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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 74 69.16%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 20 18.69%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 7.48%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 1.87%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.93%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.87%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-07-23, 11:30   Link #301
octoberasian
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The following is just theory after reading all the posts here and some thoughts that came to me after watching Ep.17.

Regarding Type-0 Subaru and Ginga, would the following be true then?
Spoiler:

Then, if the above holds true, would the following be possible as well?
Spoiler:


Hopefully a lot more gets explained later on... @_@
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Old 2007-07-23, 11:30   Link #302
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Who were those leaders? Were those administrated worlds? Anyway that simply means they weren't careful enough. TSAB can build "space stations" hanging between dimensions - why conduct some dangerous research on a heavily populated planet?
The funny thing is, all those planets mentioned by Hayate and Fate had research labs of Scagliety on them. Not the local government. He willingly risked entire planets just for the sake of his experiments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Then our points of view are different.
What I find amusing is that right after that you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Yes, an obstacle is an obstacle, whtever it is.
So they're not mindless, berserking droids, but they can't tell the difference between a possible enemy and a harmless little child. To me, that means that they are mindless, berserking droids, and to me, that means that Scagliety is not trying to minimize casualties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Said destruction was one of those objectives. He's nice enough to provide the possibility to evacuate personnel.
10 seconds before the attack starts. That's like saying to someone "watch your step" right before you push them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Well, Project F isn't exactly a weapon project...
Erio and Fate are begging to differ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
But, he is offering his illegal technological expertise to the highest bidder. Unless he has hidden evil plans with Relic/Material which we still know jack about, he seems to be pretty business-like in how he deals with his technological variety.
Offering your illegal tools to the highest bidder means you are also offering them to those with evil intentions, and those on the other side of the law. I don't see many armies sell their spiffy jets t unknown people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Basically, if TSAB stops their crock-minds, and made a deal with him, things may you know...turn for the better, considering how understaffed things are.
Considering the guy attacked them with no warning, who would trust him to keep his side of the bargain?
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Old 2007-07-23, 11:31   Link #303
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Here's an idea, DON'T attack them. For what reason does he need RF6 out of the way other than to further his own greed?
Why do you assume it is pure greed? And remember, he does have a reason for attacking RF6, because they happened to be holding what he needs for his project.

I am beginning to understand, Chaos, that you are one of those who holds an absolute value on human life. If a human live is saved, it is worth holding back an entire society's potential progress. That might make you a nice human, but not a very good government leader.

You might note that he managed to do in the RF6 HQ without a single confirmed kill. He could just have arranged #10 to go in there and Heavy Barrel everything (since she wasn't doing much after her first shoot) - since Vivio is supposed to be able to survive such things, they can just pick her up after everything is flattened. There isn't a single person left in RF6 HQ that could stand up to heavy barrel. Instead, he sends two of only 12 people (looks like 2 of the more decent combat units at that) and many many drones to do a sweep.

Take the viewpoint of Scarlietti for a second (assume he isn't just a madman). His invention is to change the world for the better. A bunch of retard conservatives are standing in his way and indoctrinating everyone. Given that the comparison is between the benefit of entire worlds and the deaths of a few people, it is entirely possible, if you are an utilitarian, to do a valid computation that will suggest frying the few people if it comes down to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The funny thing is, all those planets mentioned by Hayate and Fate had research labs of Scagliety on them. Not the local government. He willingly risked entire planets just for the sake of his experiments.
If I remember correctly, those planets were rather uninhabited. That suggests he is doing his best to preserve human life.

Quote:
So they're not mindless, berserking droids, but they can't tell the difference between a possible enemy and a harmless little child. To me, that means that they are mindless, berserking droids, and to me, that means that Scagliety is not trying to minimize casualties.
Even with the best, most professional equipment of the TSAB, it is apparently very difficulty to detect potential energy. MGLN is a world where 8 year olds can be AAA-ranked mages, yet that ability can be next to undetectable unless they activate it. It is a technological constraint.

I also can't remember any incidents where they attacked little 5-year old children, so maybe they do have a detection system.

