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Old 2004-01-19, 15:40   Link #41
LordBrian
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That's not my point, and I won't be drawn into a pointless discussion about which country speaks what language. Replace America with your English-speaking country of choice, for all I care.

My point is that if I call a certain anime series "hentai," people know what I'm talking about regardless if it's grammatically correct in Japanese. As I'm not speaking to a Japanese-language-oriented audience, I really couldn't care less how accurate my word choice is in terms of noun/adjective agreement. It may be more "true" to the Japanese language to call anything resembling ecchi or hentai "ero," but I will reach a wider audience by labeling it a certain way. So, in my perspective, until the term ero becomes popular to the point where I don't see the question "wtf does ero mean?" I won't consider it wrong to call a series hentai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1908
And I am hoping that this newer, more-updated term becomes more prevalent in the non-Japanese world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monir
Hoping would not do.
That's the reason I used the phrase in the first place, so I figure everyone's allowed to hope for whatever they want...
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Old 2004-01-19, 17:35   Link #42
Loki_Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Okay, let me get this straight. you don't want me to use the word "gaijin" because it sounds like "looking down on them." I accepted that.

Then you didn't want me to use the word "foreigners" because it sounds like "looking down on them." I accepted that as well.

Hence, I have been using the word "non-Japanese." But you don't want me to use that term either because it sounds like "looking down on them."

You don't want me doing that either. Please tell me then, what word shall I use that maybe feasible for me to write down when i explain stuff from a Japanese person's standpoint?

I take it that you are part hispanic. Let's say you want to explain the greatness of Latin American TV, Drama and movies. And let's say you are on an non-Latin American BBS board trying to explain the greatness of Director Robert Rodriquez's Mexican film "El Mariachi," influencing the Hollywood remake of "Desperado" starring Antonio Banderas. And let's say you are trying to tell people on that board (who are mostly non-Latinos who only watched Hollywood's "Desperado") about the original "El Mariachi." How would you try to explain to these people about "El Mariachi" in a long statement without using the term "non-latinos" or "non-Hispanics" or "non-Spanish speaking audience?" If you are going to explain something that is specific to certain region to someone not from that region, of course you are going to have to compare and differentiate by regional basis. It's like an American soldier going to Iraq and trying to "educate" the Iraqi council that "in America, we have civil rule and democracy...." Can all these be taken as being "looked down upon." From what I have been taken, most likely yes. But rest assurred, we all do that with no intention of doing such a thing.

From your standpoint, it may seem like I am "looking down upon you," from my view, I am giving you up-to-date Japanese info.

From a non-Hispanic standpoint, it may seem like they are being "looked down upon" by someone in a Latin American country, whereas he is just trying to giving them info on a Mexican director who should be highly recognized for influencing Hollywood movies.

From an Iraqi standpoint, they feel they are being subjugated by American presence, whereas the Americans are most likely just trying to give the Iraqis a chance to "succeed via democracy."

So, if you give me a nice, more gentle way that I should write, please tell me as I will compromise. However, in such differences of culture and language between Japanese and English, the simplest way to compare the two is to contrast as well.


P.S.: for some reason, I didn't like the anime version of GuriGuri. It had a whole different feel to it compared to the original PC game....it's quite hard to describe...the story was very similar, the setting was similar...hmm...

Well about using foreigner i never said nothing and if i where to explain something i would not say.......the non-mexican bla bla.I would just reffer as...other ppl, or something like that, not to always pick on that same term like saying.....NON-MEXICAN which would kinda sound like " your not mexican you cant understand you idiot, only mexicans can undertand" thats what that NON-JAPANESE may sound to many ppl here, well KJ i know the AMERCIAN CULTURE and JAPANESE is REALLY different, but Japanese manners, and MOE are not so different than in MEXICO, what you call MOE, in AMERICA they call MANNERS , in Mexico i dont have a word but its something we all KNOW and now how to handle, even if it may be painful for us, as long as the other person doesnt suffer.Its better one to suffer than 2.

