AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-09-24, 02:00   Link #1981
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Quzor
While I can't say I'm 100% against the "luck" idea, I've been rather engaged recently, in a Richard Dawkins book (The Selfish Gene), in which he postulates that we simply exist because the proper set of variables and systems came together in such a way as to foster the existence of "life." Obviously, I use the term life loosely, as this would be life in its simplest form (an individual, single-celled organism), but bear with me on terminology. As time progressed, this particular entity somehow reproduced (perhaps, and most probably, asexually; that is, mitosis). As the surroundings and environment changed, the organism was forced to change as well, developing beneficial mutations which would allow it to exist beyond the lifespan of it's predecessor. Eventually, through general Darwinian logic (survival of the fittest, etc.), these new organisms led to the extinction of their predecessors. Continue down this path for...oh, 400,000,000 years or so...and, viola! here we are. Essentially, the argument Dawkins makes in the book is that our genes look for genetic advantages over other genes, and attempt to exploit them to perpetuate their own survival. He extrapolates this theory beyond simple genetics, but the basic points remain the same; we exist in our current form because our genes have developed the means of perpetuating their own survival, via eliminating flaws and enhancing strengths within themselves and their "peers". These traits obviously extend to all living things and their genes (Dawkins takes a liking to using birds as a means of demonstrating his points), but humans seem to be the most obvious case study to examine as, well, that's what we are.

Now, perhaps I'm way off base in the discussion here, as I didn't read the full 100 pages of this thread before commenting. If such is the case, forgive me. However, the latter pages seemed to delve more into the scientific v. religious explanation for life as it currently exists, and so I thought this may be relevant.

Note: Grains of salt to be distributed after you have completed reading this post. =)

Edit: When I was young, and was forced to do everything my parents said, I attended church. My pastor once said, during a conversation I was having with him over Creation v. Evolution: Would it be a stretch to suggest that "God" created life, and life evolved into what it is today? Somehow, that's stuck with me through the years. Perhaps there is no ultimate deity that created us as we currently are, but instead created the situation by which we were allowed to evolve into what we are today. Whether he still keeps his hand in the proverbial cookie jar is another discussion entirely.
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 02:07   Link #1982
Throne Invader
Protecting the Throne
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Throne Invader
I believe that science is responsible for the explanation of alot of things but not everything. I agree with Cipher on how "lucky" we just happen to be and that it's true that we have come to be and even how things have come to be not only because of what meets the eye or what can be observed through a microscope.

Here's a nice dialogue I found amusing:

Spoiler for =):
__________________


It's time to start letting her make her own decisions. - Mom's dermatologist~
Throne Invader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 02:20   Link #1983
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Like I've said:"...hm..but yeah..it could be that .01%"(in truth, adding time as an unlimited variable, possibly 100% already.) The only missing factor is "when"----a factor that could be controlled by a powerful entity.

I am not removing the "automatic" as a possibility, but when I try to connect it to complex society/emotions/ and individual experience, it "feels"---using my intuition--lacking.
My own feelings and intuition and such was much the same way in the past. Indeed, most peoples would be as it is likely part of our cautious and curious nature. My own history basically went from liberal christian (with occasional drops of certain fundamentalist trains of thought) as child into my early teens, then into deism during my mid to late teens, and then basically secular humanist atheism pretty much around when I turned 20. The more I read about what we know of our existance from, biology, physics, astronomy etc, as well as reading about the various relgions and philosophy's and other history over the years ultimately brought me to my humanist atheist stance, and my overall feelings and intuition on such things evolved along the way to be in line with that stance.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 02:24   Link #1984
roriconfan
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thessaloniki - Greece
Send a message via MSN to roriconfan
There is no luck. Nothing happens at random. Everything happens because of a reason. But not always "for" a reason so don't you dare think there is fate. And in case you are wandering, yes, everything is cause and effect, where effect becomes the cause of something else later on. And yes, that requires for the universe to be eternal or at least for God to exist in order to have caused the first effect that made everything else to follow. So, every event in existense is basically a chain reaction and nothing happens at random or without a reason. People usually don't see the big picture and attribute what they don't see as luck and a mystery.
roriconfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 02:35   Link #1985
Kakashi
カカシ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Send a message via MSN to Kakashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
No offense, but this is what I mean by lacking intuition...nothing wrong with that, It's quite practical but.. just too "inside the box", that's all.
I was giving TLR an alternative, but I'm an agnostic. In the strict sense that I don't know. And I don't know a lot.
Kakashi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 02:45   Link #1986
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Quzor
Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
There is no luck. Nothing happens at random.
Really? Damn. I bet there's a lot of people with losing lottery tickets who are more pissed off now than they were before.
Quote:
Everything happens because of a reason. But not always "for" a reason so don't you dare think there is fate.
So things happen with no apparent explanation as to why, or to what purpose? Wow, that's unluck....nope, wait; there's no luck. Nevermind.
Quote:
And in case you are wandering, yes, everything is cause and effect, where effect becomes the cause of something else later on. And yes, that requires for the universe to be eternal or at least for God to exist in order to have caused the first effect that made everything else to follow.
No luck, no randomness. God must exist because the universe exists. Take that, big bang believers!
Quote:
So, every event in existense is basically a chain reaction and nothing happens at random or without a reason. People usually don't see the big picture and attribute what they don't see as luck and a mystery.
I...umm...huh?

