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Old 2007-08-16, 19:27   Link #61
Gundam Zero Force
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Originally Posted by dodgethis_sg View Post
If there wasn't any 'super robot crap' back', there wouldn't be mecha in the first place, nor would Tomino have created Gundam.
Well I'm just glad that Gundam is around becasue I enjoy the series. There is nothing like it. Sure there are other mecha shows and stuff but out of all of them I really like Gundam anime the most.

Thank you Tomino!
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Old 2007-08-16, 19:34   Link #62
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Rii_Mashuu View Post
I agree with the previous poster. Turn A was crap. The story was ridiculous and some of it didnt make any sesne, like the black history thing. And the simple fact that it "ranks high" with SEED automatically tells me its garbage. SEED was a horrible series and the only kind of people who like it are people who never saw the original series or any of the UC universe. UC is REAL Gundam, not the garbage they spit out today. The only reason SEED ranks so high is because it appeals to kids these days, kids who never saw a REAL Gundam series. Then again, most kids dont appreciate the original series.

Also, dont steryotype Gundam as a "toy commercial". Thats an idiotic statement. Ill agree that SEED was, just because it was the worst thing since G Gundam. But Gundam was a revolutionary anime. If it wasnt for Gundam we'd still be stuck with the super robot crap. Gundam set the standard mech anime, and to down play it and call it a "toy commercial" is insane. Things like that are the reason that Gundam (sadly) will probably never be popular in America again. The new animu fans dont appreciate Gundam for what it is and dont pay any attention to the story.
You dare to call Super robot crap, how can you call show like Gunbuster, Diebuster, Gaogaigar Final and Dendo crap. Some these shows are better than many real type shows.
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Old 2007-08-16, 20:02   Link #63
Gundam Zero Force
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SEED was a horrible series and the only kind of people who like it are people who never saw the original series or any of the UC universe. UC is REAL Gundam, not the garbage they spit out today. The only reason SEED ranks so high is because it appeals to kids these days, kids who never saw a REAL Gundam series. Then again, most kids dont appreciate the original series.
Hey now I've seen the original Gundam Series (which I think are still great and I appreciate) but I also like Gundam Seed at the same time. I think the new series is fine. It all depends on what each person is into really. Some people like the traditional Guindam stuff, others like the newer style, and other people, like me, enjoy both.
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Old 2007-08-17, 00:03   Link #64
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
At that point in the story, there wasn't really any war at all. Dianna would continually order her forces to not attack the Inglessian people, and they'd constantly find ways to circumvent that order. And the Dianna Counter was so much superior to anything the Militia had except for Turn A, that the conflict stayed strictly low-key. The war, such as it was, didn't really start up until the Militia foolishly launched their attack, after the switch. If there had been a war, there'd be no way for Dianna and Kihel to meet as they did.
There certainly was a war going on.. It started the moment Poe fried one of the cities.. There was of course a temporary delay for attempted negotiations.... negotiations which could have determined the fate of Dianna's beloved moonrace and her beloved Earthrace as well (she obviously wanted to avoid either side having casualties)... In either case, she had no absolutely no business stepping away from the scene to frolic among the earth race as Kihel.... especially leaving someone like Kihel in charge of her subordinates. She the lives of everyone involved at unnecessary risk by taking off... there is absolutely no way around this.

Quote:
And when I spoke of "lack of loyalty", I don't mean betrayal at all. Most of Dianna's people and troops seemed to genuinely like her, but they displayed almost no respect for her authority (this seems to be surprisingly common in Tomino shows). Dianna, and Kihel in her place, had very little capability of changing things for either good or ill. It's only natural that such an environment ended up stifling her.
Even worse then.... This makes all the more reason that the real leader should stay in her place, and try someting to keep her people in check. Putting someone like Kihel there (who had other concerns such as reading Dianna's records to pull off the act) is essential abandonment. Of course, more often than not people did follow her orders..... especially in the first 10 episodes of the show. In either case, Dianna is the one that belongs in the leadership role, not an unknown enemy secretary.

