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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 74 69.16%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 20 18.69%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 7.48%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 1.87%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.93%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.87%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-07-24, 07:50   Link #461
Chaos2Frozen
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You misunderstand, I'm having fun here :3

The last few discussion threads were dull and boring, this one has gotten things stiring again! It's a race to convince these guys before canon proves my point.
It was alright for me, but then things get long and my steam is running out... I guess I'm just not up to epic battles

*Toss the torch*

Catch.
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Old 2007-07-24, 07:52   Link #462
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05 View Post
What did Tres and that other number say to Fate after their battle before running off?
something about the Doctor, but also Fate being a Project F result experiment and all.

this makes me think though at the end of this episode...is Scaglietti really the bad guy here?
Oh, he's a bad guy alright. Now we're just ascertaining whether or not he's an evil but calculative weapon-dealing businessman who's just demonstrating his goods, a scientist with hidden good intentions that involve breaking every life-related ethical practices, or just a fruitcake who's too high for his own good.

There's a lot of speculations left and right since we know nothing about his personal plans (( Relics/Vessel/King )), but from what is already layed out, we're discussing about it. It's easy to simply say "OMG HE IZ EBIL! He treats lives like toys, etc!" but where's the fun in that? It's all about looking beyond his portrayed "evil facade" and digesting the possible "neutralities" of what he's doing. It's easy to just think that Precia's just a crazy bitch who can't see what's in front of her and being delusional, but it's not irrational to see why she became what she became either.

And since my moonspeak sucks, there'll be errors, but this is about it.

Fate: Where the hell is Scaglietti? Why did he ignite this incident?
Tre: If you really wish to know, we’ll be willing to indulge it with you anytime.
Sette: Of course, that is only if you’re willing to cooperate and join us.
Fate: He is a criminal! And also of the worst kind!
Tre: Please don’t say such sad things. The Doctor, to you and that boy (( Elio )) is like your birth-father after all.
Fate: *angry face*
Sette: Your lives, because of the Doctor that planned and created the baseline for Project F, which is why…
Fate: SHUT UP!
Sette: Looks like it can’t be helped… We’ll meet again. At that time, hopefully everything can be explained properly…
Tre: Ah..and as you had already noticed… yes…you…cannot defeat us.
Fate: Ceh!

Oh, and they were being very polite in their tone and speech with Fate, while Fate was all angry!STFU on them.

Thisguy, help plz with clarification and error check. :3
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Old 2007-07-24, 07:55   Link #463
Fabien
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
He clearly laughed and smirked, calling his 'toys wonderfully created indeed" during the episode where Teana was being emo, when Lutecia and the Doctor conversed. Considering he was just talking on how the Drones were junk, he could only be referring to Lutecia
But then again, why would he say that about Lutecia now, since she didn't do anything in that episode? She merely noticed that Jail's drones were flying, which doesn't take more than binoculars to see.
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:03   Link #464
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Oh, he's a bad guy alright. Now we're just ascertaining whether or not he's an evil but calculative weapon-dealing businessman who's just demonstrating his goods, a scientist with hidden good intentions that involve breaking every life-related ethical practices, or just a fruitcake who's too high for his own good.

There's a lot of speculations left and right since we know nothing about his personal plans (( Relics/Vessel/King )), but from what is already layed out, we're discussing about it. It's easy to simply say "OMG HE IZ EBIL! He treats lives like toys, etc!" but where's the fun in that? It's all about looking beyond his portrayed "evil facade" and digesting the possible "neutralities" of what he's doing. It's easy to just think that Precia's just a crazy bitch who can't see what's in front of her and being delusional, but it's not irrational to see why she became what she became either.

And since my moonspeak sucks, there'll be errors, but this is about it.

Fate: Where the hell is Scaglietti? Why did he ignite this incident?
Tre: If you really wish to know, we’ll be willing to indulge it with you anytime.
Sette: Of course, that is only if you’re willing to cooperate and join us.
Fate: He is a criminal! And also of the worst kind!
Tre: Please don’t say such sad things. The Doctor, to you and that boy (( Elio )) is like your birth-father after all.
Fate: *angry face*
Sette: Your lives, because of the Doctor that planned and created the baseline for Project F, which is why…
Fate: SHUT UP!
Sette: Looks like it can’t be helped… We’ll meet again. At that time, hopefully everything can be explained properly…
Tre: Ah..and as you had already noticed… yes…you…cannot defeat us.
Fate: Ceh!

