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Old 2004-02-04, 03:22   Link #1
segnick
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Quite Funny Contradiction

Hi,
dunno whether this has been discussed before

in the 1st few episodes naruto, he learned kage bunshin from this scroll where it contained forbidden spells which he stole.

Ever wondered , since the spell is forbidden, how come Kakashi knew the spell? argument : maybe he used his sharingan and copied it when naruto used it.

but, how bout Ebisu ( in the episode where he chased naruto around in Konoha Village) or Kabuto ( when he tried to assasinate Sasuke but caught doing so by Kakashi?)

To me, forbidden spells are not to be used or known

care to discuss?
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Old 2004-02-04, 03:30   Link #2
whatever123
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i think they r forbidden to those below the level of jounin so the secret technique doesnt fall for the wrong hands (i.e mizuki) thats one theory

the other which is my theory is that they knew the techniques before it was forbidden
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Old 2004-02-04, 03:33   Link #3
chImp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatever123
i think they r forbidden to those below the level of jounin so the secret technique doesnt fall for the wrong hands (i.e mizuki) thats one theory

the other which is my theory is that they knew the techniques before it was forbidden
I think it was Nidaime who made them forbidden, and since Sandaime was a kid at that time I don't think Kakashi and the others would exist.
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Old 2004-02-04, 04:21   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chImp
I think it was Nidaime who made them forbidden, and since Sandaime was a kid at that time I don't think Kakashi and the others would exist.
really i must have been mistaken i thought that it was yondaimi who made the scroll forbidden since the word they used was "previous hokage" so i thought that they meant yondaimi i could be wrong
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Old 2004-02-04, 05:21   Link #5
OhJustSomeRandomGuy
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That's why the first episode is the worst.

There are SO many loose ends. Why are those techniques sealed? Why not teach them at least to the Chuunin? What happened to Mizuki? All thus stuff about Naruto having the fox sealed inside him is supposed to be secret but all comes out during that episode...so do his teammates know or not? Because they sure don't act like they know. Why isn't Naruto severely reprimanded for being such a retard? Instead they make him a Genin.

I would have made this thread myself, but I wasn't sure if anyone else thought the same. The only useful thing it shows is exactly how useless of a combat ninja Iruka is.
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Old 2004-02-04, 06:30   Link #6
degeros
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I think its forbidden more due to the fact that it is requires too much chakra for average ninjas to perform, which might put the user's body at risk. (Just think about the Lotus)
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Old 2004-02-04, 10:14   Link #7
mightyme
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no contradiction... none of the kids know that kyuubi is in naruto, that was flat out stated, all the adults do though...

and the seals are jounin level seals.. forbiden to those bellow jounin level... kabuto likely learned it from Oro, ebisu chasing naruto was anime only, we don't know if he knows it or not in the manga, Kakashi is a jounin and was an anbu.... so he probbaly knows most of the forbiden techniques
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Old 2004-02-04, 10:30   Link #8
Vicious
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This was asked at least twice before.

The Kage Bunshin no Jutsu is a jutsu forbidden to Genins and Chuunins. The Jounins have access to this forbidden scroll. Just see Ebisu, he knows how to use it.

Why is it forbidden? Well, it's an A-rank jutsu after all. It consumes a lot of Chakra, so it's dangerous for the Genins and Chuunins.
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Old 2004-02-04, 10:41   Link #9
Hunter
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The only persons who use the Kage bunshin in the manga are Naruto, Kakashi and the 3rd.

Nobody else.
Naruto learns it, the 3rd knew all the jutsu in the Leaf, Kakashi saw it with the Sharingan.

And nobody but the adults know about the Kyubi, it's a given.

Mizuki was probably executed. Or not.

edit : and btw no, the scroll is forgiven for everybody not just the genin/chuunin.
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Old 2004-02-04, 11:33   Link #10
OhJustSomeRandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
And nobody but the adults know about the Kyubi, it's a given.
So do they just conveniently ignore that stuff like, when Orochimaru picks him up and says, "So this is the 9 tails fox kid" and seals access to the Kyubi's chakra while he's in front of Sakura and Sasuke causing him to pass out?

