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Old 2009-08-20, 10:10   Link #321
Akka
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I have an inner and intense disgust of cheaters and cowards, so this asshole was particularly repellent to me.
Breaking the heart of people and abusing their trust just because you can't be arsed to take five seconds to tell them it's over... yeah, I was definitely happy to see him die

And in the anime, it definitely destroyed two lives. Seikai is deader than dead, and Katsura will probably follow quickly. Even if she's, by some miracle, rescued and still alive, I hardly see her ever healing completely (and she's going to spend quite a bit of time in prison anyway). They are not blameless, of coure, especially Sekai (Katsura has taken so much abuse from everyone that she's rather more of a victim than anything else), but it all stems from Makoto being the worst of the scum of Earth.
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Old 2009-08-20, 10:21   Link #322
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And it was Makoto's fault that Sekai ended up dead? Didn't Kotonoha have a little something to do with it?
Also, he's the sole reason Kotonoha was so unhinged as she was? I remember her showing, very early on in the series, signs of a trauma that weighed pretty heavily on her personal relationships... she wasn't all there, even then.

I find that answering those questions is way more important than simply assigning blame to the guy - who, admittedly, did do some pretty shitty things. But, then again, who is completely blameless these days?

Finally, Kotonoha was simply a poor victim, eh? Sucks to be Sekai, then...
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Old 2009-08-20, 10:45   Link #323
Akka
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
And it was Makoto's fault that Sekai ended up dead? Didn't Kotonoha have a little something to do with it?
Also, he's the sole reason Kotonoha was so unhinged as she was? I remember her showing, very early on in the series, signs of a trauma that weighed pretty heavily on her personal relationships... she wasn't all there, even then.
That's precisely what I said : she's more a victim than anything else.
Sure she's physically the one who actually kills Sekai, but let's be honest, by this time she's snapped and is utterly broken, I don't think we can consider she's in control anymore.

She can be blamed for being a blind fool refusing to see she's not desired anymore, but for the rest, the responsibility hang more into her family for being just as blind (I mean, she's just pretty OBVIOUSLY having serious mental issue at some time, how can they possibily not see it and bring her to medical attention ?) and Makoto + Sekai for destroying her (Sekai at least had remorses and weakly tried to have Makoto break up with her, but he was just a total jerkass who didn't care and didn't bother).
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I find that answering those questions is way more important than simply assigning blame to the guy - who, admittedly, did do some pretty shitty things. But, then again, who is completely blameless these days?
I think there is a pretty large gap between being "not totally blameless" and "a total pile of shit".
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Finally, Kotonoha was simply a poor victim, eh? Sucks to be Sekai, then...
Sekai is much less of a victim. First, she's clearly not as fragile as Katsura, she's not constantly picked on and vulnerable, and she's the one who manipulated others - though, I'll give you that, I'm pretty sure it wasn't conscious.

She perfectly knew what kind of jerk Makoto was, that he cheated without second thoughts and was disrespectful of others - she WAS the one he cheated Katsura with, wasn't she ?
As such, I've no sympathy with her "OMG HE CHEATED ON ME ?". Yeah, he cheated on you. What did you expect, bitch ? Weren't you on the first line to see how he didn't gave a f... about what could hurt other ?

I will give her, though, she, at least, had the decency to feel bad about it and to try to make Makoto break up with Katsura. She's some redeeming human qualities.
But she can't really compare to the "victimness" of Katsura, who simply got kicked in the face for the whole serie long, was probably for a long time before, and ended broken and probably dead.
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Old 2009-08-20, 12:17   Link #324
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Sekai is much less of a victim. First, she's clearly not as fragile as Katsura, she's not constantly picked on and vulnerable, and she's the one who manipulated others - though, I'll give you that, I'm pretty sure it wasn't conscious.

She perfectly knew what kind of jerk Makoto was, that he cheated without second thoughts and was disrespectful of others - she WAS the one he cheated Katsura with, wasn't she ?
As such, I've no sympathy with her "OMG HE CHEATED ON ME ?". Yeah, he cheated on you. What did you expect, bitch ? Weren't you on the first line to see how he didn't gave a f... about what could hurt other ?

