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Old 2007-09-28, 18:58   Link #261
bluelight41
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Hi all,

This is the third manga/anime that I've ever read/watched, along with Berserk and Ippo. For the record, I believe that this anime is very much like Berserk. Anyways, I'm glad to have found a place to discuss this anime with people.

I just finished reading the majority of this thread, and it is very obvious to me that some posters seem to be on a mission to discredit the theory that Raki may be a strong warrior in the future at all costs, lol. While I am not the biggest fan of Raki as well, I wonder some posters are unwillingly to even consider the fact that Raki may be strong?

An arguement that I see many posters write about around here is that Raki is only human, and that even if he becomes the strongest human in the world, he would be lucky to hold his own 1v1 vs a normal Yoma while being complete fodder to AO. In short, the strongest human would probably not be able to hold a candle to the weakest Claymore. As a poster pointed out before ( I don't remember who ), even though the fastest human may be able to run a 4 second mile, the weakest Claymore could probably do that in 30 seconds. However, aren't we using a bit too much logic here? We have to remember that we are discussing the anime genre here, in which all boundaries of logic are defied ( think Guts in Berserk ) Guts was just a very strong human being, who somehow pushed himself beyond human limits in order to be strong enough to fight the demons and monsters of the Berserk world. Granted, Guts received some help in form of the Berserker armor, but there is no reason to think that Raki could not receive some similar form of help. To be honest, I would not be surprised to see something like this happen. After all, from what we have seen so far, Claymore is just as illogical and farfetched of a manga as Berserk.

Furthermore, the simple fact is that in a well written script, nothing happens without a reason or purpose. We saw in the manga that Raki was taken under the instruction of that one male AO whose name I have forgotten, lol. I believe that if the author really intended for Raki to be completely worthless in combat, then there would be no point in showing that Raki was taking lessons from this man. Why would the author have Raki train 7 years under one of most powerful beings in this world, only to end up being complete crap? It makes no sense at all; the author would just be wasting his time drawing the parts of the manga that showed Raki learning from the guy then. To add to all of this, I would consider Raki the second most important character to this series. Why develop this character so much if he is only going to end up being crap?

It just does not make any sense to me for the author to spend so much time developing the character Raki, only to have him be completely worthless. In this anime, the most important thing is combat/figthing power. Why would the second leading character not have any? I do believe big things are in store for Raki, and that while he may not turn out to be as strong as the #1 Claymore, he certainly wouldn't be useless either. My guess is that he'll end up being strong enough to be able to support Clare and the rest of the resistance legitimate combat support. Sorry this post was so long lol. I would love to hear responses and comments.

Last edited by bluelight41; 2007-09-28 at 21:57.
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Old 2007-09-28, 23:21   Link #262
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Perhaps big things Raki in manga development is not his fighting ability but his compassion, empathy, moral and humanity strength. He might not able to kill, but perhaps he can be the bridge between life forms to unite against the more sinister enemy, the Organization. Instead of being a warrior, he will be something else, like Gandhi or some inspirational figure to turn the Awakened Ones and Claymore operators to destroy the root of their problem.

That's who I see the progression of his character will go in the manga. But hey, just my personal opinion.
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Old 2007-09-29, 01:24   Link #263
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by bluelight41 View Post
Hi all,

This is the third manga/anime that I've ever read/watched, along with Berserk and Ippo. For the record, I believe that this anime is very much like Berserk. Anyways, I'm glad to have found a place to discuss this anime with people.

I just finished reading the majority of this thread, and it is very obvious to me that some posters seem to be on a mission to discredit the theory that Raki may be a strong warrior in the future at all costs, lol. While I am not the biggest fan of Raki as well, I wonder some posters are unwillingly to even consider the fact that Raki may be strong?

An arguement that I see many posters write about around here is that Raki is only human, and that even if he becomes the strongest human in the world, he would be lucky to hold his own 1v1 vs a normal Yoma while being complete fodder to AO. In short, the strongest human would probably not be able to hold a candle to the weakest Claymore. As a poster pointed out before ( I don't remember who ), even though the fastest human may be able to run a 4 second mile, the weakest Claymore could probably do that in 30 seconds. However, aren't we using a bit too much logic here? We have to remember that we are discussing the anime genre here, in which all boundaries of logic are defied ( think Guts in Berserk ) Guts was just a very strong human being, who somehow pushed himself beyond human limits in order to be strong enough to fight the demons and monsters of the Berserk world. Granted, Guts received some help in form of the Berserker armor, but there is no reason to think that Raki could not receive some similar form of help. To be honest, I would not be surprised to see something like this happen. After all, from what we have seen so far, Claymore is just as illogical and farfetched of a manga as Berserk.
The problem isn't realism, it's consistency. The Claymoreverse just doesn't work like the Berserkverse, or the One Pieceverse. In Claymore, full humans are sheep for the slaughter. At best, they may try to help, but they won't be able to do much damage.