Anyone who mentioned the fox being sealed in Naruto was supposed to be exiled from Konoha. Yet, everybody's talking about it in the first ep while they go look for him.

Also the part about Naruto passing the exam to become a genin after:

1) Failing to see through a disguise.

2) Stealing the forbidden scroll. (Wouldn't you have this put away somewhere, so like Konohamaru wouldn't pick it up?)

3) Learning techniques from the forbidden scroll.

4) Leaving the village with said scroll.

Doesn't make any sense at all. Granted...he like does save Iruka, but he put him in that situation in the first place. That still puts him at a negative for the whole escapade, though.

I still say the first episode is the one that makes the least sense. It just leaves SO many things open-ended.
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Old 2004-02-04, 11:39   Link #11
hobobaggins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
The only persons who use the Kage bunshin in the manga are Naruto, Kakashi and the 3rd.

Nobody else.
Naruto learns it, the 3rd knew all the jutsu in the Leaf, Kakashi saw it with the Sharingan.

And nobody but the adults know about the Kyubi, it's a given.

Mizuki was probably executed. Or not.

edit : and btw no, the scroll is forgiven for everybody not just the genin/chuunin.
forgiven for everyone? hehe... well...

none of the kids no about the fox: sasuke AND sakura shit their pants when they see the "real" naruto...

But i think the techniques are "forbidden" like the lotus/gates are "forbidden" ... it just says "no" to other people

and you think you would have the scroll locked up somewhere where people cant steal it (if naruto can, anyone can.)
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Old 2004-02-04, 13:00   Link #12
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy
So do they just conveniently ignore that stuff like, when Orochimaru picks him up and says, "So this is the 9 tails fox kid" and seals access to the Kyubi's chakra while he's in front of Sakura and Sasuke causing him to pass out?
So?
they probably don't even know what's the Kyubi is, they saw Naruto became Berserk or at least suddenly extremely strong but they dunno that there is an external factor to explain that.
Beside Oro was something like 10~15 meter highter, he would have to speak very loudly so that Sasuke and Sakura heard him.

Quote:
Anyone who mentioned the fox being sealed in Naruto was supposed to be exiled from Konoha. Yet, everybody's talking about it in the first ep while they go look for him.
But there wasn't any children around, only people who already know it and the situation was very unusual.

Quote:
Also the part about Naruto passing the exam to become a genin after:

1) Failing to see through a disguise.

2) Stealing the forbidden scroll. (Wouldn't you have this put away somewhere, so like Konohamaru wouldn't pick it up?)

3) Learning techniques from the forbidden scroll.

4) Leaving the village with said scroll.

Doesn't make any sense at all. Granted...he like does save Iruka, but he put him in that situation in the first place. That still puts him at a negative for the whole escapade, though.
You can't see through a bunshin expept if you have a particular habilities or a reason to think it's a false one.
For the other point you're right but Naruto was dumped by one of his professor, he couldn't guess that Mizuki was a traitor so actually it's even the responsibility of the Hokage in the end.

Quote:
I still say the first episode is the one that makes the least sense. It just leaves SO many things open-ended.
Well it's true but it can't be helped, it's the case for many story because in the very beginning, the autor don't know exactly his own universe, he creates it little by little.
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Old 2004-02-04, 13:05   Link #13
JOJOS'STAR
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I think its hard to say Bunshin or Kagebunshin.. Sadows or real clones .

Of cours the Ninjas knows about it but its not specified to us every time and since we cant tell by the drawing who knows if its kage or not if its not obvious for that particular character
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Old 2004-02-04, 13:11   Link #14
Blue*Dragon
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my theory is that the jutsu takes a lot of chakra. And the most kids will be in danger.
And lik you now Kage Bunshin is with real clones and no fake one. The fake easly disapeared but the real clones not that is my theory.
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Old 2004-02-04, 13:30   Link #15
pathyfinder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobobaggins
and you think you would have the scroll locked up somewhere where people cant steal it (if naruto can, anyone can.)
They scroll may of been where many people could of stolen it, but I have often thought that main reason people didn't TAKE it was because it was FORBIDDEN. The people for the most part do honor rules. Mizuki had Naruto take it to keep himself from LOOKING like he was even involved. Only when Iruku caught up to Mizuki, was the plan messed up.

