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Old 2007-07-26, 01:27   Link #41
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Just another thing about "prototypes"...

As I mentioned before, the RX-78-2 Gundam was a prototype that was forced onto the battlefield by accident. However, its stellar battle record meant there was attempts to "recapture the magic" by the weapon developers. Unfortunately the RX-78-4~6 all encountered problems under battle conditions, thus suggesting it was only due to the existance of Captain Bright, Amuro's Newtype skills, and huge amount of luck that made RX-78-2 so good.

So yeah, 4Tran's view that prototypes aren't a good idea for battle might actually not be so strange to the UC story writers.

Another thing, is that once UC Newtype powers were understood, it became desirable to design unique MS to take advantage of the user's psychic powers. Since known Newtype pilots were few in number, it is obviously meaningless to mass-produce these special mobile suits.
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Old 2007-07-30, 18:56   Link #42
Zertz
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In regards to the logistics train related to unique units, perhaps in this fabulous future of futures almost all MS components are variations on a ridiculously uniform design.

I mean, current engines for cars, trucks, LAVs/Strykers, and tanks are all similar, but maybe the widget from the Freedom is interchangeable with the widget from the Calamity with the widget from the ZAKU with the widget from the Windam.

Example, when the Duel first gets its arm shot off on Phase Shift Down the ZAFT maintenance crew seems to replace it complete with PS armour ridiculously quickly for not having a spare so perhaps all they had to do was assemble their own ZAFT spare parts with as different chassis and some modifcations and good as new?
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Old 2007-08-06, 03:43   Link #43
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The Duel & Buster could be in a ZAFT museum.

By Destiny, a beam rifle and shield(Duel) won't cut it even against grunt units.

Buster, lack of shield would be no good against beam-equipped grunt units.

Not to mention both units uses the old battery the original Strike used. They would run out of power pretty quickly.
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Old 2007-08-07, 17:17   Link #44
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Midlife upgrades are generally only a good idea for mass production items as well. Why upgrade the Duel and the Buster when you can build the Chaos, Gaia, and Abyss.
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Old 2007-08-10, 00:18   Link #45
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The fact remains that in the CE technology sped up rather quickly in a span of just 2 years, whereas in the UC, it took a long time to actually adjust their own technology against what they currently have at the moment. Also, not all technology was equal in the UC, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses, but the abilities of the pilots themselves (and the eternal Captain Bright of course ) became the deciding factor of who wins and who loses and who dies as they only complement the strengths and weaknesses each of their respective faction has against the others. Duel and Buster were decent enough suits in their heyday, so I really don't think that upgrading them or outfitting them for CE 73 would be ridiculous. The Freedom was a veteran of the last war, but it was able to hold on its own against the newer suits considering it is still using the old engine it had like the old destroyed Justice. Of course, Duel and Buster are not like Freedom, but still. Freedom was just repaired, and could possibly be outfitted with new technology in its 2 year hiatus, but what it actually showed us in the first half of Destiny didn't show any sign that it had something new up its sleeves; it was still the same old Freedom. Also, ZAFT could outfit Duel and Buster with the battery replenishing technology Impulse has. Besides, if the other Gundams weren't jacked, I see Yzak and Dearka using those suits, even Heine.
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Old 2007-08-10, 03:43   Link #46
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
The fact remains that in the CE technology sped up rather quickly in a span of just 2 years, whereas in the UC, it took a long time to actually adjust their own technology against what they currently have at the moment. Also, not all technology was equal in the UC, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses, but the abilities of the pilots themselves (and the eternal Captain Bright of course ) became the deciding factor of who wins and who loses and who dies as they only complement the strengths and weaknesses each of their respective faction has against the others. Duel and Buster were decent enough suits in their heyday, so I really don't think that upgrading them or outfitting them for CE 73 would be ridiculous. The Freedom was a veteran of the last war, but it was able to hold on its own against the newer suits considering it is still using the old engine it had like the old destroyed Justice. Of course, Duel and Buster are not like Freedom, but still. Freedom was just repaired, and could possibly be outfitted with new technology in its 2 year hiatus, but what it actually showed us in the first half of Destiny didn't show any sign that it had something new up its sleeves; it was still the same old Freedom. Also, ZAFT could outfit Duel and Buster with the battery replenishing technology Impulse has. Besides, if the other Gundams weren't jacked, I see Yzak and Dearka using those suits, even Heine.
The question wasn't if the old Gundams could be made useful in the battlefield; the question was is it worth it?
As I mentioned before, you wouldn't ever hand out such units to grunts, because the MS's unique parts means resupply is difficult.

