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Old 2009-08-21, 13:56   Link #341
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Most girls who get together with married men are also looking for the real thing, mate. It's just more than likely to not be there... I'm not saying they're all stupid, but they have a... let's say, an "innocence" that I'm not sure is well-founded. Such was the case with Sekai, even if the situation was different and she had no reason to believe Makoto would turn out the way he did, but... he did cheat on his girlfriend with her. So, it comes to reason that he could very well do the same thing again.
Well my experiences are different from that One thing I do have to say though, although I do agree with what you say, I find it less likely when it's his first experience in relationships. Usually first loves are very clingy and obsessive depending on the people and after reading both Makoto's and Sekai's behaviors, I just got the feeling that Makoto had a high sexual drive (just like every other teenage boy,) and that he was in love with Sekai.

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However, that's neither here nor there. I don't think she was the sole responsible for the debacle, and neither was he. EVERYONE has a share of the blame.
This I whole-heartily agree with
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Old 2009-08-21, 13:57   Link #342
Akka
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
What I'm asking is, what do you see as manipulation? My memory is kind of fuzzy as to the moments when Sekai used Kotonoha as a "tool" to make herself feel better.
Hu... The answer is in the quote you answer to :

"she acted like the Cyrano only to show "look what a good girl I am". She (subconsciously) used Kotonoha as a tool to make herself look better."

I'm afraid I can't be clearer than this.
Quote:
Why wouldn't you believe in the person you love?
Because you see them lieing to a person they were supposed to love at first ?

Again, the answer is in what you quote : if Makoto can lies to and cheat Kotonoha once he's no more infatuated in her, why wouldn't he act the same toward Sekai once he's no more infatuated in her ?

Seems pretty obvious to me.
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What you're stating sounds inconsistent to your beliefs of Kotonoha's decision in murdering Sekai. You can understand Kotonoha's reasons for killing her yet, you can't understand why Sekai chose to believe in the person she loved.
How in the world being in pain because someone you loved is dead, is in any way related to believing someone to have a high moral character while he's proving you at the same time he doesn't give a damn about cheating and lieing ? 0_o

I really don't see how the two have the slightest thing in common.
Quote:
I got the impression that Makoto was a pretty nice guy in the beginning of the series and he sounded sincere when he said that he loved Sekai. It's only afterwards that we figure out what type of person he really is.
I also thought that Makoto was a nice guy at the start. He seemed more clumsy than anything and looked like he was really trying to be gentle with Katsura.
Then by the third ep he starts to only do what's beneficial for him, and from now on it only goes from bad to worse, as he abuse people more and more and cares less and less.
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
The thing is: LOTS of people behave exactly like that. I mean, I know personally dozens of women who were plenty happy about being "the other" for a married man, but when they became the official wives, they were unhappy because their husbands cheated on them. I mean, it was pretty obvious they might, wouldn't you say?

And, sure, Sekai was a big wimp and a coward... But that's not unrealistic and neither makes her devoid of pity. You pity Kotonoha, we do Sekai.
Well, it's true that losts of people behave like that. But then, lots of people are bastards

I'm not totally devoid of pity toward Sekai, but as I said, she was actively bringing her doom upon herself, without lots of real excuses, while Kotonoha was much more a victim of circumstances and had to endure much harder situations all the while being much more vulnerable, so I pity Kotonoha much more.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:01   Link #343
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Sad but true. But in this case, Sekai was looking for the real thing and I don't see how it's "stupid" of her when she was ignorant to what type of person Makoto was underneath his "innocent" exterior.
You just can't be ignorant about what kind of person is someone if they cheat their significant other with you... That's the whole point...
Quote:
However, that's neither here nor there. I don't think she was the sole responsible for the debacle, and neither was he. EVERYONE has a share of the blame.
Well, that's the point of the serie I think ^^
But it's not because everyone has a part in it, that it means everyone is equally responsible. Makoto get the biggest part of the blame, by far, and Katsura gets the smallest by far (though she HAS her share).
Beware of excessive relativism
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:21   Link #344
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Hu... The answer is in the quote you answer to :

"she acted like the Cyrano only to show "look what a good girl I am". She (subconsciously) used Kotonoha as a tool to make herself look better."

I'm afraid I can't be clearer than this.
That's not what I'm implying. I'm asking if you could give me examples from the anime, not compare it to something else.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Because you see them lieing to a person they were supposed to love at first ?

