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Old 2008-12-15, 11:11   Link #1861
krisslanza
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Join Date: May 2007
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Don't listen to them. Blood is excellent, and the Blood Aura is actually appreciated in parties, rather then a funny plaything.

I merely spec Unholy because I prefer it, but a Blood Knight can easily match an Unholy Knight in DPS.

Unless Dancing Rune Weapon bugs, but then that's so rare it's almost funny.
I had that happen once. It's pretty hilarious. Particularly if your DRW summons a second DRW that kills you
Though I remember some long, long thread about DRW being an awful 51-point talent since Gargoyle does more DPS then it.

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Mograine does Bad Ass dual-wielding now though.
Eeeeh...
Maybe if more swords went across your back instead of at your hip like some knife perhaps...

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Desecration is good for two things: The snare, and the 5% damage increase. Both of them, however, need the ability to proc first. In PVP, that means the skill doesn't necessarily pop when you need it, and targets will rarely stand in one place for long. Plus, you need to stand on the ground for the 5% damage buff. In PVE, it's somewhat more usable, as long as the battle is a tank and spank one, rather then a battle in which the boss and/or mobs move around a lot. Of course, such fights render the snare virtually useless. Plus, relying on the proc means you won't have it all the fight.

In short, Desecration is one of those '5 or nothing' talents if you don't want to rely on procs. Kinda like Blood of the North in Frost. The difference is that Unholy has an alternative to pick, Rage of Rivendare, which gives a 10% damage bonus, double of what Desecration does, to anything infected with Blood Plague, and passively increases your expertise by 5. For me, someone who doesn't like relying on procs, this makes the choice obvious. 5/5 in a skill which has double the benefits? Yes please! It's not like I have to worry about targets running away with my Ghoul bashing or stunning them, and otherwise I'll just reel them in with Death Grip.
80% proc rate is generally high enough. Albiet I suppose in PvP the 100% is far more useful but... Even in a move situation, PvE wise, you should be able to pop up off another Plague Strike in time unless you just have to move a LOT.

Rage of Rivendare is deeper into Unholy though. I can't get that far in with my Death Knight since she's deep enough into Blood to get "Veteran of Third War". Why?
1. It's cool. I mean. Look at that name!
2. RP gimmick
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Old 2008-12-15, 11:35   Link #1862
Keroko
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
I had that happen once. It's pretty hilarious. Particularly if your DRW summons a second DRW that kills you
Though I remember some long, long thread about DRW being an awful 51-point talent since Gargoyle does more DPS then it.
The highest number I've seen was seven. :3

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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
80% proc rate is generally high enough. Albiet I suppose in PvP the 100% is far more useful but... Even in a move situation, PvE wise, you should be able to pop up off another Plague Strike in time unless you just have to move a LOT.
Which is precisely what I find happening in Naxx. A lot.

Anub'Rhekan, you have to get in and out of range, watch for crypt guards, watch for scarab spawns, and of course... the Locust Swarm. Faerlina, control DPS on the adds, make sure AMF stays on the add-tank to help the healers, run after Fearlina. Maexxna, spider adds, people on the walls, don't stand in front of her.

And that's just the spider wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Rage of Rivendare is deeper into Unholy though. I can't get that far in with my Death Knight since she's deep enough into Blood to get "Veteran of Third War". Why?
1. It's cool. I mean. Look at that name!
2. RP gimmick
Ah. Well, if that's your choice, that's your choice.
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Old 2008-12-15, 11:44   Link #1863
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The highest number I've seen was seven. :3
Seven DRW beating you!? How could you even live that long? The thing has crit people for like 1,000's or more.

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Which is precisely what I find happening in Naxx. A lot.

Anub'Rhekan, you have to get in and out of range, watch for crypt guards, watch for scarab spawns, and of course... the Locust Swarm. Faerlina, control DPS on the adds, make sure AMF stays on the add-tank to help the healers, run after Fearlina. Maexxna, spider adds, people on the walls, don't stand in front of her.