This just sounds like the random ravings of a religious person, attempting to disprove science in favor of the "God" theory. Things happen because other things happened, even though those things that happen sometimes don't mean anything. The universe exists, and must be eternal, therefor God must exist.

From my, admittedly, minimal religious knowledge (I really only have experience with Lutheranism), religious folks would choose to argue that everything happens for a reason, though we may not know what that reason is. While I can understand where the idea of "no such thing as luck" comes from, within the context of this belief, it seems out of place in your argument. The idea that God controls the things that happen, but that those things may happen for no reason seems unusually cruel to me, if they come from a truly omniscient being. The idea of God toying with his creation with no purpose; doesn't that unsettle you just a little bit?
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 03:11   Link #1987
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
The problem i have with religion is that i think man are too egoistic to think that a being capable of creating the universe (if it exist) will accord preferential treatment to man. Man is only better than mere animals by their intelligence. However, to a being with infinite intelligence there will be no perceived difference between man and animals. It also would not need any pointless worship from mere man.
I agree with that last statement, need being the keyword here.

However, if we view this supreme being as a creator and man as part of his creation, then so called preferential treatment only comes from having a different purpose than another creation, such as the animals. Different purpose would necessitate different attribute(s). And along with level of intelligence and the ability to reason, man is differentiated from animals by the ability to have faith in and worship such a creator.

To go back to the part that I agree with, yes such a being would not need any kind of worship from man. Need in the sense that worship benefits such a being in any way. In fact, worship that comes from faith shows the realization that man needs his creator rather than the other way around.

So rather than seeing what is similar between man and animals and deciding that such similarity does not justify preferential treatment, I look at what makes them different and see how such difference enables different purpose for man. And if that purpose is enough for man to be accorded preferential treatment, it would not come out of a need for man's worship. Instead, it is out of the creator's sovereignty in being able to choose what he wants to give to man to serve the creator's will.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 03:16   Link #1988
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
There is no luck. Nothing happens at random. Everything happens because of a reason. But not always "for" a reason so don't you dare think there is fate. And in case you are wandering, yes, everything is cause and effect, where effect becomes the cause of something else later on. And yes, that requires for the universe to be eternal or at least for God to exist in order to have caused the first effect that made everything else to follow. So, every event in existense is basically a chain reaction and nothing happens at random or without a reason. People usually don't see the big picture and attribute what they don't see as luck and a mystery.
Um... I suggest some coursework in quantum mechanics and complexity theory? You're describing a clockwork Newtonian universe and that's been discarded long ago once we started looking a bit harder at reality than Newton could with his limited tools.

To respond to Cipher, no *I'm* not a Deist. About the closest thing that might describe me is a "skeptical zen animist". As a poetic description, I think each one of us is an example of complexity arising out of the flow of reality, an instance of a standing wave, swirl, or froth that exists for a brief time. Some of us happen to be complex enough to look around and be self-aware, perhaps even compare notes with others. We should simply cherish the brief time we have as an amazing thing.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 03:44   Link #1989
CrossoverManiac
Come and drink my koolaid
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Age: 37
Send a message via Yahoo to CrossoverManiac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
And?...
And what?