Quote:
Furthermore, the simple fact is that in a well written script, nothing happens without a reason or purpose. We saw in the manga that Raki was taken under the instruction of that one male AO whose name I have forgotten, lol. I believe that if the author really intended for Raki to be completely worthless in combat, then there would be no point in showing that Raki was taking lessons from this man. Why would the author have Raki train 7 years under one of most powerful beings in this world, only to end up being complete crap? It makes no sense at all; the author would just be wasting his time drawing the parts of the manga that showed Raki learning from the guy then.
To show the futility of human spirit if it's not backed up by human intelligence?


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To add to all of this, I would consider Raki the second most important character to this series. Why develop this character so much if he is only going to end up being crap?
Screen time, importance, and combat power are three different things. One doesn't necessarily imply the others.

So far, Raki had screen time, and some importance as a plot device - he's useful as a motivation for Clare to do her rebellious act, and for the exposition.

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It just does not make any sense to me for the author to spend so much time developing the character Raki, only to have him be completely worthless.
As I said, being weak isn't the same as being worthless.

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In this anime, the most important thing is combat/figthing power.
You've watched the wrong animes.

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Why would the second leading character not have any?
To quote Caro Lu Lushe, "because he's a boy". He should be glad he didn't get eaten.
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Old 2007-09-29, 02:08   Link #264
Jman502005
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If the writers in the anime really did try to make him into a moral compass, Gandhi, or whatever, how can one think that a creature who lives by eating your friends and families guts can fall into the category of compassion?

You know, empathy is great, when it actually falls on something that deserves it, not when it's misplace time and again by the same person who doesn't know any better, or for that fact, anyone who he's trying to give it to, considering he truly doesn't know anything about them or is just blind to the truth.
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Old 2007-09-29, 02:32   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Jman502005 View Post
If the writers in the anime really did try to make him into a moral compass, Gandhi, or whatever, how can one think that a creature who lives by eating your friends and families guts can fall into the category of compassion?

You know, empathy is great, when it actually falls on something that deserves it, not when it's misplace time and again by the same person who doesn't know any better, or for that fact, anyone who he's trying to give it to, considering he truly doesn't know anything about them or is just blind to the truth.
I speaking of manga character, not anime.
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Old 2007-09-29, 02:54   Link #266
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Raki has his importance, he's the one who first prevented Clare going awakening, and he has played some important role in the following chapters. I don't blame him for being emo at first, since he just lost all his family and his dearest brother turns out a demon. But he's development has potential.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
To show the futility of human spirit if it's not backed up by human intelligence?
huh? when does human intelligence have anything to do here? Raki is weak, but so far he doesn't look stupid... or maybe thinking "we humans can never beat demons, so we should never try" is the "intelligent way"? I guess those village peasants are representatives of human intelligence, then I can say hell with human intelligence.

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The problem isn't realism, it's consistency. The Claymoreverse just doesn't work like the Berserkverse, or the One Pieceverse. In Claymore, full humans are sheep for the slaughter. At best, they may try to help, but they won't be able to do much damage.
well, I won't be too sure here, if you follow the latest manga development, the main protagonist claymores have trained themselves to fight without releasing even one bit of demon power. Previously it's mentioned that when stripped of their demon power, they become very weak. So if a claymore can fight even an AO so well without releasing one bit of demon power, I won't be surprised that a human without demon power may fight against demons, or even may hold his own against an AB.

Besides Claymore has its habit of breaking previous settings when introducing some new concepts, and now this "fight with zero demon power release" looks to be a new concept that can break a lot of established settings in the manga series.
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Old 2007-09-29, 03:06   Link #267
Anh_Minh
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Raki has his importance, he's the one who first prevented Clare going awakening, and he has played some important role in the following chapters. I don't blame him for being emo at first, since he just lost all his family and his dearest brother turns out a demon. But he's development has potential.


huh? when does human intelligence have anything to do here? Raki is weak, but so far he doesn't look stupid... or maybe thinking "we humans can never beat demons, so we should never try" is the "intelligent way"? I guess those village peasants are representatives of human intelligence, then I can say hell with human intelligence.
I'm sure there are ways for humans to fight youmas and AB. Just waving a sword around isn't one of them.

Human intelligence comes into play to realize that sad truth, and finding how to really help, instead of just being a sword slinging hindrance. (As opposed to a whining, unarmed hindrance.)


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well, I won't be too sure here, if you follow the latest manga development, the main protagonist claymores have trained themselves to fight without releasing even one bit of demon power. Previously it's mentioned that when stripped of their demon power, they become very weak. So if a claymore can fight even an AO so well without releasing one bit of demon power, I won't be surprised that a human without demon power may fight against demons, or even may hold his own against an AB.

Besides Claymore has its habit of breaking previous settings when introducing some new concepts, and now this "fight with zero demon power release" looks to be a new concept that can break a lot of established settings in the manga series.
Even without releasing youki, they're still Claymores - stronger, faster, and tougher than humans have any right to be.

And fighting without release is an old concept. Theresa did it, Raphaela did it, and now they're doing it.
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Old 2007-09-29, 04:08   Link #268
hipeach
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And fighting without release is an old concept. Theresa did it, Raphaela did it, and now they're doing it.
well not actively releasing your demon power is different from not using one bit of it at all. the manga has made it quite clear that the protagonists have discovered and mastered some new... martial arts or whatever that doesn't use any demon power at all. It has basically changed the fundamentals of high-speed sword since that attack was completely dependent of demon power but now it has the same effect without even utilizing any demon power at all.

