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Old 2006-01-10, 17:58   Link #1
MysticNinjaJay
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[Manga] The 3rd Mangekyo Sharingan User....

After going back and viewing some episodes that I needed to redownload, I've come across an episode with a translation that may cripple the theory of Itachi espousing the possibility of a 3rd Mangekyo Sharingan User.

The theory itself began with the dialogue on this page....

Spoiler:


Itachi: If you open your eyes to the truth...including myself there will be three people who can handle the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Now ofcourse this quote implies either,

1. Like Itachi there is already someone who has obtained the Mangekyo Sharingan

-or-

2. Besides Sasuke there is another person with the potential to unlock the doujutsu and including Itachi and that other person Sasuke makes 3 people who could handle the doujutsu.

Even though this theory would appear to have concluded with the fact that Kakashi has some form of Mangekyo Sharingan Itachi made it clear to Itachi that he was incapable of using the full extent of Uchiha's power, he said only an Uchiha could obtain the extent of the bloodline limit.

It has been theorized by several people that this 3rd Mangekyo Sharingan user might be Sai, the enigmatic new team member of Team Kakashi who has been assigned to the team through the ANBU "root" division, he has been routinely stated as phsyically resmbling Sasuke and it has been speculated that he is an Uchiha.

However the translation I am referring to that may dispute the existence of a 3rd Sharingan user altogether is this quote:

[AnimeOne fansub; Episode 131] Itachi: If you awaken it, there will be three people, including me, who have ever used the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Alot of people must have overlooked this. If this trnaslation is more accurate all Itahci is saying is that before himself there has been only one person who has ever used mangekyo Sharingan and including himself if Sasuke awakened it that would make three.

So if that's true than there is not a 3rd Uchiha Mangekyo Sharingan user, or atleast according to the anime translation it hasn't been stated that there would be.
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Old 2006-01-10, 18:03   Link #2
ri0
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But Itachi is talking about the past... What he sais is: "Until now there are three people if you awaken it. "
Doesn't imply that there aren't others who are still capable

Don't think this way... just saying that it may be possible
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Old 2006-01-10, 18:15   Link #3
MobiuS
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ShuriJay ... I had that exact same impression till all this talk on the "3rd user".
I thought there was one in the past, and something happened to him. Itachi looked up to the guy and his father did not like that. So he told Itachi not to follow in Itachi's path. Which might have been Itachi's connection to the Akatsuki. And taught him such high-level MS jutsus. But of course, I discarded the idea quickly with the avid belief that ALL UCHIHAS ARE QUEER! Jking. But yeah ... I had thought along those lines ... that the 3rd user may not be alive.

He was in the past. Probably Itachi's mentor? Also the reason why Itachi's dad warned Sasuke not to follow in Itachi's steps. Since he knew that Itachi and the mentor were leaning heavily to the dark side.
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Old 2006-01-10, 19:02   Link #4
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Maybe the 3rd user wasnt even alive to teach itachi, maybe the 3rd user was a old friend of his dads who went into the darker side of the sharingan leaving scrolls behind and itachi found them .. could be itachis grandfather for the matter i mean sasukes family seems to be the strongest out of the lot its not that hard to believe the 3rd user is related to them somehow.

How about his dad was in a normal genin team 2 guys and a girl and 1 of the guys fell in love with the girl they became really close friends but when she rejected him he killed her .. there dad tried to stop him but he escaped and swore revenge on the clan and sasukes dad ... jus trying to make it dramatic
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Old 2006-01-10, 19:36   Link #5
gibits
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The 3rd user has already been shown in the manga. Well technically he's the 2nd since we don't know if Sasuke has YET.
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Old 2006-01-10, 19:39   Link #6
Rachy
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Quote:
The 3rd user has already been shown in the manga. Well technically he's the 2nd since we don't know if Sasuke has YET.
If you mean
Spoiler:
, Theres someone else because itachi mentioned it in the past.
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Old 2006-01-10, 19:44   Link #7
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The 3rd user = Sai. Sai knows Oro cause Oro tried once to take over his body but didnt succeed somehow. Maybe because Sai Hasnt got enough potential. And Sais brother was killed by Oro or Itachi. I swear it thats the truth. And I think Konoha hid Sais existence and everybody believes Sasuke and Itachi are the last Uchihas left alive. Sai said it himself. I have no feelings. If you can kill the person who is closer to you then you will have the courage to kill anyone. But then again thats only my theory.
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Old 2006-01-10, 20:02   Link #8
Rachy
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Quote:
The 3rd user = Sai. Sai knows Oro cause Oro tried once to take over his body but didnt succeed somehow. Maybe because Sai Hasnt got enough potential. And Sais brother was killed by Oro or Itachi. I swear it thats the truth. And I think Konoha hid Sais existence and everybody believes Sasuke and Itachi are the last Uchihas left alive. Sai said it himself. I have no feelings. If you can kill the person who is closer to you then you will have the courage to kill anyone. But then again thats only my theory.
but then sai would of been like 6 or so when he got the MS if itachi already knew about it ... and sai has shown no signs of being a uchiha at all .. just dark hair and narrow eyes doesnt make him one.
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Old 2006-01-10, 21:53   Link #9
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uchiha rave
If you mean
Spoiler:
, Theres someone else because itachi mentioned it in the past.
From the translation it says "can handle the MS" not "that has the MS". By the time the Uchiha massacre happened Kakashi already had Obito's eye.