Thisguy, help plz with clarification and error check. :3
I always thought the numbers were a lot like familiars when it came down to their loyalty. Doesn't this look a lot like what Arf says back in the first season? "In return for being able to live through her power, I will give all my life to protect her"
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:08   Link #465
Tormenk
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Perhaps what the doctor did was help individuals with injuries or disabilities a second chance at life with the cybernetic enhancements whereas they could have remained disabled or helpless the rest of their lives, albeit being a test experiment. Maybe that's why they seem to maintain some form of loyalty towards him.
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:09   Link #466
Fabien
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
He clearly laughed and smirked, calling his 'toys wonderfully created indeed" during the episode where Teana was being emo, when Lutecia and the Doctor conversed. Considering he was just talking on how the Drones were junk, he could only be referring to Lutecia, which means that Lutecia was Scaglietti's creation, that he sold off.
BTW, in that episode 9, why did Division 6 engage and destroy Jail's drones?
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:10   Link #467
Ultima_Rasengan05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Oh, he's a bad guy alright. Now we're just ascertaining whether or not he's an evil but calculative weapon-dealing businessman who's just demonstrating his goods, a scientist with hidden good intentions that involve breaking every life-related ethical practices, or just a fruitcake who's too high for his own good.

There's a lot of speculations left and right since we know nothing about his personal plans (( Relics/Vessel/King )), but from what is already layed out, we're discussing about it. It's easy to simply say "OMG HE IZ EBIL! He treats lives like toys, etc!" but where's the fun in that? It's all about looking beyond his portrayed "evil facade" and digesting the possible "neutralities" of what he's doing. It's easy to just think that Precia's just a crazy bitch who can't see what's in front of her and being delusional, but it's not irrational to see why she became what she became either.

And since my moonspeak sucks, there'll be errors, but this is about it.

Fate: Where the hell is Scaglietti? Why did he ignite this incident?
Tre: If you really wish to know, we’ll be willing to indulge it with you anytime.
Sette: Of course, that is only if you’re willing to cooperate and join us.
Fate: He is a criminal! And also of the worst kind!
Tre: Please don’t say such sad things. The Doctor, to you and that boy (( Elio )) is like your birth-father after all.
Fate: *angry face*
Sette: Your lives, because of the Doctor that planned and created the baseline for Project F, which is why…
Fate: SHUT UP!
Sette: Looks like it can’t be helped… We’ll meet again. At that time, hopefully everything can be explained properly…
Tre: Ah..and as you had already noticed… yes…you…cannot defeat us.
Fate: Ceh!

Oh, and they were being very polite in their tone and speech with Fate, while Fate was all angry!STFU on them.

Thisguy, help plz with clarification and error check. :3
yea he is the bad guy, but in previous posts, some people were really debating on whether he was doing this under good intentions to flush out the corruption of TSAB.
and thanks for the conversation translation between Fate, Tres and Sette.
They were being nice at saying it, but at the same time, I guess Fate took it as a taunt to her if she's willing to join them because of Scaglietti being the baseline of Project F and him being the creator of Fate and Erio.
Well, looks like after this episode, we'll get some information filled episodes again until the final battle starts...theres only 9 episodes left and how this will end is still very very vague.

Anyways, Lutecia now has Vivio, now what does she have do with relics and everything thats been going on...
The future of Ginga, whether she holds something important as being a TYPE-0 or will she get brainwashed and go against TSAB in the next battle.
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:12   Link #468
Fabien
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Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05 View Post
this makes me think though at the end of this episode...is Scaglietti really the bad guy here?
Well, this is the subject of half of the 20 pages of posts in this thread...
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:15   Link #469
DmonHiro
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Forgot to add something to my last post about the numbers. The forwards kicked Wendy's and Nuove's butts bigtime, and the forward are about A+. Also, Cinque requested backup to fight Ginga, cause Ginga was too powerfull for her.


