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Old 2007-08-13, 00:49   Link #1
avmoghe
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What do people like about Turn A Gundam?

This is going to be something of a rant with spoilers about Turn A Gundam...so be warned.



Looking over the "Rank the Gundam series" thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26639), I see the people on this forum seem to think quite highly of Turn A Gundam. Turn A comes in second in the "favorite series" poll here (beaten only by Seed). This isn't restricted to this board of course. The ratings over at animenfo.com also show high marks for the show (Here also, it is second only to Seed). So it should be quite clear that the show is a well respected Gundam entry. I often disagree with people's ratings of shows, but at the very least, I was expecting something "decent"....

I just finished watching Turn A Gundam, and I must say that it was, in my opinion, the single worst Gundam series I've ever seen. Here are my complaints:

1.) Atrocious fights: What is Gundam after all? Its a toy commercial, and an excuse to see mecha fight each other. Not a single Gundam show has a decent enough plot or characters to make them the primary reason for watching the show. The fights between the mecha are the primary attraction. On this front, Turn A failed miserably. Not a single fight was memorable (the best of the bunch was the one in episode 46). The action quite frankly bored me to death, and can I be blamed? Am I supposed to take these chumps in the show seriously? Corin Nander? Phil? Poe? Mahirou team captain? Bruno? Jacob? The random brother and sister who liked dancing in the moonlight? The buffoon of a girl who was jumping around in a cat costume? Never once even begin to suspect that these fools could hurt anything other than the ancient militia planes. I didn't even feel any danger for the named "good guy" characters.
Of course, the militia chumps aren't any better. One single ship (Willgame) takes off into space, and we have idiots like Sochie and Mashie (the other chick) fighting toe to toe with the "elite" Mahirou squad? Aside from Harry Ord, the main villain (Gym), and the main hero (Loran), there was not a single pilot I could take seriously.

The body count was quite pathetic of course... Aside from Gavanne, Gym, Agrippa, and (I think) Corin, I dont think anyone of any importance died. (No Teteth does not count)

2.) Stupidity.. in the extreme: I thought Tomino couldn't possibly come up with anything stupider than Earth military handing over Axis to Char in CCA... unfortunately I was wrong. The Kihel / Dianna switch was the dumbest development I've seen in any anime. Let me get this straight... the Queen of the freaking moon comes down to Earth, meets some random girl she barely knows, and decides to switch places with her?!?!?!? This has got to be the dumbest thing a queen could possibly do...give up her position as the symbolic and executive leader of the moon to an earthling. If this was not enough, the show kept on rubbing this in my face... We kept on hearing "ZOMG!! It it Dianna or Kihel???! What will we do?!?!?! " repeatedly throughout the show. Have these people no DNA tests? fingerprint tests? Retina scans? How about asking Kihel something only Dianna would know? (such as a conversation before coming to Earth... Kihel only had access to Diann's computer records.. not records of every single thing Dianna ever die) How about asking Dianna something only Kihel would know? Chumps like this Midgard guy were saying stuff like "aha.. the fact that you reacted to my intrusion in this manner means you are truly Dianna".

Then we have random stupidity inserted here and there in the show (I'll skip over the antics of Corin Nander, and the other random wackos). Phil and Poe are simply forgiven by Dianna for wanting to take over Dianna's authority...Corin Nander is allowed to rejoin Dianna Counter... and given a mobile suit (after Dianna herself tries to execute him for his craziness). In one brilliant episode, every single militia member turns retarded and tries to jump off a spaceship... was this supposed to be some reference to space dementia? Poe, who had supported Phil in trying to take over Dianna's power), starts crying when she sees Dianna coming in a plane?!?!??! Melodrama much?! I could go on... but I'll stop here.


3.) Insert crappy side stories: For some reason, inserting crappy side stories which have nothing to do with the main plot seemed like a good idea to the creators. Teteth's story, the tale of the random old woman on top of hill curing people with flowers, the misunderstood tribal leader..... these random subplots stuck out like a sore thumb (not that the main plot was better by much).


Of course, I won't mention that horrendous designs of the machines... nor the same old bad Tomino habits... (nonsensical philosophy spouted in battles, the cliche "bad guy foiled because bad guy was too stupid to stop talking and kill the target", having mobile suits act randomly against the rules of science fiction, etc...)

So, please, tell me why Turn A is so well liked. Aside from Harry Ord, and some of the music, I honestly cannot think of a single positive aspect...

Here is my updated ranking for anyone who happens to care..(copied mostly from the rank thread mentioned above...) I've only G Gundam left to watch...


--------------------------------------------------
1.) Gundam Seed - After having seen almost every Gundam show, this one remains my clear favorite. Despite its obvious flaws, I still maintain that nothing else in Gundam compares to the last third of the series. This is among my all-time favorite series along with Juuni Kokki, Crest/Banner of the Stars, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

2.) MSG Movies - The movies show substantial improvement (in content, as well as animation) over what I've seen of the TV series. The compression of over 40 episodes into three movies rarely allows for a dull moment. This is an excellent trilogy.