Sai does seem plausible but at this point I think Kakashi fits the bill.
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Old 2006-01-10, 22:04   Link #10
Rachy
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Quote:
From the translation it says "can handle the MS" not "that has the MS". By the time the Uchiha massacre happened Kakashi already had Obito's eye.
Well you have a point there, But how are there scrolls about it and how did itachi even find out about it ? doesnt seem right ...
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Old 2006-01-10, 22:16   Link #11
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Sai is a genius after all. Maybe Itachi was really confident Sai would kill his best friend. Who knows Sai kept everything a secret? Plus we dont know shit about him except he looks a lot like an Uchiha. I really believe Sai is the 3rd MS user. Remember when I said Kakashi has got MS? Nobody believed me now look at it. Sai is definitily the 3rd MS. Just remember I said it.
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Old 2006-01-10, 23:22   Link #12
MysticNinjaJay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ri0
But Itachi is talking about the past... What he sais is: "Until now there are three people if you awaken it. "
Doesn't imply that there aren't others who are still capable

Don't think this way... just saying that it may be possible
What translation are you using?

It doesn't appear as though this response follows anything I said, the point of the thread was about the translations.

Did Itachi state that there was potentially a 3rd sharingan user or did he state differently?

From the two translations I have supplied he is saying two VERY different things.

I can't read kanji, and don't understand Japanese, if any of you can that would be more helpful but for the rest of us the best we can do is speculate and look at what makes more sense.

If AnimeOne's translation is correct then Itachi is stating that only one person before him has ever used Mangekyo Sharingan and including himself should Sasuke awaken it that makes three.

Now here is where thigs get tricky. It has been well established that Mangekyo sharingan is a known ability atleast to someone as priviledged as Sasuke and Itachi's father.

This is what Sasuke's father says to him when he asked him about different sharingans in the manga:

Spoiler:


Father: ]In the long history of the Uchiha, only a few have developed that doujutsu. And it iis said that it can only be awakened under legendary conditions.


This is what the same dialogue says in the anime:

[AnimeOne Episode 130]Father: There is a doujutsu that is above Sharingan called Mangekyo Sharingan. In the long history of the Uchiha, it is a legenday doujutsu which has appeared in only a few. And it's said that there is a special condition in order to obtain it.

The translations are virturally the same and they clearly indicate that Mangekyo Sharingan has been accessed by atleast a few Uchiha in the past which would contradict Itachi's statement that only one before him has ever done it.

Also a bit of speculation but my guess is that either Itachi found the secret scrolls to unlocking Mangekyo and decided to try it on Shisui or he and Shisui fought a duel for the Mangekyo Sharingan and Itachi came out on top, which is why they both skipped the secret meeting on that fateful day.


We have never seen Sasuke speculate on the existence of another Uchiha so it stands to reason that this is a mistranslation and there was never a potential 3rd user just Itachi talking about the rarity of the ability, either Itachi is exaggerating when he implies that only one other person besides him has unlocked the Mangekyo or Kishimoto created a small plothole.

I'm grateful for the trnslating teams of the series, without them most of use would not understand the manga at all but I hate when they make glaring mistranslations like this, assuming it is a mistranslation on their part.
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Old 2006-01-10, 23:32   Link #13
MobiuS
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Itachi personally knows the 3rd one. Its not Kakashi. Its probably another Uchiha. An older person. Sorta like a mentor / instructor. Just like Naruto has that dude that always buys him ramen.
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Old 2006-01-10, 23:49   Link #14
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Spoiler:
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Old 2006-01-10, 23:58   Link #15
Illuyankas
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Itachi may know OF the third user, and Kakashi had the eye by then, so yeah, I'd say it's Kakashi by the evidence so far. Wasn't Kakashi in ANBO?
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Old 2006-01-11, 03:35   Link #16
AkatsukisApprentice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay
[AnimeOne Episode 130]Father: There is a doujutsu that is above Sharingan called Mangekyo Sharingan. In the long history of the Uchiha, it is a legenday doujutsu which has appeared in only a few. And it's said that there is a special condition in order to obtain it.