The one time they supposedly attacked civilians is in the StrikerS comic. Even then, nobody really knows what happened. All they heard was that they were "attacked"? How? Did the drones just approach? Did they fire into the rocks right next to their feet? Did they shoot them in the heart? For the matter, did the humans try to attack the drones on the approach and the drones turned on AMFs and started fighting back? Any of these would be termed "attacked" by an excitable human, but the implications are clearly very different. What we are sure of is that the archaeologists were quite fine when our heroines came to them.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-07-23 at 11:43. Reason: Extension.
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Old 2007-07-23, 11:35   Link #304
Nightengale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Erio and Fate are begging to differ...
Fate clearly wasn't made with the intention of inheriting Precia's magical talent which Alicia has none of it.

Elio clearly wasn't made to be a mage-weapon, but rather as a pair of couple's way to ease the pain of the actual Elio's death.

Both were born from trying to ease the pain of someone important dying, not to be living weapons. Sadly, Fate was too different from Alicia, while Elio got jacked away by some ugly evil scientist until Fate came to the rescue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The funny thing is, all those planets mentioned by Hayate and Fate had research labs of Scagliety on them. Not the local government. He willingly risked entire planets just for the sake of his experiments.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was not a single mention that Scaglietti was the one behind those abandoned research labs. Drones, yes. Sentoukijin, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Offering your illegal tools to the highest bidder means you are also offering them to those with evil intentions, and those on the other side of the law. I don't see many armies sell their spiffy jets t unknown people.
Monopoly.
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Old 2007-07-23, 11:43   Link #305
An Hero in Disguise
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I don't believe this, "Weren't careful enough" ? Why not just DON'T do it in the first place, that's the most safest by far.
Why not just get rid of ANY technology that could appear dangerous then? Ignoring the danger isn't going to make it disappear. Learning the source of it possibly can.

Quote:
Enough said.

Once again, enough said.
Yeah, if Doc was kind and sweet he'd never achieve what he has now.

Quote:
Here's an idea, DON'T attack them. For what reason does he need RF6 out of the way other than to further his own greed?
He needed Vivio for some reason. And destroying RF6 base would make it harder for them to retaliate - simple logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
No way, not after what he pulled.

Maybe before the attack, but after? No government body would work with the very man that had attacked them without warning or reasons.

It's like paying terrorist to share their toys and secrets after bombing a military base.

EDIT:

Somebody take over for me...I got school tomorrow....
Unlike modern terrorists he ACTUALLY HAS SOMETHING TO OFFER, not just makes threatening demands. He actually has superior technology to trade for his freedom of action. Comparing him with a simple terrorist is WRONG.
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Old 2007-07-23, 11:51   Link #306
Jimmy C
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To the people arguing that Scaglietti may have good intentions, don't you people get it? The attack was an advertisment! Do you for a second think he doesn't know his customers won't use his wares as bloodlessly as he did?

On other matters:
If Scags intends to carry out the next line of the prophecy, it gives a glipmse into this part of his plan. The successful destruction of the TSAB fleet and Main HQ would leave all TSAB worlds adminstered worlds defenceless. The local governments would turn to someone, anyone to supply a new defense force. Someone like him. A few years of experience with non-magical weapons, perhaps he can convince people to repeal the restrictions on the development of non-magical technologies. Of course, this supposes that those governments would forgive him for destroying their defenses in the first place...
An alternative would be to sell his wares to would-be world conquerors and rebel groups in the wake of the destruction he causes. After they take over their worlds, he can make all kinds of deals that can further his research, ethics be damned. Those people would have less reservations about using non-magical technology also. It would lead to the same result, worlds where non-magical technology are tolerated and can develop. Does he care that worlds that come about like this are unstable and seldom last long? Somehow I don't think so.
Where does Vivio and the Relics fit into all this? I don't know, but the Numbers call her a "vessel" and they are looking for the "King". It seem to me that Scag's plan here is to put the "King" into the "vessel". I doubt Vivio as she is would continue to exist that happens.
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Old 2007-07-23, 11:58   Link #307
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Science is a VERY BIG field, what could he be doing for the good of the people, that he CAN'T TELL them?