Quote:
TLR and Vexx make very good points. The choice is not as important as the reason. It is silly to believe in something mindlessly, or to profess that you believe in something without ever giving thought to it.

Coming in here and stating your affiliation does little to serve any point of conversation.
Jump to conclusion much? Just because I didn't give a reason doesn't mean I didn't have one. I mentioned my faith as matter of fact. Not as a rebuttal against non-Catholic nor to proselytize them, not a justification of the Catholic denomination; but merely stating a fact that I am Catholic.
__________________
Author original superhero story Metadeliquents (updated 07/28/08) and a few anime music videos.[/size]
CrossoverManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 05:41   Link #1990
Xrayz0r
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
I see the world as a beautiful place because I'm living a comfortable life
I don't know how old you are, or how educated. For all I know you're just some 10 year old anime geek who just happened to come across this thread and decided to say something. But that has got to be the biggest and most despicable insult to morality I've heared coming from someone who claims to be human. Especially considering the post you quoted.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
Xrayz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 06:08   Link #1991
Kusa-San
I'll end it before April.
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God and the all "human were created by him". The truth is I find more probable that human were created by Alien than God. I have always thinking than maybe God is just something to describe alien.

And I don't think the Earth and the Universe were made by God. It's true that the life on Earth is due to many extraodinary conditions (Jupiter, distance with the sun, the Moon etc...) but it's not impossible. And we start finding some extra-planet which seems to be close to the Earth in term of composition.

About the religion in itself, it's a good and bad thing. It's a good thing because religion is something which can stop people to do some bad thing. They believe in God and Satan. So they won't do something bad because they don't want to go in Hell. Futhermore, Religion give hope to people which is important.

But it's also a bad thing because many conflicts is due to religion.
__________________
Kusa-San is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 07:04   Link #1992
Liddo-kun
Come on everyone
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nanairogaoka
Send a message via MSN to Liddo-kun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
I don't know how old you are, or how educated. For all I know you're just some 10 year old anime geek who just happened to come across this thread and decided to say something. But that has got to be the biggest and most despicable insult to morality I've heared coming from someone who claims to be human. Especially considering the post you quoted.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
I'm only 10 years old?
That's so presumptuous of you.

You're so annoyed because a person is living for the sake of enjoying life?
If you expect every person in the world to show unlimited benevolence, then you have a serious problem in your way of thinking.
I already have my hands full with a job and several other responsibilities, so don't expect me to perform charity work for people whom I don't even know.

Donating a little cash to the church (whenever my catholic coworkers convince me to come with them) is the only charity that I do.