The translations are virturally the same and they clearly indicate that Mangekyo Sharingan has been accessed by at least a few Uchiha in the past which would contradict Itachi's statement that only one before him has ever done it.
.

It's a tough job to translate manga's, but to confirm or deny a speculative argument or statement from a manga by watching the anime is dangerous. You are right in saying that the translations are similar, but trying to justify a statement like that, should be avoided hehe Kishi's words are golden, and final.

I would take the safe road and take what Kishi has written as the base, if there are more Mangekyo users, it means (if we speculate..) that Itachi doesn't know all the users or does not expect the remaining people with Uchiha eyes to obtain the mangekyo sharingan. How can we say for 100% fact that Itachi does know all the users? Probably hasn't got enough skill for the get mangekyo-information-no jutsu

I hope when the next time Itachi and Kakashi gets to fight each other, let's hope he divulges some information into the users/history.

( I wonder if Yondaime had Uchiha blood hehe Would explain a lot... Only kidding :P )
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Old 2006-01-11, 05:19   Link #17
animernq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay
Spoiler:


Father: ]In the long history of the Uchiha, only a few have developed that doujutsu. And it iis said that it can only be awakened under legendary conditions.


This is what the same dialogue says in the anime:

[AnimeOne Episode 130]Father: There is a doujutsu that is above Sharingan called Mangekyo Sharingan. In the long history of the Uchiha, it is a legenday doujutsu which has appeared in only a few. And it's said that there is a special condition in order to obtain it.

The translations are virturally the same and they clearly indicate that Mangekyo Sharingan has been accessed by atleast a few Uchiha in the past which would contradict Itachi's statement that only one before him has ever done it.
Actually Itachi doesn't say that only one person before him has achieved Mangekyo Sharingan (MS), he says that there will be three people who can use it if Sasuke masters it. Its possible that all but one of those who mastered MS before Itachi are now dead (possibly dying centuries ago). So what Itachi is saying isa that there will only be three living people who can use MS, not there has only been one person before him who can use it.

Its also possible that Itachi knows someone can use MS but does not know who they are. Which would explain why he killed all the Uchiha (to find the MS user). After failing to find the MS user Itachi let Sasuke live so that he could develop MS and be worth fighting, then set off to find the third MS user. This also explains why Itachi is suprised that Kakashi has MS.

Quote:
Also a bit of speculation but my guess is that either Itachi found the secret scrolls to unlocking Mangekyo and decided to try it on Shisui or he and Shisui fought a duel for the Mangekyo Sharingan and Itachi came out on top, which is why they both skipped the secret meeting on that fateful day.
Its most likely Itachi just killed Shisui, rather than dueled him, since Shisui's death was though to be a suicide and not an attack.

Quote:
We have never seen Sasuke speculate on the existence of another Uchiha so it stands to reason that this is a mistranslation and there was never a potential 3rd user just Itachi talking about the rarity of the ability, either Itachi is exaggerating when he implies that only one other person besides him has unlocked the Mangekyo or Kishimoto created a small plothole.
When Sasuke first saw Kakashi use the Sharingan during the Zabuza arc he though something like 'Could it be him'. Its possible that Sasuke has not looked for the third MS user because he wants to defeat his brother himself and has concentrated more on his training and avenging, than looking for the third MS user.
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Old 2006-01-11, 07:12   Link #18
MysticNinjaJay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPaladin56
Spoiler:
This is a manga thread buddy, you don't have to use spoiler tags.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
Itachi may know OF the third user, and Kakashi had the eye by then, so yeah, I'd say it's Kakashi by the evidence so far. Wasn't Kakashi in ANBO?
Itachi and Kakashi were both in ANBU and quite familar with each other, but remember Itachi clearly stated to Kakashi that Mangekyo Sharingan is not an ability he is capable of weilding because he is not an Uchiha, he doesn't have the bloodline to awaken the bloodline limit.

Ofcourse we know now that Kakashi has some form of Mangekyo Sharingan and during their "rematch" Kakashi made an insinuation that shocked Itachi, he most likely knows he has it but was in disbelief. So IF he was expecting there to be another MS user he certainly did not expect it to be Kakashi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkatsukisApprentice
It's a tough job to translate manga's, but to confirm or deny a speculative argument or statement from a manga by watching the anime is dangerous. You are right in saying that the translations are similar, but trying to justify a statement like that, should be avoided hehe Kishi's words are golden, and final.