And that's just the spider wing.
Well I haven't touched Naxx ever but...
AMF is fun. And not just because of the abbreviation of it

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Ah. Well, if that's your choice, that's your choice.
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Old 2008-12-15, 11:48   Link #1864
Keroko
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Seven DRW beating you!? How could you even live that long? The thing has crit people for like 1,000's or more.
Oh, trust me, those who fell victim to it didn't live longer then two seconds. That one time when a Death Knight came charging at me and died a second later, I will never forget. :3

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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Well I haven't touched Naxx ever but...
AMF is fun. And not just because of the abbreviation of it
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Old 2008-12-15, 12:02   Link #1865
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh, trust me, those who fell victim to it didn't live longer then two seconds. That one time when a Death Knight came charging at me and died a second later, I will never forget. :3
A very:
"I didn't hit it that hard!"
Moment?

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Old 2008-12-15, 12:29   Link #1866
Keroko
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
A very:
"I didn't hit it that hard!"
Moment?
More like an '...okay, what just happened?' moment.

The guy just finished a fight, had some runic power remaining, downed one of his DK potions, charged at me me with full health and near full Runic Power, summoned his Runic weapon...

Then a whole row of Rune Weapons appeared, charged at him, and he fell to the ground. Dead.

That kinda makes you go "uhh, okay...."
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Old 2008-12-15, 12:30   Link #1867
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
More like an '...okay, what just happened?' moment.

The guy just finished a fight, had some runic power remaining, downed one of his DK potions, charged at me me with full health and near full Runic Power, summoned his Runic weapon...

Then a whole row of Rune Weapons appeared, charged at him, and he fell to the ground. Dead.

That kinda makes you go "uhh, okay...."
That sounds incredibly funny to see. Should've screencapped it
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Old 2008-12-15, 12:30   Link #1868
Xellos
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Originally Posted by Komori View Post
I'm curious, what strat did you change to that made it easier? We weren't able to attempt 3 drakes last week but I'm hoping (and I doubt it'll happen) we will this week.
After we downed the first drake, we were having melee go down and deal with disciples while ranged stay on top to continue killing adds and the other drake. We switched to just burning the first two drakes and then having the melee dealing with the disciples.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Interesting spec. No outbreak and Corpse Explosion though? I can understand Corpse Explosion (at least until the next patch) but Outbreak? Why say no to a 30% damage for 3 skills?

Blood caked blade... I found the proc to be a bit too random to rely on for DPS. Would have chosen it if I had the point, but choices had to be made, and it didn't cut it.

*reads on*

*blinks*

Wait, no magic suppression and AMF? Why not? The shell will give you full protection from magic damage for 5 seconds, 10 if glyphed (and believe me, it's well worth the extra 15 seconds cooldown) the AMF is a gorgeous bonus, great when fighting AoE bosses, or when you're fighting tough magic users and your shell is on cooldown.

The aura... I don't see why. It doesn't stack with other movement effects, and your unholy presence gives the same effect anyway.

Nice to see other people agreeing that Desecration isn't worth the 5 points it takes.

Pardon the random rambles, it's mostly curiosity.

I've been asking myself this for a while now... but does Subversion make up for the increased threat Death and Decay causes? I've been hesitant to use it in instances out of fear of grabbing mobs away from the tank and being yelled at.
My spec is based on boss dps. While Outbreak and Corpse Explosion enhance my AoE dps, the points are better spent elsewhere for single target. I only really use PS for bosses as well. Additionally, the bonus to Pestilence is being moved to the Blood tree in the next patch. I might change my spec a bit when they buff Corpse Explosion, but we'll have to see first.

Blood Caked Blade is better than you give it credit for. In my last 25 man Naxx it was 2% of my total dps, about the same as Blood Boil, Plague Strike, and Pestilence. When just looking at boss dps, it's 3% of my dps.

Concerning AMZ. I don't tank atm. Normal AMS does a good job of negating whatever magic damage I might run across. There's always IBF as well.

