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Old 2009-09-26, 20:59   Link #2101
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
First off, lets assume there is a god, who is all powerful, for the sake of argument.
Let's start with that. But when you think of all-powerful God, don't think of just some supernatural being with some supernatural power to bend random laws of physics when he wants to. Think much more, he's the one that governs the laws of physics. From the gravitational force, to the way elements bond with each other, even to the way your respiratory system continues work day or night and while you're sleeping. He's also the one that gives human a mind with the ability to discover God's creation and learn how some it works so that they may better their lives through medicine and science.

All that and more is how you should think of God before you ask why should you praise him. If you assume such a God exists, then do you see why one would praise God?

Of course, you may think God is vain. But realize that even if he is vain, he's the only one with the right to be. Humans are not on equal term with God, and by all rights, he can do whatever he wants. God has no peer and there's not a single being in existence that has the right to judge him or even the power to put him on trial. Of course, humans can say anything they want about him, but that is only within what God allows them to do.

So if you want to know why one should praise God? The simplest answer I can give is because God, an all-powerful God, exists. And the reason why a person would not praise God is only because they don't believe God exists or they believe a being (or beings) which is closer to the level of humans that humans somehow can outwit or whatever.

That is why when someone brings up the tooth fairy, spaghetti monster, sky wizard, or even sleigh-riding Santa Claus, I feel they're missing the implication behind having a faith in God. What they're attacking is faith itself, and by showing a type of faith that would more readily appear to be futile, somehow that is supposed to invalidate a faith in God as well.
Quote:
I was born into a family of science and grew up with science. I have been taught to only believe those things that have been explained and can be proven. Fact. Out of my control.

One who learns something at an early age incorporates that into his core beliefs and it is very difficult as an adult to reject it and adopt a new set of beliefs. Debatable, but accepted by many people.
I agree with that, it applies to religious beliefs as well. That is why someone who is raised as a Christian may not be recognized as a Christian in the sight of God if they're only doing what their families told them to do. A true believer would have to decide for himself at some point in life whether he truly believes in the Bible and God that has inspired that Bible.
Quote:
According to some religions, no matter what i do and no matter how good i am, i will never get to heaven for being an atheist. Fact. Out of my control.
I believe the Bible is even more extreme in that you cannot go to heaven unless you belive in Jesus Christ and accept him as God who has atoned for all your sins, past, present, and future. No amount of good works or obedience to the law or even worship to God the Father will get you to heaven.

The way I accept that is, again, as an all-powerful God, he makes his own rule. We can accept or reject it, but we can't change it, only he can. I can accept it because I do realize my sinful nature and can understand why only the grace of God would save me. All God asks is for me to believe in the work he has done for my salvation.

Additionally, If I am to view the Bible as containing God's truth, I cannot think that I will only find things that I would like in the Bible and that I can easily understand everything and fit them all into my daily life. That is not how the truth works. The truth is the truth whether I like it or not, and many times, I may not understand the whole truth.
Quote:
I am willing to accept god, if i can see something that convinces me he exist and wants me to believe in him. He has not done so. Fact. Out of my control.
Do you believe that your decision to not believe in God is out of your control? It is your decision, after all.
Quote:
Thereby, the chances of me believing in god are slim, and would be very hard. Most of the circumstances surrounding it are out of my control. Even taking me out of the equation, there are people far removed from society living in remote regions of the world who have never heard of these religions. So is god really that unforgiving that we don't deserve salvation for circumstances that are (mostly) out of our control? Even taking the argument i could change, if god is so powerful but refuses to help me by giving me some small amount of proof, why does he deserve my praise?
Again that depends on how you view God. If you see God only as some being who happens to be able to make some unfair rule, then you'd rightly have a hard time in seeing what is prraise-worthy about God. However, if you see God as a being who has control over everything in this universe, lets you have free will, and loves you enough that he graciously allow some to be saved, then you would praise him as a believer. People might think it's unfair for those who never gets the chance to hear of God, but ultimately, he knows more about humans. And our judging him really has no use, and that is a truth I have come to accept for such an all-powerful being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not so sure. The Christian thing is to love your neighbour... but also to believe he deserves to suffer in hell for all eternity if he's an infidel. So, yeah.
Which is why a Christian would want to share the good news that they don't have to suffer in Hell for eternity, and all they have to do is to believe in Christ. Unfortunately, that's something that's probably most hated about Christianity. And for sure sometimes Christians may cross a line in doing so.
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Old 2009-09-26, 23:11   Link #2102
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Im not a religious person... i dont like calling myself atheist cause it is like giving a name to something that i myself dont even know very well.