*to the other debaters here, sorry for my off topic post

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2009-09-24 at 07:22.
Liddo-kun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 07:16   Link #1993
roriconfan
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thessaloniki - Greece
Send a message via MSN to roriconfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
So things happen with no apparent explanation as to why, or to what purpose?
Don't go blind there. I clearly wrote that they happen because of a reason. The purpose of which is self excused. They happen so they can happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
Things happen because other things happened, even though those things that happen sometimes don't mean anything. The universe exists, and must be eternal, therefor God must exist.
Why are you going against me here? It is either existing since forever or it was created by a higher power out of thin air. The chain reaction either moves in circles or began at some point by what we call God. There is nothing weird to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
The idea that God controls the things that happen, but that those things may happen for no reason seems unusually cruel to me, if they come from a truly omniscient being. The idea of God toying with his creation with no purpose; doesn't that unsettle you just a little bit?
Not at all. He could have created us to be his toys so noworries for being exactly what we were made to be. Or there is not good or evil in the first place and things are simply as they are yet we like to selfishly seperate actions into good and evil where this distinction never existed in the first place. Maybe profitable and damaging are better terms.
roriconfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 07:33   Link #1994
ChainLegacy
廉頗
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts, US
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Write that down somewhere, along with your current way of thinking, and don't look at it again for two to five years. Time changes things in a manner that you can't predict and may not even realize. Everything changes.
You are right, I've lived long enough to have realized this fact. It isn't universally truth, though. I have trouble seeing this stance change (as opposed to my more subjective views, which change quite noticeably over time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
@ChainLegacy: Can you really settle for such pathetic way of life? I mean, living for the sake of living?
What makes it pathetic? Religion has instilled in our culture the ideology that life is worthless without some kind of creator behind it. But, truly, what is the logic behind this? Can this be supported by facts, or is it perhaps some vague, unreflected thought that is accepted as true simply because people don't consider the alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
If your truly satisfied with the current world, we cannot help but feel disappointed. This world is not "beautiful". Come on people, why don't you, for even an event of a second, view the world on the face of poverty? of the starving? of those majority who couldn't care less for "beliefs" but for shelter?
What majority? Humans are a tiny speck of a massive group of living things. You choose to view the world with terms like 'poverty' and focus on humanity, whereas I view the world as it has been for the past 560 million years or so, a stage for large-scale evolution. There is much beauty in my viewpoint.
ChainLegacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 07:36   Link #1995
SeedFreedom
Hina is my goddess
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I've been looking for a chance to jump into this conversation for a whiile now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
There is no luck. Nothing happens at random. Everything happens because of a reason. But not always "for" a reason so don't you dare think there is fate. And in case you are wandering, yes, everything is cause and effect, where effect becomes the cause of something else later on. And yes, that requires for the universe to be eternal or at least for God to exist in order to have caused the first effect that made everything else to follow. So, every event in existense is basically a chain reaction and nothing happens at random or without a reason. People usually don't see the big picture and attribute what they don't see as luck and a mystery.
So let me ask you this. According to your belief, everything happens for a reason correct? So my not believing in a god is also for a reason. If god is really all powerful or has some sort of master plan then there is no point in me going against his will and i should remain an atheist as it was how i was raised. If for his plan i needed to believe in him it would be very simple. For me to believe in god i simply need to see a miracle that can't be explained by science. Something that brakes every rule. Since he has not done so, even when the amount of people who consider themselves religious is on a decrease, it means having a faith isn't that important to his plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
And what?



Jump to conclusion much? Just because I didn't give a reason doesn't mean I didn't have one. I mentioned my faith as matter of fact. Not as a rebuttal against non-Catholic nor to proselytize them, not a justification of the Catholic denomination; but merely stating a fact that I am Catholic.
What Reckoner was trying to say is that this is a discussion about faith and just naming your faith doesn't really add to the conversation.
__________________
Goodbye AnimeSuki
You have lost your once great spirit
SeedFreedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 09:19   Link #1996
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
If for his plan i needed to believe in him it would be very simple. For me to believe in god i simply need to see a miracle that can't be explained by science. Something that brakes every rule. Since he has not done so, even when the amount of people who consider themselves religious is on a decrease, it means having a faith isn't that important to his plan.
Faith is being certain of what you don't see. So if you don't see a rule-breaking miracle, then all the more reason why faith is important.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 09:26   Link #1997
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
While I can't say I'm 100% against the "luck" idea, I've been rather engaged recently, in a Richard Dawkins book (The Selfish Gene), in which he postulates that we simply exist because the proper set of variables and systems came together in such a way as to foster the existence of "life." Obviously, I use the term life loosely, as this would be life in its simplest form (an individual, single-celled organism), but bear with me on terminology. As time progressed, this particular entity somehow reproduced (perhaps, and most probably, asexually; that is, mitosis). As the surroundings and environment changed, the organism was forced to change as well, developing beneficial mutations which would allow it to exist beyond the lifespan of it's predecessor. Eventually, through general Darwinian logic (survival of the fittest, etc.), these new organisms led to the extinction of their predecessors. Continue down this path for...oh, 400,000,000 years or so...and, viola! here we are. Essentially, the argument Dawkins makes in the book is that our genes look for genetic advantages over other genes, and attempt to exploit them to perpetuate their own survival. He extrapolates this theory beyond simple genetics, but the basic points remain the same; we exist in our current form because our genes have developed the means of perpetuating their own survival, via eliminating flaws and enhancing strengths within themselves and their "peers". These traits obviously extend to all living things and their genes (Dawkins takes a liking to using birds as a means of demonstrating his points), but humans seem to be the most obvious case study to examine as, well, that's what we are.