PS: Just noticed, but Agito can be REALLY cute. Her jumping up and down yelling "Danna, this is not the time to praise her!!" was UBER cute
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:31   Link #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
It's all about looking beyond his portrayed "evil facade" and digesting the possible "neutralities" of what he's doing.
fair point...too bad he doesnt have any...
for his character he is just going for his own goals...but like what you said about precia who is disillusioned so is Dr Spaghetti (with maybe a bit more intelligence than precia but what he is doing is effectively the same but using a more thought out plan)...he thinks what he is doing is right and maybe so from an advancement point of view...but his actions are no doubt twisted and evil...no merits whatsoever even if it means killing of that general ass hole on the ground...in the TSAB is corrupt then what Dr spaghetti is doing is no way better (and from my point of view even worse)..."violence cannot be solved with more violence"
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:32   Link #471
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
Forgot to add something to my last post about the numbers. The forwards kicked Wendy's and Nuove's butts bigtime, and the forward are about A+. Also, Cinque requested backup to fight Ginga, cause Ginga was too powerfull for her.


PS: Just noticed, but Agito can be REALLY cute. Her jumping up and down yelling "Danna, this is not the time to praise her!!" was UBER cute
Forwards are more like B rank, The only thing that gives them a edge is the advantage in the numbers, and also Tea's trick.

Scaglietti have been giving me Precia vibs for a while now, While there may be a twist but I see it as slim to none, so I'm quite happy to see him bites the dust there. Team Lutecia is however a completly different matter and I could see them go on Ace's side for whatever reason for the final battle.
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:33   Link #472
Burner of Anime
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Originally Posted by Tormenk View Post
Now what would the good doctor have in mind for his Type 0 specimen? aka Ginga.
Anyone see "Boxing Helena" This is something that'll make Dan Kim happy >_<

Looking at Subaru, I'd say the girl would be a good study on how to increase the power output of the Numbers. Maybe how to successfully integrate high level cyborg parts into an already formidable mage.
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:38   Link #473
An Hero in Disguise
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I am still not convinced that there were no victims whatsoever, we did see a lot of TSAB grunts going against the gadgets, and we never saw them again.
And I'm not convinced there were. Not even a single grunt being shot directly or something like that. I'd be contradicting myself but I really wanted to see some casualties on TSAB side. Yet there weren't.

Quote:
Nice comparison, but flawed in a way. Say that there were no victims in the episode, you were in the car, you would have missed the pedestrian, smashed your car into his house, drove a few circles in his living room, grabbed a little girl and drove back out. On your way out, you stop by the pedestrian and say: "Hey, I just demolished your house because you were obstructing me, and kidnapped a little kid because I need her. No, I won't tell you what for r what my goals are, but since I am doing it for a humanitarian reason it's okay. I could have klilled you. Bye."

That's what you would have done.
LOL, thanks for entertainment. I can come up with twisted examples of many things related to "good guys" too, do we need this?

Quote:
The problem is that he isn't a daddy looking for his daughter, he is looking for his tool. Big difference there. Should we hand him Fate and Erio while we're at it?
Until we see something actually happening to Vivio and/or Ginga I'm not so eager to say that Doc's going to treat them bad. Numbers don't complain at least.

Quote:
The main issue with that point is that they are immoral.

However, there are a couple of Death Star sized flaws in your comparison. For example, the Empire was opressing worlds, bombing cities, executing those who disagreed, forcefully drafting people, discriminating women and aliens, building weapons of mass destruction and using them on pasifist worlds. To compare the TSAB with the Empire is laughable.
I really wonder how TSAB managed to dispose of all the conventional weapons present before the ban. It's very hard to believe that everybody gave them up voluntarily.

Quote:
And what happened to all the TSAB grunts that were attacked on the streets? We never saw those again, but seeing the damage Zafira and Shamal took, you can't possibly say they came out unscratched.
Yeah, what happened to them? You don't know as well. I didn't see anybody hurt by the drones unless said person tried to damage them or not let them reach their goal actively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@Keroko

Just let it die... Maybe they'll forget about it after chasing butterflies >.<

If the Ion Canons can't get through to them, nothing else created by man ever will...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You misunderstand, I'm having fun here :3

The last few discussion threads were dull and boring, this one has gotten things stiring again! It's a race to convince these guys before canon proves my point.
It will be hillarious if canon proves my point.
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Old 2007-07-24, 08:50   Link #474
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Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
And I'm not convinced there were. Not even a single grunt being shot directly or something like that. I'd be contradicting myself but I really wanted to see some casualties on TSAB side. Yet there weren't.
Shamal, Zafira, Vita, Rein and Ginga were all casualties. Isn't that enough?