---- All of the series ranked below are ones which I thought were simply mediocre.
3.) Victory Gundam
4.) 0083
5.) Zeta Gundam
6.) 0080
7.) Char's Counterattack
8.) ZZ Gundam
9.) Gundam X
10.) Gundam Seed Destiny
11.) 08th MS Team
12.) Gundam Wing - Endless Waltz
----
----The only Gundam entry that I classify as 'bad'
13.) Gundam Wing
--- The only Gundam entry classified as "atrocious"
14. Turn A Gundam.
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Old 2007-08-13, 01:26   Link #2
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Well I had a response all nicely written up to this that got deleted, so hopefully somebody else can handle this or else you'll just have to wait until I feel like doing it again. The basic jist of it was that you were not paying enough attention to certain cues and plot points and missed overall purpose of a lot of the scenes, and on top of that you seemed to hold a lot of preconceptions about of how you thought the characters should behave, versus how they behaved.
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Old 2007-08-13, 01:34   Link #3
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
What is Gundam after all? Its a toy commercial, and an excuse to see mecha fight each other. Not a single Gundam show has a decent enough plot or characters to make them the primary reason for watching the show.
If you went into Turn A with that mindset you automatically fail...No offense but I feel as if you may actually be Micheal Bay based upon your logic (That's why Transformers is a generic ape-movie because of this type of thinking, but the lowest common denominator needs their flashy explosions and and uber acceptable mecha designs)...

Turn A Gundam is not only my most critically acclaimed G-series it is also in my all-time top 10...No memorable battles??? It seems you need Kira beam-spamming or V2 whizzing and whirling to keep your ADD in check...If you didn't feel the over-bearing passion that was the epic moon-battle with the visions of all Gundam shows being broadcasted via the dark technology then you don't have a pulse (Perhaps my all time favorite Gundam episode)...

The action scenes in this show are believable based on it's context, and gratifying as it progresses logically...Rather than become desensitized because you've seen a trillion beam-shots and random explosions, when something awesome in Turn-A happens it has more impact...But if you are someone who has to see every explosion in high def rather than understand the artistic creativity it takes to give battles atmosphere and expression than this will die at your eardrums...You have to immerse yourself in this series to be a part of it (Something you clearly never even tried to do)...

This show is filled with expressionism at every turn, well thought out dystopian concepts from Tomino (clash of time, technology), deep character development of nearly every person that appears on-screen (even the misc. characters get development)..This series is not pretentious in any way and delivers on it's homages and heritage unlike the most recent G-series...

So much more that I could dissect like a dead frog in chem-lab, but I honestly find it hard to reason with someone whose pure observation of this series is atrocious...It's honestly pathetic really, your assessment that is...But you have the right to feel as such...ATteast you didn't diss it based on the mecha alone, as so many have missed out on this gem because of that ground-level reasoning...
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Old 2007-08-13, 02:15   Link #4
avmoghe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
If you went into Turn A with that mindset you automatically fail...No offense but I feel as if you may actually be Micheal Bay based upon your logic (That's why Transformers is a generic ape-movie because of this type of thinking, but the lowest common denominator needs their flashy explosions and and uber acceptable mecha designs)...
What exactly is wrong with this mindset? What I said is basically true... not a single Gundam series has a plot that is actually worth watching the show for... not one. If I wanted plot, I would watch shows like the Wire....If I wanted characters, I would watch Deadwood... If I wanted these in an anime (hard to get), I'd watch Juuni Kokki, Legend of Galactic Heroes, Crest of the Stars, Death Note... NOT Gundam.

Quote:
Turn A Gundam is not only my most critically acclaimed G-series it is also in my all-time top 10...No memorable battles??? It seems you need Kira beam-spamming or V2 whizzing and whirling to keep your ADD in check...If you didn't feel the over-bearing passion that was the epic moon-battle with the visions of all Gundam shows being broadcasted via the dark technology then you don't have a pulse (Perhaps my all time favorite Gundam episode)...
I dont need Kira or Usso beam spamming.. I need to real pilots who can actually fight. Not chumps like Nander, the Mahirou squadron, Sochie, Meshia (or whatever her name was), the moon dancing lunatics, cat costume girl...

*Real* enemies and *real pilots* from other gundam series: Amuro Rey, Yazzan Gable, Raww Le Crueset, Char Aznable, Paptimus Sciorocco, Haman Khan, Anavel Gato, Athrun Zara, Norris (from 0080), Seed Druggies, Jerid Mesa, Faula Griffon, Jamil Neate, Frost Brothers, (many more).. hell even Chronicle Asher (the loser that he was) came off as a better pilot than any of these chumps...


There was zero passion that I felt when they played scenes from the UC.... absolutely zero. Making repeated referrals to "Dark History" and "we must not repeat our mistakes" and playing scenes from other shows has absolutely no effect on my pulse... This is the same anti-war crap we've been hearing since.. I don't know... the beginning of fictional writing?