Quote:
In normal circumstances, it could have been disasterous. However, the situation in Turn A was anything but normal. First, the Dianna Counter easily swept aside the Militia. In fact, they were so much stronger that no amount of intelligence would have made any difference. Second, there really wasn't any intelligence to gather - troop numbers, deployment, intentions and capabilities; Inglessa already knew about all of that. The only things of interest that Kihel could have passed on were that the Dianna Counter were strictly amateurs, and that Dianna herself had almost no real power. And both points should have been obvious to any astute observer. Finally, who could Kihel have told any of this information to? Guin Lineford was an idiot, and no one else had the ability to do anything useful with any important information (assuming that any existed) she gathered.
Dianna Counter's superiority is not something that can be taken for granted. Obviously the miltia was digging up mobile suits during this period, and getting stronger by the day. Pilots like Sochie were capable of fighting regular moonrace military (as the show would have us believe). Any type of intelligence could be useful..... supply lines, locations of prominent moonrace people that could be targeted for assasination, etc. I doubt Inglessa knew inside information such as which units were weak due to maintainence, low supplies, etc. Every single life lost here in a possible attack by the militia and their mobile suits would have been on Dianna's head.... Hell, with her position, as the queen, she could have directly ordered people around to move (to better match the attacks).... diverted security, just about anything. In the worst case, she could have let earthrace "friends" into the Soriel, and assasinated high ranking moonrace members to reduce morale. Equipment sabotage, suicide attacks...... anything is possible.

The sky is the absolute limit here....Colonel Mihael, Guin Lineford, hell any earthrace member who hated the moonrace could have been used to do damage ... damage that would not have been possible (or much harder) to inflict had Dianna stayed in her place...

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I don't think that any of this would have amounted to much if they had made the switch back after a couple of days.
Herein lies another issue.... There is no guarantee whatsoever that Kihel just doesn't hire random earthrace friends of hers to just kill Dianna (while she is posing as Kihel).....

Putting a possible enemy into the leadership position of your military was a risk that could have lead to bad leadership at best and sabotage of the hightest order at worst..... The risk was not worth taking to someone who actually cares about the people of the moon and the Earth. It is a risk that did NOT need to be taken and has not been taken by anyone else in any other anime I've seen...
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Old 2007-08-17, 08:37   Link #65
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Originally Posted by avmoghe
There certainly was a war going on.. It started the moment Poe fried one of the cities..
I don't know... The level of conflict seemed to be much less than a war; and nobody on either side of the conflict treated it as one. By the time they made the switch, it had just about completely wound down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
There was of course a temporary delay for attempted negotiations.... negotiations which could have determined the fate of Dianna's beloved moonrace and her beloved Earthrace as well (she obviously wanted to avoid either side having casualties)... In either case, she had no absolutely no business stepping away from the scene to frolic among the earth race as Kihel.... especially leaving someone like Kihel in charge of her subordinates. She the lives of everyone involved at unnecessary risk by taking off... there is absolutely no way around this.
The way that I interpret it, they were in the middle of negotiations, and that they'd switch back at the next round. And they were as much Dianna's keepers as they were her subordinates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Even worse then.... This makes all the more reason that the real leader should stay in her place, and try someting to keep her people in check. Putting someone like Kihel there (who had other concerns such as reading Dianna's records to pull off the act) is essential abandonment. Of course, more often than not people did follow her orders..... especially in the first 10 episodes of the show. In either case, Dianna is the one that belongs in the leadership role, not an unknown enemy secretary.
Nothing that she'd done in the past seemed to make much difference in her troops' obedience. In such a situation, it makes sense for a leader to do something to try to gain a slightly different perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Dianna Counter's superiority is not something that can be taken for granted. Obviously the miltia was digging up mobile suits during this period, and getting stronger by the day. Pilots like Sochie were capable of fighting regular moonrace military (as the show would have us believe).
At that point, the Inglessian Militia was far weaker than the Dianna Counter, and there was no sign that anything would change in the near future. It was Luziana that was capable of putting up a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Any type of intelligence could be useful..... supply lines, locations of prominent moonrace people that could be targeted for assasination, etc. I doubt Inglessa knew inside information such as which units were weak due to maintainence, low supplies, etc.
It wouldn't have made much difference either way: the Dianna Counter didn't know anything about operational security, and the Militia had no way of exploiting any knowledge they gained. Alternatively, Dianna based everything on her appraisal of Kihel's character. It's something that's done as a lark, and it should be viewed from that perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Putting a possible enemy into the leadership position of your military was a risk that could have lead to bad leadership at best and sabotage of the hightest order at worst..... The risk was not worth taking to someone who actually cares about the people of the moon and the Earth. It is a risk that did NOT need to be taken and has not been taken by anyone else in any other anime I've seen...
I'm not really trying to claim that the switch was a good idea, but more that it's not out of line with either Dianna's character or her situation. To be honest, "the Prince and the Pauper" type stories aren't completely logical nor are they supposed to be realistic; Turn A Gundam is a story in the same vein, so they fit each other fairly well.