Concerning Unholy Aura. Movement speed is great. Sure, it may not be necessary but having the raid move out of fires faster and move back within dps range faster is always a plus in my book. This allows them to enchant their boots with a pure dps enchant as well. Additionally, I'm in blood presence. Blood may be the only spec that could benefit from being in Unholy presence, but I don't think enough testing has been done to confirm that.

Concerning Desecration. Nice enough talent when you're not moving. Which isn't enough to justify the points. That damn graphic is annoying as heck too.

Concerning Subversion and DnD. Maybe. All I know is that I use DnD almost all the time lol. DnD is so good. Even with pug tanks, I usually don't have a problem. If I do, I'll adjust accordingly, but hey, there's always IBF (till they nerf it).

I like Unholy and spreading Ebon Plague is great. My only beef atm is the survivability of the Ghoul and Garg. Would like to give Blood a go, but the other DK in my guild is currently DW spec, and it doesn't seem like he'll be switching to Unholy anytime soon.
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Old 2008-12-15, 13:13   Link #1869
Keroko
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I don't tank either, but the Zone is very nifty in helping the healers keep tanks alive. In a situation where a tank suffers magic damage, but can remain stationary, like Faerlina, I usually run over to the tank holding off the adds, drop an AMF, rush back to beat on Fearlina again. It helps reduce the damage that tank receives, and allows the healers to focus more on the poor tank getting beat by the lady.

I know Blood Caked blade can give nice DPS, but between a choice of spending those three points in something which has a proc chance, or improving my Icy Touch, which I will inevitably spam throughout the raid, by 30%, I'll choose the skill I can rely on to work, rather then hope it works.

on Unholy Aura... I'll have a look at my spec later to see if I can spare a point or two, you made a good point.

And it's good to see I can go all out with DnD. :3

On Ghouls, well, like I said. Night of the Dead allows you to re-summon them as fast as they fall. With the next patch and 70% AoE avoidance, that might not even be that necessary anymore too.

I've never had much trouble with my Gargoyle dieing before his timer was up though.
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Old 2008-12-15, 13:23   Link #1870
Xellos
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I certainly don't discount the niche usefulness of AMZ, but atm there's nothing our healers can't handle without it. Also, I'll leave the mob slowing to Thunderclap lol. I'll definitely pickup Imp. IT in a tanking build though.

In pretty much any boss or situation where there is decent AoE damage, my garg is going down in flames. Whether it be Sartharion, 4 Horsemen, Sapphiron, or w/e. I suppose Gargoyle is pretty hax as it is being higher dps or at least on par with DRW, but a little more survivability would be nice.
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Old 2008-12-15, 13:35   Link #1871
Ithekro
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As a warlock speced Destruction (since level 11) I have lots of procs that I do rely on constantly. Before the expansion it was ISM proc on a crit for more shadow damage. Now it is Molten Core off DoTs to increase my Fire damage, Backlash from being hit and Nightfall from Corruption or Drain Life(from glyph only) for some added burst from time to time. And sometimes Nether Protection to reduce incoming damage. Plus now with an engineering trinket (Noise Machine) I get another shield that absords 1,100 damage if hit by melee first.

That is a lot of procs to depend on, but most are up like clockwork, (Nether Protection less so since I can only spec 2/3 into it), and those that aren't are simply a nice bonus when they do proc.

I have found that unless I crit really big, my voidwalker is holding a lot more than he use to, and actually lives through several fighters before I need to heal him (one way or the other).
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Old 2008-12-15, 13:46   Link #1872
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Xellos View Post
I certainly don't discount the niche usefulness of AMZ, but atm there's nothing our healers can't handle without it. Also, I'll leave the mob slowing to Thunderclap lol. I'll definitely pickup Imp. IT in a tanking build though.