The point with the scrolls was to prove that naruto someone came up with the power to pull off the Kage Bushin. (because he knew the seals and words from reading the scroll.) Plus he we all know that Naruto has a huge amount of emotion this allows they Kyuubi's chakra to leak out into Naruto body.

Iruku appeared to be mainly responsible in raising Naruto and knew Naruto better than anyone else, and new that Naruto knowing how to do the kage Bushin wouldn't be the end of the village (at this time). Iruka also saw that Naruto choose to do what was right with the forbidden scrolls (turn them over) after Naruto found out that Iruka was telling the truth and that Mizuki was the one lying.

The village acted very responsible in making Naruto a Ninja because his actions in the forest and they also made Kakashi his sensei. Who appears to be the strongest Ninja available at that time.

Naruto was probably told that if he wanted to become a ninja he just had to take those scrolls from Mizuki. Mizuki would of stolen the scrolls himself some other time if Naruto wouldn't of helped him that day.

All in all it was a very good test and nice little mission for Naruto to show his true loyalty and strengths.... that is that Naruto has a good heart. *ok, you can go barf now*

There really isn't a lot of plot "holes" in Naruto.

I think there was a LOT LOT more in those scrolls other than how to do the Kage bushin. (again remember there is a difference between Clones and real bodies) We may never know what ELSE was in them, but perhaps it could be as simple as just keeping them away from Itachi. If he saw anyone do the Kage Bushin then he could do it and he has already proven to be a open murderer. So if you have a jutsu that only three people can do and you can make sure those three don't use it around Itachi (if they ever run into him) then you can be sure Itachi won't see those Jutsus)

Just ask before you get a ton of them. Heck if I'm not right someone else will post!
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Old 2004-02-04, 14:24   Link #16
GreyArea
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I think the more important question here is: Why is Kage Bunshin on a scroll of sealing?
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Old 2004-02-04, 14:45   Link #17
TheGreatYakoshi
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Originally Posted by GreyArea
I think the more important question here is: Why is Kage Bunshin on a scroll of sealing?
Who'd think to look for it there, maybe? As far as a ninja from another village would be concerned, anyway. And if you're already a Konoha shinobi/kunoichi, then you know it's the "forbidden" scroll, and you don't touch it.

There seems to be an honor system in place a lot of the time. Mizuki was the only traitor we've really seen (besides Orochimaru and Kabuto--and Itachi, anyway). You don't hear much about Konoha criminals or a jail anywhere, so you could assume most of the people there are pretty law-abiding. And even if someone did try to steal it...well, it's in Sarutobi's house. Naruto got lucky, anyone else that would have tried something like that would have gotten obliterated.
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Old 2004-02-04, 14:50   Link #18
Kyuven
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scroll of SEALS
the hand gestures shinobi do when performing a jutsu are called "hand seals"
back in the episode preview for when naruto was learning Summon no Jutsu, it described what seals to use, how to focus chakra, and what else to do (blood in this case)
all the "Seal Scrolls" probably have the kanji for the hand symbols, like "Horse, Tiger, then stick your thumb up your ass"
the whole scroll was probably details about different bunshins
btw "Bunshins" are insubstantial and "shadowy" whereas Kage Bunshins are solid
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Old 2004-02-04, 14:52   Link #19
pathyfinder
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Originally Posted by Kyuven
Seal Scrolls" probably have the kanji for the hand symbols, like "Horse, Tiger, then stick your thumb up your ass"
obviously Oro has already read this scroll
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Old 2004-02-04, 15:09   Link #20
TheGreatYakoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuven
scroll of SEALS
God, how could I not have caught that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pathyfinder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuven
"Seal Scrolls" probably have the kanji for the hand symbols, like "Horse, Tiger, then stick your thumb up your ass"
obviously Oro has already read this scroll
You worry me sometimes, Pathy-chan...

Last edited by TheGreatYakoshi; 2004-02-04 at 15:38.
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