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Old 2009-09-27, 13:08   Link #2121
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
I agree ^^

Now, I don't mean to offend anyone here, and will apologise if I do, but why is it that it is acceptable for christians to make be somewhat rude about athiests, but it is not acceptable for athiests to do the same to christians?
Social norms and conformity most likely.

It's the exact opposite where i live...
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Old 2009-09-27, 14:10   Link #2122
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
IIRC, Evolution isn't concerned with the origin of life itself (abiogenesis). It assumes that there's life going around already, and says things about how it changes itself.


The laws of thermodynamic aren't a problem. Plenty of energy going around to feed life, after all (sunlight and volcanoes). You might as well wonder why there are clouds, instead of the water staying put in the ocean.
Correct, but the idea behind evolution can be extrapolated backward. If a certain molecule could perform certain chemical reactions more effectively and quickly at replicating that molecule, then that molecule would exist in greater quantities. A change in that process to make the process even faster/more efficient would result in the new process becoming greater in number than the old. The question is why things scaled up in the manner that they did. Even with an abundance of energy, it is curious that things built upward rather than outward.

Of course, much of the difficulty in accepting all of that has more to do with the fact that we aren't able to directly observe such "building" take place before our very eyes. We can observe minor examples of evolution, and we can see evidence for evolution, but being unable to observe single-celled organisms making the step to becoming multi-cellular organisms, for example, makes it difficult to understand how or why those things occurred. The evidence that they occurred is all there and conclusive, of course; I suppose the big question is why it happened, what special factors were at play, and why it doesn't seem to happen more often and/or in more places around the universe.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not so sure. The Christian thing is to love your neighbour... but also to believe he deserves to suffer in hell for all eternity if he's an infidel. So, yeah.
A minor quibble with this statement - the Christian thing to do is to love your neighbor, and believe that God will make him suffer in hell for not believing in God. Whether the neighbor deserves to suffer or not is a call of judgment, and humans are not supposed to judge one another. The trouble is that it's impossible to go through life without making judgments, and more to the point, it seems to me that many people don't study or understand their religion well enough to appreciate the deeper, purer meanings.

"You will suffer in hell unless you believe in God, by God's will" - a statement that reveals the effort to convert others is one almost of sympathy - becomes "unless you believe in God, you deserve to suffer in hell (because you are inferior/an infidel/something undesirable" which is a judgment call. People identify with their religion and it becomes a source of pride: you are special and unique (perhaps better) because you are a member of this religion. They take some of the teachings without balancing them by a fuller understanding, resulting in a tribe-like mentality. When confronted by other religions and strong beliefs, conflict is likely to arise not because the religion demands it, but because the followers feel threatened and/or not properly recognized and respected for what they're identifying with.
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Old 2009-09-27, 14:42   Link #2123
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Correct, but the idea behind evolution can be extrapolated backward. If a certain molecule could perform certain chemical reactions more effectively and quickly at replicating that molecule, then that molecule would exist in greater quantities. A change in that process to make the process even faster/more efficient would result in the new process becoming greater in number than the old. The question is why things scaled up in the manner that they did. Even with an abundance of energy, it is curious that things built upward rather than outward.

Of course, much of the difficulty in accepting all of that has more to do with the fact that we aren't able to directly observe such "building" take place before our very eyes. We can observe minor examples of evolution, and we can see evidence for evolution, but being unable to observe single-celled organisms making the step to becoming multi-cellular organisms, for example, makes it difficult to understand how or why those things occurred. The evidence that they occurred is all there and conclusive, of course; I suppose the big question is why it happened, what special factors were at play, and why it doesn't seem to happen more often and/or in more places around the universe.
Yes. IIRC, we're not all that sure what the environment of the first bits of proto-life was like. And everywhere we look that might be welcoming to life, well, there is life. Using whatever resources life likes, and leaving none for non-life trying to make the jump.

Quote:
A minor quibble with this statement - the Christian thing to do is to love your neighbor, and believe that God will make him suffer in hell for not believing in God. Whether the neighbor deserves to suffer or not is a call of judgment, and humans are not supposed to judge one another. The trouble is that it's impossible to go through life without making judgments, and more to the point, it seems to me that many people don't study or understand their religion well enough to appreciate the deeper, purer meanings.

