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Old 2010-01-18, 13:49   Link #81
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Originally Posted by yaluckyboy View Post
If Naruto could use water then he could use the Jutsu he and Yamato did together
No, to combine 2 elemental jutsus, you need a kekkei genkai, Haku could use ice because he used water and wind, same thin shodaime hokage with mokuton (water and earth). Different is the capability to use 2 or more elemental jutsus, like Kakashi or Sandaime Hokage.
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Old 2010-01-18, 17:27   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
No, to combine 2 elemental jutsus, you need a kekkei genkai, Haku could use ice because he used water and wind, same thin shodaime hokage with mokuton (water and earth). Different is the capability to use 2 or more elemental jutsus, like Kakashi or Sandaime Hokage.
I don't mean the Mokuton, I mean the Jutsu where Naruto uses the Rasengan and Yamato uses that Water Jutsu and make a combo strong enough to block Kakuzu's Fire and Wind attack
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Old 2010-01-18, 17:33   Link #83
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I don't mean the Mokuton, I mean the Jutsu where Naruto uses the Rasengan and Yamato uses that Water Jutsu and make a combo strong enough to block Kakuzu's Fire and Wind attack
Collaboration jutsu... 2 ninjas can do the trick, but 1 ninja requires a kekkei genkai to do it.
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Old 2010-01-18, 17:36   Link #84
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^With Kage Bushins, Naruto could conceivably use Gufū Suika no Jutsu if he knew how to use the water element.
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Old 2010-01-18, 18:03   Link #85
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^With Kage Bushins, Naruto could conceivably use Gufū Suika no Jutsu if he knew how to use the water element.
Theorically, no. Because Naruto is already using one element, a KB basically only would use the same element. That's the reason why he needs a Kekkei Genkai.

One thing is to use one, two or three elements, another thing is to mix two or more elements.

To use GSnJ a ninja would need a Kekkei Genkai. When there is 2 ninjas, only needs one ninja using water and the other using wind. Kakuzu could mix elemental jutsus because he had a lot of "hearts" of differents affinities.

Sandaime Hokage could use Earth and Fire but he never use a "lava release" (as Mizukage can... and she can do it because her Kekkei Genkai). Sasuke can use Fire and Lightning but never mix them.
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Old 2010-01-18, 18:10   Link #86
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Theorically, no. Because Naruto is already using one element, a KB basically only would use the same element. That's the reason why he needs a Kekkei Genkai.
What are you talking about? We know that Kage Bushins can use jutsus (henge and Rasengan, for example), and they can use these jutsus because Naruto can (Anything Naruto knows, they know). Consequently, If a Kage Bushin were to use a water technique at the same time as Naruto using a Wind Rasengan, then they could recreate Gufū Suika no Jutsu.

You obviously do not need to have a bloodline for 2 seperate individuals to combine elements (else, Yamato and Naruto could have never combined their attacks), you only need a bloodline (presumably) to combine 2 elements in one body. Combining 2 elements in one body can be used to create an entirely new element; combining 2 elements from 2 bodies just creates a combination attack. They are 2 completely different things.

Once again, Naruto, with a Kage Bushin, can create combination attacks like Gufū Suika no Jutsu. That is all I said.

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Old 2010-01-18, 20:27   Link #87
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Consequently, If a Kage Bushin were to use a water technique at the same time as Naruto using a Wind Rasengan, then they could recreate Gufū Suika no Jutsu.
No, because Naruto would need in order to manipulate another element besides wind... that's the point. To be able to manipulete to elements at the same time and fusing them in one jutsu, that is only because to a Kekkei Genkai.



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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
You obviously do not need to have a bloodline for 2 seperate individuals to combine elements (else, Yamato and Naruto could have never combined their attacks), you only need a bloodline (presumably) to combine 2 elements in one body. Combining 2 elements in one body can be used to create an entirely new element; combining 2 elements from 2 bodies just creates a combination attack. They are 2 completely different things.

Once again, Naruto, with a Kage Bushin, can create combination attacks like Gufū Suika no Jutsu. That is all I said.
Technically... a KB is ONE body... for that reason if a clon learns something, once he dissapears, Naruto will gain that knowledge.