Quote:
The action scenes in this show are believable based on it's context, and gratifying as it progresses logically...Rather than become desensitized because you've seen a trillion beam-shots and random explosions, when something awesome in Turn-A happens it has more impact...But if you are someone who has to see every explosion in high def rather than understand the artistic creativity it takes to give battles atmosphere and expression than this will die at your eardrums...You have to immerse yourself in this series to be a part of it (Something you clearly never even tried to do)...
I obviously *tried* to immerse myself into it. I cannot be faulted for not taking this laughable cast of "pilots" seriously.... Make no mistake.. sitting through fifty episodes of this atrocity took quite a bit of my will power.


Quote:
This show is filled with expressionism at every turn, well thought out dystopian concepts from Tomino (clash of time, technology), deep character development of nearly every person that appears on-screen (even the misc. characters get development)..This series is not pretentious in any way and delivers on it's homages and heritage unlike the most recent G-series...

So much more that I could dissect like a dead frog in chem-lab, but I honestly find it hard to reason with someone whose pure observation of this series is atrocious...It's honestly pathetic really, your assessment that is...But you have the right to feel as such...ATteast you didn't diss it based on the mecha alone, as so many have missed out on this gem because of that ground-level reasoning...
Well.. how about actually dissecting like a dead frog? How about backing your argument up with real concrete reasons to refute my complaints instead of essentially meaningless claims about expressionism?

It is entirely possible that I missed something...I'm only human after all...

Last edited by avmoghe; 2007-08-13 at 02:47.
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Old 2007-08-13, 02:16   Link #5
avmoghe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama View Post
Well I had a response all nicely written up to this that got deleted, so hopefully somebody else can handle this or else you'll just have to wait until I feel like doing it again. The basic jist of it was that you were not paying enough attention to certain cues and plot points and missed overall purpose of a lot of the scenes, and on top of that you seemed to hold a lot of preconceptions about of how you thought the characters should behave, versus how they behaved.
I anxiously await this response...As I've mentioned earlier, I may have missed something (since it was incredibly tough to stay awake while watching this show).

As far as preconceptions are concerned .. I'm not quite sure who you're referring to. I certainly didn't expect militia people to simply lose their common sense (I dont give a crap if its their first time in space). I expect pilots to be competent... not lunatics who have "GUNNNNNNNNNNDAAAAAAAAAMMMM" on their minds (again, I do not care if Turn A had caused the Dark History... it doesn't excuse their laughable antics).. or go jumping around in cat costumes....And I certainly expect Dianna to punish people who go against her.. especially when just two episodes earlier she boldly claims "rules must be followed" (as Harry kills Midgard).

I'll be waiting though..

Last edited by avmoghe; 2007-08-13 at 02:35.
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Old 2007-08-13, 02:50   Link #6
wingdarkness
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First-off if you look at Gundam as nothing but a means to sell uber toys, then you fail...Because obviously Gundam is in it for the toys, but series have run the gamut from serious, believable to commercially action-packed, to well thought-out and subtle...Each incarnation still had a goal of selling $hit...

Second, dude, SEED is your "numba 1" G-series of all time...nuff said in my book...

Actually though, no doubt rather, you've read my overall impressions of the series from the thread you linked so why do it again? It's not like you are giving some reasonable explanation filled with decorum, your bashing the $hit out of it on somewhat of an extreme tangent...I have no faith much reasoning will sway your opinion...Your modus operandi for watching a series just seems to be a bit different is all...

I remember a few years ago I got into this heated debate with you over another show that's widely regarded as deep, and well thought out which you found insufferable...IIRC your complaint then was that all series that don't give a 100% non- "up to interpretation" ending SUCK...Seems to me you really have a problem with the prospect of watching something and having to figure out things on your own when it doesn't fit your expectations or preconceptions...The mere fact you went into Turn A gundam thinking that it should be an ape-ish extension of just a model kit with no deep plot elements or intense characterizations points to your fail...You just said this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
...instead of essentially meaningless claims about expressionism?
To quote Majin-Vegeta from when Supreme Kai tried to downplay his obsession with wanting to fight Goku : "Meaningless huh?? What do you know of meaning?!!?!?!? Ahhhhhhhhhhh, Raaaaaaawr!!"