WHY can you trust such a man?!
I'm not trusting or not trusting him so much as I'm interested in what he has to say.

I'm sorry to break it to you, Chaos, but there are often times when a people's indoctrinated repulsion to a field of research makes it unwise to mention it. Nuclear power, for example, is treated with near phobia. The more so with various forms of cloning. Despite the good possibilities of these techs, the phobia makes it hard to continue to research them, especially the latter. Many of the objections are based more on the Gut than the Brain. Thus, it may be wise to be a bit quiet about things.

Quote:
A one minute speech, to explain how many minutes of violence and destruction?

Do you think the men and women under siege would just shrug it off?

"Our lives were in danger because you want to prove a point?!"
Actually, it was only ~20 minutes of destruction. The battle seemed to be more or less real time. It was a very effective demonstration of the possibilities of Scarlietti's technology.

Subjectively they won't. Objectively, however, they know that if Scarlietti wanted to, most of them will be DEAD. This will give them something to think about.

Their lives. Well, most of their lives actually weren't in a whole lot of danger.
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Old 2007-07-23, 12:02   Link #308
An Hero in Disguise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The funny thing is, all those planets mentioned by Hayate and Fate had research labs of Scagliety on them. Not the local government. He willingly risked entire planets just for the sake of his experiments.
The worlds we were arguing with Chaos about were supposedly destroyed completely by the fault of their leaders' not too careful research of LL. You're talking about the uninhabited worlds where Doc built his facilities, which didn't suffer any significant damage when said facilities got destroyed for whatever reason. Those are different things. And this proves that Doc is careful unlike some other morons.

Quote:
So they're not mindless, berserking droids, but they can't tell the difference between a possible enemy and a harmless little child. To me, that means that they are mindless, berserking droids, and to me, that means that Scagliety is not trying to minimize casualties.
OMG if they were berserking there wouldn't be a need of a Relic to cause massacre of innocent people. And even in all known Relic cases no clear evidence of human casualties exists. And YES, anything that's willingly obstructs the way to the targeted object is a threat. Ignoring it is stupid.

Quote:
10 seconds before the attack starts. That's like saying to someone "watch your step" right before you push them.
Your point could be valid if anybody who didn't oppose Doc's forces directly got harmed.

Quote:
Offering your illegal tools to the highest bidder means you are also offering them to those with evil intentions, and those on the other side of the law. I don't see many armies sell their spiffy jets t unknown people.
LOL, it's the society's fault if those with evil intentions have resources to afford top-class weaponry. Armies don't sell their jets because they're armies. In our world simply there aren't any independent high-tech weapon manufacturers like Doc.

Quote:
Considering the guy attacked them with no warning, who would trust him to keep his side of the bargain?
Once he shows how weak is TSAB they'll have to trust him.
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Old 2007-07-23, 12:03   Link #309
Nightengale
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Well, I don't think Scaglietti has good intentions, but from a different standpoint which disregards ethics, he does have some point. Whether or not that point will be valid depends on how far the producers want to screw with Jail, and to be honest, they're not even trying to make him remotely likable, as opposed to his Numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by octoberasian View Post
The following is just theory after reading all the posts here and some thoughts that came to me after watching Ep.17.

Regarding Type-0 Subaru and Ginga, would the following be true then?
Spoiler:

Then, if the above holds true, would the following be possible as well?
Spoiler:


Hopefully a lot more gets explained later on... @_@
Well, for one, Jail was one of the baseliners for Project F. And the Numbers didn't say anything about wanting to take Fate and Elio away, but rather they were asking Fate to cooperate and join them since she's well...technically Jail's daughter in a way, due to Project F which he was a major part of. Which of course, Fate doesn't give a damn.
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Old 2007-07-23, 12:05   Link #310
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
He successfully avoided any deaths during all the known events his weapons were involved in.
"Casualties were avoided by the defending party" does not equal Scagliety avoiding them. Besides, remember Ginga and Subaru's mother? They were killed by a 'combat android' and guess what's in Scagliety's group?