I will give her, though, she, at least, had the decency to feel bad about it and to try to make Makoto break up with Katsura. She's some redeeming human qualities.
But she can't really compare to the "victimness" of Katsura, who simply got kicked in the face for the whole serie long, was probably for a long time before, and ended broken and probably dead.
Hold up, let's back this up a little. I'm pretty sure that Sekai is not as conniving as you're making her out to be. I disagree, Sekai did not know that Makoto would turn out to be as bad as he was because the viewers were the only ones getting hints of how easily tempted he can be. Sekai loved the guy, just like Kotonoha (although not as obsessive,) but I don't see how Sekai knew exactly that Makoto would turn out to be a person that sleeps with anything that moves, that was beyond her control. Sekai did try to bring Makoto and Kotonoha together in the beginning but in the end, her feelings got the better of her and when Makoto confesses that he loves her, what do you want her to do? Sekai tried to make the best out of the situation but Makoto only made it worse.
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Old 2009-08-20, 13:10   Link #325
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Well, I wasn't trying to paint Sekai as a victim, she clearly wasn't one (only of premeditated murder, but she was guilty of that, as well) - that was merely a joke, meant to imply I don't feel Kotonoha was a victim of much anything, either; she clearly had problems long before her association with Makoto and Sekai.
Also, I agree with Dex-kun, in that Sekai couldn't really have foreseen everything that happened - maybe she could have guessed, after Makoto's spineless reluctance to break up with Kotonoha, but... that was too late, already.

Finally, well, I cannot agree with the "total pile of shit" moniker. Yes, people do seriously bad things, specially when the hormones start flying. But that's not the end all of things. Makoto could have improved himself - alas, now, we'll never know.
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Old 2009-08-20, 13:54   Link #326
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Hold up, let's back this up a little. I'm pretty sure that Sekai is not as conniving as you're making her out to be. I disagree, Sekai did not know that Makoto would turn out to be as bad as he was because the viewers were the only ones getting hints of how easily tempted he can be. Sekai loved the guy, just like Kotonoha (although not as obsessive,) but I don't see how Sekai knew exactly that Makoto would turn out to be a person that sleeps with anything that moves, that was beyond her control. Sekai did try to bring Makoto and Kotonoha together in the beginning but in the end, her feelings got the better of her and when Makoto confesses that he loves her, what do you want her to do? Sekai tried to make the best out of the situation but Makoto only made it worse.
Seems there was a slight misunderstanding ^^
I didn't say that Sekai was THAT conniving, I even said that she was not consciously manipulating people (she realize only at the very end that she was manipulating them, in fact).

She was, a bit like Katsura, guilty of selective blindness - but she's much less excusable about this than Katsura, because she was much more active in this, and doesn't have all the problems the latter had.
Of course she didn't plan how Makoto would turn out. But she was first in line to see he was on the way to - how can you expect someone to NOT cheat on you and to respect you, when he cheat and disrespect his former lover RIGHT IN FRONT ON YOUR EYES ? She IS with him when he spinelessly avoids Katsura, refuses to clear things with her and the like. For days. WEEKS. So sorry, but I don't buy the "she couldn't have guessed". Yes, she could. She also could grow a pair (as her guy is clearly not the one who has them) and clears things with Katsura herself ; or refuses to go any further with Makoto until he has made up his mind and acted. The kind of things decent people do. She was supposed to be Katsura's friend and to help her with Makoto, remember...

So I admit she had some cares, she was not consciously manipulative, and was also somehow victim of Makoto abusive pushiness, but she caved in without much a fight and betrayed a friend's trust. It makes her much less forgiveable than Katsura, who was an in and out victim from start to finish.

