AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Spice and Wolf

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-01-29, 23:30   Link #921
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
hmmm, your link seems to be broken??? edit: strange... their wordpress software throws up if I use the link but if I go there normally, its fine.
editedit: I guess the site was just throwing up for a bit... all fine now.

Warning: as usual, the Random Curiosity site has screen captures and spoilers.
http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2008...e-and-wolf-04/

And of course, there's usual pack of allcaps idiots in the commentary who need to be slapped with clue bats.

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-01-29 at 23:49.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 00:10   Link #922
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Some thoughts carried from another thread:
I've seen a few indications, reviews, and analyses that many of the sub groups are "not quite getting it right" in terms of Horo's dialog and speech patterns. It is fairly established she uses a dialect reminiscent of an "18th C. Edo courtesan (pleasure girl)" ... but translating that effect into subtitles to give the viewer that feeling is quite tough. English just lacks the subchannels to add that feeling.

Something elegant but erotic is needed ... now what kind of written *words* would one use to convey that?

Much sympathies for the translators, editors, and QC people in the various subgroups trying to capture that.
How many ways is there to make reference to oneself in English apart from "I". I can't think of any other ways.

The Translator should take a look at the official chinese translation of the novels under Kadokawa Taiwan for reference, if they can understand chinese. The translator translate Horo's "Watsuchi" as "咱" , "Jya" as "呐" and "dearisu" as "唄". I'm not sure if this brings out the manner you requested, but it does bring forward Horo's unique way of speaking into the Chinese language.

PS:- Chinese Subs has also follows the translated novel's way of Horo-speak instead of using the conventional way.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 00:56   Link #923
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
How many ways is there to make reference to oneself in English apart from "I". I can't think of any other ways.

The Translator should take a look at the official chinese translation of the novels under Kadokawa Taiwan for reference, if they can understand chinese. The translator translate Horo's "Watsuchi" as "咱" , "Jya" as "呐" and "dearisu" as "唄". I'm not sure if this brings out the manner you requested, but it does bring forward Horo's unique way of speaking into the Chinese language.

PS:- Chinese Subs has also follows the translated novel's way of Horo-speak instead of using the conventional way.
There's also the whole topic of verb endings and particles....
I wasn't talking about word by word translation. I was discussing how one might translate the *spirit* of why Horo's dialog sounds a bit risque/erotic to the ears of the humans in the story. English is limited in that respect, but there might a 'elegant but sexy' dialect that might fit though it would almost certainly require some phrasing tweaks.

I'm just going through possible written dialects in my head that might convey that.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 08:31   Link #924
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I was discussing how one might translate the *spirit* of why Horo's dialog sounds a bit risque/erotic to the ears of the humans in the story. English is limited in that respect, but there might a 'elegant but sexy' dialect that might fit though it would almost certainly require some phrasing tweaks.

I'm just going through possible written dialects in my head that might convey that.
A tough job that maybe because while I was reading the novel, I don't think her way of talking was bewitching. Old fashion, maybe. But certainly not enchanting nor enticing, if not without her antics.

I believe the modern ears is not acustomed to the choice of words Horo is utilising and any attempts to charm the readers/viewers alone without her antics will fall flat.

As an example, why are there so many books on Shakespeare's works out there that simpify his beautiful words into today's colloquial english instead of retaining it in it's full 16th century charms ? Certainly those word withstood the test of time but just reading them is a chord today and that's exactly the kind of words Horo speaking if we try to bring her way of speaking faithfully into English.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 14:40   Link #925
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
I don't know.... I've not seen these "Shakespeare for Dummies" books you mention

Yeah, I suppose shaping her dialog with a *pinch* of Shakespearian flourish is probably the best one might hope for.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 16:51   Link #926
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't know.... I've not seen these "Shakespeare for Dummies" books you mention
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...peare&x=7&y=20
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 17:20   Link #927
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
(peruses the selections and the examples.....)