Now, perhaps I'm way off base in the discussion here, as I didn't read the full 100 pages of this thread before commenting. If such is the case, forgive me. However, the latter pages seemed to delve more into the scientific v. religious explanation for life as it currently exists, and so I thought this may be relevant.
Impressive well-thought explanation. The only thing I can say is that this isn't a scientific vs. religious debate, this is a science vs. science debate. Both "scientific" and "religious" theories are both theories---perhaps the latter doesn't coincide with present understood reality but "reality" itself is another argument. The presence of God are quite valid scientific theories...its just a matter of difference in origins/innovators. Darwin Vs. Abraham perhaps?


Quote:
Edit: When I was young, and was forced to do everything my parents said, I attended church. My pastor once said, during a conversation I was having with him over Creation v. Evolution: Would it be a stretch to suggest that "God" created life, and life evolved into what it is today? Somehow, that's stuck with me through the years. Perhaps there is no ultimate deity that created us as we currently are, but instead created the situation by which we were allowed to evolve into what we are today. Whether he still keeps his hand in the proverbial cookie jar is another discussion entirely.
Again, there are no solid "scientific" proof in all of these. What I can only suggest is choose the most beneficial belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
My own feelings and intuition and such was much the same way in the past. Indeed, most peoples would be as it is likely part of our cautious and curious nature. My own history basically went from liberal christian (with occasional drops of certain fundamentalist trains of thought) as child into my early teens, then into deism during my mid to late teens, and then basically secular humanist atheism pretty much around when I turned 20. The more I read about what we know of our existance from, biology, physics, astronomy etc, as well as reading about the various relgions and philosophy's and other history over the years ultimately brought me to my humanist atheist stance, and my overall feelings and intuition on such things evolved along the way to be in line with that stance.
Interesting. Mine developed the other route. The more I learned science AND social-sciences, the more my belief tightened. To me, everything just clicked. Now I'm pretty sure that many here are ignorant of Islam. I could describe my religion on the length of similar to walking 10 miles. But I'll make it simple.There's five pillars---requirements for the "afterlife". (I won't include any Arabic terms)These five pillars include the self, society, and the discipline gained from it. Of course, after that there's several complexities but if you're still interested, search the net.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post

This just sounds like the random ravings of a religious person, attempting to disprove science in favor of the "God" theory. Things happen because other things happened, even though those things that happen sometimes don't mean anything. The universe exists, and must be eternal, therefor God must exist.

From my, admittedly, minimal religious knowledge (I really only have experience with Lutheranism), religious folks would choose to argue that everything happens for a reason, though we may not know what that reason is. While I can understand where the idea of "no such thing as luck" comes from, within the context of this belief, it seems out of place in your argument. The idea that God controls the things that happen, but that those things may happen for no reason seems unusually cruel to me, if they come from a truly omniscient being. The idea of God toying with his creation with no purpose; doesn't that unsettle you just a little bit?
...your confused, even I, a monotheist, believe in luck. Tell me: What religion prospers the idea that "everything happens for a reason"? I don't really think that God is interested in minor insignificant occurrences, God doesn't care if your born white or black, what God cares for is the actions you'll take. This really contradicts too much with why we're given brains and the ability to choose and why there's hell and heaven. Too much reasoning everything will lead into us becoming totally controlled.


Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
I agree with that last statement, need being the keyword here.

However, if we view this supreme being as a creator and man as part of his creation, then so called preferential treatment only comes from having a different purpose than another creation, such as the animals. Different purpose would necessitate different attribute(s). And along with level of intelligence and the ability to reason, man is differentiated from animals by the ability to have faith in and worship such a creator.

To go back to the part that I agree with, yes such a being would not need any kind of worship from man. Need in the sense that worship benefits such a being in any way. In fact, worship that comes from faith shows the realization that man needs his creator rather than the other way around.

So rather than seeing what is similar between man and animals and deciding that such similarity does not justify preferential treatment, I look at what makes them different and see how such difference enables different purpose for man. And if that purpose is enough for man to be accorded preferential treatment, it would not come out of a need for man's worship. Instead, it is out of the creator's sovereignty in being able to choose what he wants to give to man to serve the creator's will.
But why create man, who will need, in the first place? My religion-based answer on this would be, "cannot be defined". The complexity of the answer probably goes beyond the reach of human thinking. Still, it makes me wonder...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
To respond to Cipher, no *I'm* not a Deist. About the closest thing that might describe me is a "skeptical zen animist". As a poetic description, I think each one of us is an example of complexity arising out of the flow of reality, an instance of a standing wave, swirl, or froth that exists for a brief time. Some of us happen to be complex enough to look around and be self-aware, perhaps even compare notes with others. We should simply cherish the brief time we have as an amazing thing.
I'd really like to share my religion with you. If only you were more of a society person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God and the all "human were created by him". The truth is I find more probable that human were created by Alien than God. I have always thinking than maybe God is just something to describe alien.