Quote:
Until we see something actually happening to Vivio and/or Ginga I'm not so eager to say that Doc's going to treat them bad. Numbers don't complain at least.
Ginga being lifted up by her hair after the brutal beating she'd received isn't really a sign that she'll be treated well but that whole line is really a red herring. Regardless of how they're treated after the fact, Vivio and Ginga been abducted against their will. You don't think Vivio would rather be with Nanoha and Fate?
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Old 2007-07-24, 09:02   Link #475
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Shamal, Zafira, Vita, Rein and Ginga were all casualties. Isn't that enough?

Ginga being lifted up by her hair after the brutal beating she'd received isn't really a sign that she'll be treated well but that whole line is really a red herring. Regardless of how they're treated after the fact, Vivio and Ginga been abducted against their will. You don't think Vivio would rather be with Nanoha and Fate?
Casualties as in death. Shamal, Zafira and everyone in the RF6 would be dead if they were serious. Same goes to the important honchos in the GC room. Sei could just throw in a paralyzing gas bomb, and get any combat Number to do the honors. Like the missing No.II.

There's no way that Jail, or anyone can conquer and defeat RF6/GC without injuries. The fact that he mostly (( I'm thinking there'll probably be several accidental deaths or 50, like near explosions, or debris hitting the head, or consumed by fire )) did so while holding back the killer force is already something. Meh, it's just an anime-excuse for RF6 to lose rationally without killing off Carim, Hayate, Regius, Shamal, Zafira, Vice, Griffith, etc anyway.

Well, there's like a 99% chance Jail will give her new hands. Whether or not she'll be treated "well", well...that depends, but I'm seriously hoping they don't pull the brainwashing card, and cook up a decent excuse for her to really join Scaglietti for real. For 30 times teh drama. And Jail's a bad guy. He does what he wants, the way he wants it. Vivio is clearly VERY important to his unknown plans, since it was a primary objective alongside bloodless victory, and since there's no way TSAB will just "hand her over", he resorts to kidnapping. Simple as that. That's the thing of being a villain. Regardless of good or bad reason, they mostly screw morals and ethics in the long run.
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Old 2007-07-24, 09:13   Link #476
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Casualties as in death. Shamal, Zafira and everyone in the RF6 would be dead if they were serious. Same goes to the important honchos in the GC room. Sei could just throw in a paralyzing gas bomb, and get any combat Number to do the honors. Like the missing No.II.
Casualties include personnel lost through deaths, injuries or capture and MIAs. Inflicting more casualties wouldn't be a very good way of winning over TSAB members.

Quote:
There's no way that Jail, or anyone can conquer and defeat RF6/GC without injuries. The fact that he mostly (( I'm thinking there'll probably be several accidental deaths or 50, like near explosions, or debris hitting the head, or consumed by fire )) did so while holding back the killer force is already something. Meh, it's just an anime-excuse for RF6 to lose without killing off Carim, Hayate, Regius, Shamal, etc.
That seems reasonable.

Quote:
Well, there's like a 99% chance Jail will give her new hands. Whether or not she'll be treated "well", well...that depends, but I'm seriously hoping they don't pull the brainwashing card, and cook up a decent excuse for her to really join Scaglietti for real.
I hope brainwashing isn't involved. It would be so... I can't really see Ginga wanting to fight against her sister, father and the TSAB unless her mother is involved somehow.
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Old 2007-07-24, 09:17   Link #477
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Casualties as in death. Shamal, Zafira and everyone in the RF6 would be dead if they were serious. Same goes to the important honchos in the GC room. Sei could just throw in a paralyzing gas bomb, and get any combat Number to do the honors. Like the missing No.II.
Kinda depressing to think, huh? Utter defeat. I wonder how the are going to go now... As far as I've seen, I've never seen an anime with a military that really shows complete competence because of the 'getting sneaked up on so easily' cliche.

Quote:
There's no way that Jail, or anyone can conquer and defeat RF6/GC without injuries. The fact that he mostly (( I'm thinking there'll probably be several accidental deaths or 50, like near explosions, or debris hitting the head, or consumed by fire )) did so while holding back the killer force is already something. Meh, it's just an anime-excuse for RF6 to lose rationally without killing off Carim, Hayate, Regius, Shamal, Zafira, Vice, Griffith, etc anyway.
That's one way of putting it. Well, the central base of operations was toast in a matter of 20 minutes, anyway. Quite an achievement for the antagonist side.