The human race IS totally toast, isn't it? We're all doomed....
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 17:27   Link #928
Sterling01
霊夢→デレ
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC, NY
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
(peruses the selections and the examples.....)

The human race IS totally toast, isn't it? We're all doomed....
Yes, the Human Race is Indeed doomed
__________________
Sterling01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 17:30   Link #929
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
(peruses the selections and the examples.....)

The human race IS totally toast, isn't it? We're all doomed....
I personally had a stint being a litreature student for a year as a 15 year old being task on reading and understanding A Midsummer Night's Dream. It was not easy and I barely make the grade. Thereafter, I drop the subject immediately.

On topic, perhaps you should request one of the Fansub group's translator and subber to try to make Horo speaks in Shakespearean English for the viewers and see if things work out.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 17:30   Link #930
Eviltape
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Florida, USA
I swear, this series like world economics class in 24 minute classes. Except with outdated currencies and a medieval economic model that's a bit useless in today's world. :P
Eviltape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 17:39   Link #931
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Actually, the basics apply quite a lot more than one might think. There's a whole industry of currency speculation that uses *exactly* the same tactics (though its more complicated since the gold and silver don't matter in the coin -- its the fundamentals of a nation's economy that back the coinage). The trade is not irrelevant either -- its just the *scale* that changes. The ethics certainly haven't changed much... actually they've gotten even nastier.

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-01-30 at 17:52.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 18:10   Link #932
FatPianoBoy
Dansa med oss
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
(peruses the selections and the examples.....)

The human race IS totally toast, isn't it? We're all doomed....
Hmm? I have several of these, and they're very, very useful if you use them properly. I follow the original text as much as I can, just glancing over at the modernization and cultural hints when the occasional odd vocabulary stumps me. Being left completely to my own devices in broadening my literary horizons (my parents still have nothing outside of reference material and children's books in the house), it's helped expand my comprehension of the dialect and general vocabulary in a way that otherwise I probably wouldn't have been able to.

[/off-topic]
__________________
FatPianoBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 18:46   Link #933
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2
I personally had a stint being a litreature student for a year as a 15 year old being task on reading and understanding A Midsummer Night's Dream. It was not easy and I barely make the grade. Thereafter, I drop the subject immediately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy
I have several of these, and they're very, very useful if you use them properly. I follow the original text as much as I can, just glancing over at the modernization and cultural hints when the occasional odd vocabulary stumps me.
What many people don't realise is that they're studying plays - Shakespeare's "strange" and "difficult to understand" lines are meant to be read out loud, upon a stage. Try it. And you'll see how easily some of the words roll of the tongue. That is because, for the most part, he wrote in iambic pentameter, a form of blank verse that approximates normal conversation.

This is part of the "beauty" of studying Shakespeare that you're bound to lose if you read a "modernised" text instead.

Besides the poetry, Shakespeare is probably one of the first artists in the Middle Ages/Renaissance, if not the first, to demonstrate a very keen understanding of human nature. Many of his characters have surprising depth and complexity, and it often takes a skilled actor and director to bring out the nuances effectively. This is probably the greatest reason why people still read and perform Shakespeare's plays today.

Back on topic, I do wonder about courtesan dialects in Europe...hmm. I wonder if any did exist. Best bet perhaps is Venice in the 18th century? The time of Casanova?
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 19:38   Link #934
CrowKenobi
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Back on topic, I do wonder about courtesan dialects in Europe...hmm. I wonder if any did exist. Best bet perhaps is Venice in the 18th century? The time of Casanova?
It's amazing what shows up when you google "courtesan dialects."

Early Modern Japanese Literature: An Anthology, 1600-1900

__________________



CrowKenobi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 19:44   Link #935
FlareKnight
User of the "Fast Draw"
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to FlareKnight Send a message via MSN to FlareKnight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling01 View Post
Yes, the Human Race is Indeed doomed
Yeah that's something we can pretty much agree on .

