vineyard owner is Billing, or promising to pay later. Although it does seem like Lawrence is bartering, he is merely "playing the books." When he sold wheat, instead of "cash" he received a promise of payment, or a bill (although I think its closer to credit). He then uses this to later buy the salt at Yorentz. In the novel he does this at different branches of the same "trading company", which I don't think is clearly explained in the anime. By the way, I'm an engineer not a businessman so I have little idea whether or not what I'm talking about is correct.

I don't think it was clearly explained in the anime, nor the manga, for that matter. Both sources (I'm using the BSS sub) suggests that Lawrence is "bartering", and that the vinyard owner doesn't understand the simplest form of trade.

But if Lawrence was indeed using "billing", then that sounds a lot more suitable for the time period suggested in the anime. You've explained the concept more or less correctly. The first "bills" used in the Middle Ages were letters of credit traded between merchants. Typically, what happens is that some merchants would deposit their cash with some prominent merchant houses. The "bills" were issued by these houses. A person would present the bill to the issuer, who promises to pay the noted amount in cash.

That was how paper bills eventually came to replace coins as cash.

This is off topic, but according to confucianism, merchants are at the bottom of the barrel (nobles, peasants, or farmers, craftsmen, and lastly merchants. Slaves don't count). This is because of the supposed reason you stated. Just thought I'd add.

Totally off-topic, but since you've brought it up, I thought I'd add a comment.

Yup, I'm familiar with the way merchants were ranked in Confucian societies, although I'm not sure to what extent that was really the case in China. The Chinese had always been fairly entrepreneurial, so merchants weren't really looked down on per se. But it was true that once they've made their money, rich Chinese would typically buy land or official titles, to become "respectable" gentry.

=======

By the way, I'm beginning to wonder why Horo accepted the deal to become a harvest spirit long ago. She admits to having eaten men, and let's face it, wolves are supposed to be carnivorous. It may well be the case that she took the first step towards adapting to a changing era quite some time ago, and paid a social price -- she's left her homeland and original nature behind.

She eats potatos and apples! That's not very wolf-like.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Should we be worried about that "if it's eaten, burnt, or mashed and returned to the earth I might disappear" comment Horo made? If she's actually bound to this bunch of wheat and ONLY this bunch now, if it's destroyed would she... you know... die?

I was thinking that same thing.... as soon as she said it, I'm like, "well if that's not foreshadowing then I don't know what the hell is".

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I feel like a bit of a spoilsport, but I can't quite fit in with the cheers of the other viewers... while I really loved episode 1, I've got to admit that I wasn't quite as impressed with episode 2.

Why?

Because unlike ep1, almost nothing of consequence happened.

But can you say that if the upcoming coin change part plays a big part in the first novel and leads to something big? I actually don't know if that's the case but I'm just saying...

[Ichihara Asako]

Originally Posted by herbert

Please feel free to grab.

Thanks! ^^

[Masanori Ota]

Originally Posted by Westlo

But can you say that if the upcoming coin change part plays a big part in the first novel and leads to something big? I actually don't know if that's the case but I'm just saying...

I believe it's connected to the ending of the first novel somehow. Can't be entirely sure yet.

[dahl_moon]

Ookami with Nintendo DS style dual screen. Nice job of showing multiple camera angles during the same scene.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2046265

Record of Lodoss War Opening with Ookami. Ookami is now an epic fantasy! Amazing how much the music can change the atmosphere. There will be an update on this as new episodes are released (too many travelling and doing nothing scenes in this version)
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2050103