Quote:
Well, there's like a 99% chance Jail will give her new hands. Whether or not she'll be treated "well", well...that depends, but I'm seriously hoping they don't pull the brainwashing card, and cook up a decent excuse for her to really join Scaglietti for real. For 30 times teh drama. And Jail's a bad guy. He does what he wants, the way he wants it. Vivio is clearly VERY important to his unknown plans, since it was a primary objective alongside bloodless victory, and since there's no way TSAB will just "hand her over", he resorts to kidnapping. Simple as that. That's the thing of being a villain. Regardless of good or bad reason, they mostly screw morals and ethics in the long run.
Jail: I AM YOUR FATHER!
Ginga: NOOOOOOOOOO~!

But we all now how that went...
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Old 2007-07-24, 09:23   Link #478
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Sorry, lots of replies to answer to... here goes

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Brilliant, my question on why do people trust Jail is met with the reply of 'Just because other people don't'. and "Well, I don't really..."

Just brilliant.
Can you be more specific in why you think such replies are problematic? It is a valid defense to say that your question does not have any bearing on whether our points are correct.

Quote:
And I can't believe I have been asked as well about what Jail had done to deserve being called a criminal, perhaps you have skipped the first few episodes and jump straight here?
I remember smuggling (which means the TSAB defined the "illegal" substances so they had to be "smuggled"). There's also some experiments related to life manipulation IIRC (again, the TSAB defined this as illegality). Beyond that I must admit I hadn't watched Ep6 for a long time, but since you have a better memory than I do, and you hadn't brought any really damning points up, well...

Quote:
@arkhangelsk

When I said get rid of, I don't mean just losing their jobs. I mean literally executed. I don't know what backward world you grew up in, but that is considered immoral.
Does the mention of Stalin mean nothing to you?

Why is that? Justify this position. They were in the positions of the highest respect and responsibility. That the consequences for failing such responsibilities are equally great should be a given.

Quote:
And they weren't at war to begin with, Jail had made that first move without warning. You keep saying rules of war rules of war, WHEN THE HECK WERE THEY AT WAR BEFORE THAT?!
Convenient that you define the "War" period at your discretion so as to maximize the Doctor's guilt.

You can take many, many points in the past. You can start from Ep12 when all the numbers showed up and they tried to blast the helicopter out of the sky and range all the way back to Ginga's mom.

Further, even if I grant that Ep16 was the start of the war, a sneak attack is about the extent of the Doctor's crime. Not a very big one in terms of military strategy.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
But some applications aren't worth the cost to deploy. It's mentioned in ep15's prolog that the technology has a high failure rate and serious ethical violations. That's why research into it was halted. When magic can duplicate most of their Inherent Skills with higher success rate and fewer concerns, the technology is really redundant and unneccessary. Unless of course, you're seeking to create a situation where magic become unusable.
Whatever you want to say about the Doctor's morality, it is difficult to deny he's probably the Top Expert in this field at the moment, being an active practitioner rather than relying on ancient experimental data respoken by people who aren't expert at it. So far, he seems to have a hand in Ginga, Subaru, those two's mom, Fate, Erio, 12 Numbers, maybe Lutecia and Zest, and probably Vivio (IMO, see next paragraph). I don't see any sign of serious failure so far. In fact all indications suggest that the Doctor has successfully resolved the reliability problem.

Ethical problems are not only transient in time, but are left unstated. If they are anything similar to the kinds of objections held to cloning currently (the only reference we have to go on), I'm sorry to say IMO those don't hold much water.

You are going in the wrong direction. Try: The Inherent Skills are matching at least some of the abilities of even top ranked (ultra-rare) mages. This offers hope to the vast majority of people who aren't top-ranked mages (for example, the 95% below AAA ranks). This is potentially an equalizer equivalent to the Colt revolver! Definitely something worth pursuing.