I never told you anything about your MOE thingy, but just to let you know.....your not the only country that was thought that since childhood, and its not even tought, you must find it on your OWN, not all Mexicans will have that MOE you discribe such as not ALL Japanese feel that...I have a friend thats Japanese, and he is not LIKE you at ALL, you have good manners, your well respected from my point of view, and you love your culture.My friend does give a shit about his country, doesnt care about nothing that has to do with Japanese culture, he hates it. Not everyone is the same in Japan or Mexico. <------That was to just say about your MOE which you claimed a while ago that ALL japanese use that.

As for saying about your.......NON-Japanese. its ok, but i told you once and i will tell you again, to becareful with your words at times. "I have yet to understand the NON-JAPANESE PPL" things like that, we are all the same, just where raised in a whole different way.


PS....I still remember you once wrote in Japanese....... I HATE FUCKING FOREIGNERS THEY THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING BUT THEY DONT KNOW SHIT" even if you write in Japanese i will find what it is. You dont see me writing in Spanish to cuss ppl out here.Or i can even use a whole different dialect from the Mexican Indigena tribe (shit i beaerly know a few words but i can come up with something )

LOL ok ok, well i am a bit too so nevermind me i had too much coffee this morning, either way, lets all just END the ERO vs HENTAI ECCHI. I will replace my word of HENTAI to ERO in a way to discribe an action/thing. But will use Ecchi still ^_^ love that word!
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Old 2004-01-19, 17:44   Link #43
cf18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
So does the term "anime."

Please enlighten me (seriously, since I have a hard time understanding English preference of Japanized English terms from a Japanese-person's standpoint) on how one way:

A. "Anime" (shortened Japanized-English for the word "animation")

is different from preference of:

B. "Ero" (shortened Japanized-English for the word "erotic")

Well it is not really an preference, more like established dialect. "Anime" is old and commonly used, and since it came first it was cool. "Ero" is kind of new, and the established words were more cool since they sounds foreign.

When you to other part of Japan, do you tell people to correct their dialect to match yours? It's fine to tell people about the current trend in Japan but you don't need to repeat it all the time.

Also you should consider the usage of those words. Anime fans in the English world are more comfortable saying "hentai" or "h-game" in public than saying "ero" or "sex-game", since it is far less likely to make other people to give you funny looks.
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Old 2004-01-19, 18:35   Link #44
darkwave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cf18
Also you should consider the usage of those words. Anime fans in the English world are more comfortable saying "hentai" or "h-game" in public than saying "ero" or "sex-game", since it is far less likely to make other people to give you funny looks.
I actually prefered the use of the term *ERO* instead. It just sound a lot better IMO.

I for one dont want to be look upon as *weird otaku pervert* by the Japanese society for using the term *HENTAI*. Since, I take things seriously when it comes to things like this. I could imagine their horrified faces right now. LOL!

Well everybody has their own opinions, and they should do what they like. Dont mind my other post, rambling about ERO vs. HENTAI.

Nonetheless, I will continue using *ECCHI* for anime such as Futari Ecchi and others like it, unless another updated sexy word is used.
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Old 2004-01-19, 19:13   Link #45
ZaZu
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Kanos where are you downloading it from ?
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Old 2004-01-19, 19:57   Link #46
durrem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Please enlighten me (seriously, since I have a hard time understanding English preference of Japanized English terms from a Japanese-person's standpoint) on how one way:

A. "Anime" (shortened Japanized-English for the word "animation")

is different from preference of:

B. "Ero" (shortened Japanized-English for the word "erotic")
Some people have made the point about word usage, although not in the most polite manner. Those two terms are actually a very good example. This has to do with when a foreign word is integrated from another language (Sorry, I'm not a linguist. I don't know the technical terms for this).

For example, the word anime is a Japanese word for animation. When it migrated over to Japanese it, for the most part, kept its original meaning. However, the word managed to migrate back into English as a different word, specifically meaning "Japanese Animation." This may not be the actual definition of anime, but by usage, that is what the word means in English. If you go into a video store and ask for the anime section, 99 times out of 100 they will point out the Japanese animation section, not the other animated section filled with Disney, etc., and the other 1 time out of 100 the person is new and just doesn't know where the right section is. Thus, by the actual usage of the word, anime means Japanese animation, at least in English. I believe I read somewhere that this is how they decide how to put new words in the dictionary.