Seriously though, either you get it or you don't...Let me see if I can explain this in a way easy to digest...Expressionism is a man swinging a sword without you actually seeing the man swing the sword...It's implied, it's artistic, it's what was done alot more in predominatley hand-drawn anime before CG took over..It's Turn A rising from the moon-river covered in a black cloak...either you feel it or you don't...Some people can't see it if their only inclanation is to see over-saturated explosions and over-blown mecha action...Subtelty can sometimes enhance far more than overkill....Turn A was simply a different series penned in a style of older dynamics...Dynamics which garner far more than an obtuse ranking of atrocity IMO...
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Old 2007-08-13, 04:17   Link #7
Pride
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
---- All of the series ranked below are ones which I thought were simply mediocre.
3.) Victory Gundam
4.) 0083
5.) Zeta Gundam
6.) 0080
7.) Char's Counterattack
8.) ZZ Gundam
9.) Gundam X
10.) Gundam Seed Destiny
11.) 08th MS Team
12.) Gundam Wing - Endless Waltz
----
----The only Gundam entry that I classify as 'bad'
13.) Gundam Wing
--- The only Gundam entry classified as "atrocious"
14. Turn A Gundam.
Amazing, you've listed some of the most well-received and popular Gundam series as mediocre and atrocious.
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Old 2007-08-13, 09:17   Link #8
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
1.) Atrocious fights: What is Gundam after all?
The battles in Turn A are definitely on the goofy side, so they're not going to be to everyone's taste. I tend to like goofy battles that don't try to pretend that they're realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
The Kihel / Dianna switch was the dumbest development I've seen in any anime. Let me get this straight... the Queen of the freaking moon comes down to Earth, meets some random girl she barely knows, and decides to switch places with her?!?!?!?
It's basically a play on "the Prince and the Pauper" concept. It's one of the two classic stories when it comes to lookalikes, so it shouldn't have been completely unexpected. I think that the execution was quite good, and that it added a lot to the characters, so I don't really mind that it wasn't a particularly smart thing for them to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
3.) Insert crappy side stories: For some reason, inserting crappy side stories which have nothing to do with the main plot seemed like a good idea to the creators. Teteth's story, the tale of the random old woman on top of hill curing people with flowers, the misunderstood tribal leader..... these random subplots stuck out like a sore thumb (not that the main plot was better by much).
I thought that the side stories were a lot better than the main plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
What exactly is wrong with this mindset?
Nothing whatsoever. While some people might think that the plots or characters are the most worthwhile elements of Gundam, it's fine to watch it just for the fights. It's just a matter of taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
There was zero passion that I felt when they played scenes from the UC.... absolutely zero. Making repeated referrals to "Dark History" and "we must not repeat our mistakes" and playing scenes from other shows has absolutely no effect on my pulse... This is the same anti-war crap we've been hearing since.. I don't know... the beginning of fictional writing?
I agree. The creators were reaching too far if they expected everyone to buy this development. I still think that Turn A would have been a better show if it was divorced from the Gundam franchise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
I obviously *tried* to immerse myself into it. I cannot be faulted for not taking this laughable cast of "pilots" seriously.... Make no mistake.. sitting through fifty episodes of this atrocity took quite a bit of my will power.
I think that your mistake was to try to take them seriously. For the most part, the characters are fairly silly, and if you don't like them, then you shouldn't have forced yourself to.


All in all, I think that Turn A Gundam is the best of the Gundam TV shows. In the first half, it displayed more heart than any of the others, the setting was innovative and interesting, there's all sorts of clever writing, and we even got some decent dialogue from time to time. I thought that most of its highlights fell apart during the second half, and it tried a little too hard to be more like a typical Gundam show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pride
Amazing, you've listed some of the most well-received and popular Gundam series as mediocre and atrocious.
Why not? The popularity of a show doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how good it is; and it most certainly doesn't mean that any particular person would like it. Keep in mind that the two most popular Gundam shows in the last twenty years are Seed and Seed Destiny.
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Old 2007-08-13, 13:16   Link #9
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ONE REASON

TURN A GUNDAM IS THE MOST ORIGINAL GUNDAM DESIGNED FROM HEAD TO TOE period.

add the pilot if you want 2 reasons
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Old 2007-08-13, 15:38   Link #10
Gundam Zero Force
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Quote:
---- All of the series ranked below are ones which I thought were simply mediocre.
3.) Victory Gundam
4.) 0083
5.) Zeta Gundam
6.) 0080
7.) Char's Counterattack
8.) ZZ Gundam
9.) Gundam X
10.) Gundam Seed Destiny
11.) 08th MS Team
12.) Gundam Wing - Endless Waltz
----
----The only Gundam entry that I classify as 'bad'
13.) Gundam Wing
Really??? Wow, I actually liked Gundam Wing and the Endless Waltz, and MS 08th team wasn't that bad. As Far as GSD, while I am currently in the middle of the series I don't find it to be medicore . . .

I guess everyone has different tastes but most of these Series listed are actually pretty good considering the popularity/fanbase they recieved . . . . . oh well
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Old 2007-08-13, 18:31   Link #11
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Hi everyone, i usualy only read this forum cos m not a native english speaker but i registered because i think this is a interesting thread.
For the record, i did start gundam in late 2003 with seed, then 79, zeta, zz cca, destiny when it aired then all of the other and finally, last summer, turn a.

I loved 79, 80, zeta, zz, CCA, seed, destiny, X and turn a.
Soso for 8th ms team, 83, f91, victory and G.
I had to force myself to finish wing, it took me nearly 6 month and was a real torture.

As for why i loved turn a, it felt like an ending series.
I mean, having watch all the gundam series back to back, i can see periods.
First 79 to CCA : people thinks newtype are the future on the humanity and humanity will evolve into them.
F91-Victory : its clearly wrong, there is still few newtype.
Fitst AUs G to X : at the end of X, we understand that newtype were only due to random mutation and will desapear.
Seed/Destiny : Kuruze/Mu last newtypes, humanity try to evolve anather way but it doesn't work.
Finally in Turn A: no more newtype, all wars have caused earth to reverse in technology and by the end of the serie, it seem like humanity will finaly evolve and that there won't be anymore space/earth conflict which was not the case at the end of most other series (unless maybe wing).