In pretty much any boss or situation where there is decent AoE damage, my garg is going down in flames. Whether it be Sartharion, 4 Horsemen, Sapphiron, or w/e. I suppose Gargoyle is pretty hax as it is being higher dps or at least on par with DRW, but a little more survivability would be nice.
Some calculations said Gargoyle is so much superior to DRW that it should be the 51 point in Unholy. Over a minute it can deal like... two or three times the DPS DRW can.
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Old 2008-12-15, 15:00   Link #1873
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Xellos View Post
I certainly don't discount the niche usefulness of AMZ, but atm there's nothing our healers can't handle without it. Also, I'll leave the mob slowing to Thunderclap lol. I'll definitely pickup Imp. IT in a tanking build though.

In pretty much any boss or situation where there is decent AoE damage, my garg is going down in flames. Whether it be Sartharion, 4 Horsemen, Sapphiron, or w/e. I suppose Gargoyle is pretty hax as it is being higher dps or at least on par with DRW, but a little more survivability would be nice.
Mob slowing be damned, I pick Improved Icy Touch for the 30% damage increase. The attack speed redux is just a bonus.

And that's strange... I've seen my Gargoyle survive AoE many a time. Most because he just... well, didn't get hit for some reason. I wonder if the Night of the Dead bonus will apply to the Gargoyle as well?
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Old 2008-12-15, 15:06   Link #1874
Ithekro
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Could it be like the Warlock's demons that have a high percentage chance of not being hit by AoE attacks now. I think it is like a 70% chance of a miss now...maybe more.
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Old 2008-12-15, 15:55   Link #1875
Keroko
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That's the plan. Night of the Dead, a 2 point talent that at the moment reduces the cooldown of our Ghoul summoning abilities, will gain the additional effect of giving 35/70% AoE avoidance. I'm certainly looking forward to it. Re-summoning the Ghoul is a minor hassle, but not having to burn through corpse dusts is something I'm looking forward to.
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Old 2008-12-15, 16:06   Link #1876
Komori
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Could it be like the Warlock's demons that have a high percentage chance of not being hit by AoE attacks now. I think it is like a 70% chance of a miss now...maybe more.
Since 3.0, all Warlock pets have the skill Avoidance which is a passive 80% reduced damage from AoE.
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Old 2008-12-15, 16:29   Link #1877
Keroko
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Originally Posted by PTR notes
Night of the Dead now grants 40/70% passive area spell avoidance to your pet in addition to its current effects.
10% less then the Warlock skill, but considering how easy it is to re-summon our pets in comparison to Warlocks, that's not so bad.
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Old 2008-12-15, 16:36   Link #1878
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Don't listen to them. Blood is excellent, and the Blood Aura is actually appreciated in parties, rather then a funny plaything.
Is it really? Back when I was partying with a Blood DK it seemed like a joke more than anything. That much healing is pretty worthless. Yeah, it's a decent amount of hps spread out over the party, but it only works when people are hurt over along period of time and good healers don't leave people hurt. If it's never going to save your life (and it's very, very unlikely to), then it's doing nothing. And therefore is worthless. I'm a troll shaman, I'm very familiar with worthless heals that sound good on paper (troll regen and healing stream totem).

Incidentally, I've found that Blood DKs do more damage than Unholy, but have less utility (Ebon Plague alone is awesome, Unholy Aura is useful, etc).
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Old 2008-12-15, 16:53   Link #1879
Keroko
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'Appreciated' it's a little bit different from 'very useful.' And yes, I must admit I did have Naxx in mind when I typed that. It did, however, safe my life during more then one stress moment, Though the best time you notice it is when soloing the tougher elites, when there is no healer watching your back and you will find yourself hanging on to the last two digits of health before your cooldowns are over.

But then, Blood Presence takes care of the solo part.

However when it comes to auras, frost and blood are generally preferred over Unholy. I've discussed the virtues of Unholy Aura with a Naxx vet today though, and he agreed that it would be useful to take, especially in battles where speed is essential. Which are plenty in Naxx.

In terms of utility, Unholy have a definite advantage over Blood Knights. Ebon Plague and AMF can help more then just yourself. Blood is obviously more aimed at the solo playstyle, and it excels in that.
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Old 2008-12-15, 17:20   Link #1880
Kyero Fox
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XD DK's are getting buffed, I just went through the patch notes and not one nerf, GL all other classes.!
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