The fundamental difference here is that, for the past it's fighting without actively releasing more demon power, but now it's fighting with utilizing completely nil demon power at all.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Even without releasing youki, they're still Claymores - stronger, faster, and tougher than humans have any right to be.
but the superior strength and speed mainly came from the demon power inside them, and now they basically uses none of it at all.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm sure there are ways for humans to fight youmas and AB. Just waving a sword around isn't one of them.

Human intelligence comes into play to realize that sad truth, and finding how to really help, instead of just being a sword slinging hindrance. (As opposed to a whining, unarmed hindrance.)
he's a kid from a small village, not some great tactician, and those supposedly great warriors of the Church didn't do much better. So far he looks intelligent enough in the series. And I'm still not so sure a human just can't master swordsmanship or martial arts in Claymore well enough to beat demons, the possibility is still open as far as I can see.
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Old 2007-09-29, 04:57   Link #269
Anh_Minh
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well not actively releasing your demon power is different from not using one bit of it at all.
No, it's not. They're maybe a bit more zealous in not releasing than Theresa (but not than Raphaela) and, more importantly, they spent years not releasing, so as to erase all remaining traces of youki, but that's all.

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the manga has made it quite clear that the protagonists have discovered and mastered some new... martial arts or whatever that doesn't use any demon power at all. It has basically changed the fundamentals of high-speed sword since that attack was completely dependent of demon power but now it has the same effect without even utilizing any demon power at all.
No. What they did is train themselves to use their bodies to their physical limits. Whereas before, they used youki for a temporary boost, like, say, an adrenaline surge, in addition to their hybrid bodies, they now use only their bodies.

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The fundamental difference here is that, for the past it's fighting without actively releasing more demon power, but now it's fighting with utilizing completely nil demon power at all.
There is no difference. The only difference is the reasons they don't use their youki. Theresa didn't use it because she didn't need it, Raphaela because of her psychological scars, and the Lucky 7 because they need the stealth.

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but the superior strength and speed mainly came from the demon power inside them, and now they basically uses none of it at all.
No, even without using the youki, they remain half-youma. Their physiology is totally different, and that's what gives them strength. Just look at Miata or even Clarice on pills. They accomplish physical feats they should not be able to, if they were human.


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he's a kid from a small village, not some great tactician, and those supposedly great warriors of the Church didn't do much better.
Precisely. Those "great warriors of the Church" are about as strong as he can hope to become. And they were next to useless.

If he wants to be useful, he'll have to find some other way.
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Old 2007-09-29, 07:08   Link #270
Yorae_paladin1
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, it's not. They're maybe a bit more zealous in not releasing than Theresa (but not than Raphaela) and, more importantly, they spent years not releasing, so as to erase all remaining traces of youki, but that's all.


No. What they did is train themselves to use their bodies to their physical limits. Whereas before, they used youki for a temporary boost, like, say, an adrenaline surge, in addition to their hybrid bodies, they now use only their bodies.


There is no difference. The only difference is the reasons they don't use their youki. Theresa didn't use it because she didn't need it, Raphaela because of her psychological scars, and the Lucky 7 because they need the stealth.


No, even without using the youki, they remain half-youma. Their physiology is totally different, and that's what gives them strength. Just look at Miata or even Clarice on pills. They accomplish physical feats they should not be able to, if they were human.



Precisely. Those "great warriors of the Church" are about as strong as he can hope to become. And they were next to useless.

If he wants to be useful, he'll have to find some other way.
Ther is no other for him to be useful one of the flaws of his series no strong humans.
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Old 2007-09-29, 09:05   Link #271
hipeach
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No, it's not. They're maybe a bit more zealous in not releasing than Theresa (but not than Raphaela) and, more importantly, they spent years not releasing, so as to erase all remaining traces of youki, but that's all.

No. What they did is train themselves to use their bodies to their physical limits. Whereas before, they used youki for a temporary boost, like, say, an adrenaline surge, in addition to their hybrid bodies, they now use only their bodies.

There is no difference. The only difference is the reasons they don't use their youki. Theresa didn't use it because she didn't need it, Raphaela because of her psychological scars, and the Lucky 7 because they need the stealth.

No, even without using the youki, they remain half-youma. Their physiology is totally different, and that's what gives them strength. Just look at Miata or even Clarice on pills. They accomplish physical feats they should not be able to, if they were human.
Maybe you should read the manga more carefully, the manga explicitly states that those protagonists are using some completely new techniques, which means no claymore has used it before.

Raphaela can conceal her demon power presence very well, but when she fights, her demon power can still be felt. There IS a BIG difference between concealing your demon power presence when you are not fighting, and no demon power at all when you are pulling off high-speed sword.

No active release doesn't mean no demon power, it's just that their demon power are at a low daily level, not actively increased to a high combat level. But for the protagonists now, even a powerful AO cannot detect ANY demon power when they attack her! It means they are not using any demon power at all.

Even with pills, they only completely conceal their demon power when they are not fighting. When they try to perform those super human feats, their demon power are still felt, means they still reach some low demon power level. The no demon power at all stuff is a completely new concept, and that's what the manga has confirmed.