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Also there was a statement here that Doc didn't control the Drones and let them go on rampage: first - it still never caused any casualties among innocents; second - in Ep.17 it seemed like he had control over the Drones whennecessary after all.
First: Casualties were avoided, yes, but no thanks to Scagliety

Second: That is a burner, isn't it? Perhaps the only order he can give is a "go out" "come back" order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Why do you think he wants to destroy it completely? Seemed to me he was more eager to turn the authorities to his side.
By bombing them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
It's an imaginary scenario to show that there will be no necessity for someone to forgive his crimes in case he emerges victorious.
"History is writen by the victor."

Still, that is no proof that Scagliety is a good guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
OMG, yes, of course, yes. Nothing should hold the progress back. Who do you think is going to judge what kind of research is allowed or not? Nuclear weapons is only one side of a medal called nuclear power for example. And so on.
Exactly why such research was outlawed, and the relatively clean magic was introduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
You sound like it's as easy as making a wooden pole to go and hit peoples' heads with it.
Scagliety does not have a large army, and yet he has built his own private force of combat cyborgs. Yes, I do think it is rather easy once you have the knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
If somebody with not so good intentions has enough resources to create a nuclear bomb for example it's not the bomb's inventor's fault, OMG.
So that means we should all go out and invent even more lethal weapons? After all, if someone abuses them, hey its not my fault. Milions die, but hey, it's not my fault. I invented it, but it's not my fault.

Could you honestly live with that? Knowing milions died because of something you invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I am beginning to understand, Chaos, that you are one of those who holds an absolute value on human life. If a human live is saved, it is worth holding back an entire society's potential progress. That might make you a nice human, but not a very good government leader.
Nor does disregarding human life make you a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You might note that he managed to do in the RF6 HQ without a single confirmed kill. He could just have arranged #10 to go in there and Heavy Barrel everything (since she wasn't doing much after her first shoot) - since Vivio is supposed to be able to survive such things, they can just pick her up after everything is flattened. There isn't a single person left in RF6 HQ that could stand up to heavy barrel. Instead, he sends two of only 12 people (looks like 2 of the more decent combat units at that) and many many drones to do a sweep.
Did you see the damage? About a good 50% of the building is flattened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Take the viewpoint of Scarlietti for a second (assume he isn't just a madman). His invention is to change the world for the better. A bunch of retard conservatives are standing in his way and indoctrinating everyone. Given that the comparison is between the benefit of entire worlds and the deaths of a few people, it is entirely possible, if you are an utilitarian, to do a valid computation that will suggest frying the few people if it comes down to it.
But who is to decide that? It's easy to say it as a third party, but imagine if your familly is the one standing in the firing line. Then all of the sudden it becomes 'inhuman murder'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If I remember correctly, those planets were rather uninhabited. That suggests he is doing his best to preserve human life.
'underdeveloped' not uninhabited. Earth is underdeveloped too, he could have done those experiments here and blown us to pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I also can't remember any incidents where they attacked little 5-year old children, so maybe they do have a detection system.
They attacked harmless archeologists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The one time they supposedly attacked civilians is in the StrikerS comic. Even then, nobody really knows what happened. All they heard was that they were "attacked"? How? Did the drones just approach? Did they fire into the rocks right next to their feet? Did they shoot them in the heart? For the matter, did the humans try to attack the drones on the approach and the drones turned on AMFs and started fighting back? Any of these would be termed "attacked" by an excitable human, but the implications are clearly very different. What we are sure of is that the archaeologists were quite fine when our heroines came to them.
*sigh* allright allright, I'll upload the pages.

Spoiler for the pages:

Now note that in the first page, there is no sign of our heroes whatsoever. The drones are advancing on the archeologists and the archeologists alone.

In the next page, Nanoha blocks the beams which were heading for the archeologists. Note: The archeologists. This means that the archeologists were being targeted and shot at by the drones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Fate clearly wasn't made with the intention of inheriting Precia's magical talent which Alicia has none of it.

Elio clearly wasn't made to be a mage-weapon, but rather as a pair of couple's way to ease the pain of the actual Elio's death.

Both were born from trying to ease the pain of someone important dying, not to be living weapons. Sadly, Fate was too different from Alicia, while Elio got jacked away by some ugly evil scientist until Fate came to the rescue.
And yet... both have abnormally high magic potential, even though they 'oficially' were not made for the purpose of being weapons.