I do understand the guy is a great writer with all that depth and complexity you get in the characters. All I know is that it wasn't a great time during English when the Shakespeare bomb got dropped . Could get through it, but still. Plus people died...a lot. But good for the people who can appreciate it.
__________________
FlareKnight is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 21:11   Link #936
FatPianoBoy
Dansa med oss
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
This is part of the "beauty" of studying Shakespeare that you're bound to lose if you read a "modernised" text instead.
Let me rephrase that.

I approach Shakespeare like I approach Japanese literature: I read as much as I can on my own and use a reference to fill in the blanks. Naturally, the more I read the fewer blanks I need filled in. The modernized text is like my Japanese-English dictionary.
__________________
FatPianoBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 22:26   Link #937
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Yeah, I suppose shaping her dialog with a *pinch* of Shakespearian flourish is probably the best one might hope for.
You know, considering how many players howl over the "olde English" script used in FFXII ("zomgs! the voice acting in FFXII is awful!"), I wonder if viewers are truly ready to listen to Horo speaking Elizabethan English in a R1 dub.


Consider this example from Speaking old English for Dungeon Crawlers:

Lady: Well met, milord. Whither wendest thou?

Knight: I came hither from Britain, Lady, and am making for Covetous this very minute.

Lady:Wherefore goest thou thither?

Knight: For to rid the labrynth's twisting passages of the evil that doth lurk therein.

Lady: And when thou returnest thence?

Knight: I shall again to fair Britain, the bounty of mine hunt for to leave in the bank there.

Lady: Well and good then, milord. Hie thee hence! Hie thee hence! And may the Virtues smile upon thee.

Knight: And on thee, milady, and may thou not be troubled overly by mongbats.
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 22:37   Link #938
Mr Hat and Clogs
Troublemaker Fanclub
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 31
Quote:
Yes, the Human Race is Indeed doomed
We were boned a long time ago.

Also, lol TRL.
__________________
Mr Hat and Clogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-30, 22:55   Link #939
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Vexx already posted a link to only the more relevant sections in the Q&A thread a while ago. I got to about page 20, but there is too much information not relevant to SaW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling01 View Post
Yes, the Human Race is Indeed doomed
Just because language changes, doesn't mean we got dumber. I've read AND performed unabridged Shakespearian works (King Lear, Hamlet, Taming of the Shrew [performed], Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth), and it's still a pain to read. Iambic pentameter is beautiful, as is the characterization, and literary depth, but he just uses SO MANY words differently. In some editions, a good 40% of any given page will be dedicated to footnotes explaining cultural references and word choice. Seriously, what kind of person today knows what a "fishmonger" is off the top of their head without having studied Hamlet?

Yes, it was intended for lower class citizens, especially the cruder humor and imagery, but that's like saying people were dumb back in the day because they can't understand gangsta rap. I know comparing Shakespeare to rap is an atrocity, but it does illustrate the point quite well.
__________________

Last edited by tripperazn; 2008-01-30 at 23:06.
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-31, 01:17   Link #940
Sterling01
霊夢→デレ
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC, NY
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Just because language changes, doesn't mean we got dumber. I've read AND performed unabridged Shakespearian works (King Lear, Hamlet, Taming of the Shrew [performed], Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth), and it's still a pain to read. Iambic pentameter is beautiful, as is the characterization, and literary depth, but he just uses SO MANY words differently. In some editions, a good 40% of any given page will be dedicated to footnotes explaining cultural references and word choice. Seriously, what kind of person today knows what a "fishmonger" is off the top of their head without having studied Hamlet?

Yes, it was intended for lower class citizens, especially the cruder humor and imagery, but that's like saying people were dumb back in the day because they can't understand gangsta rap. I know comparing Shakespeare to rap is an atrocity, but it does illustrate the point quite well.
Oh I was just refering to something my old english teacher once said.
__________________
Sterling01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
adventure, drama, fantasy, furry, imagin, kemonomimi, romance, shounen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.