Though one point is worthy of notice : if she really wasN'T pregnant in the end (hard to tell, considering the only witness isn't most reliable), she also lied and was, this time, consciously manipulative. Sure, it's not like she lied to a saint (understatement of the year), but that isn't a good method in any cases.
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Well, I wasn't trying to paint Sekai as a victim, she clearly wasn't one (only of premeditated murder, but she was guilty of that, as well) - that was merely a joke, meant to imply I don't feel Kotonoha was a victim of much anything, either; she clearly had problems long before her association with Makoto and Sekai.
Hu, are you joking ?

She's a shy a trusting person. Her shyness and trust are abused by her boyfriend and her (only) friend. She's cheated on. She's mocked behind her back. She's bullied and abused at school. She's alone and nobody stand for her nor comfort her. She's yelled at and accused being a whore due to her boyfriend. She breaks down and NOBODY gives a shit. She may have had previous psychological problems. She sees her loved one killed on the floor. She ends up insane and probably dead.

But she's not a victim ? 0_o

I agree that her (former) supposed mental issues aren't Makoto/Sekai's fault, but even a perfectly sane individual would have had a hell of a time in such a situation. Saying she's not a victim of anything is quite incredible. She's probably the ONLY real victim in the whole show.
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Also, I agree with Dex-kun, in that Sekai couldn't really have foreseen everything that happened - maybe she could have guessed, after Makoto's spineless reluctance to break up with Kotonoha, but... that was too late, already.
How so, too late ?
She couldn't get a spine herself and put limits ? She couldn't realize her lover was a repulsive asshole, get some taste and dump him ? She couldn't have taken the matters into her own hands and clear things with Makoto ?

Because she dates Makoto, she suddendly have any grey matter and free will removed and is not a person anymore ?
Weird reasoning.
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Finally, well, I cannot agree with the "total pile of shit" moniker. Yes, people do seriously bad things, specially when the hormones start flying. But that's not the end all of things. Makoto could have improved himself - alas, now, we'll never know.
This is a guy who doesn't care how much he hurts people (and love HURTS, it's not like he stole candies to a classmate), who prefers to let people in pain for weeks rather than take five minutes of his time to set things straight, who cheats and lies without a remorse, who rejects all faults on others and refuses to be responsible of anything (he yells at Sekai because "she" got pregnant, whines "it's not my fault" to Katsura about it, I mean, it's conception immaculate ?), who thinks himself the victim because he just can't fuck whatever move anymore - but doesn't consider others being victims all the while he cheats and lies to them.

That's quite a benchmark of human garbage.
Sure, he could have improved. But at the time of his death, he was worth nothing as a human being. The "hormone" excuse doesn't hold water. You can accept it for some youngster who give in the urge once, not someone who let his supposed girlfriend in nervous breakdown at her home, doesn't even call her and purposedly nail everything that move in the meantime. That's not "hormones", that's "being a damn asshole".

Last edited by Akka; 2009-08-20 at 14:15.
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Old 2009-08-20, 15:35   Link #327
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Well, just to clear things. Kotonoha has problems long before her meeting with makoto. She secluded herself in her own dream world and isolated everyone from her. That's why she didn't have any friends and later her classmates bullied her.Not to mention she provoked them. And about her "only firend",. Right, but even then she really don't cared about her either. Has Kotonoha ever done for Sekai? No. The one kept up their relationship was sekai and she kept it up even after she betrayed her. Out of goodwill. She even planned to release makoto. But he constatly convinced her to not do it.
IF Kotonoha is a victim then Sekai's an even greater one. Kotonoha was a victim of betrayal from both Makoto and Sekai. But even if they were her only friends it shouldn't made her that way. If she would've accepted the fact and didn't deny it her family could've helped her.
Funny but that's what happened mainly with Sekai too, but to a greater degree.
She was betrayed by her long-time friends and even her best friend, Makoto's cheated on her many times and even at the start he kept her in constant doubt and distress.
But she has more justification to cling into him though. Being in love with him for about a year, they had sex many times, Makoto's constant swearing about loving her and then perhaps the pregnancy. It wasn't a single relationship like Kotonoha's. Surprisingly, for Sekai her wrong decisions were the ones being selfless, like helping Kotona and makoto's disfunctional relationship or not ignoring Kotonoha after she betrayed her. Well her other mistake was not ignoring Makoto after him and Kotonoha has gotten together, but cause of the situation and perhaps because of Sekai's personallity and love for makoto it was even more impossible.
She overestimated her own self-control and her feelings for makot had flown out, making those situations.