Strange, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was not a single mention that Scaglietti was the one behind those abandoned research labs. Drones, yes. Sentoukijin, yes.
At the time all they knew was that the drones were behind them, they did not know who was behind the drones, which was Scaglietti. In other words: Scaglietti was behind those labs.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Monopoly.
My point exactly. Why would you allow something that dangerous fall into the hands of the average john-doe?
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Old 2007-07-23, 12:07   Link #311
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
To the people arguing that Scaglietti may have good intentions, don't you people get it? The attack was an advertisment! Do you for a second think he doesn't know his customers won't use his wares as bloodlessly as he did?
You will notice it was an ad targeted at the TSAB as well as the others.

Quote:
A few years of experience with non-magical weapons, perhaps he can convince people to repeal the restrictions on the development of non-magical technologies.
Which might be a good thing. There is no reason to believe magic and non magic technology cannot be developed in parallel.

Quote:
It would lead to the same result, worlds where non-magical technology are tolerated and can develop. Does he care that worlds that come about like this are unstable and seldom last long?
Why do you assume that worlds with non-magical technology are inherently less stable than those using magical technology. In fact, that might be Scarlietti's question.

Fate once mentioned that conventional weapons are weapons that put the ability to destroy in the hands of children. This is an UTTERLY laughable statement coming from her. In the real world, conventional weapons are protected by more and more safeguards as they climb in power. Nuclear weapons are protected by Permissive Action Links so only 1-3 people can authorize their use, and the chances of a child actually being able to fire the weapon approaches zero. In contrast, at 8, she was a walking Weapons Platform. Obviously, Terran History wasn't Fate's strong subject while she was studying in Seisho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Your point could be valid if anybody who didn't oppose Doc's forces directly got harmed.
Just to note. RF6 was given 5 full minutes to retreat before the bombing starts. It was stated. That's actually pretty generous. Especially if you try taking the viewpoint that we are talking two enemy armies (even if I assume one of the armies is from a Rogue State), not a "Police Force" vs a "Criminal". Looking from that viewpoint, making any effort not to kill civilians already puts Scarlietti above Bomber Harris or Curtis LeMay (and we don't consider them evil). Efforts to not kill enemy soldiers even before they had surrendered makes him almost a SAINT.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-07-23 at 12:12. Reason: Extension
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Old 2007-07-23, 12:16   Link #312
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk
You will notice it was an ad targeted at the TSAB as well as the others.
It was probably a wide-specturm broadcast. Do you really think he's seriously entertaining the idea of orders from the TSAB?

Quote:
Why do you assume that worlds with non-magical technology are inherently less stable than those using magical technology.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was worlds that are born through conquest and rebellion are unstable in the long run. It doesn't matter whether these worlds are magical or technological. The important part is people.
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Old 2007-07-23, 12:45   Link #313
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
"Casualties were avoided by the defending party" does not equal Scagliety avoiding them. Besides, remember Ginga and Subaru's mother? They were killed by a 'combat android' and guess what's in Scagliety's group?
Well, OK, that makes one. But you don't know what happened. Don't make it sound like the only possibility is that Scarlietti's android sneak attacked Subaru's mom. If Subaru is any indication, most likely, her mother charged the combat android, which took defensive action, which ended up with a death.

Quote:
First: Casualties were avoided, yes, but no thanks to Scagliety

Second: That is a burner, isn't it? Perhaps the only order he can give is a "go out" "come back" order.
He also seemed able to hand out a "Stop Attack and Hold" from his warning. Call it humanitarian or call it sarcastic self-gloating, he did give the command and 5 minutes grace. The last time I remember anyone giving a deliberate grace period to evac casualties in a firefight without anyone surrendering was General Bittrich in Market Garden. I think most people thought Bittrich was being pretty nice when they saw the scene in A Bridge Too Far.

Quote:
By bombing them?
By showing that he has something to offer, too. Somehow, a peaceful demonstration just won't have the same elan to it. Not to mention the wonderful TSAB authorities would probably arrest and destroy all of his peaceful creations as soon as they found out who made them. If he wants to make an impression, this is the way to go.