About the idea of a God out there.... i believe there must be something like that out there but more than a being watching over us, i think we are more like the result of something that was created long ago. It is like eating a fruit and carelessly throwing the seed but that seed ends up on a fertile land and starts growing... i dont think we humans are so important as to have some God checking on us 24/7.

Also i believe there is something after death, not heaven or hell as some religions tell about but definitly something. Something related to how our world works.
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Old 2009-09-27, 03:29   Link #2103
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^

I agree with incube ^^ I'm not religious, but not really anti-religious either.

I think Wicca is awesome, but I'm not really Wiccan ^^ (Witches do so exist! )
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Old 2009-09-27, 03:34   Link #2104
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Originally Posted by Ferny View Post
I'm very strongly Christian, but that doesn't mean I go around 'hating' on everyone who's not.
<Off-topic message deleted>

Last edited by xris; 2009-09-27 at 09:13. Reason: Off-topic
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Old 2009-09-27, 03:40   Link #2105
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I have a friend who's really really really christian. Once I said to her that I thought that witchcraft is interesting, and she told me that I'd go to hell... But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all christians are like that.
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Old 2009-09-27, 04:13   Link #2106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
I have a friend who's really really really christian. Once I said to her that I thought that witchcraft is interesting, and she told me that I'd go to hell... But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all christians are like that.
Quite a lot are because witch craft is basically the same as worshipping the devil and even our religious texts say BURN THE WITCH! (not in those exact words though).

@monsert To add to that if we say there is a God then all the knowledge of right and wrong, the standards of which we judge people then all of that comes from God. Using the standards on how to judge man on God is kind of stupid IMO.

God is all-knowing so if someone dies there is probably a good excuse for him to die.

@Xrayz0rz I don't think much of a lot of Christian churches these days because they seem fake to say the least or hypocritical, some of them tell you to pay for your salvation/blessings/ which is wrong because it is like trying to put a price on a gift someone gave you, some churches preach extremist views which is also wrong. But that shouldn't be used to judge real Christians because they are not real Christians themselves.
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Old 2009-09-27, 04:19   Link #2107
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Yeah, but the thing is, I don't actually do witchcraft, I just commented, saying that I thought it was interesting (Because I was watching Buffy ). I don't think that deserved to be 'sent to hell'.

And besides, I never insult her religion, I've always respected her beliefs even though I don't actually agree with them, and I just think that it was uncalled for her to say something like that. She also says the same thing to her other 'friend' who is actually Wiccan.
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Old 2009-09-27, 05:21   Link #2108
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
But why create a ratio when you've just admitted this is an indefinite area? By definition humans are neither 'good' nor 'evil,' if they were then the words themselves would not exist because we would have no comprehension of the opposite.
This is an indefinite area, yes. But having *indefiniteness* does not mean *not* having faith. To me and, not surprisingly, to the rest of humankind, faith is enough to move them. And with "moving", they would need a helpful pattern of logic: a pattern of logic that is properly weighing the positives and negatives.

Quote:
We do not have society, order, and peace. You've been feeding me the poverty line for a while, we're far from a harmonious perfect human organization. Civilizations prosper and fail at different times, and humans' nature to socially organize is what tends to bring it back again and again.
Indeed, we're far from a harmonious perfect human organization. But we *do* have *currently* society, order, and peace.

Quote:
This isn't a comic book where people are 'good' or 'evil,' so trying to understand the root of the problem will get you nowhere. Humans are way too complex to be dichotomized in that manner.
That is your opinion and I respect that. But my opinion ( belief ) says otherwise.