Quote:
Evidence against Scaglietti being Vivio's creator: She was being shipped in a life-support pod when the drones intercepted the transport. I suppose you could argue that Scags was shipping her to his lab, but doesn't his conversation with Uno in ep10 sound strange if that was the case? "was it a Bureau mage or did we get lucky?", "seems to be the latter", "I'll chase after it immediately". To me, he sounded like someone who was given the opportunity to pick up treasure that had fallen out of a truck than someone who was retrieving something he felt was rightfully his in the first place. Most importantly, his own troops weren't 100% sure if Vivio was the "material" they were seeking in ep12. "IF that material is the right one..." If Scaglietti made her, you'd expect him to know, yes? Even if he made several, he ought to be able to tell if this was the one by now.
Interesting points, but the idea of Vivio not being made by Scarlietti simply opens up another can of worms, starting with "Who made Vivio", leading to "If the Doctor didn't make her, why would he even know about a little girl who is his best hope for his plans."

Personally, my guess is that the Doctor made Vivio and maybe a few others, then lost her for a bit (maybe she was stolen by the TSAB?). Now he's reacquired.

Quote:
You still haven't answered the question: Do you believe Scaglietti's words as opposed to his actions or not? I'll accept that you're taking on a contrarian viewpoint for the sake of argument, but from what you've seen so far do you honestly believe you can entrust the future of multiple worlds to this person? Stop evading the question!
The question's relevancy had not even been demonstrated, and answering it either way seems to only lead to a chance for ad hominems. However, to answer your question, I would believe that there is a significant possibility the doctor is not a mere criminal, but a revolutionary.

Quote:
That's just your bloodlust talking. If you think rationally about it, such beheaviour creates a climate of fear. It makes generals less inclined to take risks and initiative, lest they be blamed when their actions don't pan out. With the threat of death for failure, it's far better to just follow orders to the letter and let your superior get blamed for failure.
1) That's a practical argument against the idea, not a moral one. Why is it moral that a commander (like Yamamoto after Midway) get away scot free (or just reassigned to a slightly less plum post) when his incompetence led to the un-necessary loss of his entire army?

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That's survivable when you have a competent supreme commander, but competent SCs don't waste generals like this. It was worse for the Soviets because Stalin refused to believe Hitler would betray him, refused to reinforce his eastern front and executed officers who tried to tell him Hitler would attack, then he executed his generals because they could not defend his territories because he would not allow them to regroup to attack. Two main reasons Stalin won in the end was Hitler was even less competent than him and the USSR still outnumbered the Nazis even after all the losses due to Stalin's own stupidity. A wiser move in such situations would be sideways promotions to positions where they could do less damage or retirement if they're old enough.
1) Stalin's Eastern Front was the Far East Military District, facing Manchuria. You must mean the Western.
2) A problem with Stalin, at the beginning, is that he doesn't really know "competent" from "incompetent", and so he goes for killing the ones who lose. Considering the poor state of the army, it wouldn't have mattered whether he was executing generals for failure or not. Later, he got some clues that sometimes losing is not 100% correlated to incompetence, and so he won.

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So says the person who advocates executing defeated generals?
They are not created easy, but every military commander has a second in command ready to take their position in the event they fall. Succession protocol.
1) Since when have you seen the deputy for any TSAB officer. We've seen aides and subordinate officers, but no deputies.
2) The talent inside a headquarters is known as the General Staff. It is generally made of the brighter half of the military, and has years of experience and specific knowledge with the problems of controlling the entire force. A hastily assembled replacement staff simply cannot match that efficiency.
3) There's a reason why second in commands are not in command yet. It is a backup scheme, but assuming they've been doing promotions right, substitutions of multiple commanders with their deputies will cause a significant drop in the ability of the command staff.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Leaving aside that none of the RF6 members are willing to kill unneccessarily, they needed information on their opponents. If they could capture someone for interrogation, so much the better. It wasn't a "kill or be killed" or "take no prisoners" situation.
How much information did they get due to their decisions? ZERO. If they had beaten their opponents to death, at the very least they'd have a clue as to what it takes to kill them. Further, they could have been more decisive and may have taken one hurt but alive. Instead, now they are all free.

It is reasonable to expect people that can do S-power shoots won't die lightly. There's little reason to hold back until they are unconscious, bleeding, and missing arms.

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Considering that Deep Diver allows Sein to pass through solid matter, I doubt the hammer would have any effect on her at all.
I'm saying if the solid matter she's hiding in gets suddenly dislocated, the effect would be like a depth charge. At the very least, with the material she was hiding in broken into discontiguous pieces, she'd like be forced to surface, so you can hit her body for real. It certainly is better than just futilely hammering the floor with Graf Eisen at a normal setting.