But why would an Ace pilot who earned his/her right to have a unique MS, want anything but the latest equipment?
"Congratulations! You can now get a brand-new MS built to your specifications... Or if you like, how about using this retro-fitted second-hand MS instead?"

Why would any non-grunts, who is in the position to get Duel or Buster, want to use Duel or Buster? They aren't useless, but they aren't top of the line anymore.
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Old 2007-08-10, 04:49   Link #47
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It is a given fact that certain things must be considered before heading out into an open battlefield, and your armaments are part of it; one must have the latest armaments or something decently comparable in order to protect oneself from enemy fire.

The question of having Duel and Buster = worth it on the battlefield...as I also said, they were pretty decent suits in the last war, and as somebody also pointed out in this thread, if they were able to create a PS coated arm for the Duel in such a ridiculous amount of time, considering the PS armor was still new at that time...how much more 2 years after? The EA retrofitted the designs for Stargazer, so I don't think it would be impossible for ZAFT to retrofit the same suits for actual combat in the CE 73 war. Duel and Buster were really good suits, heck, all the G prototypes were good suits, it is a shame just dumping them right away now that there is more technology more suited to beam spamming and the like on the horizon, and Yzak and Dearka don't deserve another set of badass Gundams to complement their skills on the battlefield... also, they are comfortable using those suits as well, they would keep up with a lot of the new suits if they were redesigned properly, and it would help now that ZAFT was such in dire need of super suits in order to contain the situation regarding their war against the EA and the Orb and Clyne Faction...even the new ZAKU suits used by Lunamaria and Rey were no match for the suits deployed by Orb and the EA, and Impulse and Legend and Destiny were no match for Strike Freedom, Infinite Justice, and Akatsuki...just as not a lot of ZAFT new grunt suits were no match for the DOM Troopers...I could go on and on, but that only means that not all new technology could be counted on the battlefield, and the question of the pilot abilities must come in here somewhere, but I am declining to join in another debate about that. I guess it all depends ==>from where<== the new technology comes from, anyway.
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Old 2007-08-10, 08:16   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zertz
Example, when the Duel first gets its arm shot off on Phase Shift Down the ZAFT maintenance crew seems to replace it complete with PS armour ridiculously quickly for not having a spare so perhaps all they had to do was assemble their own ZAFT spare parts with as different chassis and some modifcations and good as new?
The only way this would make sense is if they managed to steal some spare parts as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
The fact remains that in the CE technology sped up rather quickly in a span of just 2 years, whereas in the UC, it took a long time to actually adjust their own technology against what they currently have at the moment.
For purposes of comparing realism, it makes much more sense to compare fictional events to real-life. As I pointed out earlier, it's not uncommon for nascent technologies like mobile suits to see very rapid improvement: there are only three years between the debut of the F-80 and Mig-15/F-86 - and the latter jets vastly outperform the F-80.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Duel and Buster were decent enough suits in their heyday, so I really don't think that upgrading them or outfitting them for CE 73 would be ridiculous. The Freedom was a veteran of the last war, but it was able to hold on its own against the newer suits considering it is still using the old engine it had like the old destroyed Justice. Of course, Duel and Buster are not like Freedom, but still.
The main difference is that Freedom occupies a unique combat niche while Duel and Buster have to compete with various ZAFT designs that do the same job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
also, they are comfortable using those suits as well, they would keep up with a lot of the new suits if they were redesigned properly, and it would help now that ZAFT was such in dire need of super suits in order to contain the situation regarding their war against the EA and the Orb and Clyne Faction...
They weren't in any dire need at all - they had Gaia, Abyss and Chaos; and Destiny and Legend were just about to be completed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
even the new ZAKU suits used by Lunamaria and Rey were no match for the suits deployed by Orb and the EA
It wasn't really that they were "no match", it's more that they were unsuited for naval battles. In other environments, they'd be quite capable of matching their enemies line units. And it's not as if ZAFT didn't have plenty of other designs for naval conflict as well.
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Old 2007-08-10, 17:35   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
as somebody also pointed out in this thread, if they were able to create a PS coated arm for the Duel in such a ridiculous amount of time, considering the PS armor was still new at that time...how much more 2 years after?
I don't believe they made a new PS coated arm for Duel. To me, it's more like Duel's PS armor extended its protection to the new limb.
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Old 2007-08-10, 19:16   Link #50
Zertz
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Yet it doesn't affect the Assault Shroud for some reason.