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Precisely. Those "great warriors of the Church" are about as strong as he can hope to become. And they were next to useless.

If he wants to be useful, he'll have to find some other way.
There's absolutely no rules at all in the manga saying that those "great warrors of the Church" are at the upper limit of human potential. Not to mention there are many previous rules-breaking events happened in the manga anyway. And getting lived together and trained by powerful AOs may very well be this "other way", I'm sure those Church Knights lack this kind of experience

Like I said, as far as I can see, the possibility of a human mastering swordsmanship or martial arts in Claymore well enough to beat demons is still open, and that won't even break any consistency in Claymore universe (at least no more than past events that have occurred already).
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Old 2007-09-29, 09:05   Link #272
bluelight41
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The problem isn't realism, it's consistency. The Claymoreverse just doesn't work like the Berserkverse, or the One Pieceverse. In Claymore, full humans are sheep for the slaughter. At best, they may try to help, but they won't be able to do much damage.
If we were to talk about consistency, Berserk would be an extremely inconsistent manga as well.

You state that in Claymore full humans are sheep for the slaughter. I've never watched Onepice, but how is this any different from the "Berkserkverse?" The only human in that I can think of in Berserk that wouldn't get slaughtered by the Berserk monsters is Guts. Everyone else has pretty much no chance. Remember in the earlier/middle parts of the manga when the eclipse occured? The band of the hawk, the most powerful army of the time, could do nothing except get slaughtered by the demons. Even Guts, the best human warrior at the time, was helpless to do anything about it and had to be rescued. In that part of Berserk, was it not painfully obvious that humans had no chance against the demons? Nevertheless, Guts exceeded what we would call "human limits" later on, and was able to fight toe to toe with some of the stronger demons of that anime.

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To show the futility of human spirit if it's not backed up by human intelligence?
.
What? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Raki has no intelligence? I thought that Easley or whatever his name was commented that Raki was making good progress in his training? Doesn't that show combat intelligence, or at the very least, aptitude in using the sword?

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Screen time, importance, and combat power are three different things. One doesn't necessarily imply the others.

So far, Raki had screen time, and some importance as a plot device - he's useful as a motivation for Clare to do her rebellious act, and for the exposition.


As I said, being weak isn't the same as being worthless.
I agree with this. But do you really believe that the author wants Raki to remain weak throughout the entire manga? I know that you commented that not being strong in combat does not imply worthlessness. However, haven't we heard from Raki time and time again that all he wants to do is to stay with Clare and protect her? If he does not eventually get strong enough to protect Clare, then in his own eyes he will be weak, and thus worthless.

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You've watched the wrong animes.
Again, what are you talking about?

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To quote Caro Lu Lushe, "because he's a boy". He should be glad he didn't get eaten.
So because he's a boy, he's not allowed to get stronger in combat? Because he's a boy, he should just sit there and be glad that he isn't dead?

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I'm sure there are ways for humans to fight youmas and AB. Just waving a sword around isn't one of them.

Human intelligence comes into play to realize that sad truth, and finding how to really help, instead of just being a sword slinging hindrance. (As opposed to a whining, unarmed hindrance.)
I can't think of any ways for a human to contribute to the fight without actually being able to perform in combat short of dropping a nuke on the AOs. Could you give me some examples of how they would contribute without fighting? Honestly, I don't believe that there is anything a human can do against a bunch of monsters that just want to gain control of the world other than fight against it physically.

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[Precisely. Those "great warriors of the Church" are about as strong as he can hope to become. And they were next to useless.]
Not sure who said this quote, as I found in a post just below mine. But anyways, like Hipeach stated, why are we assuming that these warriors of the Church are really that strong? There is nothing in the manga that states that these warriors are the strongest human warriors of their day. Furthermore, even if we assume for arguement's sake that these two warriors are the strongest human warriors who have reached the human limit of combat profiency, why would we assume that Raki would not be able to surpass them? We have seen many times that new limits can be set in Claymore. One of the most notable examples may be Clare's ability to push her body beyond the Yoma power limit of 80%, and being able to recover from that. In the beginning of the manga, it was stated that once someone has gone over the Yoma power limit, there would be no way to keep one from awakening. Yet, I can think of two times where Clare has recovered after going over the limit. If Clare can set new limits, then why would Raki not be able to? I think I remember reading that the reason why the Claymore and AOs are so much stronger than normal Yoma's is because they have a human mind that can control the power much better than a mindles Yoma can. Clearly, the human mind is very powerful, and should not be underestimated.

Last edited by bluelight41; 2007-09-29 at 09:24.
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Old 2007-09-29, 10:28   Link #273
hipeach
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I can't think of any ways for a human to contribute to the fight without actually being able to perform in combat short of dropping a nuke on the AOs.
well, maybe Raki can use his human intelligence to solve e=mc^2 and invent the first atomic bomb in Claymore universe and eradicate everything. I guess that's also a possibility
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Old 2007-09-29, 13:05   Link #274
Anh_Minh
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Maybe you should read the manga more carefully, the manga explicitly states that those protagonists are using some completely new techniques, which means no claymore has used it before.
No, they use new versions of old techniques. And the point wasn't that they'd discovered some new mental power stemming from not using their youki. They just learnt how to use their enhanced bodies. Like learning new karate moves or something.