I would take the safe road and take what Kishi has written as the base, if there are more Mangekyo users, it means (if we speculate..) that Itachi doesn't know all the users or does not expect the remaining people with Uchiha eyes to obtain the mangekyo sharingan. How can we say for 100% fact that Itachi does know all the users? Probably hasn't got enough skill for the get mangekyo-information-no jutsu

I hope when the next time Itachi and Kakashi gets to fight each other, let's hope he divulges some information into the users/history.

( I wonder if Yondaime had Uchiha blood hehe Would explain a lot... Only kidding :P )
Good points, I was hoping to illicit a response like this with the thread, some others seem a bit confused as to the subject matter.

I agree Kishimoto's words are golden, but remember when you are getting you info from a fan translation they are not always perfect, unless you can read perfect Japanese there is a margin of error with the manga translation.

Case in point everyone always talks about how Itachi feared Jiraiya when he and Kisame discussed abducting Naruto. This was based off one of the anime translations, somethng about if they fought they could only hope for a Double KO at best. The fansub I am familiar with says that they risk their lives by fighting Jiraiya and that if there were more Akatsuki it would not make a difference because he is that dangerous of an opponent, certainly different from insisting on a double KO, but, the Inane manga translation says something VERY different.

Spoiler:


Kisame: You can fight how and where you want, but I don't know...the time is wrong.

Itachi: Ah. To meet those two and kill them. It's a good place to fight. So they can't increase the number of people they have.


Not only is Itachi fully confident that he can beat Jiraiya in tis version of the convo but he talks about killing both of them (Jiraiya and Naruto?) in battle!

Ofcourse we know Itachi has no intention of killing Naruto and if he was so confident why did he hypnotize a woman to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto?

This is an example where the trnaslation in the mange simple doesn't follow the storyline logically. As it is not relevane to the this thread I don't wish to enter on debate about it but personally I think the anime translation saying that Itachi and Kisame could only hope for a Double KO against Jiraiya is in accurate. If that were the case why did Kisame ask Itachi why they were fleeing, as if the battle could continue? I think the translation where he states that they put their lives at risk is more accurate.

I hope you see what I'm talking about here. Sure the anime team as their own writers and they could screw up what Kishi originally wrote in the manga, the manga is 1st canon. But the translations of the manga and the anime can both be obscured by mistranslations.

So what makes more sense?

As much as I thought the theory of a 3rd MS user was interesting, the anime translation seems to make more sense to me. But both the anime and manga translations say that Sasuke's father told him multiple MS users have been present in the long history of the Uchiha, where as Itachi states that if Sasuke obtained it there would be 3 who have ever used it meaning there is only one person who has ever obtained the MS whether he is alive or some distant lgendary Uchiha ancestor.

It's a curious dillema.






Quote:
Originally Posted by animernq
Actually Itachi doesn't say that only one person before him has achieved Mangekyo Sharingan (MS), he says that there will be three people who can use it if Sasuke masters it. Its possible that all but one of those who mastered MS before Itachi are now dead (possibly dying centuries ago). So what Itachi is saying isa that there will only be three living people who can use MS, not there has only been one person before him who can use it.
Understand that I am discussing the alternative translation of the AnimOne episode as I carefully outlined in the first post. Again this is what THAT translation says.

[AnimeOne fansub; Episode 131] Itachi: If you awaken it, there will be three people, including me, who have ever used the Mangekyo Sharingan.


What this translation clearly implies is that if Sasuke were to awaken the MS he would become the 3rd person, including Itachi, to have ever done it. Clearly that means that only one person besides Itachi has done it and he is speaking pass tense on that event so this person has already done it.

Now for continuities sake that means that for this jutsu to have become legendary Itachi could not be the first to have done it, so someone else did it, their father states that MS is a legendary doujutsu that only a few have ever awakened. The only way this is possible is if by a few he was speaking causally and that only one person has done it or else Itachi was wrong. They can't both be taken literally and be correct or else their statements are conflicting.

Perhaps Itachi meant to say only in his lifetime has another MS user held the power.

Bottomline, the translations and Kishimoto's writing are somehow conflicting.

Either Itachi stated that there is a 3rd person who can handle MS or he didn't.