Edit: Although, in retrospect, replacing an arm is far simpler than added components if the PS is centraly generated. My original point was that it seemed they had such a quick turn around for the repair that they could've just modified GINN limb components with a few reverse engineered systems and a Duel style chassis (so it looks the same) rather than having to go from scratch.

If that was the case then it would appear all mobile suits are of very similar design and the logistics behind maintaining foriegn suits are not that bad. A major problem with using foriegn suits to me would be the ammunition- but with beam weapons the ammunition is a power supply.
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Old 2007-08-10, 20:08   Link #51
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If that was the case then it would appear all mobile suits are of very similar design and the logistics behind maintaining foriegn suits are not that bad. A major problem with using foriegn suits to me would be the ammunition- but with beam weapons the ammunition is a power supply.
There are actually tons of problems when one tries to integrate any unfamiliar design. It could be major things like different ammunition, fuel, communications protocol, and maintenance requirements to minor things like different measurement standards or slightly different parts. In order to maintain Buster and Duel, ZAFT would literally have to have a specialized maintenace crew trained to fix and maintain the machines, the requisite parts that go into repairs (this could be something as minor as a particular nut and bolt that isn't used anywhere else), spare supplies of armor and weapons that can't be used anywhere else, specialized maintenance equipment and so forth. While many Cosmic Era functions seem to be interchangeable between nations, there will still be a large logistical tail that wouldn't otherwise be necessary. And they'd be doing all of this for a very limited gain.

In the real world, most countries try to limit their purchases of military equipment to as few countries as possible to ensure the smallest logistical tail possible. Even in the U.S. Army, there's a concious attempt to reduce their logitical demands by putting as many functions as possible on a single common platform.
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Old 2007-08-10, 20:42   Link #52
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See, its not like the current state of the world arms dynamic though. ZAFT created mobile suits and then Orb/The Alliance produced their own (reverse engineering most likely) - Its like ZAFT is using the AK-47, Orb is using the AK-103, and the EAF is using the Galil, to put it in small arms terms.

Edit: Do note that as I said earlier, it doesn't make sense to use the Duel and Buster anymore anyways since ZAFT is capable of producing better suits such as the Chaos, Gaia, Abyss, and Impulse. To stay in service the Duel and the Buster would need a midlife upgrade, which is not really worth it.
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Old 2007-08-10, 22:50   Link #53
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zertz
See, its not like the current state of the world arms dynamic though. ZAFT created mobile suits and then Orb/The Alliance produced their own (reverse engineering most likely) - Its like ZAFT is using the AK-47, Orb is using the AK-103, and the EAF is using the Galil, to put it in small arms terms.
You're right; that's why I drew my analogy from the early days of jet development. By the way, while it may work that way in fiction, weapons are rarely developed through reverse-engineering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zertz
Edit: Do note that as I said earlier, it doesn't make sense to use the Duel and Buster anymore anyways since ZAFT is capable of producing better suits such as the Chaos, Gaia, Abyss, and Impulse. To stay in service the Duel and the Buster would need a midlife upgrade, which is not really worth it.
The problem is that this would be less important than the fact that they occupy combat niches that are already fulfilled by line units. Very few countries are foolish enough to employ different weapons in the same niche despite facing a large logistical hit.
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Old 2007-08-11, 11:31   Link #54
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Small arms in the past were frequently developed by reverse engineering, the StG 44 was reverse engineered into the AK Series and the Galil for example.

When one group develops technology with no equivelent reverse engineering is a great plan. Besides the StG 44 other examples include the V2 Rocket -> Soviet ICBMs (R7s) and SCUDs, American B29s to Russian Tu-4s, American Bazookas -> Nazi German Panzershrecks, Nazi German Panzerfausts -> Russian RPGs.

So it really depends on the situation.

Agreed in regards to the combat niches.
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Old 2007-08-11, 11:55   Link #55
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Small arms in the past were frequently developed by reverse engineering, the StG 44 was reverse engineered into the AK Series and the Galil for example.
Erm, kinda, but not really.

While they look similar, they are very different mechanically. The only thing Kalashnikov "reverse engineered" was the look.

While not necessarily a good indicator, Kalashnikov himself denies that the StG was the basis for the AK.
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Old 2007-08-11, 13:06   Link #56
4Tran
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Small arms in the past were frequently developed by reverse engineering, the StG 44 was reverse engineered into the AK Series and the Galil for example.

When one group develops technology with no equivelent reverse engineering is a great plan. Besides the StG 44 other examples include the V2 Rocket -> Soviet ICBMs (R7s) and SCUDs, American B29s to Russian Tu-4s, American Bazookas -> Nazi German Panzershrecks, Nazi German Panzerfausts -> Russian RPGs.