So I question it in the end. If she did something bad she must be condemmed and she couldn't be a victim no matter how much she minds her own actions and how much she suffers?
Ridiculous.

P.S.: Sorry. This post is really off-topic, but I just have to say it.
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Old 2009-08-20, 16:00   Link #328
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You obviously bring elements from the game, because nowhere at any point in the anime did Kotonoha provoke the others nor it is stated that she secluded herself from others. So you're probably mixing some events here.
I'm strictly speaking about the anime.

Saying that Sekai was more of a victim because she betrayed Kotonoha and kept the relationship from then on... Hu ? That's being an hypocrite, not being a victim... "hey I'm your friend, I screw your boyfriend in your back, and I won't tell you anything, and I'm the victim".
Hu, yeah, right.

Both were victim of Makoto and of their own selective obliviousness, but Sekai has much less excuses, seing much more of Makoto's real side, being less vulnerable, and bringing most of the drama actively upon herself.

Honestly, what Katsura ever DID to anyone until she snapped ?
The worst she can be accused of was to cling desperately to Makoto. She certainly deserves a hard slap to wake her up, but it's not like she cheated/betrayed/used/whatever anyone, unlike 90 % of the whole rest of the cast - on the contrary, she was at the receiving end of all that.
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Old 2009-08-20, 16:28   Link #329
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That's the point. Kotonoha hardly did anything for anyone. Being good or bad. That's her wrong "action". And perhaps her wrong decision. She brought her insanity soletly on herself. She constantly denied it and clinged to the fact she's Makoto's boyfriend and pissed off the girls around her. And when she saw they're pissed about it she acted arrogantly and provoked them. Perhaps they acted mean with her even before, but it was because she isolated herself from the crowd. One thing her looks and hihg class, but not interacting with anyone is seriously problematic. I know, because I'm somehow the "scientist-type" who tends to enjoy his own world.
And about Sekai you seriously misunderstood something in my post. She wasn't a victim because she betrayed Kotonoha. She was a victim because she suffered the same and even greater amount the things Kotonoha did(and she kept her sanity! Being insane certainly lessens the pain...it's a method of running away. A really sad method, but still running away). She really minded her own actions, like betraying Kotonoha and later she notices she even betrayed unwantedly and unconciously much more people.
Not to mention she experiences the pain even before her betrayal. The one she loves likes someone other and she must watch the two of them together every time. Yeah, she pretty much brought it on herself by being a coward to confess really early and by being helpfull instead of trying to steal makoto as soon as possible thus lessening Kotonoha's pain.(and naturally her pain even more). She's a really nice and helpful girl, but in an extremely unfortunate situation.
Now back to your question two posts before:
Him switching girlfriends not even nearly means he's a mage-pimp and he cheats with everyone he sees. After a mostly disfuncional relationship(well, thanks to Sekai it wasn't that bad, but...) finding a new girlfriend is natural. Sekai isn't a mind reader to properly know what kind of person makoto is. At Makoto's later behavior even otome his childhood friend was utterly shocked. Sekai may properly researched on him, but Makoto has "qualities" even he wasn't aware of.