"You will suffer in hell unless you believe in God, by God's will" - a statement that reveals the effort to convert others is one almost of sympathy - becomes "unless you believe in God, you deserve to suffer in hell (because you are inferior/an infidel/something undesirable" which is a judgment call. People identify with their religion and it becomes a source of pride: you are special and unique (perhaps better) because you are a member of this religion. They take some of the teachings without balancing them by a fuller understanding, resulting in a tribe-like mentality. When confronted by other religions and strong beliefs, conflict is likely to arise not because the religion demands it, but because the followers feel threatened and/or not properly recognized and respected for what they're identifying with.
Isn't God supposed to be just, though? Therefore, if you get sent to Hell, it's because you deserve it. Barring some kind of honest mistake on God's part, or maybe some unsurmountable - for Him - obstacle to not sending you to hell, both of which aren't supposed to be possible.
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Old 2009-09-27, 16:16   Link #2124
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Isn't God supposed to be just, though? Therefore, if you get sent to Hell, it's because you deserve it. Barring some kind of honest mistake on God's part, or maybe some unsurmountable - for Him - obstacle to not sending you to hell, both of which aren't supposed to be possible.
I always felt that the concept of being sent to Hell for not being a believer was something thrown into the "commercialized form" of the religion. The concept of heaven is one thing, but the threat of not believing... it's just too much of a carrot-and-stick scenario; it seems like something contrived to make people feel that they have to convert or else they'll suffer consequences. I can't think of many other religions that have such a clause in them.


At its core, understanding God's motives and God's justice is an interesting concept. We all have an idea of what justice is, but can we expect to understand God's motives and God's version of justice?

Think about a time when you felt judgmental about something and, upon learning some new information, changed stances on it. I think that everyone either has encountered or will encounter such a scenario in their life, and likely much more than just once. We are very limited in our knowledge of what's going on unless it is directly around us. God is supposedly omnipotent, and this is where the idea that everything happens for a reason comes from - that we may only see a small bit of something that's going on, but that God (who is able to see everything) has things happen for a specific reason. Such thinking basically states that life is like a giant Rube Goldberg machine, and we're all just tiny parts that may pass the ball along, unaware of what the end result is.

Thus, if it sounds unfair or unjust to you that people should get sent to Hell for not believing in God, then it could be that you're not understanding the reason why it should happen and/or God's justice.

(I don't find the idea very just, myself, and it's one of the major beliefs of Christianity that rubs me the wrong way.)
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Old 2009-09-27, 16:31   Link #2125
LeoXiao
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I believe in God of some sort, but I don't think "he" is what we would call perfect. I think that God encompasses the entire universe and it's laws, and to follow the laws of the universe is therefore also following God's laws. Since there is suffering still, I don't think anybody can say God is perfect, given that "perfect" means that suffering and death don't exist. With regard to idea that "not believing in God=going to Hell," I think that is a major oversimplification on the part of the religions and the people who control them. I think that it means that people who don't follow universal laws (from jumping off a cliff thinking you can fly, to killing others) have a harder time in life and bring more suffering upon themselves. The people who invented the "no God=Hell" statement were most likely trying to make people afraid by using the name of God to control them.
Quote:
Actually stopped to talk to somebody who once said that he would rape women if there was no law against it.
Is that the only reason why you stopped talking to him? Did he have anything redeemable in him that you may have benefited from, despite his statement about rape?

Last edited by LeoXiao; 2009-09-27 at 16:44.
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Old 2009-09-27, 16:33   Link #2126
monster
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Your reasoning is god deserves our praise and worship because he is all powerful and responsible for our creation? Interesting. Like i said i do believe in some force creating the world, i just don't think he would take human form or expect us not to eat certain foods or require our prayers.



I do see a lot of good in religion. It brings people together and helps define a set of morals most people can agree on. But there is also alot about religion i don't like, which i wont go into. I just believe that if there was an all powerful god, he wouldn't allow many of the things that happen in the world to do so. For instance, just proof of his existence or proving the right path to god could end so many conflicts and must be relatively easy for him to do, but he doesn't.
I believe that's the problem, we humans would like to impose our will on God and think he should do this and shouldn't be like that, etc. But God has no need to do as we pleased.
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Isn't God supposed to be just, though? Therefore, if you get sent to Hell, it's because you deserve it. Barring some kind of honest mistake on God's part, or maybe some unsurmountable - for Him - obstacle to not sending you to hell, both of which aren't supposed to be possible.
Do realize that God has judged all humans to have sinned, that includes believers. So all humans do deserve to go to Hell. The only thing that saves the believers is God's grace which they receive through faith. It does not make believers any less deserving to go to Hell, it only saves them from what they deserve.

That only serves to reinforce the command to love your neigbor. Love others because God first loved and spread the good news so that others, no more or less deserving to go to Hell, may also be saved from it.
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Old 2009-09-27, 16:35   Link #2127
Anh_Minh
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I'm not trying to argue the fairness of God - that'd be giving Him, and our knowledge of Him and His ways, too much credit, from my atheist point of view.