If you apply the same reasoning, while most English speakers might not know what hentai means, a vast majority of *edit* English speaking */edit* people who watch anime will associate it with what you refer to as ero. This has no reflection on whether they are using the Japanese word hentai correctly or incorrectly, or whether the word hentai was picked up as a mistaken reference to h-anime or h-games. It just means that, by word usage, the word hentai refers to (in English) the same things that ero refers to (in Japanese).

With that being said, I have no problem with the term ero. It kind of sounds cool, heh. Something to set one apart from the other uneducated anime fans. ;)

As an aside, I love the insight that kj1980 brings to this board, with respect to his cultural knowledge, and his well thought out posts. I hope he won't be put off from posting here due to the hostility I've seen in response to some of his posts, in this thread and others.

Last edited by durrem; 2004-01-19 at 21:14.
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Old 2004-01-19, 21:54   Link #47
hunterx
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words of wisdom. I think many people might get irritated by someone continually pointing to them what is wrong or right in japanese when they are communicating in english. I live in Canada and there are a lot of people from all over the world who don't speak english very well. You don't correct them unless they ask you to.

I don't mind kj1980 (although one time he got pissed off and said something in kanji which made me chuckle), he/she always has some interesting inside scoop on something most people don't know about. The hostility comes from the back and forth on what's right and wrong, when stating it and leaving it like that will do just fine.
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Old 2004-01-20, 02:31   Link #48
Loki_Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterx
words of wisdom. I think many people might get irritated by someone continually pointing to them what is wrong or right in japanese when they are communicating in english. I live in Canada and there are a lot of people from all over the world who don't speak english very well. You don't correct them unless they ask you to.

I don't mind kj1980 (although one time he got pissed off and said something in kanji which made me chuckle), he/she always has some interesting inside scoop on something most people don't know about. The hostility comes from the back and forth on what's right and wrong, when stating it and leaving it like that will do just fine.
I also remember preatty well that post made by him. Didnt really like it.
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Old 2004-01-20, 11:35   Link #49
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The problem here stems from the fact that most people think H (pronounced Ecchi) is short for hentai, where as this isn't true. H, or Ecchi, is a soft term for sex or sexual. Very different from Hentai, which means sick owr wierd. So the term H-Anime *does* work, because it more or less means sexual anime, or adult anime, where as Hentai Anime means sick or deranged anime. You can't get your terms mixed up...

Because the web page "H does not mean hentai" is down, I will quote the article for people here. Basically, use H or Ero instead of Hentai... Hentai is a very derogatory term.

'hentai' is a negative word in Japanese, meaning sick, weird, abnormal, deviant, and is not used as a genre label, and has nothing to do with cartoons. It sounds silly at best, and disturbing at worst, to Japanese speakers. It is equivalent to an English speaker saying "sicko animation" over and over again. Like, "I watched some sicko this weekend." "I love sicko!" "Where can I get some sicko pictures?" It sounds weird to use it as genre label, even if you do think animation with sex scenes is sick, but it sounds even worse to people that are fans of whatever it is you are calling sick, so if you don't mean to be intentionally insulting, it is best avoided.

'H', pronounced 'etchi,' is a separate word from 'hentai.' While it is believed to have originated from the first letter of 'hentai' some fifty years ago (it is worth noting that there are also multiple other theories for the origin of the word 'etchi') if it ever meant 'sick/weird/abnormal,' it no longer does. In modern Japanese, it is merely a soft word for 'sex' or 'sexual' and does not specifically carry any negative connotation, although depending on context and tone of voice it can be used to mean 'naughty' or 'lewd.' 'H anime' isn't really the standard way to refer to adult animation in Japan (it's usually called just 'adult(adaruto) anime' or 'ero anime' or sometimes 'bishoujo anime') but it is OK as a generic description of what it is: 'sex animation.'
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Old 2004-01-20, 13:09   Link #50
Diedrupo
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I agree with everything kj has said in this thread, and i'm not even Japanese. I think the misuse of the japanese language over here in the form of using words like hentai and baka, is pretty damn silly and will hopefully be fazed out in the next decade or so.
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Old 2004-01-20, 13:13   Link #51
Sailordareone2300
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Baka Hehehe

It will never go out long live Baka's
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Old 2004-01-20, 13:38   Link #52
kj1980
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Old 2004-01-20, 15:47   Link #53
Loki_Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailordareone2300
Baka Hehehe