P.S: if we really bring up the VN then Kotonoha SERIOUSLY does much more evil and bad things than Sekai, but it wasn't ever my intention to talk about the VN...it's mainly the anime's thread.
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:06   Link #330
Akka
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
That's the point. Kotonoha hardly did anything for anyone. Being good or bad. That's her wrong "action". And perhaps her wrong decision. She brought her insanity soletly on herself. She constantly denied it and clinged to the fact she's Makoto's boyfriend
On this, we do agree. And that's why I see her as a victim. She had some very mild blame on her, but on the whole she's more enduring what others do to her than doing anything to other.
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and pissed off the girls around her. And when she saw they're pissed about it she acted arrogantly and provoked them. Perhaps they acted mean with her even before, but it was because she isolated herself from the crowd. One thing her looks and hihg class, but not interacting with anyone is seriously problematic. I know, because I'm somehow the "scientist-type" who tends to enjoy his own world.
On this one, I'm afraid you're remembering incorrectly.
Right from the start she's bullied by others, and she doesn't even mention she has a boyfriend until she's cornered into saying it by the said bullies.
It's not said anywhere she isolated herself from the crowd. It's hinted that she's been isolated due to jealousy (being beautiful and rich).
On this point, she's a completely blameless victim.
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And about Sekai you seriously misunderstood something in my post. She wasn't a victim because she betrayed Kotonoha. She was a victim because she suffered the same and even greater amount the things Kotonoha did(and she kept her sanity! Being insane certainly lessens the pain...it's a method of running away. A really sad method, but still running away). She really minded her own actions, like betraying Kotonoha and later she notices she even betrayed unwantedly and unconciously much more people.
Not to mention she experiences the pain even before her betrayal. The one she loves likes someone other and she must watch the two of them together every time. Yeah, she pretty much brought it on herself by being a coward to confess really early and by being helpfull instead of trying to steal makoto as soon as possible thus lessening Kotonoha's pain.(and naturally her pain even more). She's a really nice and helpful girl, but in an extremely unfortunate situation.
While I do agree on most point, I disagree on the conclusion. If you bring something upon yourself, you're not the victim. You just reap what you sow. Which is why I have much less sympathy for Sekai (whose most of the trials she endured were because of her own idiocy, and who hurt others in the meantime) than Katsura.
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Now back to your question two posts before:
Him switching girlfriends not even nearly means he's a mage-pimp and he cheats with everyone he sees.
Yes, but not warning your supposed-to-be girlfriend that you do not love her anymore and are banging her friend in her back certainly does make you an asshole.
Then banging all the girls you can put your hands on while the ex-girlfriend is in a blue screen of death and your actual supposed-to-be-girlfriend is crying alone in her rooms for week, definitely make you human garbage, and yes it means you're cheating with everyone you see.
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After a mostly disfuncional relationship(well, thanks to Sekai it wasn't that bad, but...) finding a new girlfriend is natural. Sekai isn't a mind reader to properly know what kind of person makoto is.
Why do you talk about "mind reading". He IS cheating his supposed girlfriend with her. She IS bothered by how he is spineless. She SEES him avoiding Katsura so he can pet and fuck her without caring of what both of them feel.
She sees all that. Hence she KNOWS what kind of person he is. She just choose to pretend to not know.
Quote:
At Makoto's later behavior even otome his childhood friend was utterly shocked. Sekai may properly researched on him, but Makoto has "qualities" even he wasn't aware of.
Otome is quite the dumb hypocrite here, though. She cheated the supposed-to-be-girlfriend AND the actual-girlfriend both with him. For weeks, perhaps monthes.
She saw how he didn't care about straightening things.

And she acts surprised "you are not anymore a caring person ?!".
(all the while mercilessly abusing and bullying the rejected and cheated girl)

To be true, I would have liked her to get quite a bit of karmic backlash too. She's a big bitch and pretend to hold the high moral ground (okay, compared to Makoto, about everyone DOES hold the high ground, but still...).
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:35   Link #331
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That's why discussing preferences with obvious fans is a bad idea.

You clearly outline your preferences, by labeling Kotonoha as "pure" and "shy" and whatever moe qualities you see fit. Honestly, you sound way too judgmental and I don't think there's much room to discuss things - I sure as hell do not want another flame war. So, ta-da and see ya...
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:09   Link #332
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Mmh, no, I specifically said she has her own faults (by being too passive, by not accepting the obvious). Her faults are not actively hurting others, though, which is why I found her more sympathetic. Is it so hard to understand ?

As for my preferences, I never used the word "pure", and her being shy and beautiful are more or less plot points, so I fail to see where my preferences enter in the equation. Same as her being bullied and not having any onscreen friend - that's facts in the show, I didn't imagine them to make Katsura more "moe".