Again, the answer is in what you quote : if Makoto can lies to and cheat Kotonoha once he's no more infatuated in her, why wouldn't he act the same toward Sekai once he's no more infatuated in her ?

Seems pretty obvious to me.
Everyone lies and some are for good reasons and some are for bad. In this case, Makoto lied to Kotonoha because he didn't know how to tell her that he loved someone else. At this point I wouldn't blame Sekai for believing in him especially considering the fact that Kotonoha was the first person he had a relationship with.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
How in the world being in pain because someone you loved is dead, is in any way related to believing someone to have a high moral character while he's proving you at the same time he doesn't give a damn about cheating and lieing ? 0_o

I really don't see how the two have the slightest thing in common.
My mistake, I was thinking of Sekai's reasons for killing Makoto, not Kotonoha. You understand her for killing him but you can't understand her for believing in Makoto initially. (i.e - Before he sleeps around.)

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
You just can't be ignorant about what kind of person is someone if they cheat their significant other with you... That's the whole point...
My point is that Makoto puts on a facade, I can't blame Sekai for not being able to see past that.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:25   Link #345
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Well, let's agree to disagree, here. Kotonoha is actually a member of a certain archetype of character that I really have no feelings for (the rich, "perfect" moe girl, who really has no qualms having such hang-ups in the first place), so I'm much more likely to not really care much - on the other hand, Sekai and Makoto are much more relatable to me, because of personal preferences and past experience.

So, let's just have a difference of opinion, then.

I still find the series a very nice character study on what could go wrong in your run-of-the-mill romance animes, and I treasure the memories of it. Even the ending, which turns out to be of a very strong cautionary tale kind...
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:26   Link #346
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@Akka:Actually, you're a bit wrong. Cheating with somone not automatically means he's fairly disloyal in relationships. Especially if she was his first girlfriend. Perhaps it means he's not overly committed or loyal in relationships but those were clear to Sekai from the beginning. She overestimated Makoto's love for her and perhaps her own love blinded her to the truth.

And I don't think Sekai's innocent. LikeI don't think Kotonoha is either. Kotonoha's pretty much selfish even if she's nice. That's why their relationship was disfunctional with makoto because he's the same. Not to mention a real innocent girl wouldn't be so mean to Sekai at ep 12(and I still can't shake off her acts in the VN...sorry).
Sekai was a nice and caring girl, but the situations changed her too. I say she deserved someone much better than Makoto.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:30   Link #347
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
And I don't think Sekai's innocent. LikeI don't think Kotonoha is either. Kotonoha's pretty much selfish even if she's nice. That's why their relationship was disfunctional with makoto because he's the same. Not to mention a real innocent girl wouldn't be so mean to Sekai at ep 12(and I still can't shake off her acts in the VN...sorry).
Sekai was a nice and caring girl, but the situations changed her too. I say she deserved someone much better than Makoto.
Yeah, I hope I'm not coming across as someone saying that Sekai's innocent because that's definitely not the case. What I'm trying to get across is that Sekai isn't as bad as some make her out to be. This is why I don't condone her decision to kill Makoto because she ruined her own life by doing so, she should have just moved on.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:36   Link #348
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On this, we also completely agree. Even if she hadn't died, her life would never be the same...
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:37   Link #349
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
That's not what I'm implying. I'm asking if you could give me examples from the anime, not compare it to something else.
It IS an example right from the anime. Ep 12, around 9"30 or 10"00.
Quote:
Everyone lies and some are for good reasons and some are for bad. In this case, Makoto lied to Kotonoha because he didn't know how to tell her that he loved someone else. At this point I wouldn't blame Sekai for believing in him especially considering the fact that Kotonoha was the first person he had a relationship with.
Lieing to cover your cheating requires some pretty circonvoluted circumstance to be a "good" reason. Here he was simply a careless, spineless coward.