Of course, this point is valid only if you watch gundam for the story and universe, if you watch it for the fight, you won't find turn a attractive.
IMO, if there were no gundam in gundam but fighter or whatever they want as weapon, i would'nt care cause i watch the show for the story and universe.
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Old 2007-08-13, 18:54   Link #12
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Quote:
if there were no gundam in gundam but fighter or whatever they want as weapon, i would'nt care cause i watch the show for the story and universe.
lol, you got that right While I love the Gundam Series for the Gundams and designs I found myself (while Watching Seed) to be more interested in the story and characters than the battles themselves. When I was younger it was the other way around but now I enjoy seeing the character development and storyline unfold.
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Old 2007-08-13, 19:01   Link #13
avmoghe
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
First-off if you look at Gundam as nothing but a means to sell uber toys, then you fail...Because obviously Gundam is in it for the toys, but series have run the gamut from serious, believable to commercially action-packed, to well thought-out and subtle...Each incarnation still had a goal of selling $hit...
Yes, and in my opinion, not a single of these "well thought out and subtle" have enough actual (read plot) substance to carry on a show for fifty episodes..I wasn't aware of entering any competition when I formed my perspective on the Gundam franchise... so the question of "failing" is irrelevant....

Gundam essentially is a soap opera with machines fighting. Take away the fighting, and you're left with a crappy (often teenage) soap opera. Without the "war", there is NO Gundam. And a teenage soap opera is not worth watching IMO.

Quote:
Second, dude, SEED is your "numba 1" G-series of all time...nuff said in my book...
And? Is this some sort of anomaly? The rank thread mentioned earlier shows that Seed is selected as being their favorite by more people on this board than any other Gundam Series...It is certainly not restricted to this forum. You only need look at the series popularity in Japan, online ratings, many anime reviewers (One example: Chris Beveridge, the owner of www.animeondvd.com, has stated that he enjoyed Seed more than Zeta - the old school fan favorite)

I do not claim that popularity among these people is a true measure of series quality (if there is any such thing)....I merely point out that a very large portion of Gundam fans do indeed like Gundam Seed...

Quote:
Actually though, no doubt rather, you've read my overall impressions of the series from the thread you linked so why do it again? It's not like you are giving some reasonable explanation filled with decorum, your bashing the $hit out of it on somewhat of an extreme tangent...I have no faith much reasoning will sway your opinion...Your modus operandi for watching a series just seems to be a bit different is all...
I certainly did not read your impression of the series in that thread... I only entered that thread to copy my ranking which I had posted. I updated the ranking with Turn A in my OP.

What part of my post is unreasonable? I certainly have not been lacking in decorum to any other forum member (I have attacked no one personally). I listed my complaints in the form of a rant ... with all the blame going to the creators of the show.

Quote:
I remember a few years ago I got into this heated debate with you over another show that's widely regarded as deep, and well thought out which you found insufferable...IIRC your complaint then was that all series that don't give a 100% non- "up to interpretation" ending SUCK...Seems to me you really have a problem with the prospect of watching something and having to figure out things on your own when it doesn't fit your expectations or preconceptions...The mere fact you went into Turn A gundam thinking that it should be an ape-ish extension of just a model kit with no deep plot elements or intense characterizations points to your fail...You just said this...
The 100% non-up to interpretation criteria that I use applies to absolutely major plot points.. not every single aspect of the show. Ambiguity is essentially impossible to get rid of in storytelling... but when it comes to an important plot point, there must be one and only one reasonable explanation that can be deduced from the show.

I have no problem figuring things out on my own.. as long as I'm guaranteed that a unique (unique in the mathematical sense) and provable solution exists.. (which means anyone who claims otherwise can be disproved with a minimum amout of subjectivity). A puzzle without a solution is absolutely worthless and a waste of time.


Quote:
Seriously though, either you get it or you don't...Let me see if I can explain this in a way easy to digest...Expressionism is a man swinging a sword without you actually seeing the man swing the sword...It's implied, it's artistic, it's what was done alot more in predominatley hand-drawn anime before CG took over..It's Turn A rising from the moon-river covered in a black cloak...either you feel it or you don't...Some people can't see it if their only inclanation is to see over-saturated explosions and over-blown mecha action...Subtelty can sometimes enhance far more than overkill....Turn A was simply a different series penned in a style of older dynamics...Dynamics which garner far more than an obtuse ranking of atrocity IMO...
I don't need you to explain what expressionism is to me... I told you to respond with concrete statements to my complaints. Let me explain in a manner easy to digest..... The next thing I want to hear is ..

"It was a brilliant idea for Dianna to give up her power to a virtually unknown earthling because .... " (You fill in the ...)

I'm not claiming expressionism as a whole is meaningless.. I'm saying it is meaningless to this conversation. It's presence or lack there of cannot address boring mecha fighting, nor character stupidity... [no.. no subtlety (that I'm allegedly supposed to have missed) can make these atrocious fights acceptable.. ]

Last edited by avmoghe; 2007-08-13 at 19:18.
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Old 2007-08-13, 19:14   Link #14
avmoghe
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The battles in Turn A are definitely on the goofy side, so they're not going to be to everyone's taste. I tend to like goofy battles that don't try to pretend that they're realistic.
Fair enough. The thought of this Gundam series being some sort of a joke or parody certainly crossed my mind repeatedly (In fact, I was almost convinced when the militia turned retarded and started fighting to get off the ship). Given that they were talking about the holocaust of humanity with nanomachines, I chose to take the show seriously.....