Quote:
Exactly why such research was outlawed, and the relatively clean magic was introduced.
Yes, and magic can be used for great destruction. Don't all the Lost Logias prove it? Let's ban magic as well and go back to animal power.

Quote:
Scagliety does not have a large army, and yet he has built his own private force of combat cyborgs. Yes, I do think it is rather easy once you have the knowledge.
What happened to expertise and money?

Quote:
So that means we should all go out and invent even more lethal weapons? After all, if someone abuses them, hey its not my fault. Milions die, but hey, it's not my fault. I invented it, but it's not my fault.
The point is that it is impossible to predict the flip side of technological development.

Quote:
Nor does disregarding human life make you a good one.
No evidence he's particularly disregarding either. In fact, there were several signs now and then he is showing at least some concern for human life, regardless of whether you think his actions were actually proper.

Quote:
Did you see the damage? About a good 50% of the building is flattened.
Yes, but slowly. And everyone was alive because the building was "eaten into" at a slow pace. Heavy Barrel would have flattened the building in a few shots, in which case no one would have lived.

Quote:
But who is to decide that? It's easy to say it as a third party, but imagine if your familly is the one standing in the firing line. Then all of the sudden it becomes 'inhuman murder'.
Yes, but that is actually a subjective viewpoint, not an objective one. The problem of judgment is a problem. However, with Scarlietti, from his POV, that his invention will bring great good is a given. In that case, one can argue it is moral cowardice not to sacrifice a little to get a lot just because your own name will be sullied.

Quote:
'underdeveloped' not uninhabited. Earth is underdeveloped too, he could have done those experiments here and blown us to pieces.
There is no visual sign of inhabitation. The Japanese was IIRC (and can be deduced to most likely be) mikaihatsu (not yet developed) - which is actually closer to uninhabited (not including non-intelligent life, which obviously do exist). Further, there is no sign of any accident having happened in all those labs. Safety is not the only reason why you might want to put labs in desolate places.

Quote:
Spoiler for the pages:

Now note that in the first page, there is no sign of our heroes whatsoever. The drones are advancing on the archeologists and the archeologists alone.
I've actually seen these before, but all right ... I see that they are not shooting, just advancing. I see no reason why they can't start shooting at this stage if they want to kill the archaeologists - considering they are huddling in a ball, a targetting solution can't be a challenge.

Quote:
In the next page, Nanoha blocks the beams which were heading for the archeologists. Note: The archeologists. This means that the archeologists were being targeted and shot at by the drones.
Ah, I see. I notice that they are shooting only when Nanoha entered the stage. I propose what really happened is that Nanoha, flying in with her S-class power, causes the drones to register her as a threat - since mages don't emit much normally, if they are emitting S-class power, they are very likely a threat. Since Nanoha is flying in and the Type 1 drones are mostly groundbound, they have limited elevation/depression capabilities. Thus, she pretty much enters their firing arcs just as she lands in front of the "attacked" archaeologists, thus creating the picture you see.

Even if I as a drone was originally intent on killing the archaeologists, if a S-class target is coming, I'm definitely stopping my attack and engaging that more dangerous threat. So I'd say it is reasonable to say they are targetting Nanoha, not the archaeologists in that picture

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And yet... both have abnormally high magic potential, even though they 'oficially' were not made for the purpose of being weapons.

Strange, huh?
The two both seem pretty multifunctional. High magic potential has both peace and war applications (see Hayate's power in fighting fires - she did the work of a whole battalion).

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It was probably a wide-specturm broadcast. Do you really think he's seriously entertaining the idea of orders from the TSAB?
No evidence of this. What we are sure of is that he at least stuck his hand out to the TSAB, though maybe he isn't serious (but we don't know).