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Raphaela can conceal her demon power presence very well, but when she fights, her demon power can still be felt. There IS a BIG difference between concealing your demon power presence when you are not fighting, and no demon power at all when you are pulling off high-speed sword.
No, Raphaela really isn't using her youki, under no circumstances. That's her gimmick. The Lucky 7 copied it. They didn't do anything new. (Except adapt other techniques, like Jean's drill or Flora's windcutter, to their youki-deprived situation.)

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No active release doesn't mean no demon power, it's just that their demon power are at a low daily level, not actively increased to a high combat level. But for the protagonists now, even a powerful AO cannot detect ANY demon power when they attack her! It means they are not using any demon power at all.
It means more than that. It's mean they've been suppressing their power for a long time... like Raphaela.

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Even with pills, they only completely conceal their demon power when they are not fighting. When they try to perform those super human feats, their demon power are still felt, means they still reach some low demon power level. The no demon power at all stuff is a completely new concept, and that's what the manga has confirmed.
No. On the pill, they can't access their youki, period. All they have are their physically enhanced bodies.



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There's absolutely no rules at all in the manga saying that those "great warrors of the Church" are at the upper limit of human potential. Not to mention there are many previous rules-breaking events happened in the manga anyway. And getting lived together and trained by powerful AOs may very well be this "other way", I'm sure those Church Knights lack this kind of experience

Like I said, as far as I can see, the possibility of a human mastering swordsmanship or martial arts in Claymore well enough to beat demons is still open, and that won't even break any consistency in Claymore universe (at least no more than past events that have occurred already).
I know that in most settings, guards are just mooks waiting, at best, to be shown up by the hero, at worst, to be slaughtered by him. But let's insert a bit of realism here. Not where Claymores are concerned, of course, but within humanity.

The Church warriors are professional soldiers of a rich organisation. While it is possible that some other army, somewhere, is superior to them thanks to better doctrines and/or equipment, an individual swordsman is never going to be much better than the church's swordsmen. He may become a bit better, but not enough to matter.

For example, take professional athletes. People able to run 100m in less than, say, 11 seconds. If you train, maybe you'll be able to run faster than them. Maybe you'll be able to beat the world record. But at best, you'll only shave off a few hundredth of seconds. You will not run 100 in less than 2 seconds. Because humans can't do that.

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Originally Posted by bluelight41 View Post
If we were to talk about consistency, Berserk would be an extremely inconsistent manga as well.

You state that in Claymore full humans are sheep for the slaughter. I've never watched Onepice, but how is this any different from the "Berkserkverse?" The only human in that I can think of in Berserk that wouldn't get slaughtered by the Berserk monsters is Guts. Everyone else has pretty much no chance. Remember in the earlier/middle parts of the manga when the eclipse occured? The band of the hawk, the most powerful army of the time, could do nothing except get slaughtered by the demons. Even Guts, the best human warrior at the time, was helpless to do anything about it and had to be rescued. In that part of Berserk, was it not painfully obvious that humans had no chance against the demons? Nevertheless, Guts exceeded what we would call "human limits" later on, and was able to fight toe to toe with some of the stronger demons of that anime.
OK, I'll admit, I spoke out of turn. I didn't read Berserk, and I don't remember much of the handful of episodes I watched.

My point was, in Claymore, full humans don't possess Claymore-level physical abilities. (Or Claymores wouldn't exist in the first place.)


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What? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Raki has no intelligence? I thought that Easley or whatever his name was commented that Raki was making good progress in his training? Doesn't that show combat intelligence, or at the very least, aptitude in using the sword?
I'm saying that if he was intelligent, he'd try something that has a chance of working, or lower his objectives. But protecting Clare with just a sword is ludicrous.


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I agree with this. But do you really believe that the author wants Raki to remain weak throughout the entire manga? I know that you commented that not being strong in combat does not imply worthlessness. However, haven't we heard from Raki time and time again that all he wants to do is to stay with Clare and protect her? If he does not eventually get strong enough to protect Clare, then in his own eyes he will be weak, and thus worthless.
His feelings, his problem.

The poor guy's got damsel in distress written all over him. Just as it's some people's lot in life to walk around saying "There are many guards in the castle", it's his to be rescued from youmas. At best, he'll learn to stay out from underfoot, and be Clare's emotional support and/or boytoy.

Or maybe he'll help them by being bait, or being the one to talk to the humans. But slaughtering ABs? Not going to happen. (Unless he's claymorized or something, I suppose. But then, there's his awakening to deal with...)


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Again, what are you talking about?
Sorry, I misread "In this anime, the most important thing is combat power" as "In anime, the most important thing is combat power".

Anyway, no it's not. Or Riful would be a lot more important than all the Fab Four put together.


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So because he's a boy, he's not allowed to get stronger in combat? Because he's a boy, he should just sit there and be glad that he isn't dead?
It wasn't a serious answer.

And whatever he wants to do is his problem, but the story hasn't been about "Raki the youma slayer", and it doesn't look like it's ever going to be. Them's the breaks.