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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Humans are not absolutely certain about everything, but we are more certain about somethings than others. I'm more certain about the existence of us human beings that some supposed omnipotent force we like to call "God."
We are more "certain"(not actual fact) about some things than others, yes. Like I, and several billions of population, am more "certain" about there being God than not.

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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
According to some religions, no matter what i do and no matter how good i am, i will never get to heaven for being an atheist. Fact. Out of my control.
Thank you for thanking me, I appreciate that.
1. This is not a "Fact".
2. The "fact": "Only God knows whether one will go to heaven or not."

Quote:
I am willing to accept god, if i can see something that convinces me he exist and wants me to believe in him. He has not done so. Fact. Out of my control.
Have you accepted "reality"? It is actually a matter quite similar to belief in God. They are both "beliefs". One is just more "tangible" than the other.

Quote:
Actually, you are arguing the impossible based on the definition of the words you are using. Faith, by definition, is the belief in something without proof. Thereby using faith as a proof is logically incorrect.
I did not say faith is proof. I believe that it would, *inevitably* in the end, *lead* to proof---considering that *every* human does have faith.
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Old 2009-09-27, 05:56   Link #2109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
Yeah, but the thing is, I don't actually do witchcraft, I just commented, saying that I thought it was interesting (Because I was watching Buffy ). I don't think that deserved to be 'sent to hell'.
I think she might have meant that if you do witchcraft you will go to hell

Quote:
And besides, I never insult her religion, I've always respected her beliefs even though I don't actually agree with them, and I just think that it was uncalled for her to say something like that. She also says the same thing to her other 'friend' who is actually Wiccan.
Well I would say the same thing if I thought one of my friends is doing something similar to devil worship, in fact I would break all connections with that person
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:02   Link #2110
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The worst thing is, after telling her friend (Who is also a very close friend of mine) to go to hell, she ignored everyone for the rest of the day, and pretended that nothing happened the next day. Only to repeat this a few months later when we were discussing the show Charmed.

My Wiccan friend explained to me that there are actually 2 types of wicca, black witch, which is what you are probably thinking about, and white witch, which basically the use of 'magick' for good. I don't really understand all the details, but from what I've heard, it seems like a sensible belief that is far from devil worship.

Of course, this is just how I interpret it. Doesn't mean it's true.
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:10   Link #2111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
@Xrayz0rz I don't think much of a lot of Christian churches these days because they seem fake to say the least or hypocritical, some of them tell you to pay for your salvation/blessings/ which is wrong because it is like trying to put a price on a gift someone gave you, some churches preach extremist views which is also wrong. But that shouldn't be used to judge real Christians because they are not real Christians themselves.
No True Scotsman Fallacy. Upon what logical grounds do you discount these people as Christians just because you do not agree with their practices?

You know, I have this deja vu feeling that I've heard something like these from those of my acquaintances who are religious far too often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
The worst thing is, after telling her friend (Who is also a very close friend of mine) to go to hell, she ignored everyone for the rest of the day, and pretended that nothing happened the next day. Only to repeat this a few months later when we were discussing the show Charmed.

My Wiccan friend explained to me that there are actually 2 types of wicca, black witch, which is what you are probably thinking about, and white witch, which basically the use of 'magick' for good. I don't really understand all the details, but from what I've heard, it seems like a sensible belief that is far from devil worship.

Of course, this is just how I interpret it. Doesn't mean it's true.
This reminds me of a couple of ladies I knew in school back in my day. Ah, bad times, bad times.
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:22   Link #2112
Irenicus
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I think I've answered this before, but: I'm atheist; the not interested type. And that's the short of it.

Asked why, I'll just say I find other things in life far more important. And also that I hold not-so-secret hopes for immortality. Come on, medical science, I'll give you seventy extra years: you can do it!

Although, if the question isn't about whether I believe there's some sort of supernatural entities and afterlives or not (I don't), but rather if I'd like such supernatural entities and afterlives or not, the answer would be firmly on the "Yes please, with extra servings of elven maidens if you don't mind."