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It's basically a play on "the Prince and the Pauper" concept. It's one of the two classic stories when it comes to lookalikes, so it shouldn't have been completely unexpected. I think that the execution was quite good, and that it added a lot to the characters, so I don't really mind that it wasn't a particularly smart thing for them to do.
This may have to do with the above (me taking the show seriously), but the Kihel/Dianna switch was quite important and resulted in people's lives changing (ending, in some cases). I was quite literally left shocked when Kihel (sensibly) reminded Dianna of the possibility of them being caught... and Dianna in her wisdom said "we'll just apologize!"

If these are the sort of decisions Dianna takes, I can fully understand this Agrippa fellow wanting to kill her....

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Nothing whatsoever. While some people might think that the plots or characters are the most worthwhile elements of Gundam, it's fine to watch it just for the fights. It's just a matter of taste.
Agreed, it may be a matter of taste. As I said before, the teenage soap opera (what Gundam boils down to without the fighting and the war) is not up my alley

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I agree. The creators were reaching too far if they expected everyone to buy this development. I still think that Turn A would have been a better show if it was divorced from the Gundam franchise.
Hm.... perhaps then I wouldn't be tempted to take the show seriously? If I knew it was a parody/light hearted fare going in, my outlook might have changed...

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I think that your mistake was to try to take them seriously. For the most part, the characters are fairly silly, and if you don't like them, then you shouldn't have forced yourself to.
Quite possible.. see above...

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Originally Posted by Pride View Post
Amazing, you've listed some of the most well-received and popular Gundam series as mediocre and atrocious.
Yes, let's just say my tastes do not agree with the general Gundam fandom...
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Old 2007-08-13, 20:11   Link #15
Shiroth
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What do i like about Turn A Gundam? Okay, i'll sum this one up easily:

- Moustache
- Moon Hippies
- Harry Ord

Seriously, i could go on with examples for ages. It is my favourite series of all time after all.
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Old 2007-08-13, 20:30   Link #16
brightman
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Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
Agreed, it may be a matter of taste. As I said before, the teenage soap opera (what Gundam boils down to without the fighting and the war) is not up my alley
Eh? The only Gundam that really resembles a soap opera is Gundam Seed, and that's supposed to be your favorite. The Tomino-written Gundam are totally different animals...

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Hm.... perhaps then I wouldn't be tempted to take the show seriously? If I knew it was a parody/light hearted fare going in, my outlook might have changed...
I thought the whole idea of a mustached Gundam would make anyone not take the show completely seriously... Because really, the whole show is not just about the culmination of 20 years of Gundam, its also about Tomino giving the finger to the long established franchise and its hardcore fans (whom he dislikes). Therefore its non-serious nature and the way the characters tend to behave unconventionally and step all over hallow traditions reflect that.
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Old 2007-08-13, 20:55   Link #17
avmoghe
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Eh? The only Gundam that really resembles a soap opera is Gundam Seed, and that's supposed to be your favorite. The Tomino-written Gundam are totally different animals...
How so? If the "war" and "fighting" is removed from Tomino Gundams .. they are mostly teenage "coming of age" soap operas ... aka... filled with love interests, family relationships, etc...

Wikipedia claims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_op...and_storylines)

"an emphasis on family life, personal relationships, sexual dramas, emotional and moral conflicts; some coverage of topical issues; set in familiar domestic interiors with only occasional excursions into new locations".

Of course, the last part of that statement does not hold due to the presence of a space war..... We are not talking about shows like Gungrave (focus on criminal life and monsters), or 12 kingdoms (Historical/fantasy), Higrashi (horror)...

Nope.. Gundam = war/fighting + soap opera.


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I thought the whole idea of a mustached Gundam would make anyone not take the show completely seriously... Because really, the whole show is not just about the culmination of 20 years of Gundam, its also about Tomino giving the finger to the long established franchise and its hardcore fans (whom he dislikes). Therefore its non-serious nature and the way the characters tend to behave unconventionally and step all over hallow traditions reflect that.
Since when does having a moustache on one Gundam imply that the show was not to be taken seriously? I found it odd.... (and aesthetically displeasing), but did not start thinking of the show as a parody..

I mean, we *ARE* talking about a show where people are desperately fighting to prevent the holocaust of the earth with nanomachines.....