If you read carefully, you can notice that my arguments are only based on the facts presented in the show - if I reasoned on something that was not actually onscreen, you're welcome to correct me, I promise I won't bite

Or is it simply the very strong distaste I have for betrayal/lies/cheating and the like that bothers you ? I totally recognize this one, cheating and being dishonest with someone who has feeling for you is definitely one of the WORST thing you can do to him/her (which is why I have such violent reactions about it, it's just something That Thou Shouldst Not Do).

Last edited by Akka; 2009-08-20 at 18:36.
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:41   Link #333
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Didn't Sekai twist Setsunas arm to get close Makoto despite knowing that Setsun liked Makoto first ?

Sekai only set Makoto up with Kotonoha as a means to get close to him and have him indebted to her... and that part worked... too well.

Sekai was a bad egg from day one with her initial scheming... which she convinced her self was doing Makoto a favour.
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Old 2009-08-21, 01:29   Link #334
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Now that's really warping things up. Everyone believes that Sekai's some kind of genius reading people or hardcure manipulator. She isn't, so she has no way to know everything about everyone. She only noticed her selfishness to Setsuna in ep 12. It means she probably didn't notice she still likes Makoto. Her only sheme was at the first episode, but it was an "innocent one".Making Makoto confess, being rejected then Sekai confesses to him. That was her plan and it failed.
And about her not noticing how heartless Makoto is? Right. But she's a girl in love. She finally have Makoto and the love blinds her to see those things. It's a mistake on her part, but a seriously understandable one.
About the victimity: Then let's see Kotonoha's "actions" which if she did otherwise she wouldn't have ended up like this.
-Her secludedness. She doesn't want to open up. It made her all more vulnerabable when she partially opened up to Seikai then Makoto.And perhaps her isolation caused dislike in others. Not to mention there must be always some victims in the class. The easiest one is the isolated loner like Kotonoha. But Kotonoha worsened the situation later by provoking them. I had a similar situation, but I made friends with them instead. Revenge is quite a foolish thing(well it was otherwise in the elementaly school, but there we made a counter band to solve this.)
-Being so self-centered and not trying to understand Makoto. Even with Sekai's help their relationship went quite roughly. To her excuse she was secluded and all the thing she knows about relationships originates from bright romantic stories and fairy tales.
-Being so obsessed with Makoto and not being able to release him. Not to mention her denial of things. It lead to her false hope and caused her to break. That's why I don't really feel sorry for her insanity. She 've brought it on herself and by herself alone.
-And lastly her harshness to Sekai. When she got together with Makoto again she openly showed her affection with makoto and bragged about their relationship every time. Not to mention in a quite mean tone. She totally provoked Sekai, not to mention she break Sekai's world(how funny using romanised japanese words in english text...As you know Sekai means world in japanese[as her explained early on]). And she got "what she wanted". sekai killed Makoto thus ruined her life(and her own too). She put oil no gasoline on the fire.

In the end no matter what happens with us, we're always partially responsible for it. There's always chances where we could've avoided the bad things happening with us.
But Kotonoha's mistakes originated from selfishness while Sekai's partially from selflessness too.(well, unintentionally charming Makoto, her overflowning emotions were mistakes, but then we can speak about the other part[Makoto's] mistakes too. It was kind of invenietable)

P.S:To BetoJR: you consider me as an obvious fan too?. Well I kind of enjoy discussiong or even arguing with someone with the opposite opinion. They always have something they see more clearly than I am. So I take his/her opposition too to provoke those answers. Maybe I am a subtle troll...or not.
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Old 2009-08-21, 12:16   Link #335
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Seems there was a slight misunderstanding ^^
I didn't say that Sekai was THAT conniving, I even said that she was not consciously manipulating people (she realize only at the very end that she was manipulating them, in fact).