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I can't think of any ways for a human to contribute to the fight without actually being able to perform in combat short of dropping a nuke on the AOs. Could you give me some examples of how they would contribute without fighting? Honestly, I don't believe that there is anything a human can do against a bunch of monsters that just want to gain control of the world other than fight against it physically.
Well, if they must contribute to the fight... (what's wrong with just supporting the Claymores in a non-combatant capacity, anyway?) the sword is the wrong weapon for it. It's too light, and youmas - especially AB - are too tough. He should either get something heavier, like a big axe (or a polearm?) or use range weapons. Heavy crossbow or longbow, for preference. (Though then, he'd run the risk of shooting the Claymore he wants to help...)

Also... Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit, and he plans to recruit people, but somehow, I doubt it. Fighting youmas isn't a one-man job. I don't think he realizes that.


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Not sure who said this quote, as I found in a post just below mine. But anyways, like Hipeach stated, why are we assuming that these warriors of the Church are really that strong? There is nothing in the manga that states that these warriors are the strongest human warriors of their day. Furthermore, even if we assume for arguement's sake that these two warriors are the strongest human warriors who have reached the human limit of combat profiency, why would we assume that Raki would not be able to surpass them? We have seen many times that new limits can be set in Claymore. One of the most notable examples may be Clare's ability to push her body beyond the Yoma power limit of 80%, and being able to recover from that. In the beginning of the manga, it was stated that once someone has gone over the Yoma power limit, there would be no way to keep one from awakening. Yet, I can think of two times where Clare has recovered after going over the limit. If Clare can set new limits, then why would Raki not be able to? I think I remember reading that the reason why the Claymore and AOs are so much stronger than normal Yoma's is because they have a human mind that can control the power much better than a mindles Yoma can. Clearly, the human mind is very powerful, and should not be underestimated.
But Raki's got no youma power to work with. Or push us into suspending our disbelief at what he can do.
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Old 2007-09-29, 13:48   Link #275
bluelight41
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
My point was, in Claymore, full humans don't possess Claymore-level physical abilities. (Or Claymores wouldn't exist in the first place.)
You are correct in saying that in Claymore, full humans don't possess Claymore-level physical abilities. I am not arguing with you on that point. Nothing in the manga so far has shown that any human could even touch the weakest Claymore. I'm simply suggesting that given the way this manga/genre of manga is written, it is certainly not out of the question for Raki to acquire this ability somehow, whether through hybridization or some other plot device.


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I'm saying that if he was intelligent, he'd try something that has a chance of working, or lower his objectives. But protecting Clare with just a sword is ludicrous.

Or maybe he'll help them by being bait, or being the one to talk to the humans. But slaughtering ABs? Not going to happen. (Unless he's claymorized or something, I suppose. But then, there's his awakening to deal with...)
The thing is, I really don't think there is anything that he can do to help Clare, short of being able to pick up a weapon and fight side by side with her. Why would he lower his objectives? I know you said that he can them by being bait, or being the one to talk to the humans, but those ideas, particularly the one about being the ones to talk to humans, really don't make much sense to me. Why would the Claymores care about communicating with humans? They've never cared what the humans have thought of them up to this point in time, and it is doubtful that they ever will. Furthermore, why would Claymores want to talk to humans? To enlist their help? Not likely, since the humans we've seen in the manga so far can do absolutely nothing to AOs.

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Sorry, I misread "In this anime, the most important thing is combat power" as "In anime, the most important thing is combat power".

Anyway, no it's not. Or Riful would be a lot more important than all the Fab Four put together.
Maybe I confused you with that statement. I didn't say that "the person that holds the most combat power is the most important figure in this series." I said that combat power, as well as the means and methods in which the character go aboutd acquiring that power, is what I believe to be the most important thing in this anime. Although you could make a good case for human compassion and all that other stuff pretty easily as well.

If combat power/abilities was not important, I don't think we would not see so much of this series devoted to the advancement of character combat powers. Why bother to have all these special moves...windcutter, Yoma sensing, quick blade, etc and the mechanics of these moves explained so well if it wasn't a central issue to this series? So much of this series is devoted to the "leveling up" of key characters in order for them to be able to fight against stronger foes that keep appearing.

Besides, what would be more important than combat power in the Claymore world? Diplomacy? Intelligence? None of that stuff really means anything without combat power to back it up. For example, we know that Mirai is a very intelligent leader, capable of making detailed war strategies. However, even the most intricate plan means absolutely nothing if her and her allies are unable to execute the plan.

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Well, if they must contribute to the fight... (what's wrong with just supporting the Claymores in a non-combatant capacity, anyway?) the sword is the wrong weapon for it. It's too light, and youmas - especially AB - are too tough. He should either get something heavier, like a big axe (or a polearm?) or use range weapons. Heavy crossbow or longbow, for preference. (Though then, he'd run the risk of shooting the Claymore he wants to help...)
The only reason why I feel that he must contribute to the fight is that there is simply nothing else he can contribute. Sure, he can contribute emotionally to Clare. But I mean, is he supposed to stay around Clare his whole life, waiting for her to use too much power and surpass the limit of no return, then bring her back with hugs and tears?

Also, I wasn't intending to argue with you about his weapon of choice. I don't care what he uses, as long as it is effective. I was just saying that I don't believe that there is anything he can contribute other than learning to fight.