She can hide under the ground. That's not the same as the idea that she is resillent to all normal attacks. Or Vita can try Flameslag (or whatever was the trick against Nanoha in Ep9 Nanoha A - melting the ground Sein is hiding in will certainly at least annoy her.

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That at least, is not Hayate's fault. She's not responsible for GC's security arrangements and Regius would just laugh at her if she said anything.
1) It is hard to believe no improvements will be made, even with that idiot Regius if he had been told about the diving abilities.
2) Hayate made no improvements on her own base either. I don't see any improvements to deal with for example Heavy Barrel's S-level blasts. If they had something like that they might have held out better. For that matter, she should have left one of the aces there, as others have suggested. It is her own responsibility her HQ got flattened.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Under conventional appliances, perhaps. We're not sure how far Jail has developed that technology to its success rate. Since it is a banned technology, TSAB may not be clear on how much it had developed in the shadows. Although Jail doesn't have a large number of them himself, so far it seems to have a fairly high success rate since it's not like Jail keeps 100 test tubes. Since he's so confident of selling it, it mustn't be that hard.

Spoiler for Hidden in Spoiler to Save Space:
Nightengale, you spoke much of what I wanted to say.

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Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
Yes, and a very nasty one. She has the defensive power and transport ability of a Mid-Child mage, the close combat skill near equal the Velka knights and her primary attack consist of a physical shockwave that is likely machine based.
Well, it is not clear about that. In Ep1, she mentioned many things that she cannot do. This may be a result of all the machinery getting in the way. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
Well....the numbers have some sneaky abbilites, but all in all anyone of the aces can do everything all the numbers can do(maybe except Deep Diver and Silver Curtain). Wide Impulse, Slaughter Arms, Rumble Detonator, Heavy Barrel, etc, can all be replaces with magic attacks. There's not even one number so far that can stand her own agains Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, Vita or Signum. If/when Subaru lears to controll her IS, she's be kicking number ass for sure. Caro has a fucking flying forteress who just happenes to be Bahamut's big brother. Let's see the numbers fight Voltaire, see how THAT goes.Erio was actually ON PAR with Garyu befor he was attacked from behind. Let's not forget ve still have Chrono, Across, Carim in the background, whos power is not even known (but it's known there at least S rank). So, right now in Spagetti's ranks, the only REAL powerfull mages are Zest and Lutecia. The numbers have to gang up on a target to have a chance. So I'm betting Scag needs Ginga and Vivio to make something REALLY powerfull (at least S rank)
I wouldn't be so optimistic. 3 and 7 weren't even decisively engaged, but they seemed pretty confident they can beat Fate. They might even do well in a 2 on 2 because the Numbers specialization becomes more of a advantage as the size of the fight increases so they can employ combined arms rather than just covering up the limitations of their specialization. Besides, getting to AAA level combat ability, with only limited resources, is still pretty darn swell.

All Voltaire did was bust some drones. No decisive combat with Numbers. How did you even guess his superiority?

Why are you so confident of Subaru. By the time she was in a position to destroy Cinque, she was half destroyed herself. Had Cinque retreated actively under cover of her yellow shield to buy distance (a tactical error on her part, or a limitation, or a failure to understand a berserk target because this is her time with one?), she would have bought time for an additional attack that may well have disabled Subaru completely before she can finish closing. If she wasn't in berserk mode and thus not feeling any pain, she should have gone down about 2 Rumble Detonators ago.

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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
Forgot to add something to my last post about the numbers. The forwards kicked Wendy's and Nuove's butts bigtime, and the forward are about A+. Also, Cinque requested backup to fight Ginga, cause Ginga was too powerfull for her.


PS: Just noticed, but Agito can be REALLY cute. Her jumping up and down yelling "Danna, this is not the time to praise her!!" was UBER cute
Personally, it looks more like she's just calling them in to ensure positive control of the situation. You will notice they suffered no injuries worth talking about so the victory is likely an easy one. The forwards, by stretching themselves, temporarily confused Wendy and Novu, but I don't really see them winning. You will notice the forwards were actually looking to disengage.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Do I see.... Star Wars comparisons? [Illidan]You are not prepared![/Illidan]

I am still not convinced that there were no victims whatsoever, we did see a lot of TSAB grunts going against the gadgets, and we never saw them again.
Yet you couldn't seek one. It is clear some were hurt, but we can't identify a single killed. Why do you insist on sticking on crimes that you aren't even sure existed?