By the way, you've never seen a version of "the Prince and the Pauper"?
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Old 2007-08-17, 09:54   Link #66
avmoghe
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post


I'm not really trying to claim that the switch was a good idea, but more that it's not out of line with either Dianna's character or her situation. To be honest, "the Prince and the Pauper" type stories aren't completely logical nor are they supposed to be realistic; Turn A Gundam is a story in the same vein, so they fit each other fairly well.

By the way, you've never seen a version of "the Prince and the Pauper"?
Okay, as long as you're not arguing that the switch was a good idea (and the other above stipulations), I doubt the other differences in our interpretations of the Moonrace situation are worth arguing over...(mostly because the show itself tends to focus on the characters instead of the war)

Nope, I've never seen a full version of "the Prince and the Pauper"... though I indeed have heard of the tale countless times in conversations, passing reference, etc..
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Old 2007-08-17, 18:57   Link #67
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Originally Posted by 4tran
I'm not really trying to claim that the switch was a good idea, but more that it's not out of line with either Dianna's character or her situation. To be honest, "the Prince and the Pauper" type stories aren't completely logical nor are they supposed to be realistic; Turn A Gundam is a story in the same vein, so they fit each other fairly well.
Well shoot the Sheriff and call me Sally, I do declare we are in perfect agreement here...To ignore the context of Turn A (in this vein) is to miss out on this very simplistic and symbolic element...
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Old 2007-08-17, 21:26   Link #68
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't know... The level of conflict seemed to be much less than a war; and nobody on either side of the conflict treated it as one. By the time they made the switch, it had just about completely wound down.
Well, in the beginning I think it was more of a political conflict and stuffs like that, with the real war more or less really starting with the coup.
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Old 2007-08-17, 23:31   Link #69
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Originally Posted by avmoghe View Post
Nope, I've never seen a full version of "the Prince and the Pauper"... though I indeed have heard of the tale countless times in conversations, passing reference, etc..
Even if you haven't seen "the Prince and the Pauper" itself, it's quite likely for you to have come across one of any number of stories based on it. It's the second most common story archetype when it comes to dealing with lookalikes.

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Well, in the beginning I think it was more of a political conflict and stuffs like that, with the real war more or less really starting with the coup.
That sums up my thoughts. The fighting seemed to be at a low intensity until Gym Ghingnham attacked. Luziana didn't want a full-blown war, and the Moonrace "Queen" had specifically ordered the Dianna Counter against escalation. If it weren't for Guin's actions, the Dianna Counter might not have really fought with Ameria at all.
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Old 2007-08-20, 08:49   Link #70
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If it weren't for Guin's actions, the Dianna Counter might not have really fought with Ameria at all.
Not only is this true, it also reminds me how much i lol at:
Spoiler for Guin:
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Old 2009-01-21, 06:24   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
Not only is this true, it also reminds me how much i lol at:
Spoiler for Guin:
Spoiler for Guin:
Personally, I absolutely LOVED the setting; which is, in my knowledge, unprecedented in a Gundam series. There's something about Gundams in the 1920s that feels fresh and new. I think Loran is better than the standard Gundam protaganist, because his ideals never waivered or were uncertain. Plus, I was loving that he got his own ship and people under his command, since that was different too. I remember that soft song(I think the name of it was called "Moon") when they showed Dianna sometimes; that was one of the most beautiful tracks I've heard in a Gundam series. Harry Ord was pretty damn sweet, too(almost, ALMOST as good as Xecks/Zecks[GWg]), and entertaining enemies and supporting chars.