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Also... Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit, and he plans to recruit people, but somehow, I doubt it. Fighting youmas isn't a one-man job. I don't think he realizes that.
While I don't believe that he will recruit more people, I do believe that you are not giving him enough credit. I don't think there is a ceiling to his potential, other than what the author decides to give him. Of course, this could mean that he could always be weak in combat. Or it could mean that he could be strong. I just have a lot of trouble believing that Raki, the lead male and second most important character in this series, will never be able to accomplish his only goal in life, and that is to be strong in order to protect Clare.

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But Raki's got no youma power to work with. Or push us into suspending our disbelief at what he can do.
You are right. Up to this point the author has really not given us much material to work with to show that Raki will definately be strong in the future. However, he has shown extreme bravery and heart/will of mind when Clare is in danger. I really do believe that all these characteristics are put into the series for a reason. If Raki was destined to stay weak, why write him as having bravery/strong will? Why have him take lessons from a master swordsman? If he was only intended to be the damsel of distress, then why give him all these good qualities and opportunities to become strong?

Also, while it is true that he has no Yoma power to work with, the author could easily come up with some sort of plot device that makes him combat ability explode. I know you didn't read Berserk, but in Berserk, the author gave the main character a form of armor that pretty much multiplied his abilities and gave him a way to fight on an equal level with the monsters in that series. While I know that this series is not Berserk, I just wanted to show an example of how a plot device could easily be come up with to explain Raki becoming strong, if he does someday.
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Old 2007-09-29, 14:02   Link #276
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by bluelight41 View Post
The thing is, I really don't think there is anything that he can do to help Clare, short of being able to pick up a weapon and fight side by side with her. Why would he lower his objectives? I know you said that he can them by being bait, or being the one to talk to the humans, but those ideas, particularly the one about being the ones to talk to humans, really don't make much sense to me. Why would the Claymores care about communicating with humans? They've never cared what the humans have thought of them up to this point in time, and it is doubtful that they ever will. Furthermore, why would Claymores want to talk to humans? To enlist their help? Not likely, since the humans we've seen in the manga so far can do absolutely nothing to AOs.
To collect rumors and the like. Maybe supplies, too. Raki has the advantage of not having silver eyes. He could go into town relatively unnoticed, and they wouldn't need to take pills which would rob them of their youki sense.


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Maybe I confused you with that statement. I didn't say that "the person that holds the most combat power is the most important figure in this series." I said that combat power, as well as the means and methods in which the character go aboutd acquiring that power, is what I believe to be the most important thing in this anime. Although you could make a good case for human compassion and all that other stuff pretty easily as well.

If combat power/abilities was not important, I don't think we would not see so much of this series devoted to the advancement of character combat powers. Why bother to have all these special moves...windcutter, Yoma sensing, quick blade, etc and the mechanics of these moves explained so well if it wasn't a central issue to this series?
Because it's cool. It's like the skintight outfits. There's no real reasons for it, but it looks nice.

Well, actually, there are a few plot point tied into the fighting techniques, but it doesn't mean that every important character has to be a fighter.

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The only reason why I feel that he must contribute to the fight is that there is simply nothing else he can contribute. Sure, he can contribute emotionally to Clare. But I mean, is he supposed to stay around Clare his whole life, waiting for her to use too much power and surpass the limit of no return, then bring her back with hugs and tears?
So he's a dead weight. What else is new?

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I know you didn't read Berserk, but in Berserk, the author gave the main character a form of armor that pretty much multiplied his abilities and gave him a way to fight on an equal level with the monsters in that series. While I know that this series is not Berserk, I just wanted to show an example of how a plot device could easily be come up with to explain Raki becoming strong, if he does someday.
The sudden introduction of a magic artifact, at this point in the story, would probably be unwelcome. As for hybridization... it comes with its own problem, to wit, the Awakening.
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Old 2007-09-29, 15:45   Link #277
Matrim
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I really do believe that all these characteristics are put into the series for a reason. If Raki was destined to stay weak, why write him as having bravery/strong will?
In order to show how bravery, moral purity and all that jazz is worthless in a battle if one doesn't have the necessary combat skill?

And would you stop with the Berserk references? I have only watched the first several episodes of it and it didn't have much battle realism from the start, I suppose Guts becomes much, much stronger later on but he was slicing people in half from very early on. One was left with the feeling that this guy can do virtually anything, if he tries hard enough, does that remind you of Raki in any way? Yes, Raki can be given a magic artifact or humans might suddenly become able to match some weak Youma or even AB but this would be one very illogical, inconsistent and forced twist. The only form of magic/supernatural we have seen in Claymore are the Youma and the Claymores, so logically Raki should either become a Claymore or remain a weakling.

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But I mean, is he supposed to stay around Clare his whole life, waiting for her to use too much power and surpass the limit of no return, then bring her back with hugs and tears?
I don't know what he is supposed to do but what you have described would be way more beneficial for the anti-Youma cause than Raki training swordfighting. Since when the hero's sidekick is obliged to be a decent fighter, too? Or even try to become one. I am not fond of Raki at all but I'd much rather have the current Raki who cannot fight to save his life (pun intended) tran one who suddenly became strong through some random plot device power up.