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The problem is that he isn't a daddy looking for his daughter, he is looking for his tool. Big difference there. Should we hand him Fate and Erio while we're at it?
He might have a claim to them on this basis as well.

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The empire would have been just as incompetent. They have no regard for human life, and a political structure that completely relied on the force using emperor. The Vong did not exist in the force, what would you think would happen? The emperor would be like a sitting duck to Vong assasins.
Spoiler for Star Wars related section:
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And that excuses Scaglieti for treating her like one? Especially since he ripped her away from people who did -in fact- treat her as a someone?
Considering you had never even SEEN Scarletti and Vivio in the same frame, I don't know how you can immediately come to this conclusion.

Nanoha and Fate are not as aware of this little runt's secrets as Scarlietti, so the conditions aren't even the same. In my analogy, it'd be comparing the actions of nations who don't even know your body has unobtanium and/or what its so good for versus the actions of nations that do. Besides, not being as nice as the really mushy Nanoha and Fate is a long way from evil.

We aren't even sure whatever Scarlietti plans will even claim little Vivio's life. For all we really know all would happen is that she's imbued with The Power, she'd do what Scarlietti wants and .. she'd be living happily ever after with Scarlietti.

If the mere crime of using someone as a tool is completely indefensible, why is Graham's use of Hayate so often forgiven?

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The main issue with that point is that they are immoral.
Who, the Rebel Alliance?

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However, there are a couple of Death Star sized flaws in your comparison. For example, the Empire was opressing worlds, bombing cities, executing those who disagreed, forcefully drafting people, discriminating women and aliens, building weapons of mass destruction and using them on pasifist worlds. To compare the TSAB with the Empire is laughable.
Spoiler for Star Wars section:
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And what happened to all the TSAB grunts that were attacked on the streets? We never saw those again, but seeing the damage Zafira and Shamal took, you can't possibly say they came out unscratched.
Shamal and Zafira are only AA or so, which is good but not divinely or anything. They are clearly quite alive, so I find it likely those guys lived. Further, it is clear that Inherent Skills have variable power levels, so it is entirely possible to hold back.

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Again, major flaws in the comparison. While they did create chaos by killing the Emperor, the Alliance offered a motivation, they offered a reason, they offered an explanation.

But most of all: They offered an alternative.

Scaglieti offered a motivation. That's all.
Spoiler for Star Wars section:
3) Scarlietti at least offered the alternative of peace (buying his tech) and his motivation. And all in one minute.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You misunderstand, I'm having fun here :3

The last few discussion threads were dull and boring, this one has gotten things stiring again! It's a race to convince these guys before canon proves my point.
Don't worry. Me too. It is why I'm participating.
Spoiler for Star Wars section:
At least this time, if my position lasts till Ep26 (just a few more weeks), I can rest assured no new evidence will come to decisively crush my position.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-07-24 at 09:29. Reason: Put SW related sections in spoilers so uninterested people don't have to read them
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Old 2007-07-24, 09:56   Link #479
An Hero in Disguise
Human
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 29
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Shamal, Zafira, Vita, Rein and Ginga were all casualties. Isn't that enough?

Ginga being lifted up by her hair after the brutal beating she'd received isn't really a sign that she'll be treated well but that whole line is really a red herring. Regardless of how they're treated after the fact, Vivio and Ginga been abducted against their will. You don't think Vivio would rather be with Nanoha and Fate?
They're the kind of casualties which only prove that Doc had no intention to kill anybody (and I hoped that the cast could be reduced a little )

She kinda asked for it, it's possible that they asked her nicely but she refused. And Vivio hardly can decide what's best by herself at her age anyway. As soon as I know why Doc needs Vivio I'll be able to say if her abducting was worth it.
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Old 2007-07-24, 10:51   Link #480
Nemesis
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Hmm,i wonder,who is smuggling the relics in the first place?I think there may be another party involved in this whole mess.

Well im just hoping for Somehow Erio's past was fitting a bit in this big picture
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