What happened to the Duel and Buster

[ila-chan]

1st aniversary. Right in the middle between GS and GSD

[JagdPanther]

Shouldn't it be 2nd anniversary because the first anniversary was during the war shortly after the GAT-X series was released?

Yeah, just nitpicking. ^^;

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ ila-chan

Oh I see. I didn't know that. I only knew that Duel and Buster were just shipped off somewhere. LOL.

[supperrfreek]

second line duty, probably they were too old and obsolete for front line service so they were sent to where they could be used more effectively

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

second line duty, probably they were too old and obsolete for front line service so they were sent to where they could be used more effectively

O.o

You're kidding, I hope.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Well, they were outdated, so that could possibly happen.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Well, they were outdated, so that could possibly happen.

Not sure if the Dagger was an *improvement* over the Buster and Duel. lol

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Not sure if the Dagger was an *improvement* over the Buster and Duel. lol

Dagger wasn't (because they were intentionally made cheaply), but Strike Dagger was almost certainly on par with them. Buster Daggers and Duel Daggers were made for EA aces, and they weren't weak.

And of course, the EA had built newer prototypes for Phantom-pain. Thus EA doesn't really care to get them back...

As for ZAFT... Fact of the matter is, ZAFT had already concocted their own "home grown" Gundams, as well as ripping off the Strike Packs with the Wizard system. As EA MS, the old Buster and Duel would need its own group of engineers and making of spare parts just to keep running. This is just not worth the trouble.

Essentially, you can't give them to your best pilots because they would rather have newer machines. While it isnt worth giving them to grunts because the maintance costs are too high for ZAFT(because no one else use the same parts), and there are equivalent Buster and Duel Daggers for EA.

EDIT: I know it sounds strange, because normally state-of-the-art weapons shouldn't go out of date within two years. But the CE universe has an abnormally accelerated rate of weapon development, even by anime standards. If left unchecked, a way to blow up galaxies would be invented in three generations of CE time.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Somehow I feel strange that it is going to happen in the movie, LOL.

[ila-chan]

In terms of reused mechas and grunts (from the UC all the way to CE), I'll bet that Duel and Buster will be reborn... in the movie.

Til then, God knows what the movie is all about. IF there is one....

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ila-chan

In terms of reused mechas and grunts (from the UC all the way to CE), I'll bet that Duel and Buster will be reborn... in the movie.

Til then, God knows what the movie is all about. IF there is one....

But that's the point. They had already been reborn, as Buster and Duel Daggers, and also as the new PP versions in the Stargazer OVA. The original frames of the first Buster and Duel are probably chopped up and sold to the Junk Guild as scrap by now.

The original Strike could no longer be up to the task in the Destiny battlefields, as Kira found out. If even Kira can't survive using a first-generation Gundam anymore, what's the odds of anyone else not dying in these same Gundams?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Essentially, you can't give them to your best pilots because they would rather have newer machines. While it isnt worth giving them to grunts because the maintance costs are too high for ZAFT(because no one else use the same parts), and there are equivalent Buster and Duel Daggers for EA.

That sounds about right. For a real-world comparison, countries at war would often use captured tanks in combat, but only until they can be replaced by indigenous vehicles. The main reason is that it doesn't make any sense to have a full logistics train of ammunition, fuel, spare parts, and trained mechanics for a small number of vehicles. The same logic helps to explain why prototypes generally aren't used in combat.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

EDIT: I know it sounds strange, because normally state-of-the-art weapons shouldn't go out of date within two years. But the CE universe has an abnormally accelerated rate of weapon development, even by anime standards.

It's actually not that unrealistic. Nascent technologies often undergo a huge amount of change in the first few years they are adopted. A comprable example is the development of the jet fighter. When they were first produced, jets had numerous advantages over prop-fighters. However, by the time World War II era jets (mostly P-80s) were employed in large numbers in Korea, they were already outclassed by Mig-15s. The P-80 first flew in early-1944, and the Mig-15 first flew in late-1947. While the timeframes for Destiny are a little more exaggerated, they're not too far off.

I'd say that a much bigger problem is that the development cycle is overly truncated - even in wartime, the development of a new machine would take a couple of years; and the same development would be 10+ years in peacetime. The problem should be even greater when you're dealing with more advanced hardware.

But even that pales in comparison to the way prototypes are portrayed. In Gundam, they are the hero units that can take apart line units with relative ease. In the real world, they have an enormous and expensive logistical drain, have tons of problems and bugs, and are generally quite unsuited for the battlefield. It's rather sad that anyone thinks that Gundam show depict this with any degree of accuracy.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That sounds about right. For a real-world comparison, countries at war would often use captured tanks in combat, but only until they can be replaced by indigenous vehicles. The main reason is that it doesn't make any sense to have a full logistics train of ammunition, fuel, spare parts, and trained mechanics for a small number of vehicles. The same logic helps to explain why prototypes generally aren't used in combat...



...But even that pales in comparison to the way prototypes are portrayed. In Gundam, they are the hero units that can take apart line units with relative ease. In the real world, they have an enormous and expensive logistical drain, have tons of problems and bugs, and are generally quite unsuited for the battlefield. It's rather sad that anyone thinks that Gundam show depict this with any degree of accuracy.

Your first paragraph actually explains why prototype Gundams are portrayed as super weapons of war in your final paragraph.

Unique one-of-a-kind prototypes need a full logistic train of supply to run, true. So the only way it could be justified is if its firepower can have an equivalent effect to those of a group of grunts. This makes sense, once one realised that the script needed Prototypes to be fielded in battle and everything else in that world is built around that concept.)