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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Well I would say the same thing if I thought one of my friends is doing something similar to devil worship, in fact I would break all connections with that person
Which is religious intolerance at its simplest.

...so yeah.

Bottom line: free, secular society means witches, devils, evil overlords, Baatezu, and even the thrice-damned infidels must be tolerated -- and that means tolerated, same bus same school same workplace same rights, no seperate but equal bullshit -- as long as they are good citizens living within the law. If God turns unbelievers into pillars of salt, God goes to jail for premeditated murder. And some smartass writer gets to make witty comments on it.
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:31   Link #2113
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I agree ^^

Now, I don't mean to offend anyone here, and will apologise if I do, but why is it that it is acceptable for christians to make be somewhat rude about athiests, but it is not acceptable for athiests to do the same to christians?
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:36   Link #2114
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Which is religious intolerance at its simplest.

...so yeah.
No need to be a christian to act like this.

For example, if somebody does something that "I" consider evil (given my own definition of what is evil or not), I will cut any connection that I have with that person.

I don't agree that I have to tolerate everything, even what i consider very bad, just to prove that I am Tolerant.

For a christian, it's the same, but his/her limits can have some roots in what the bible is saying. But I don't see that as something much different than me.
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:38   Link #2115
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I have no religion,but I just want to have one because I really don't want to tell others that I believe science when they ask me like this……
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Old 2009-09-27, 06:38   Link #2116
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When you say evil, so you mean morally evil (Thinking in an evil way), or actually evil (commiting an evil act)?
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Old 2009-09-27, 07:04   Link #2117
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And again....

Before this thread is dragged off-topic yet agian, please remember the actual topic, that is if you are religious or not.

Some of the recent discussion might be better suited in threads such as Creationism / Intelligent design for example.

It would also be a good time to remind posters of some of the general etiquette for posting here at AnimeSuki.
  • Do not insult or harass other members for their comments.
    Please remember: Do not take it so seriously that you end up in an argument with another forum member because they express a different viewpoint from yours. Discussion and good spirited banter is always welcome, but harassing people won’t be tolerated.
If you can't follow this simple rule then please don't post.
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Old 2009-09-27, 07:06   Link #2118
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Sorry... I did specify that I didn't mean to offend anyone...
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Old 2009-09-27, 07:22   Link #2119
Narona
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Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
When you say evil, so you mean morally evil (Thinking in an evil way), or actually evil (commiting an evil act)?
Both

commiting an evil act

For example, if I discover that somebody I know trick girls/boys in love. I will stop to hang out with that person. Tricking a girl/boy, cheating on somebody etc. is not considered as a crime here, still I don't tolerate that. I won't do any crusade against those people, I just don't want any kind of frienship with that kind of person.

Thinking in an evil way

Actually stopped to talk to somebody who once said that he would rape women if there was no law against it.

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Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
Sorry... I did specify that I didn't mean to offend anyone...
I don't think that Xris was talking about you. Just check the last few pages and you will actually see that the moderators had to moderate the thread again even after Manju's warning.
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:18   Link #2120
SeedFreedom
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
However this is all matter of belief and opinion so if you don't want to believe then I can't change your opinion and you cannot change mind so in the end we have to agree to disagree. To add to that you are all much older than me and have a lot more knowledge than me and for all I know you might be an expert at philosophy etc...
Thank you for the complement but i can assure you i am no where near a expert at philosophy or anything like that. I just have a deep interest in religion because it is something i really cant comprehend. My goal was never to try and "convert" anyone, and i'm sorry if that's how it came across.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Let's start with that. But when you think of all-powerful God, don't think of just some supernatural being with some supernatural power to bend random laws of physics when he wants to. Think much more, he's the one that governs the laws of physics. From the gravitational force, to the way elements bond with each other, even to the way your respiratory system continues work day or night and while you're sleeping. He's also the one that gives human a mind with the ability to discover God's creation and learn how some it works so that they may better their lives through medicine and science.
Your reasoning is god deserves our praise and worship because he is all powerful and responsible for our creation? Interesting. Like i said i do believe in some force creating the world, i just don't think he would take human form or expect us not to eat certain foods or require our prayers.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
All that and more is how you should think of God before you ask why should you praise him. If you assume such a God exists, then do you see why one would praise God?