Last edited by avmoghe; 2007-08-13 at 21:06.
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Old 2007-08-13, 20:58   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
What is Gundam after all? Its a toy commercial, and an excuse to see mecha fight each other. Not a single Gundam show has a decent enough plot or characters to make them the primary reason for watching the show.
Alright, I'm sure you may, or may not already know this, but the original Gundam series was created before any toys came out on the market. The only real impact marketing had over the development of the show was the coloration of the titular Gundam. Products come out after the series does. Gundam isn't like G1 Transformers, where every new character in the show went along with a toy release. I'll also have you know that 08th MS Team, which is ranked fairly low on your list, by the way, ran for three consecutive years on Japanese television, despite it having less than 15 episodes. It wasn't some hollow toy hocking commercial, is was a great series with amazing action, great characters, and one of the most meaningful stories I've seen from Gundam since 0080.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
2.) Stupidity.. in the extreme: I thought Tomino couldn't possibly come up with anything stupider than Earth military handing over Axis to Char in CCA... unfortunately I was wrong.
That is a good point, but Tomino intended for it to be stupid. If you're a politician in the EF, you are a goddamn idiot.


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Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
Of course, I won't mention that horrendous designs of the machines... nor the same old bad Tomino habits... (nonsensical philosophy spouted in battles, the cliche "bad guy foiled because bad guy was too stupid to stop talking and kill the target", having mobile suits act randomly against the rules of science fiction, etc...)
Mech design is a matter of opinion all the way around, but I though the designs were unique. Before I even saw the series, I bought a Turn A Gundam model, simply because it was such a bizarre and original take on the Gundam design.
Secondly, The whole, "bad guy foiled..." thing isn't Tomino's creation. That happens to everybody. Nonsensical philosophy spouted in battle is a staple in every anime, and MS almost never bow to any laws of physics other than those pointed out in the show itself. 4Tran can vouch for me on that, I tried numerous times to try to prove MS feasable in combat, and he, amongst many others, shot me down every step of the way with real world examples of machinery and physics. Damn science.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
Here is my updated ranking for anyone who happens to care..(copied mostly from the rank thread mentioned above...) I've only G Gundam left to watch...


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1.) Gundam Seed - After having seen almost every Gundam show, this one remains my clear favorite. Despite its obvious flaws, I still maintain that nothing else in Gundam compares to the last third of the series. This is among my all-time favorite series along with Juuni Kokki, Crest/Banner of the Stars, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
Alright, I am so sick of everybody praising SEED as the best series ever. The first series started off as a MSG rehash, and eventually took it's own path, which I respect, but Destiny was a total and utter rip off of Zeta in all but the most minute aspects. I'll give Seed credit, it's a great series, but once you get past the fact that the MS are shinier and more really really fast, it's nothing spectacular.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Dude, SEED is your "numba 1" G-series of all time...nuff said in my book...
Thank you.

Now I must say, since you haven't seen G Gundam, you'll probably hate it too. It's one of those series that uses the Gundam concept in a way you don't see in your average series. It's basically Gundam mixed with Mortal Kombat. If you don't think that'll be worth your time, don't bother. I don't want to see another rant like this again.
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Old 2007-08-13, 21:26   Link #19
brightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
How so? If the "war" and "fighting" is removed from Tomino Gundams .. they are mostly teenage "coming of age" soap operas ... aka... filled with love interests, family relationships, etc...

Wikipedia claims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_op...and_storylines)

"an emphasis on family life, personal relationships, sexual dramas, emotional and moral conflicts; some coverage of topical issues; set in familiar domestic interiors with only occasional excursions into new locations".

Of course, the last part of that statement does not hold due to the presence of a space war..... We are not talking about shows like Gungrave (focus on criminal life and monsters), or 12 kingdoms (Historical/fantasy), Higrashi (horror)...

Nope.. Gundam = war/fighting + soap opera.
Except Tomino's Gundam aren't about family life, nor do they focus much on personal relationships. Those are the biggies. You have to understand that soap operas aren't just a definition. They are a style of storytelling. Anyone who watches Tomino and soap operas regularly should be able to distinguish the two. Its not quite as easy for Seed and Seed Destiny.

Anyway, you can't remove war from Tomino's Gundams (save for Turn A, but that's styled more like a historical drama anyway). War is essentially what defines the plot, the characters, and their situations. For most of Tomino's Gundams, relationships do not change the characters, wars do. That automatically means Tomino Gundam != soap. I agree they are "coming of age" stories though. But who says those are soaps?

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Since when does having a moustache on one Gundam imply that the show was not to be taken seriously? I found it odd.... (and aesthetically displeasing), but did not start thinking of the show as a parody..
Considering that the show's characters spent the first half of the show making fun of that trait, it should have at least hit you then... But then again, if you don't get it, you don't get it... Can't help you with that...

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I mean, we *ARE* talking about a show where people are desperately fighting to prevent the holocaust of the earth with nanomachines.....
Ever watched the Italian movie, "Life is Beautiful"? That's a comedy about the real Holocaust. Yes, its a comedy, and an Academy Award winning one at that (meaning that it's not just something tasteless). So think again.

Anyway, be glad you haven't seen G Gundam yet. You'd have a hay day with that one, with your completely serious attitude on things.
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Last edited by brightman; 2007-08-13 at 21:38.
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Old 2007-08-13, 21:45   Link #20
avmoghe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
Alright, I'm sure you may, or may not already know this, but the original Gundam series was created before any toys came out on the market. The only real impact marketing had over the development of the show was the coloration of the titular Gundam. Products come out after the series does. Gundam isn't like G1 Transformers, where every new character in the show went along with a toy release.
Yes, I'm perfectly aware of this in case of the original Gundam (though you cannot deny that this has changed with later series). Whether the original Gundam had marketing forces driving it is really beside my point.... what I was claiming is that Gundam is primarily nothing more than an excuse to see machines fighting each other. The war and the fighting *define* Gundam far more than any characters or themes...