I'd say the only thing I did dislike was the general level of power for the Earth side; sometimes it was really lacking, and Loran would do most of the fighting.
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Old 2009-01-21, 08:14   Link #72
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I watched the first 10...ish episodes of Turn-A and I found them rather slow in pace and lacking action so I didn't bother watching the rest.
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Old 2009-01-21, 08:31   Link #73
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People nowadays do not have the patience to wait for flowers to bloom and even less patience for it to bear fruits.

I always felt a great sense of pity for Tomino's recent works and how people don't have the patience. Somehow people are talking about plot and trainwrecks when they're so extremely shallow that they can't even see past designs and what is presented to them.

Doesn't look cool = boring, no action = slow pace, doesn't spoonfeed you the story = no plot. What?
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Old 2009-01-21, 08:38   Link #74
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
People nowadays do not have the patience to wait for flowers to bloom and even less patience for it to bear fruits.

I always felt a great sense of pity for Tomino's recent works and how people don't have the patience. Somehow people are talking about plot and trainwrecks when they're so extremely shallow that they can't even see past designs and what is presented to them.

Doesn't look cool = boring, no action = slow pace, doesn't spoonfeed you the story = no plot. What?
I agree I'm gulity of impatience too.
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Old 2009-01-21, 09:49   Link #75
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
People nowadays do not have the patience to wait for flowers to bloom and even less patience for it to bear fruits.

I always felt a great sense of pity for Tomino's recent works and how people don't have the patience. Somehow people are talking about plot and trainwrecks when they're so extremely shallow that they can't even see past designs and what is presented to them.

Doesn't look cool = boring, no action = slow pace, doesn't spoonfeed you the story = no plot. What?
Lol, but when there is a story that provides you with action, coolness, and a spoonfed story, i.e, SEED

People bash it endlessly.

LOL
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Old 2009-01-21, 10:02   Link #76
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That's because Fukuda was a blatant panderer and his direction was overtly shallow. His direction was a mess, just look at Destiny.

Tomino's direction is very mature and is more novel-like in terms of pacing and approach, having had three decades under his belt to get over the "wow kids with flashy poses, flashy recycled animations, and boobs" formula.
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Old 2009-01-21, 10:07   Link #77
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I watched the first 10...ish episodes of Turn-A and I found them rather slow in pace and lacking action so I didn't bother watching the rest.
Sigh. I've lost count at the amount of times people have said this.

Turn A Gundam shows that you don't need all action for a series to be a winner. Personally it's my favorite from the franchise for music, character (their development and interaction) and story.

Why can't people just give it a break, and not expect action action action. We get this from a lot of people when there's an episode of Gundam 00 with no action.
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Old 2009-01-21, 14:18   Link #78
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Recently watched Turn A Gundam and have to say that I love the series. Colorful cast of characters, great character development, and a rather unique take on the mobile suits. Makes SEED and Destiny extremely shallow and bad. Loran is a pretty good Gundam protagonist and riding the White Doll. Had to get use to the mecha designs as they are rather primitive, except for Turn A, Turn X, and the SUMO.
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Old 2009-01-21, 17:42   Link #79
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I have recently seen the whole series, too. And i like it. The character development, and the whole history. But i think the Ending was too quickly.

It's true that Turn A Gundam don't have many fight action, but there are not need it. I love the swich of Diana and Keheil. And in the beginig i dont think that Lily Borjano was going to be a clever and wise character in the end. Those are the small things that made the serie enjoyable.
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Old 2009-01-21, 19:35   Link #80
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The ending was pretty bright and optimistic, but it presents the characters going ahead for the future. Gym doesn't strike me as a true antagonist, as he was just bored and wanting to go to war on Earth.
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