And I don't think the Earth and the Universe were made by God. It's true that the life on Earth is due to many extraodinary conditions (Jupiter, distance with the sun, the Moon etc...) but it's not impossible. And we start finding some extra-planet which seems to be close to the Earth in term of composition.

About the religion in itself, it's a good and bad thing. It's a good thing because religion is something which can stop people to do some bad thing. They believe in God and Satan. So they won't do something bad because they don't want to go in Hell. Futhermore, Religion give hope to people which is important.

But it's also a bad thing because many conflicts is due to religion.
If this is coming from an "Islamic" experience, the blame must not lie on the religion itself...its the people who chose the wrong decisions and were too ignorant of even their own religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
What majority? Humans are a tiny speck of a massive group of living things. You choose to view the world with terms like 'poverty' and focus on humanity, whereas I view the world as it has been for the past 560 million years or so, a stage for large-scale evolution. There is much beauty in my viewpoint.
Poverty is beautiful? Do you truly believe this?

On Groups of living things, I understand where your coming from. But there are society norms we have to consider. I've eaten "chicken" for as long as I can remember, and yet I don't feel any regret towards consuming them. It is pretty justifiable---society norm-wise. I focus more on humanity because I've regarded them as the most influential, and therefore, sadly but true, " more important" beings. As selfish(note: there is no such thing as true selflessness) as it may seem, Islam had let me realize that animals, the world and nature are there for our own existence. This doesn't mean we shouldn't respect these "creations". By respecting them, regardless of justifiable intent(consuming), we respect what God has given to us, and therefore respect God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I've been looking for a chance to jump into this conversation for a whiile now.

So let me ask you this. According to your belief, everything happens for a reason correct? So my not believing in a god is also for a reason. If god is really all powerful or has some sort of master plan then there is no point in me going against his will and i should remain an atheist as it was how i was raised. If for his plan i needed to believe in him it would be very simple. For me to believe in god i simply need to see a miracle that can't be explained by science. Something that brakes every rule. Since he has not done so, even when the amount of people who consider themselves religious is on a decrease, it means having a faith isn't that important to his plan.
God is not Stalin or any totalitarian ruler. He gives us choice and freedom. He does create fate, but usually if necessary for the "grand scheme". This is Islam. If every humans wishes to destroy themselves, He lets them---our "ability to choose" was originally his own creation after all.

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-24 at 09:38.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 09:48   Link #1998
SeedFreedom
Hina is my goddess
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Faith is being certain of what you don't see. So if you don't see a rule-breaking miracle, then all the more reason why faith is important.
Im a bit confused here. Maybe i don't understand this sentence correctly. Right now i don't see anything that can't be explained by science, therefore i don't have a belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post

God is not Stalin or any totalitarian ruler. He gives us choice and freedom. He does create fate, but usually if necessary for the "grand scheme". This is Islam. If every humans wishes to destroy themselves, He lets them---our "ability to choose" was originally his own creation after all.
Then can i ask why god would allow so many people to die all in his name. If i am correct, Judaism, Christianity, and Islamic faiths all share the same god, but with different saviors (or none yet for the Jewish)(please don't be offended if i am wrong). Yet these three are fighting constantly. Why does god not end the bloodshed by defining one as correct? God is generous enough to give us freedom, but not to save those led astray by false prophets? He creates temptation, but gives us little to help resist it. He creates a savior, but only has it appear in a small region of this large world. As i said if believing in god is so important, why does he not give me a miracle so i can believe him, knowing this is the only thing that would convince me? Either god doesn't want me to be religious, or he is toying with me and purposely doesn't allow me to be saved, or he doesnt exist. Either way i see no point in worshiping him if that is true.
__________________
Goodbye AnimeSuki
You have lost your once great spirit
SeedFreedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 10:00   Link #1999
Kusa-San
I'll end it before April.
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post

If this is coming from an "Islamic" experience, the blame must not lie on the religion itself...its the people who chose the wrong decisions and were too ignorant of even their own religion.
No it's coming from history experience. Christianity, Islamism, it's all the same. It's also a source of conflict. The fact is it's also due to religion. It's not only because of some people but also because of the religion in itself.