It will never go out long live Baka's

i think im over baka, since its like COW in spanish so doesnt really mean much and AHO = garlic in spanish......damm why all the good words mean something else in spanish? i would sound stupid and wierd calling a mexican dude.......YOU BAKA AHO!!!
They would be like? WTF ? and walk away ignoring me LOL
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Old 2004-01-21, 10:16   Link #54
P1RO N1NJ4
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I'm just waiting for the last one (episode 4) to come out... Is it going to be the last one?
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Old 2004-01-21, 11:32   Link #55
u&t
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I don't think people should be actively discouraged from using the word "hentai". The word is quite commonly used in western languages and I'd say it has aquired a meaning of it's own.

That "hentai" means different things in japanese and in english might be annoying for speakers of both languages but the majority of ppl simply do not care.

There has been some references to spanish in this thread so I'll use the word "gringo" as an example. I guess most non-hispanics would translate it into "white american" and read alot of racial slur into it. The real meaning of the word seems to be like "generally foreign".

My point is words changinng meaning is totally normal and nothing to get upset over.
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Old 2004-01-21, 14:03   Link #56
Loki_Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u&t
I don't think people should be actively discouraged from using the word "hentai". The word is quite commonly used in western languages and I'd say it has aquired a meaning of it's own.

That "hentai" means different things in japanese and in english might be annoying for speakers of both languages but the majority of ppl simply do not care.

There has been some references to spanish in this thread so I'll use the word "gringo" as an example. I guess most non-hispanics would translate it into "white american" and read alot of racial slur into it. The real meaning of the word seems to be like "generally foreign".

My point is words changinng meaning is totally normal and nothing to get upset over.

AHH, your wrong in GRINGO my friend, wanna get into some history?
well we call GRINGO only to the AMERCIAN, no one else, not cadinians(well sometimes and even the british) that word is translated as WHITE MAN for us.
Back in the times when the war between US and Mexico, well the mexican soldiers didnt know SHIT about english, Americans had GREEN unifors, so the mexicans would say.... " GREEN GO" as of.......GET OUT OF HERE. that is why that word exist, so now in days we adapted it in a non offensive way wich just means, WHITE MAN or simply AMERICAN.
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Old 2004-01-21, 15:54   Link #57
LordBrian
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And now to off-handedly counter my previous position: so you're saying that only Americans are white? Or are you saying that all Americans are white?
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Old 2004-01-21, 16:16   Link #58
Loki_Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBrian
And now to off-handedly counter my previous position: so you're saying that only Americans are white? Or are you saying that all Americans are white?

We mostly only call Gringo to white ppl, but if we know there from USA, even if there white/black we call them gringo, nos asians though, even if there from USA
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Old 2004-01-21, 17:13   Link #59
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OMG!!!!!

back to Futari Ecchi!!!!!!


Have you guys seen ep 2? its hella funny!!!!!!!! i love the whole show!
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Old 2004-01-21, 20:34   Link #60
u&t
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Sorry to everyone reading this. Straying off quite badly here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki_Sama
AHH, your wrong in GRINGO my friend, wanna get into some history?
well we call GRINGO only to the AMERCIAN, no one else, not cadinians(well sometimes and even the british) that word is translated as WHITE MAN for us.
Back in the times when the war between US and Mexico, well the mexican soldiers didnt know SHIT about english, Americans had GREEN unifors, so the mexicans would say.... " GREEN GO" as of.......GET OUT OF HERE. that is why that word exist, so now in days we adapted it in a non offensive way wich just means, WHITE MAN or simply AMERICAN.
"GREEN GO" is just a big myth. There are records of the word "gringo" being used before the US-Mexican war and the US didn't even have green uniforms back then. Do a google search for "gringo etymology" and you'll find more information.

And trust me, when you use the word "gringo" you're using the english version. Go to parts of the carribean or south/central america where you can't get around without knowing at least some spanish (so much of mexico wont count) and you'll hear people calling you gringo simply for being foreign.

Which brings me back to my original point. Even if two words are the same in two languages they might have different meanings. I'll continue to use the word "hentai" for what it means in english. "Ero" just sounds totally lame in english so as long as we use english on this forum I'll stay away from it.
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