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We have to remember that we are discussing the anime genre here, in which all boundaries of logic are defied
Anime is not a genre and you are making a sweeping generalization which is quite wrong (though often very true for certain types of anime).
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Old 2007-09-29, 15:50   Link #278
Yorae_paladin1
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Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
In order to show how bravery, moral purity and all that jazz is worthless in a battle if one doesn't have the necessary combat skill?

And would you stop with the Berserk references? I have only watched the first several episodes of it and it didn't have much battle realism from the start, I suppose Guts becomes much, much stronger later on but he was slicing people in half from very early on. One was left with the feeling that this guy can do virtually anything, if he tries hard enough, does that remind you of Raki in any way? Yes, Raki can be given a magic artifact or humans might suddenly become able to match some weak Youma or even AB but this would be one very illogical, inconsistent and forced twist. The only form of magic/supernatural we have seen in Claymore are the Youma and the Claymores, so logically Raki should either become a Claymore or remain a weakling.



I don't know what he is supposed to do but what you have described would be way more beneficial for the anti-Youma cause than Raki training swordfighting. Since when the hero's sidekick is obliged to be a decent fighter, too? Or even try to become one. I am not fond of Raki at all but I'd much rather have the current Raki who cannot fight to save his life (pun intended) tran one who suddenly became strong through some random plot device power up.



Anime is not a genre and you are making a sweeping generalization which is quite wrong (though often very true for certain types of anime).
I am of an opposite opinion i would prefer a raki who got powered up by some random plot device than thi annoying useless waste we got now.
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Old 2007-09-29, 19:58   Link #279
hipeach
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, they use new versions of old techniques. And the point wasn't that they'd discovered some new mental power stemming from not using their youki. They just learnt how to use their enhanced bodies. Like learning new karate moves or something.


No, Raphaela really isn't using her youki, under no circumstances. That's her gimmick. The Lucky 7 copied it. They didn't do anything new. (Except adapt other techniques, like Jean's drill or Flora's windcutter, to their youki-deprived situation.)

It means more than that. It's mean they've been suppressing their power for a long time... like Raphaela.

No. On the pill, they can't access their youki, period. All they have are their physically enhanced bodies.
Like I said, you should read the manga more carefully. Raphaela's gimmick is to completely conceal her demon power very well, not pulling high-speed sword without using demon power. Concealing the power is different from not using it at all. The manga explicitly stated that the protagonists uses a completely new technique now, not copying from anyone. If you have to ignore what has been clearly stated in the manga to favor your own interpretation, and we are like reading two completely different versions of the manga, then this is going nowhere.

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I know that in most settings, guards are just mooks waiting, at best, to be shown up by the hero, at worst, to be slaughtered by him. But let's insert a bit of realism here. Not where Claymores are concerned, of course, but within humanity.

The Church warriors are professional soldiers of a rich organisation. While it is possible that some other army, somewhere, is superior to them thanks to better doctrines and/or equipment, an individual swordsman is never going to be much better than the church's swordsmen. He may become a bit better, but not enough to matter.

For example, take professional athletes. People able to run 100m in less than, say, 11 seconds. If you train, maybe you'll be able to run faster than them. Maybe you'll be able to beat the world record. But at best, you'll only shave off a few hundredth of seconds. You will not run 100 in less than 2 seconds. Because humans can't do that.
Claymore is not about real world realism, so talking about any real world athletes performance is taking you nowhere. Claymore is a mix of fantasy and wuxia, and really there's not much realism regarding humanity in either genre.

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My point was, in Claymore, full humans don't possess Claymore-level physical abilities. (Or Claymores wouldn't exist in the first place.)
The only thing we know for now is that humans are supposedly absolutely impossible to possess claymore-level power. Well, at the beginning of the manga, claymores who go over the limit are supposedly absolutely impossible to regain humanity. the organization up to this point found no other way of fighting the demons, that doesn't mean there's no other way later. It's like saying the invention of guns is impossible because that means arrows and bows wouldn't exist in the first place

Last edited by hipeach; 2007-09-29 at 23:29.
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Old 2007-09-29, 22:44   Link #280
RoryTate
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Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
Yes, Raki can be given a magic artifact or humans might suddenly become able to match some weak Youma or even AB but this would be one very illogical, inconsistent and forced twist. The only form of magic/supernatural we have seen in Claymore are the Youma and the Claymores, so logically Raki should either become a Claymore or remain a weakling.
Actually, there is another option I believe the author could possibly use for Raki. Since humans have no youki, it might be possible for them to affect it in some special way that Claymores cannot. It could be similar to Raki's effect on the runaway youki when Clare almost awakened for the first time (though that was never actually explained in detail). Still, with an ability to affect youki and generally good swordsmanship, Raki could become an extremely useful ally for Clare (say, by weakening powerful opponents like Awakened Ones for her, since their strength arises from their ability to control exceptionally large amounts of youki), yet he would still be only at human-level strength.

And remember, this is anime we're talking about here. There are myriad different ways that "power-levels" can be reset or changed, sometimes to the point where "suspension of disbelief" becomes an insult to the intelligence of the readers/viewers.
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