If you'll recall, this particular line of discussion started with wondering whether it was Christian to hate the unbelievers. It is my contention that it could be - since to be Christian is to believe it's just that unbelievers get sent to Hell. Not only that, they're supposed to celebrate the fact.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
I believe that's the problem, we humans would like to impose our will on God and think he should do this and shouldn't be like that, etc. But God has no need to do as we pleased. Do realize that God has judged all humans to have sinned, that includes believers. So all humans do deserve to go to Hell. The only thing that saves the believers is God's grace which they receive through faith. It does not make believers any less deserving to go to Hell, it only saves them from what they deserve.

That only serves to reinforce the command to love your neigbor. Love others because God first loved and spread the good news so that others, no more or less deserving to go to Hell, may also be saved from it.
You're not exactly endearing Him to me, there. Sure, He has the power to do whatever he wants. Including giving babies a lethal, incurable disease from birth, and then send them to hell. Am I supposed to find it fair because He does?
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Old 2009-09-27, 16:45   Link #2128
monster
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're not exactly endearing Him to me, there. Sure, He has the power to do whatever he wants. Including giving babies a lethal, incurable disease from birth, and then send them to hell. Am I supposed to find it fair because He does?
I'm just saying that hating unbelievers is not what a Christian should do.
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:06   Link #2129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If you'll recall, this particular line of discussion started with wondering whether it was Christian to hate the unbelievers. It is my contention that it could be - since to be Christian is to believe it's just that unbelievers get sent to Hell. Not only that, they're supposed to celebrate the fact.
Where was it stated anywhere that we should celebrate our fellow man is being sent to hell? I thought we were supposed to mourn such things as the person is feeling eternal damnation or maybe that was just a typo

Quote:
You're not exactly endearing Him to me, there. Sure, He has the power to do whatever he wants. Including giving babies a lethal, incurable disease from birth, and then send them to hell. Am I supposed to find it fair because He does?
Babies aren't judged by the same standards of a person capable to decide and make their own opinion about the world, babies have no understanding of right and wrong and they are pure until their parents teach them to do bad things and even then they are not punishable because they don't know its wrong. That is why God said we should be pure like children, also who says it is God that gives all diseases did you forget that there is a being that we also believe exists called the devil that does unspeakable evils.
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:15   Link #2130
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Hm... I never got that.
Because he could, God created a species that, supposedly, is superior to his other creations. Because he loves that species, he gave it a free will, and as a result, it can never meet his standards. Because of that, the species now deserves to go to Hell. But since he still loves the species, God will safe a few - but only those who can believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, and those who are "lucky" enough to die before they can reach a certain age and/or get the oppurtunity to ponder the existence of God.
Hum. I think if such a God exists, the devil can't be all that worse.
And I'm not even going into such interesting philosophical questions as whether humans really possess more of a "free will" than other species.
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:10   Link #2131
Solace
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Ok, this thread has now received two warnings about behavior. Here's the third. There will be no more warnings - anyone who cannot act in a civil manner when posting in this topic will be dealt with accordingly.

If you can't handle it, don't post in this thread.

Thread reopened.
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Last edited by Solace; 2009-09-27 at 23:22. Reason: Because.
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Old 2009-09-28, 08:42   Link #2132
Cipher
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Your reasoning is god deserves our praise and worship because he is all powerful and responsible for our creation? Interesting. Like i said i do believe in some force creating the world, i just don't think he would take human form or expect us not to eat certain foods or require our prayers
.

You have a good point. But this can be viewed in the way of *not* as a requirement for those in doubt but an *extra* discipline for those who, with enough confidence, want to lead a more *disciplined* life.

I believe *discipline* creates better societies and, thus, adding greater "good points" for those doing them. For example, the drinking of alcohol and the, no offense, "slutty" clothing. This may seem too conservative to you but I believe it would to help develop a more *ordered* society.

From what I've understood from my own religion, our *deeds* are translated into "good points" and "bad points" that would determine our fate.


Quote:
I do see a lot of good in religion. It brings people together and helps define a set of morals most people can agree on. But there is also alot about religion i don't like, which i wont go into. I just believe that if there was an all powerful god, he wouldn't allow many of the things that happen in the world to do so. For instance, just proof of his existence or proving the right path to god could end so many conflicts and must be relatively easy for him to do, but he doesn't.
My belief in God involves my belief in his "complexities". I can only guess that it would be too difficult for humans to reason. From there, I can only, perhaps, rely on faith. We are told to never try to create an image of him or to create theoretical reasons of his actions...as it might lead to *more* confusion. And those *confusions* are what I believe that created your *stereotypes*.