Of course, you may think God is vain. But realize that even if he is vain, he's the only one with the right to be. Humans are not on equal term with God, and by all rights, he can do whatever he wants. God has no peer and there's not a single being in existence that has the right to judge him or even the power to put him on trial. Of course, humans can say anything they want about him, but that is only within what God allows them to do.

So if you want to know why one should praise God? The simplest answer I can give is because God, an all-powerful God, exists. And the reason why a person would not praise God is only because they don't believe God exists or they believe a being (or beings) which is closer to the level of humans that humans somehow can outwit or whatever.

That is why when someone brings up the tooth fairy, spaghetti monster, sky wizard, or even sleigh-riding Santa Claus, I feel they're missing the implication behind having a faith in God. What they're attacking is faith itself, and by showing a type of faith that would more readily appear to be futile, somehow that is supposed to invalidate a faith in God as well. I agree with that, it applies to religious beliefs as well. That is why someone who is raised as a Christian may not be recognized as a Christian in the sight of God if they're only doing what their families told them to do. A true believer would have to decide for himself at some point in life whether he truly believes in the Bible and God that has inspired that Bible. I believe the Bible is even more extreme in that you cannot go to heaven unless you belive in Jesus Christ and accept him as God who has atoned for all your sins, past, present, and future. No amount of good works or obedience to the law or even worship to God the Father will get you to heaven.

The way I accept that is, again, as an all-powerful God, he makes his own rule. We can accept or reject it, but we can't change it, only he can. I can accept it because I do realize my sinful nature and can understand why only the grace of God would save me. All God asks is for me to believe in the work he has done for my salvation.

Additionally, If I am to view the Bible as containing God's truth, I cannot think that I will only find things that I would like in the Bible and that I can easily understand everything and fit them all into my daily life. That is not how the truth works. The truth is the truth whether I like it or not, and many times, I may not understand the whole truth. Do you believe that your decision to not believe in God is out of your control? It is your decision, after all. Again that depends on how you view God. If you see God only as some being who happens to be able to make some unfair rule, then you'd rightly have a hard time in seeing what is prraise-worthy about God. However, if you see God as a being who has control over everything in this universe, lets you have free will, and loves you enough that he graciously allow some to be saved, then you would praise him as a believer. People might think it's unfair for those who never gets the chance to hear of God, but ultimately, he knows more about humans. And our judging him really has no use, and that is a truth I have come to accept for such an all-powerful being. Which is why a Christian would want to share the good news that they don't have to suffer in Hell for eternity, and all they have to do is to believe in Christ. Unfortunately, that's something that's probably most hated about Christianity. And for sure sometimes Christians may cross a line in doing so.
I do see a lot of good in religion. It brings people together and helps define a set of morals most people can agree on. But there is also alot about religion i don't like, which i wont go into. I just believe that if there was an all powerful god, he wouldn't allow many of the things that happen in the world to do so. For instance, just proof of his existence or proving the right path to god could end so many conflicts and must be relatively easy for him to do, but he doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Thank you for thanking me, I appreciate that.
1. This is not a "Fact".
2. The "fact": "Only God knows whether one will go to heaven or not."


Have you accepted "reality"? It is actually a matter quite similar to belief in God. They are both "beliefs". One is just more "tangible" than the other.


I did not say faith is proof. I believe that it would, *inevitably* in the end, *lead* to proof---considering that *every* human does have faith.
If you re-read my comment, i said some religions, which is a fact. Some do state the only path to god is through a specific savior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacos View Post
I have no religion,but I just want to have one because I really don't want to tell others that I believe science when they ask me like this……
One of the reasons i was so pissed that Obama was constantly questioned about his faith. No matter what it is, it should have no impact on him as a leader. If it does, it should be represented by his promises and actions.
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