A KG is a copy/pasta reproduction of the original. A clon will not be able to combine 2 elements from 2 bodies, because they aren't 2 different things, a KB is the same thing than Naruto.
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Old 2010-01-18, 21:34   Link #88
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To be able to manipulete to elements at the same time and fusing them in one jutsu, that is only because to a Kekkei Genkai.
No shit. No one is disagreeing with this. Rather, if you would actually read my, and yaluckyboy's, post, you would realize that we are only talking about techniques that require 2 individual bodies (no matter what you may believe, a Kage Bushin is a separate body) to combine their elemental attacks to create a larger elemental attack (ala the constantly mentioned attack Naruto and Yamato used against Kakuzu). We are not talking about Kekkei Genkai techniques. We are talking about 2 seperate techniques that come together and create a new technique. Not a new element. Just a new technique. Go back to Chapter 337 to find out exactly what yaluckyboy and I are talking about...

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Old 2010-01-18, 23:01   Link #89
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No shit. No one is disagreeing with this. Rather, if you would actually read my, and yaluckyboy's, post, you would realize that we are only talking about techniques that require 2 individual bodies (no matter what you may believe, a Kage Bushin is a separate body) to combine their elemental attacks to create a larger elemental attack (ala the constantly mentioned attack Naruto and Yamato used against Kakuzu). We are not talking about Kekkei Genkai techniques. We are talking about 2 seperate techniques that come together and create a new technique. Not a new element. Just a new technique. Go back to Chapter 337 to find out exactly what yaluckyboy and I are talking about...
Yes... you are talking about kekkei genkai, because no one can mix 2 elemental jutsus without a Kekkei Genkai. Im not talking about a "new element", im talking about mixing two elements. Naruto and Yamato mixed two jutsus from different nature. That's why they could cancel Wind+Fire from Kakuzu... Kakashi uses every element, why he can't use a KB and does the same trick, uh?

Naruto and Yamato are 2 different ninjas... Naruto and a KB are the same ninja, a KB counts as "a tool", they aren't a different ninja.

Even in the filler ... it would be so much easy and eye-candy a KB using water element and the original naruto using wind to use the trick. But they use Gamatatsu and Naruto.
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Old 2010-01-18, 23:43   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
Yes... you are talking about kekkei genkai, because no one can mix 2 elemental jutsus without a Kekkei Genkai. Im not talking about a "new element", im talking about mixing two elements. Naruto and Yamato mixed two jutsus from different nature. That's why they could cancel Wind+Fire from Kakuzu... Kakashi uses every element, why he can't use a KB and does the same trick, uh?

Naruto and Yamato are 2 different ninjas... Naruto and a KB are the same ninja, a KB counts as "a tool", they aren't a different ninja.

Even in the filler ... it would be so much easy and eye-candy a KB using water element and the original naruto using wind to use the trick. But they use Gamatatsu and Naruto.
You're suggesting that if someone makes a copy that the copy suddenly loses the ability of whatever primary has?

If Naruto was to learn how to use water techniques, why would he suddenly not be able to use them with his shadow copies? There isn't any other ninja who uses copies the same way Naruto does, so there isn't any reason to believe that his copies would suddenly gimp themselves of their techniques just because the primary decides "oh hey guys, only wind techniques this fight".

The 3rd and Kakashi both used varied elemental techniques just fine, but neither could use copies the same way Naruto did due to stamina concerns. There isn't anything to suggest that the 3rd couldn't have used a copy to help make his earth dragon fire technique instead of just himself in his battle against Oro.
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Old 2010-01-18, 23:59   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
Yes... you are talking about kekkei genkai, because no one can mix 2 elemental jutsus without a Kekkei Genkai. Im not talking about a "new element", im talking about mixing two elements. Naruto and Yamato mixed two jutsus from different nature. That's why they could cancel Wind+Fire from Kakuzu...
No it is not. I am not talking about combining elements (if you thought I was, I apologize for the misunderstanding). I am talking about combining elemental attacks. They are completely different things. One creates a new element (Mokuton, etc), the other simply combines 2 elemental techniques to create an overall more powerful technique that is made up of 2 different elements.

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Kakashi uses every element, why he can't use a KB and does the same trick, uh?
Because Kakashi's got shit for chakra reserves.

Who cares if no one else has ever done this before. No one had ever used Kage Bushins to circumvent the use of Toads in Senjutsu training, but that was still done, right? Just cause it hasn't been shown to be done before does not mean it cannot be done, and since it doesn't break any of the known rules, it is well within the realm of speculation.