Please blame the people, not the religions.They're not babies anymore that they would need to be *SO* dependent on sets of beliefs.

Quote:
If you re-read my comment, i said some religions, which is a fact. Some do state the only path to god is through a specific savior.
Forgive me, I didn't notice you were referring to religions in general. But I do suggest learning more about *these* religions and their complexities before assuming *too-soon*. You might discover something interesting.

Quote:
One of the reasons i was so pissed that Obama was constantly questioned about his faith. No matter what it is, it should have no impact on him as a leader. If it does, it should be represented by his promises and actions.
In the end, it is the person that defines himself and not the religion---a point I'm trying to make.

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-28 at 08:57.
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Old 2009-09-28, 08:47   Link #2133
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Isn't God supposed to be just, though? Therefore, if you get sent to Hell, it's because you deserve it. Barring some kind of honest mistake on God's part, or maybe some unsurmountable - for Him - obstacle to not sending you to hell, both of which aren't supposed to be possible.
I have my problems with accepting the idea of an infinite punishment for a necessarily finite amount of wrongdoing as "just".
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Old 2009-09-28, 09:01   Link #2134
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
I have my problems with accepting the idea of an infinite punishment for a necessarily finite amount of wrongdoing as "just".
And what religion says an infinite punishment? Mine, in comparison, is on ratio of level of wrongdoing = time and level of punishment. Murder being a few million years or so...
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Old 2009-09-28, 09:06   Link #2135
Narona
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
This is actually why we're discussing "humans having original 'goodness'".
That part of the discussion is a bit old, but I admit to have some difficulties to believe that most humans are born "good" (but well, it's given my own definition of "good"). If it was the case, we would not need [so many] rules and laws to maintain the order and equality.

I tend to believe that if there was no rules and laws, most humans would do a lot of wrong things without even thinking about what they're doing, or by pure evilness.

So I tend to believe that originally, to make believe that God will punish those who did bad things was to scare them and so prevent humans to do bad things

For example, I think most of the Commandments are good advice/rules. So I think it helped humans to stay on the good way.

Anyway, on another topic, I know some people who believe that there is a god, but reject the idea of a religious society/group. Because they believe that a lot of things those religious say is not from God, but from people who use the name of God (or twist what god said) to make people do many things (good things, but sometimes bad thing, or just to control them the way they want). So, for example, they see the Pope as a mere human.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-09-28 at 09:21.
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Old 2009-09-28, 09:26   Link #2136
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
That part of the discussion is a bit old, but I admit to have some difficulties to believe that most/all humans are born "good" (but well, it's given my own definition of "good"). If it was the case, we would not need [so many] rules and laws to maintain the order and equality.

I tend to believe that if there was no rules and laws, most humans would do a lot of wrong things without even thinking about what they're doing, or by pure evilness.

So I tend to believe that originally, to make believe that God will punish those who did bad things was to scare them and so prevent humans to do bad things.

For example, I think most of the Commandments are good advice/rules. So I think it helped humans to stay on the good way.

Anyway, on another topic, I know some people who believe that there is a god, but reject the idea of a religious society/group. Because they believe that a lot of things those religious say is not from God, but from people who use the name of God (or twist what god said) to make people do many things (good things, but sometimes bad thing, or just to control them the way they want). So, for example, they see the Pope as a mere human.
Good points but lets take the "weighing of positives vs. negatives" of logic. We could say that evil is also "natural" for humans(say, an original "evil?)---due to the tendency of course. But in comparison to the "natural" good of humanity, the evil is evidently inferior. I say evidently because which is more obvious of the world? complete destruction? no. complete harmony? no. More destruction than harmony? No. More harmony than destruction? yes. This is what I mean by having two but weighing them both based on power. Although, your more than welcome to challenge me on this.
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Old 2009-09-28, 09:32   Link #2137
Narona
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Good points but lets take the "weighing of positives vs. negatives" of logic. We could say that evil is also "natural" for humans(say, an original "evil?)---due to the tendency of course. But in comparison to the "natural" good of humanity, the evil is evidently inferior. I say evidently because which is more obvious of the world? complete destruction? no. complete harmony? no. More destruction than harmony? No. More harmony than destruction? yes. This is what I mean by having two but weighing them both based on power. Although, your more than welcome to challenge me on this.
I see it that way, we are animals, and like all animals we are born with animal/gregarious instincts. One of them is to protect themselves from predators, and to perpetuate the species (and beside that, animals have not our same sense of morals, but seems not as vicious as humans)

But humans have no predator that could match them, which make them powerful so their sol predator is themselves.