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I'll also have you know that 08th MS Team, which is ranked fairly low on your list, by the way, ran for three consecutive years on Japanese television, despite it having less than 15 episodes. It wasn't some hollow toy hocking commercial, is was a great series with amazing action, great characters, and one of the most meaningful stories I've seen from Gundam since 0080.
The fact that it is ranked so low on my list should clue you in to what I thought of it. Again, it really does not matter if it was or was not a toy commercial... what *is* in debate here is whether the fighting between machines is central to Gundam... (If you recall this discussion is about the lack of good fights in Turn A)...


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That is a good point, but Tomino intended for it to be stupid. If you're a politician in the EF, you are a goddamn idiot.
Uh.. no. This was not stupidity of politicians, this was stupidity of the writer (Tomino). No Federation should have been stupid enough to hand over Axis to Char.... not unless the Federation members were actually replaced by real life monkeys.


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Mech design is a matter of opinion all the way around, but I though the designs were unique. Before I even saw the series, I bought a Turn A Gundam model, simply because it was such a bizarre and original take on the Gundam design.
Secondly, The whole, "bad guy foiled..." thing isn't Tomino's creation. That happens to everybody. Nonsensical philosophy spouted in battle is a staple in every anime, and MS almost never bow to any laws of physics other than those pointed out in the show itself. 4Tran can vouch for me on that, I tried numerous times to try to prove MS feasable in combat, and he, amongst many others, shot me down every step of the way with real world examples of machinery and physics. Damn science.
Yes... unique... something completely different from "good" or even "okay". Hell, I'm sure a 2 year old can draw random shapes, which may get animated into Gundams.. and they'd be "unique". But is it worthy of being put in a show?... I don't think so. Either way, this is more opinion as you have stated...

I don't think you understand what I mean by "laws of science fiction" (not laws of physics by the way). Permit me to go on a tangent here....

What is the difference between science fiction and fantasy? Both show events which are impossible by current scientific standards.... so what is the difference?

The primary litmus test is "are the scientific impossibilities overcome through science or not"? For example, Star Trek shows ships going faster than light speed, and this is acheived through (fictional) scientific devices designed for that purpose. Hence Star Trek is classified as "science fiction". Dragonball Z on the other hand does not have any scientific devices that let people blow up planets. The scientific impossibility is overcome by mystical natural powers....

So essentially, in science fiction, every impossibility must be shown to be directly caused by fictional scientific devices designed to get over that impossibility. Almost every Gundam violates this rule to some small degree... (Random seed eyes from Gundam Seed come to mind here)

Tomino, unfortunately, has a horrendous habit of completely ignoring this rule in critical places. The ending of CCA, for example....completely ignores this rule in favor of some horseshit statement about "the potential of humanity" that Tomino wanted to make. The psycho frame was designed by the Gundam scientists to improve Amuro's reflexes... that's it. Nobody designed the Nu Gundam to push back Asteroids, create Green auras around the globe, brainwash the Neo Zeon soldiers into pushing Axis back.. when just two minutes earlier, they put their blood into wiping out Earth.. Tomino's technology often does not do what it was designed to do. As I've said before, Tomino takes Newtype+gundam as a license to throw all kinds of random crap onto the screen...(See random Zeta Gundam ghosts and various other newtype miracles for more examples).

And this is what I meant by Tomino continuing his "bad habit" of not following the rules of science fiction into Turn A. Why exactly does the Turn A shoot off random beams to protect Harry? Even Loran says he does not know what his machine is doing. Gundams and Mobile Suits should NEVER do anything like magically protecting a named character (Spare me the bs about "its a learning machine"...such a powerful beam should have gone off a thousand times before in the series instead of waiting till episode 40+)..

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Alright, I am so sick of everybody praising SEED as the best series ever. The first series started off as a MSG rehash, and eventually took it's own path, which I respect, but Destiny was a total and utter rip off of Zeta in all but the most minute aspects. I'll give Seed credit, it's a great series, but once you get past the fact that the MS are shinier and more really really fast, it's nothing spectacular.
Err... what does this have to do with Destiny? Did you see where I ranked Destiny? Seed is my favorite followed by the MSG movies.....



Thank you.
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Now I must say, since you haven't seen G Gundam, you'll probably hate it too. It's one of those series that uses the Gundam concept in a way you don't see in your average series. It's basically Gundam mixed with Mortal Kombat. If you don't think that'll be worth your time, don't bother. I don't want to see another rant like this again.
If you dont want to see another rant, heed the nice little warning I gave at the top of my OP and leave the thread.

For your information, I've already watched six episodes of G Gundam a long time ago.. and I could not bare to continue. I'll see if I can muster up the willpower in the future...

Last edited by avmoghe; 2007-08-13 at 22:01.
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