She was, a bit like Katsura, guilty of selective blindness - but she's much less excusable about this than Katsura, because she was much more active in this, and doesn't have all the problems the latter had.
Of course she didn't plan how Makoto would turn out. But she was first in line to see he was on the way to - how can you expect someone to NOT cheat on you and to respect you, when he cheat and disrespect his former lover RIGHT IN FRONT ON YOUR EYES ? She IS with him when he spinelessly avoids Katsura, refuses to clear things with her and the like. For days. WEEKS. So sorry, but I don't buy the "she couldn't have guessed". Yes, she could. She also could grow a pair (as her guy is clearly not the one who has them) and clears things with Katsura herself ; or refuses to go any further with Makoto until he has made up his mind and acted. The kind of things decent people do. She was supposed to be Katsura's friend and to help her with Makoto, remember...

So I admit she had some cares, she was not consciously manipulative, and was also somehow victim of Makoto abusive pushiness, but she caved in without much a fight and betrayed a friend's trust. It makes her much less forgiveable than Katsura, who was an in and out victim from start to finish.
First and foremost, could you give me some examples of when she "subconsciously" manipulated others? Just to see if we agree or not whether it is manipulation.

One thing about Sekai is that although Makoto was cheating on Kotonoha, he was spending most of his time with Sekai and one could say that he fell in love with her. Makoto even said that he didn't have any fun with Kotonoha which is why I believe that Sekai could not have seen that coming. You know, there are people that fall in love with another while going out with someone, it happens all the time. But like I said before, the hints of how easily tempted Makoto is were only shown to us (the viewers,) and as far as Sekai knew, Makoto was in love with her.

Yes, Sekai could have tried to clear things up herself but you know what? Easier said than done. There are a number of decisions one could make in certain situations, but we won't always make the right one, we're only human. Sekai was in love with the guy, most people would "cave in" in her place, it's basic human nature (remember that love is also the reason why Kotonoha was mentally unstable.)
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Old 2009-08-21, 12:59   Link #336
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
First and foremost, could you give me some examples of when she "subconsciously" manipulated others? Just to see if we agree or not whether it is manipulation.
Well, at the end of the serie, she's an inner monologue which explains it pretty well : she acted like the Cyrano only to show "look what a good girl I am". She (subconsciously) used Kotonoha as a tool to make herself look better.
Quote:
One thing about Sekai is that although Makoto was cheating on Kotonoha, he was spending most of his time with Sekai and one could say that he fell in love with her. Makoto even said that he didn't have any fun with Kotonoha which is why I believe that Sekai could not have seen that coming.
You know, there are people that fall in love with another while going out with someone, it happens all the time. But like I said before, the hints of how easily tempted Makoto is were only shown to us (the viewers,) and as far as Sekai knew, Makoto was in love with her.
You seem to miss the point. What makes Sekai dumb is not that she believed that Makoto fell in love with her (it was probably somehow true at the time, and it was anyway totally believable).
What make her dumb is that she believed that he could not do her the same.

If a person has no problem cheating and lieing with someone, why would he will have any qualm to do it to you later, if his feelings toward you ever change ?
Someone who date a person can fall in love with someone else, that's a given, but here it's a question of character (good persons, when the case arise, have the decency of doing it cleanly, i.e. breaking up with the person they don't love anymore before banging someone else).

How can Sekai be surprised that Makoto cheats on her, while she saw him cheats on his previous girlfriend ? Like Willyvereb said, she just was blind because of love (and a good amount of stupidity). She believed what she wanted to believe, not what was obvious (same from Kotonoha who refused to see that Makoto didn't love her anymore either).
Quote:
Yes, Sekai could have tried to clear things up herself but you know what? Easier said than done. There are a number of decisions one could make in certain situations, but we won't always make the right one, we're only human. Sekai was in love with the guy, most people would "cave in" in her place, it's basic human nature (remember that love is also the reason why Kotonoha was mentally unstable.)
That's awfully forgivable toward Sekai. I'm afraid I'm totally not agreeing with what you consider "normal" behaviour. What you describe is cowardice and convenience.
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Old 2009-08-21, 13:34   Link #337
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Well, at the end of the serie, she's an inner monologue which explains it pretty well : she acted like the Cyrano only to show "look what a good girl I am". She (subconsciously) used Kotonoha as a tool to make herself look better.
What I'm asking is, what do you see as manipulation? My memory is kind of fuzzy as to the moments when Sekai used Kotonoha as a "tool" to make herself feel better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
You seem to miss the point. What makes Sekai dumb is not that she believed that Makoto fell in love with her (it was probably somehow true at the time, and it was anyway totally believable).
What make her dumb is that she believed that he could not do her the same.