(Interestingly, the Gundams in the Wing series had no backup whatsoever for most of the show. So they were scripted to be practically indestructable.)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Your first paragraph actually explains why prototype Gundams are portrayed as super weapons of war in your final paragraph.

Yup. I know why it's done, but I don't have to like it.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Unique one-of-a-kind prototypes need a full logistic train of supply to run, true. So the only way it could be justified is if its firepower can have an equivalent effect to those of a group of grunts. This makes sense, once one realised that the script needed Prototypes to be fielded in battle and everything else in that world is built around that concept.)

Absolutely. Moreover, it's even worse that the original conceit for Mobile Suit Gundam is that the brand-new and untested superweapon can be operated and maintained by almost complete amateurs.

This makes me wonder why people claim that mobile suits are just machines when the main character is almost always given a one-of-a-kind "hero" machine that takes on other "hero" (or "monster") machines. While Gundam may be more realistic in this regard than most Super Robot shows, the degree of difference is relatively slight. The first anime to truly depict mecha as just machines would probably be Macross where, for all but a couple of cases, the only thing that distinguishes the unit that the hero uses and any other line model would be a paint-job or a slightly different head. There were a bunch of anime in the '80s that followed the same aesthetic (I believe that VOTOMs is the most notable example), but it's sad that mecha anime are no longer like this.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

(Interestingly, the Gundams in the Wing series had no backup whatsoever for most of the show. So they were scripted to be practically indestructable.)

In a way I prefer this approach. At the very least, intelligent viewers wouldn't assume that Wing is making any claims to being realistic in its treatment of the Gundams.

[supperrfreek]

prototypes have potential to be much better than production models because production models are sometimes changed for ease of production, this can have varied effects on the production model

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

prototypes have potential to be much better than production models because production models are sometimes changed for ease of production, this can have varied effects on the production model

That's the reason advanced in Gundam, but it's bogus. Normally, the further along the prototype is to production, the more it should resemble the production version. The idea is to mass produce a more refined version of the prototype, not a lesser version. And with the way mission creep works its way into the procurement process, the mass-produced version is often far more capable than its prototype. Usually, the only reason for a feature to be in the prototype not to show up in the production version is because said feature sucked. This is one area where Gundam actually misleads people about how things work in real life.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Just a point on the fact that prototypes got fielded in battle...

If I remembered it correctly, the original RX-78-2 Gundam was only put to use because they had no choice. (The fact that they were desparate was also the explanation why Amuro got to be the pilot.) It was either use the prototype or die.

This plot device was essentially replicated for Gundam SEED.

I guess the problem with the word "proto-type", is that it really only applies to the first generation of Gundams. Most "proto-types" later on in these series were merely commander units built with expensive features, and was never intended for mass production.

Guess you can call them "custom weapons"? Like how the Desert Tiger had his own unique unit, but it wasn't a prototype.

[ila-chan]

Techically, prototypes are usually the first, second (or god knows how many) unit/product of things that are fully tested in the real world instead of in the lab. Most things we have had prototypes; the shoes we wear, the clothes on our back... Hey, even waht we ate had one too. Prototypes tend to be a test subject; wheter it is sutable or not in the real world, if it have complications, etc. But my main point here is this - a prototype is used as a basis to make a better product. But then, why in the hell does Strike Dagger sucks?

I really think that most so-called prototypes (The GAT series, Freedom and Justice) really are "custom weapons". Those "custom weapons" may be intended for mass production, but I really can't imagine a 100 Freedoms fighting each other.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ila-chan

Techically, prototypes are usually the first, second (or god knows how many) unit/product of things that are fully tested in the real world instead of in the lab. Most things we have had prototypes; the shoes we wear, the clothes on our back... Hey, even waht we ate had one too. Prototypes tend to be a test subject; wheter it is sutable or not in the real world, if it have complications, etc. But my main point here is this - a prototype is used as a basis to make a better product. But then, why in the hell does Strike Dagger sucks?

Strike Daggers do NOT suck. Daggers suck. They are two different units. Daggers were the cheap-and-nasty units EA built because they didn't have time to make Strike Daggers at a sufficient quantity to meet their needs. Strike Daggers, Buster Daggers, Duel Daggers, and indeed N-Dagger-N (Blitz Dagger), were all powerful units.

However, there wasn't enough time during the first Seed war for these mass-produced units to be made in numbers, fielded in battle, and make a difference, because the Clyne Faction ended the war prematurely. By the time the second Seed war came around, these units were made obsolete by the aforementioned accelerated technological advancements.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by ila-chan

I really think that most so-called prototypes (The GAT series, Freedom and Justice) really are "custom weapons". Those "custom weapons" may be intended for mass production, but I really can't imagine a 100 Freedoms fighting each other.

Calling them "custom weapons" is much more palatable, but it still makes no more sense militarily. While real-world aces (of all sorts) are generally afforded the best equipment a nation has access to, no military in its right mind would design a whole war machine for one. The logistics footprint that any unique models eat up make them more of a drain than an asset.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

However, there wasn't enough time during the first Seed war for these mass-produced units to be made in numbers, fielded in battle, and make a difference, because the Clyne Faction ended the war prematurely. By the time the second Seed war came around, these units were made obsolete by the aforementioned accelerated technological advancements.

Heh. The problems that you bring up about the Dagger remind me of those that plagued the German Ta-152. The similarities are:
1. The Ta-152 was supposed to greatly outperform the fighters available to the Luftwaffe. At high altitudes, it was actually superior to the early jets.
2. It was never fielded in significant numbers.
3. It was rushed into production and it probably sucked much more than the Dagger did. Because the Ta-152 never went through the proper testing, there were tons of maintenance problems and bugs. A lack of spare parts meant that most of the fleet ended up getting grounded, rather than go into combat.