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Naruto and Yamato are 2 different ninjas... Naruto and a KB are the same ninja, a KB counts as "a tool", they aren't a different ninja.
I really do not know how to simplify this any further for you...Naruto creates a Kage Bushin and instructs it to use Elemental Attack Water. While the Kage Bushin is performing the attack, Naruto can Perform Elemental Attack Wind. They can then be combined together to create a combination attack, or they can be used separately. The fact that the Kage Bushin is a clone of Naruto has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the 2 attacks could potentially be combined.
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Old 2010-01-19, 00:11   Link #92
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I really do not know how to simplify this any further for you...Naruto creates a Kage Bushin and instructs it to use Elemental Attack Water. While the Kage Bushin is performing the attack, Naruto can Perform Elemental Attack Wind. They can then be combined together to create a combination attack, or they can be used separately. The fact that the Kage Bushin is a clone of Naruto has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the 2 attacks could potentially be combined.
the only problem is these sort of attacks, and fighting techniques are hardly ever used. This is why sometimes the fights in naruto feel extremely gimicky, some of the best uses of combat techniques and real synergistic or outside of the box things was when jiraya taught naruto to use kage bunshins to change his momentum and direction while mid air. The problem with most fights is that they boil down to one or two special moves, this specifically attributed more so in fights involving sasuke, since naruto's pain fight was quite awesome, but yea overall kishi leaves the elemental attacks out which is sad because there is sooo much information and interesting tactics that could be used to create more complex, interesting fights other than rasengan/chidori/jinkuri spam when it comes to naruto and sasuke. And since most of this elemental stuff isn't even touched you can't expect many readers to grasp the power of elemental jutsus working in tandem.
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Old 2010-01-19, 08:53   Link #93
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Elemental attacks need a lot of chakra and time (Hand seals), if Naruto was to bother doing a combo with his KB associates, any enemy would just kawarimi away. Besides earth, I don't see any other elements being usable with stealth, unless someone (say, Kakashi) could dig a tunnel and lead a fire dragon through it to make a fire pillar rise from a...classic pit trap with leaves and sticks on top?
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Old 2010-01-19, 10:04   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
Yes... you are talking about kekkei genkai, because no one can mix 2 elemental jutsus without a Kekkei Genkai. Im not talking about a "new element", im talking about mixing two elements. Naruto and Yamato mixed two jutsus from different nature. That's why they could cancel Wind+Fire from Kakuzu... Kakashi uses every element, why he can't use a KB and does the same trick, uh?

Naruto and Yamato are 2 different ninjas... Naruto and a KB are the same ninja, a KB counts as "a tool", they aren't a different ninja.

Even in the filler ... it would be so much easy and eye-candy a KB using water element and the original naruto using wind to use the trick. But they use Gamatatsu and Naruto.
There are plenty of cases where the use of two Elemental Jutsus are combined to create a new Jutsu (NOT A NEW ELEMENT!!!)

Jiraiya + Gamabunta -> Toad Oil Flame Bullet
Sarutobi Earth Style and Fire Style Jutsu (can't remember the name)
Kakuzu Fire Mask + Wind Mask -> Powerful Fire Jutsu (still can't remember the name)
Naruto + Yamato -> Gufu Suika

The idea that two Shadow Clones from the same person can not use two seperate Elements is just ridiculous. The only thing that supports this idea is that Naruto says that using Clones for different things is hard to focus on. But even this should still allow him to use two Elements at the same time.
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Old 2010-01-19, 10:58   Link #95
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There are plenty of cases where the use of two Elemental Jutsus are combined to create a new Jutsu (NOT A NEW ELEMENT!!!)

Jiraiya + Gamabunta -> Toad Oil Flame Bullet
Sarutobi Earth Style and Fire Style Jutsu (can't remember the name)
Kakuzu Fire Mask + Wind Mask -> Powerful Fire Jutsu (still can't remember the name)
Naruto + Yamato -> Gufu Suika
There is the point... Sarutobi never mixed 2 elemental jutsus, the other examples have 2 ninjas doing the trick. Remember Fukasaku + Shima + Jiraiya also.


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The idea that two Shadow Clones from the same person can not use two seperate Elements is just ridiculous. The only thing that supports this idea is that Naruto says that using Clones for different things is hard to focus on. But even this should still allow him to use two Elements at the same time.
Isn't ridiculous... we haven't seen nothing like that.
One Naruto clon isn't a different Naruto, it's the same Naruto, with the same abilities, so, if Naruto could manage water jutsus besides wind jutsus, the only way to using (and i'm not talking about creat ice) both at the same time is a Kekkei Genkai.