So it really depends on the situation.
Reverse-engineering is the specific process of taking an existing piece of technology apart to examine how it works, and to use its mechanisms to develop different machines. Some of what you posted would be considered reverse-engineering, but some of it isn't. As Jagdpanther pointed out, the AK-47 and all of its descendents (including the Galil) are built around a different mechanism than the StG44. All the Germans really copied from the Bazooka was its general concept, and the RPG-2 wasn't reverse-engineered from the Panzerfaust.

The development history of the Panther tank is illustrative of how most military procurement works - military vehicles are often designed as a response to an enemy capability or perceived capability. True reverse-engineering does exist - and has done so since at least the First Punic War, but it's still a fairly rare occurence.
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Old 2007-08-11, 21:53   Link #57
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Erm, kinda, but not really.

While they look similar, they are very different mechanically. The only thing Kalashnikov "reverse engineered" was the look.

While not necessarily a good indicator, Kalashnikov himself denies that the StG was the basis for the AK.
Look, all I know is he got his hands on an StG 44 then produced a rifle with a similar exterior design and more noteably the exact same gas system.

Edit:

A bit off topic, but kind of related. Why is it that mass production mobile suits don't incorporate a PS system? Would it be that expensive?
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Old 2007-08-11, 22:45   Link #58
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A bit off topic, but kind of related. Why is it that mass production mobile suits don't incorporate a PS system? Would it be that expensive?
That's the standard Gundam conceit - a feature of a prototype that's too expensive to implement in line models. I think that the better question is, if Phase Shift is too expensive to implement, then why do they bother putting it in new prototypes? There's no in-universe explanation that makes sense, so we have to fall back on the fact that lots of Gundam conceits bear no relationship to how the real world works.

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Look, all I know is he got his hands on an StG 44 then produced a rifle with a similar exterior design and more noteably the exact same gas system.
The recoil action of the AK-47 is very different from that of the StG44, so why do you say that they use the "exact same gas system"? If you were to apply that charge to a Soviet weapon, the Simonov SKS would be a much better choice. Despite appearances, the two are very different mechanically. Moreover, the StG44's design philosophy is incompatible Soviet doctrine, so there'd be little point in reverse-engineering it.
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Old 2007-08-12, 03:10   Link #59
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That's the standard Gundam conceit - a feature of a prototype that's too expensive to implement in line models. I think that the better question is, if Phase Shift is too expensive to implement, then why do they bother putting it in new prototypes? There's no in-universe explanation that makes sense, so we have to fall back on the fact that lots of Gundam conceits bear no relationship to how the real world works.
Actually, there is one believable explanation. The development of phaseshift was unfortunately matched by the mass-implementation of energy weapons. By the time it was possible to put PS on every unit, the level of protection PS could offer in the battlefield had already been dramatically reduced. Every man and his dog had a beam weapon by then.
That's why it wasn't economical to put PS on grunt units at the end of the day.

(That's in contrast to the UC universe, where the expensive force-field technology only block energy weapons. Since energy weapons still does far more damage than conventional arms, there is a reasonable trade-off for using either weapon types. However in CE there isn't any real reason to use physical weapons at all, unless you are fighting under water. Beam weapons was really all you need.)
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Old 2007-08-12, 08:46   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Actually, there is one believable explanation. The development of phaseshift was unfortunately matched by the mass-implementation of energy weapons. By the time it was possible to put PS on every unit, the level of protection PS could offer in the battlefield had already been dramatically reduced. Every man and his dog had a beam weapon by then.
That's why it wasn't economical to put PS on grunt units at the end of the day.
What I meant was that, since they already knew that Phase Shift Armor wasn't economical, why would they bother putting it on newer prototypes like Impulse? In-universe, prototypes are still supposed to be test platforms for new technologies, so why go to the expense of adding unique equipment that they already know will be impossible to implement?

The other side of the equation is that I don't think that Phase Shift Armor is pointless at all; just because most people are implementing beam weaponry doesn't mean that an enemy will change all of their weapons to beams. Even in Destiny, there are still lots of conventional weapons around. And if the Cosmic Era universe were portrayed more realistically, Phase Shift Armor will also provide almost total protection from infantry attacks and the like.

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(That's in contrast to the UC universe, where the expensive force-field technology only block energy weapons. Since energy weapons still does far more damage than conventional arms, there is a reasonable trade-off for using either weapon types. However in CE there isn't any real reason to use physical weapons at all, unless you are fighting under water. Beam weapons was really all you need.)
This is one of the few areas of UC technology that I find more realistic than its Cosmic Era counterpart.
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