Believing someone you are seeing lieing is dumb. You SEE him lieing, you SEE him not being able to be trust, but you trust him. I hardly see how it is justifiable.
(it DOES happen in real life ; but it's simply a case of believing what you want to believe and shutting the brain out)
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My point is that Makoto puts on a facade, I can't blame Sekai for not being able to see past that.
God, please, she IS CHEATING KOTONOHA WITH HIM !
It's not like any fašade in the world can make her believe he's not a cheater while she is doing it herself...
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:40   Link #350
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Well, that's why I put such a big weight on Kotonoha's words at ep 12. She clearly bragged about her relationship with Makoto and even revealed the truth about Setsuna. I think that was the final push. Sekai endured all those betrayals and Makoto's coldness towards her. Not to mention the hormones of pregnancy. She really needed only a little push for her anger to take control. She was convinced Makoto had never loved her and only used her. It's really a big shock of revelation if she tried to earn makoto's love all the time.
So makoto "deserved" it. His actions led to this. But perhaps it's not like he really deserved to die, he deserved to compensate and take responsibility. But he's brought it on himself by his uncaring attitude. It's like deserting from the military. Your comrades are fighting for their lives while you run away.
@Akka: Man, you have a pretty drastic view on cheating and lies. You lie and cheat to some extent every day. Backing out from a disfunctional relationship isn't as huge of a cheating as it seems to be. But makoto was certainly spineless for doing it without properly breaking up with her before. But you know? There's hardly any high schooler being humble enough and honorable to do it.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:58   Link #351
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Well, that's why I put such a big weight on Kotonoha's words at ep 12. She clearly bragged about her relationship with Makoto and even revealed the truth about Setsuna. I think that was the final push. Sekai endured all those betrayals and Makoto's coldness towards
Not to mention the hormones of pregnancy. She really needed only a little push for her anger to take control. She was convinced Makoto had never loved her and only used her. It's really a big shock of revelation if she tried to earn makoto's love all the time.
If you notice, that's practically exactly what happened to Kotonoha in the first part of the serie ^^
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So makoto "deserved" it. His actions led to this. But perhaps it's not like he really deserved to die, he deserved to compensate and take responsibility. But he's brought it on himself by his uncaring attitude. It's like deserting from the military. Your comrades are fighting for their lives while you run away.
On this one we do agree. The best would have been a "karmic punishment" with interest. But it wouldn't have been very believable. This ending is, at least, something logical, and well he deserved it (though Sekai probably didn't deserved to have her whole life wrecked as a result, and Kotonoha certainly didn't).
Quote:
@Akka: Man, you have a pretty drastic view on cheating and lies. You lie and cheat to some extent every day. Backing out from a disfunctional relationship isn't as huge of a cheating as it seems to be. But makoto was certainly spineless for doing it without properly breaking up with her before. But you know? There's hardly any high schooler being humble enough and honorable to do it.
"to some extent", sure. But what Makoto did was clearly FAAAAR above the acceptable, well, "disguise of reality".
Many high schooler manage to act decently (many do not, true), and he lied and cheated for a quite extended period of time (weeks, perhaps monthes). I can accept that a young, inexperienced boy in full-hormones mode can have a not totally perfect behaviour, but honestly, he went long past the limits here.

(well, and yes, I admit I'm pretty unforgiving about cheating ; that's personnal values, and I think that people tend to considerably downplay how much you can hurt someone with love)
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Old 2009-08-21, 15:04   Link #352
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It IS an example right from the anime. Ep 12, around 9"30 or 10"00.

Lieing to cover your cheating requires some pretty circonvoluted circumstance to be a "good" reason. Here he was simply a careless, spineless coward.
Ah I see now, I just quickly re-watched that part.

By the way, I never stated that he had a good reason to lie, I just merely explained one of his reasons for constantly lying to Kotonoha.

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Believing someone you are seeing lieing is dumb. You SEE him lieing, you SEE him not being able to be trust, but you trust him. I hardly see how it is justifiable.
(it DOES happen in real life ; but it's simply a case of believing what you want to believe and shutting the brain out)
Yes, Makoto was lying but he was lying to be with Sekai. He couldn't be trusted after the festival but before that he seemed like a pretty nice guy despite his decision to cheat on Kotonoha after he committed himself to her. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm only more understanding of Sekai's situation.

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God, please, she IS CHEATING KOTONOHA WITH HIM !
It's not like any fašade in the world can make her believe he's not a cheater while she is doing it herself...
The problem is that you don't know whether or not he would cheat on Sekai when he revealed his feelings for her. He doesn't have a history, this is first experiences in relationships and we don't know if he would cheat on every girl he met during the events before the School Festival. It's really only after that it is revealed how Makoto actually is.

On a side note, please refrain from typing in all caps because it's unnecessary. We have italics and bold if you want to highlight a point.
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Old 2009-08-21, 15:24   Link #353
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Yes, Makoto was lying but he was lying to be with Sekai. He couldn't be trusted after the festival but before that he seemed like a pretty nice guy despite his decision to cheat on Kotonoha after he committed himself to her. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm only more understanding of Sekai's situation.