As I said, there are good and bad points with religion. You can't only say there are only good points because it's not true.

Anyway, What do you think of sect ? Am I the only one who think that our actual religion were, at the begining, sect and then evolved into religion ?
__________________
Kusa-San is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-24, 10:29   Link #2000
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Im a bit confused here. Maybe i don't understand this sentence correctly. Right now i don't see anything that can't be explained by science, therefore i don't have a belief.
There are limitless things that science can't explain. They may provide theories but explanations need "clear" solid truths.

Quote:
Then can i ask why god would allow so many people to die all in his name. If i am correct, Judaism, Christianity, and Islamic faiths all share the same god, but with different saviors (or none yet for the Jewish)(please don't be offended if i am wrong).
Don't worry, I'm not a religious extremist/fanatic---I actually despise that because its so paradoxical.

Just an important point, the three do not share the same God. I've studied Christianity and Judaism quite well that I've understood the real differences between these three religions of the book (of course,the things I've studied might have actually been false themselves---enlighten me if it is so). (Christians please don't kill me) Christians' God(or one of their Gods) is a man named Jesus. ( I understand "the three beings in one" concept but still...this is the fact.) With Judaism, they're God is only exclusively theirs, outsiders may not join their religion (might have changed over years but still..it was or is exclusive.)

Quote:
Yet these three are fighting constantly. Why does god not end the bloodshed by defining one as correct? God is generous enough to give us freedom, but not to save those led astray by false prophets? He creates temptation, but gives us little to help resist it. He creates a savior, but only has it appear in a small region of this large world. As i said if believing in god is so important, why does he not give me a miracle so i can believe him, knowing this is the only thing that would convince me?
I've actually been waiting for these types of questions. I might as well include these questions: "Why does God let people suffer?" "Why does he let children live in poverty?".

This is what I mean by a "test". A test on "faith"(believing in the less tangible), "actions"(good or bad actions), and the situational "fate" he has created to test if others where to react well-enough upon others' ill fates. The complexity of Allah is bothersome(we truly don't know how he manages humanity and what all of his purposes are...what we can only depend on is "faith")....but it does show "wit" in some aspects.

Quote:
Either god doesn't want me to be religious, or he is toying with me and purposely doesn't allow me to be saved, or he doesnt exist. Either way i see no point in worshiping him if that is true.
He's not there to save you. This is the value of independence. Your out there to save yourselves. You choose: "Heaven" or "Hell"?

Luckily, Islam's God has been almost extremely described as "very merciful". Even a ridiculous amount of murders (lets say , 20 thousand?) could be forgiven if the murderer would truly change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
No it's coming from history experience. Christianity, Islamism, it's all the same. It's also a source of conflict. The fact is it's also due to religion. It's not only because of some people but also because of the religion in itself.


A source of conflict? But if its truly an ultimate source of conflict, why are there still people maintaining peace at the expense of their beliefs being ridiculed? Why are there Christians and Muslims that are friends? The problem with your reasoning is that you base it on one type of example alone and then you immediately deem it as it is. Muslims are taught the way of "patience", "importance of rebellion" and "control", this results into misunderstandings and falsehoods on some people. But who is truly to blame? The religion that teaches murder is a sin? or the misguided fool who acts without true understanding?
Quote:
As I said, there are good and bad points with religion. You can't only say there are only good points because it's not true.
Indirectly, my religion does have "bad" points.---but this is all subjective.

Quote:
Anyway, What do you think of sect ? Am I the only one who think that our actual religion were, at the begining, sect and then evolved into religion ?
Sect...ehem..(excuse me if this sounds arrogant) but I truly believe that there is only one and right religion---and that is the religion I follow.

A direct answer to your last question: probably no.

(oh...One important thing that's offending me...its not "Islamism"..its just "Islam", please correct that)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove View Post
You're right, it's all bullshit
Hey, we have the same age. peace..

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-24 at 10:55.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
not a debate, philosophy, religion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.