Quote:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was worlds that are born through conquest and rebellion are unstable in the long run. It doesn't matter whether these worlds are magical or technological. The important part is people.
The U.S was born by Rebellion and expanded substantially by Conquest (of Native American lands, and the occasional Spanish colony IIRC). I don't see it being particularly unstable.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-07-23 at 12:51. Reason: Clarification
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:06   Link #314
Fabien
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
his comments about wanting to get his hands on "the remnants of Project F" doesn't exactly suggest that he views Fate and Elio as humans first
Are they human, by the way?
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:10   Link #315
Fabien
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If it's worth it, then that's for Scaglietti to justify.
He's got nine more episodes to do that.
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:20   Link #316
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, OK, that makes one. But you don't know what happened. Don't make it sound like the only possibility is that Scarlietti's android sneak attacked Subaru's mom. If Subaru is any indication, most likely, her mother charged the combat android, which took defensive action, which ended up with a death.
Are you kidding? Seriously I'm wondering if it's just a big joke topic being hidden. If we're using Subaru as indication we can say said android assaulted Subaru's aunt or something to that degree and her mother stepped in. I'm quite sure it was just wondering around minding it's own polite business when mean old Subaru's mother came to pick a fight.

Quote:
He also seemed able to hand out a "Stop Attack and Hold" from his warning. Call it humanitarian or call it sarcastic self-gloating, he did give the command and 5 minutes grace. The last time I remember anyone giving a deliberate grace period to evac casualties in a firefight without anyone surrendering was General Bittrich in Market Garden. I think most people thought Bittrich was being pretty nice when they saw the scene in A Bridge Too Far.
I'm more inclined to believe at best this was just to make himself look like a nice guy. Do you seriously think the injured like Vice or anyone else defending these places are going to be in any condition to evactuate? Even those not hurt trying to drag them out of a building is going to take time. Not sure the last time you tried to get out of a large building that was falling apart but that takes a bit more time than that.
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Yes, but slowly. And everyone was alive because the building was "eaten into" at a slow pace. Heavy Barrel would have flattened the building in a few shots, in which case no one would have lived.
Well one I think he only has a few heavy barrels to throw around and kept that for the attack on headquarters. Anyways the difference between blasting the chopper (which didn't seem to bother Mr. I care about Life) and a building is the amount of time it'd take to go through it all for Vivio. Their Deep Diver was elsewhere and also it would take one long period of time to go through every bit. An assault of that kind could get rid of defenders and make it easier to track down Vivio to capture. Though of course I'm sure the Doctor had nothing but humanitarian reasons for not blasting it to shreds.

It's really something that one announcement suddenly makes him a justified and misunderstood person. Seems plenty want to believe the crazy laugh guy is just someone with an agenda for the benefit of humanity. Rather not get too much into this since it's a rather large headache to get through. Whatever he's really planning is going to be a pain for a lot of people. Though I'm sure Ginga and Vivio will be quite comforted knowing whatever the Doctor has planned is for a great cause.

Anyways I'm moving into more fun discussions since this will just go back and forth among the pro-do whatever the heck you want vs don't annihilate the society because you don't like things.

So am curious how especially the Subaru situation is going to be handled. It's possible she may have known about her background. Since it now makes sense why her and Ginga were being examined not by a doctor. Just how widely is this information known I'm wondering. Either way it'll be quite the shock to many when this gets out. Heck they could package it with the Erio Project F discussion to make things smoother haha .
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:22   Link #317
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk
By showing that he has something to offer, too. Somehow, a peaceful demonstration just won't have the same elan to it.
Again, by bombing them? If he wanted the TSAB's support, wouldn't a "demonstration" on their enemies be more productive? He wants the TSAB gone. Considering the suffering likely to be endured by the inhabitants of many worlds because of that, that simply cannot be considered "good".

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2007-07-23 at 13:33.
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:26   Link #318
FlameSparkZ
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Yeah, this episode rocked so much.

Spoiler for Observations:


Looking forward to the next episode
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:39   Link #319
Fabien
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Again, by bombing them? If he wanted the TSAB's support, wouldn't a "demonstration" on their enemies be more productive?
Does the TSAB have clear enemies?
The only one we know is Jail, and he's not likely to choose to be his own victim.
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Old 2007-07-23, 13:46   Link #320
Icarus
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This doesn't look like a business proposition, it looks more like a poorly-worded or purposely misleading excuse for a coup d'etat.
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