The problem is that you don't know whether or not he would cheat on Sekai when he revealed his feelings for her. He doesn't have a history, this is first experiences in relationships and we don't know if he would cheat on every girl he met during the events before the School Festival. It's really only after that it is revealed how Makoto actually is.

On a side note, please refrain from typing in all caps because it's unnecessary. We have italics and bold if you want to highlight a point.
Well, if you consider it logical to trust someone who spent weeks cheating and lieing extensively, I'm afraid I've run out of arguments.
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Old 2009-08-21, 15:55   Link #354
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Well, if you consider it logical to trust someone who spent weeks cheating and lieing extensively, I'm afraid I've run out of arguments.
If only love were that simple. When it comes to emotions, we act illogical and irrational when it gets the best of us.
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Old 2009-08-21, 15:59   Link #355
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If only love were that simple. When it comes to emotions, we act illogical and irrational when it gets the best of us.
I thought that it was already an accepted fact. I even remember clearly saying that Sekai was willfully blind because she saw what she wanted to see. Several times.
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Old 2009-08-21, 16:44   Link #356
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If you notice, that's practically exactly what happened to Kotonoha in the first part of the serie ^^
Well, if you take out the creepy abortion talks, the "in-your-face" tong battle and the generally bad disposition Makoto and Kotonoha displayed towards Sekai at that particular moment, sure, it was exactly the same...
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Old 2009-08-21, 16:46   Link #357
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Well, if you take out the creepy abortion talks, the "in-your-face" tong battle and the generally bad disposition Makoto and Kotonoha displayed towards Sekai at that particular moment, sure, it was exactly the same...
Well, Makoto, Sekai and Setsuna weren't exactly in the best disposition toward Kotonoha when they finally thrown her back and said "go away"
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Old 2009-08-21, 17:01   Link #358
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Well, that wasn't their highest point, I'll give you that. But I, personally, found the way the "happy" couple behaved in the last episode way more reproachable, even if only because they were addressing a pregnant girl - whose child was fathered by the boy. That's no way to behave, really... Makoto did a very bad thing, there - IMHO, way worse than anything else he did during the whole series. Kotonoha wasn't at her best, either, with those vacant eyes of hers...
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Old 2009-08-21, 17:21   Link #359
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Right. Sekai was never mean to Kotonoha even after she got together with makoto again. She was certainly angered because of obvious reasons but Sekai didn't threatened her or spoke crudely with her. Kotonoha did. Then you have the loss of best friend(we can argue that sekai was the same for Kotonoha, but their relationship wasn't that long to make that strong connection), being used by her boyfriend, betrayed by her friends, neglected by makoto(even after she got pregnant).
We camn say that Kotonoha faced those too, but Sekai's got it many times worse. And she remained sane in contrast with Kotonoha who escaped to her absolute denial and dream world.
And BetoJR is right. Being so mean to your pregnant ex-girlfriend is utter ass move. Somewhere over 9000.
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Old 2009-08-22, 06:29   Link #360
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Right. Sekai was never mean to Kotonoha even after she got together with makoto again.
I don't consider "cheating on your friend for weeks" as not being mean.
Quote:
We camn say that Kotonoha faced those too, but Sekai's got it many times worse. And she remained sane in contrast with Kotonoha who escaped to her absolute denial and dream world.
I don't see how Sekai had it worse. She asked for half happened to her (so hardly can say "I got it bad" on it) and the fact she was stronger and didn't break doesn't make her actions any better (just show she was stronger).
Quote:
But I, personally, found the way the "happy" couple behaved in the last episode way more reproachable, even if only because they were addressing a pregnant girl - whose child was fathered by the boy. That's no way to behave, really...
Quote:
And BetoJR is right. Being so mean to your pregnant ex-girlfriend is utter ass move. Somewhere over 9000.
Makoto is a bastard, that's a given and I don't think anyone will defend him ^^
But Kotonoha...
First she's broken by this time, and not really in the real world anymore. She's not really responsible of her actions anymore.
She believe that Sekai is lying about her pregnancy, so it makes the point quite moot.
And she was the one who was betrayed first, and was left broken on the side. Why should she be nice ? She's pretty justified to be mean to Sekai after what was done to her.
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