Given that, I believe that humans created rules and a good moral to "actually" try to perpetuate the species, because I tend to believe that if it was not the case, humans will destruct themselves by fighting against each other.

As said Plaute, Homo Homini Lupus...

Now god could have been created to scare humans, and so to maintain an order, and no humans was able to verify if god truly exists, so by default they were scared by it.
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Old 2009-09-28, 10:15   Link #2138
Narona
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And please don't describe God as "created". You may say created in a literal and practical sense, but *that* way offends me and most likely other theists.
Sorry, i didn't mean to offend you. See it as a personal assumption of what it could be (i used "could"), I'm actually not defending my point of view. I have no possibilities to verify if god exists or not, so I'll not come saying that "god doesn't exist".

I just wonder some things, like the massacres and wars due to religion. For example, what I often wonder is "Was it because of god (whether he exists or not), or because some evil people used the name of God to control people?". If God exists, are we not the only ones who decided how he is, and what he does? Maybe there is a God, but completely different from the image that humans have about him beside that he created us?"

That the kind of questions I wonder.

And I apologize again if I offended you

Quote:
What do you think of love? Love of parent to child, love of child to parent, love of lovers, love of siblings, love of friends? Does it also originate from social norms originating from religion? Or is it more instinctual necessary for evolution? Or is it more simple than that?
I think there are some kinds of love that are instinctive. When I look at many animals, mothers care for their children (at least for a certain period of time). Also, when I watch that documentaries about the Meercats, i can see that every meercat of the same group tend to care for each other, BUT it happens that there are problems between them. And they seem to have some rules, given that when one of them is for example, rebelling, he may be forced to leave the group.

About "love" that goes beyond the instinctive thought of perpetuating the species, for example, the "love" between two persons is something that seems to exist in some animals like the Macaws that are monogamous, and in love with their partner.

So I don't really know, Humans seem to be a mix of a lot of forms of love. There are humans who seek love as macaws (XD) but some other who, like some other animals, just don't have that link between each other (having sex / reproducing, and that's all) etc etc.


Now I tend to think humans are a bit different than most animals. They question themselves a lot, and modify the rules and laws of their society. Maybe because they are smarter than other animals? Or maybe something else? I don't know. What i know, is that they seem way more dangerous than any other animals because of their capabilities. (sorry if it offend some people >.<)

For example, while other animals seem to respect some kind of rules that they never question, humans question everything.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-09-28 at 10:37.
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Old 2009-09-28, 10:45   Link #2139
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I just wonder some things, like the massacres and wars due to religion. For example, what I often wonder is "Was it because of god (whether he exists or not), or because some evil people used the name of God to control people?". If God exists, are we not the only one who decided how he is, and what he does? Maybe there is a God, but completely different from the image that humans have about him beside that he created us?"

That the kind of questions I wonder.

And I apologize again if I offended you
You shouldn't worry, in fact, I should not have even said that your words were offenses. It is already my full-knowing that we'd inevitably "accidentally" cross each others' ethnicity, we should just ignore it and rely more on our understanding of each other.

Your views of God seem rational, though I'd rather you look at God only and not the resulting society. There are, of course, theist-successful societies as well. We just don't know the ratios in it.

I, on the other hand, believe that religions do more *positive* than negative. It has, as you've stated, created "proper" morality( or did you say that?, sorry, I forgot.)


Quote:
I think there are some kinds of love that are instinctive. When I look at many animals, mothers care for their children (at least for a certain period of time). Also, when I watch that documentaries about the Meercats, i can see that every meercat of the same group tend to care for each other, BUT it happens that there are problems between them. And they seem to have some rules, given that when one of them is for example, rebelling, he may be forced to leave the group.
It seems like your not letting me "create" that border of humanity/"animals". Is there no difference between of love between "animals" and love between humans?



Quote:
Now I tend to think humans are a bit different than most animals. They question themselves a lot, and modify the rules and laws of their society. Maybe because they are smarter than other animals? Or maybe something else? I don't know. What i know, is that they seem way more dangerous than any other animals because of their capabilities. (sorry if it offend some people >.<)

For example, while other animals seem to respect some kind of rules that they never question, humans question everything.
Perhaps we could also learn something from "animals". Maybe we should also respect a rule we should not question?
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Old 2009-09-28, 10:54   Link #2140
kenjiharima
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Seriously Iam a Christian.

Spoiler for for lolz:


Also imho. Believe in what you have to believe in, it's freewill. We all need to respect that.
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