Please go to read ch 316:
Quote:
Yamato: When you have 2 elements that you can control it's not very difficult to use it separately. But it's totally different history when it comes to using both together...
Kakashi:... The ability to control 2 elements simultaneously it's called a Kekkei Genkai.
In that Chapter Yamato even said that "wood element" didn't exist at all and Kakashi said that the secret is using both TOGETHER by controlling two elements at the same time... that's the kekkei genkai principle and that's the reason why Sharingan can't copy them.

So... if Naruto's KB is a clon, how could manipulate AND CONTROL 2 elemental jutsus without a Kekkei Genkai.

I'm based in the info of ch316.
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Old 2010-01-19, 12:50   Link #96
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One Naruto clon isn't a different Naruto, it's the same Naruto, with the same abilities, so, if Naruto could manage water jutsus besides wind jutsus, the only way to using (and i'm not talking about creat ice) both at the same time is a Kekkei Genkai.

(...)

So... if Naruto's KB is a clon, how could manipulate AND CONTROL 2 elemental jutsus without a Kekkei Genkai.
So, your opinion is based on presumption that Naruto and his clones can't control two different elements at the same time. That may be the case, but i can't find place in manga that would say that shadow clones have such limitations.

Naruto clone is supposed to be different than original, Naruto often argues with his clones or discuss tactics with them. Same about Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, original Naruto gives chakra, one clone spins, and second injects wind control. Now let's create third clone, who does some water jutsu that injects water into the whirlwind created by rasengan - yay, we have water-wind typhoon. As we saw on multiple occasions, ANY limit can be surpassed with sufficient number of clones
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:27   Link #97
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For the millionth time, I am not saying he is using the two together. I am saying he is using the reaction between the two when they collide. Like I said earlier, it's like combining a can of gas and a match; they are not combined into the same thing, they just create a different effect when you mix there individual effects.

If you don't understand it when I have simplified it to this point, it will be useless to keep going until you come to your senses and wise up. Not to be rude or anything, but you just can't see what's right in front of you, sorry.
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Old 2010-01-19, 16:19   Link #98
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original Naruto gives chakra, one clone spins, and second injects wind control.
The point is, Naruto only knows how to use one element, that being wind. The spinning was shape manipulation, something that other ninjas can do by themselves, but Naruto lacks the concentration to do it. Having a second affinity doesn't come from hard work or knowing a jutsu or two: Azuma could use both fire and wind, but he couldn't use both together. That's something genetical, concentration doesn't play a role in this one, and Naruto's paper got sliced, so his affinity is just wind.
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Old 2010-01-19, 18:25   Link #99
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For the millionth time, I am not saying he is using the two together. I am saying he is using the reaction between the two when they collide. Like I said earlier, it's like combining a can of gas and a match; they are not combined into the same thing, they just create a different effect when you mix there individual effects.

If you don't understand it when I have simplified it to this point, it will be useless to keep going until you come to your senses and wise up. Not to be rude or anything, but you just can't see what's right in front of you, sorry.
ok, ok... im not trying to be rude at all, my fault is not to be very clear.

When you say "using the two together", you forgot the principle of the use of chakra: you need to manipulate and CONTROL that. Yamato showed it perfectly: one hand with water, one hand with earth... but... when you try to use them together, that's a different history.

When you gave the gas and match example, you are right, but, that works only when a ninja bring the gas and another put the match. Naruto CAN'T bring both together, because he CAN'T manipulate and control them. In order to do it, he would need a Kekkei Genkai. A KB is a clon, not a different ninja.

We have 2 PoV... i respect yours, but i think your are mistaken the principles of chakra use and the principles of a KB, but, perhaps im the wrong one here.

To me the key point here is manipulate and control... Naruto can't control 2 elements only with KB, in FRS he just control and manipulate one element, to do it with 2 elements, he needs a Kekkei Genkai.

About affinities... ninjas can have 2 or more, the problem is using them together, that's only for ninjas with kekkei genkai.
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Old 2010-01-19, 19:43   Link #100
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Well that pretty much ends discussion It all depends on Naruto getting second affinity at all - Kishi may just decide to make his wind more powerful, or give another powerup, like controlling Kyuubi a'la Killerbee.
Maybe Naruto should let one clone be controlled by that "tamed" Kyuubi, that way using 2 elements simultaneously would be possible
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