If the manga translation is to be taken literally then he did. The question is, was that translation correct, only a few on this board no for sure (or none at all but I'm sure I've seen a few people who can read Japanes here and help interpret the raw) and without their help for the rest of us we can only speculate on what makes more sense or who we choose to trust.


Its also possible that Itachi knows someone can use MS but does not know who they are. Which would explain why he killed all the Uchiha (to find the MS user). After failing to find the MS user Itachi let Sasuke live so that he could develop MS and be worth fighting, then set off to find the third MS user. This also explains why Itachi is suprised that Kakashi has MS.

That's pluasibe, however I doubt Itachi would kill his whole clan to find another MS user, it doesn't sound like that would be necessary. Itachi was well aware that Kakashi had the eye as they know each other either from being in ANBU or through reputation.

Itachi is more than likely shocked that Kakshi has the MS because he did not think someone without the Uchiha's advanced bloodline was capable of obtaining it as he told Kakashi in their first match. So I think it is looking more and more like there is no anticipated 3rd MS user and that the manga was mistranslated.

Quote:
Its most likely Itachi just killed Shisui, rather than dueled him, since Shisui's death was though to be a suicide and not an attack.
I agree, considering they were so close I just think would be interesting if Shisui was just as interested in killing Itachi as Itachi was him and that whoever one would get the MS. But such a battle wold make it difficult for the aftermath to be staged as a suicide.

He more than likely ambushed Shisui, killed him and staged his suicide.

Quote:
When Sasuke first saw Kakashi use the Sharingan during the Zabuza arc he though something like 'Could it be him'. Its possible that Sasuke has not looked for the third MS user because he wants to defeat his brother himself and has concentrated more on his training and avenging, than looking for the third MS user.
Yes, I thought about this too.

Spoiler:


Sasuke not only ponders why Kakashi has the Sharingan but ponders something else about him that is never clarified again in the series.

Maybe he wondered if he was part Uchiha, or the rumored 3rd MS user we have been wondering about.

Perhaps Kakashi was the rumored Copy Ninja he'd heard about somewhere? I doubt he is aware of what happened to Obito and speculated about that operation, Obito was just a kid who died before Sasuke was even born so I doubt this little operation was something to consider.

In any case there is indeed another MS user bedsides Itachi, that being Kakashi himself despite Itachi's contentions that this was not possible, but it is clear that if there was a potential 3rd that Kakashi is not who Itachi had in mind.

I don't think at this point that there is a need for a mysterious, potential 3rd MS user from Uchiha.

I doubt Sai is it despite his resemblance to an Uchiha and Sasuke himself.

If there was one there would probably have been another hint of it by now, but who knows it still something out there on the table.

I for one will not be holding my breath anymore waiting for it.
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Old 2006-01-11, 07:39   Link #19
MobiuS
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See, the Uchiha fam dont just randomly walk around with Sharingan on. So even if MS is achieved by someone, noone would know unless he chooses to let them.

Itachi is sure of another person having it. I figured Kish left it as a trump card to play whenver things got rough in the storyline. Bust out a third MS user. If he realizes he doesnt need the individual, we can be rest assured we wont hear of this matter again. But I have this burning feeling that the Leader = 3rd MS user = Itachi's mentor. I cant believe I stooped to the level of speculating such nonsense but right now its making so much sense to me I dont know what to do.
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Old 2006-01-11, 10:11   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

This is what Sasuke's father says to him when he asked him about different sharingans in the manga:

Spoiler:

This is an interesting piece of clue, seems to me that Itachi's dad already knew or at the very least speculated that Itachi has achieved Mangekyu. I'm begining to think people who are highly adopted to the Sharingan can tell when someone is capable of Mangekyu without actually witnessing it in use.

Another example would be when Kakashi fought with Itachi's clone. as far as I can remember Kakashi never used the MS. But yet he seemed to know Kakashi is now capable.

As for the subject, It's hard to understand Itachi, he has been the most vague to say the least when it comes to anything, as he barely speaks as it is, he almost talks with nothing but criptic clues and broken meanings.

It's still plausible that Kakashi is the 3rd usser, and that Itachi saying "you don't have blood and can't fully use the eye" wouldn't be in accurate, since Kakashi is still not even close to the ability of using the MS at it's peak. Itachi has used it 2 times in 1 day, plus Ameterasu before considering to rest as Kakashi nearly died with an in accurate result. (He intended to send Deidra to another dimension, not just his/her arm)

As for Itachi being surprised that Kakashi can use it, it's possible he didn't know who could use it, but someone informed him that there would be 3 and he is simply informing Sasuke what his been told.

ShurikenJay- damn bro that was a long one, but a very good read.
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