If a person has no problem cheating and lieing with someone, why would he will have any qualm to do it to you later, if his feelings toward you ever change ?
Someone who date a person can fall in love with someone else, that's a given, but here it's a question of character (good persons, when the case arise, have the decency of doing it cleanly, i.e. breaking up with the person they don't love anymore before banging someone else).

How can Sekai be surprised that Makoto cheats on her, while she saw him cheats on his previous girlfriend ? Like Willyvereb said, she just was blind because of love (and a good amount of stupidity). She believed what she wanted to believe, not what was obvious (same from Kotonoha who refused to see that Makoto didn't love her anymore either).

That's awfully forgivable toward Sekai. I'm afraid I'm totally not agreeing with what you consider "normal" behaviour. What you describe is cowardice and convenience.
Why wouldn't you believe in the person you love? Before Makoto began to sleep with all of his classmates, he had only slept with Sekai. Makoto cheated on Kotonoha with Sekai and it seemed like he really was in love with her considering everything he said. He seemed sincere about his words, that is until he began sleeping around. I would agree with you only if Makoto had a history of cheating on all of his girlfriends but at the beginning of the series, he was just an inexperienced boy.

Makoto was reluctant, he didn't clear things up with Kotonoha because he was a coward. It's not like he slept with Kotonoha at the time he was cheating on her, he was avoiding her because he wasn't having fun and he just didn't love her. Again, I'm only talking about the moments before he began sleeping around.

What you're stating sounds inconsistent to your beliefs of Kotonoha's decision in murdering Sekai. You can understand Kotonoha's reasons for killing her yet, you can't understand why Sekai chose to believe in the person she loved. I got the impression that Makoto was a pretty nice guy in the beginning of the series and he sounded sincere when he said that he loved Sekai. It's only afterwards that we figure out what type of person he really is.
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Old 2009-08-21, 13:37   Link #338
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The thing is: LOTS of people behave exactly like that. I mean, I know personally dozens of women who were plenty happy about being "the other" for a married man, but when they became the official wives, they were unhappy because their husbands cheated on them. I mean, it was pretty obvious they might, wouldn't you say?

And, sure, Sekai was a big wimp and a coward... But that's not unrealistic and neither makes her devoid of pity. You pity Kotonoha, we do Sekai.
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Old 2009-08-21, 13:40   Link #339
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The thing is: LOTS of people behave exactly like that. I mean, I know personally dozens of women who were plenty happy about being "the other" for a married man, but when they became the official wives, they were unhappy because their husbands cheated on them. I mean, it was pretty obvious they might, wouldn't you say?

And, sure, Sekai was a big wimp and a coward... But that's not unrealistic and neither makes her devoid of pity. You pity Kotonoha, we do Sekai.
Sad but true. But in this case, Sekai was looking for the real thing and I don't see how it's "stupid" of her when she was ignorant to what type of person Makoto was underneath his "innocent" exterior.
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Old 2009-08-21, 13:44   Link #340
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Most girls who get together with married men are also looking for the real thing, mate. It's just more than likely to not be there... I'm not saying they're all stupid, but they have a... let's say, an "innocence" that I'm not sure is well-founded. Such was the case with Sekai, even if the situation was different and she had no reason to believe Makoto would turn out the way he did, but... he did cheat on his then-girlfriend with her. So, it comes to reason that he could very well do the same thing again.

However, that's neither here nor there. I don't think she was the sole responsible for the debacle, and neither was he. EVERYONE has a share of the blame.
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