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Old 2010-09-29, 20:22   Link #2861
EnchantingPrincess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
It's pretty hard to disapprove of evidence that doesn't exist
A lot of (religious)people would disaprove of you saying there are no evidence But I guess something you can see with you're own to eyes is more believable than a persons word.
But what explains so many people coming up with the same conclusion? They all believe in the same divine being.
And don't say "imagination" (I mean seriously there can be a person with no imagination out there and couldn't think up of the simpilist things and claim he/she believes in God) But I am only trying to get out a point for religious people I am not trying to argue, its how they may see it. I know someone may try to argue with me about this
Its always good to know about both sides of relgion and what people say Reality/Facts...??
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:02   Link #2862
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I agree with SweetPrincess on this, that a person does not need an imagination to believe in a religion. Like how Constatine was constantly being converted with many signs of Christianity in his dreams without him fully imagining it. While he was preparing to march against Maxentius. But those were merely signs that people just followed.

Now with the technology we have, many people do not believe in signs like how they did back then... Well sometimes they did on occasions. But with science revealing all sorts of things to us, its pretty hard for us to fully believe that one thing is either a miracle, or a mere coicidence. So thats probably why there is alot of Atheist/Angotisct people around?

@ChainLegacy

I agree when some people who have believed in Religion for to long disclose anything you say that is not involving around it (but involves the same subject). Sometimes, a certain town is fully converted to a certain religion, and when there is a Atheist like me. They will be stricly hated by the people living in the town, for he/she is "cursed" or whatever they say...
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:06   Link #2863
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPrincess View Post
A lot of (religious)people would disaprove of you saying there are no evidence But I guess something you can see with you're own to eyes is more believable than a persons word.
But what explains so many people coming up with the same conclusion? They all believe in the same divine being.
And don't say "imagination" (I mean seriously there can be a person with no imagination out there and couldn't think up of the simpilist things and claim he/she believes in God) But I am only trying to get out a point for religious people I am not trying to argue, its how they may see it. I know someone may try to argue with me about this
Its always good to know about both sides of relgion and what people say Reality/Facts...??
Institutionalization.

Gather a bunch of the religious folks, toss a rock in their midst, and chances are the unlucky sod you just nailed was born and raised in that environment. They would have been socialized from the very beginning to accept the beliefs and values of that religion as their own, and the belief they have accepted would be continually affirmed through interaction with people coming from the same environment. This, incidentally, is also why it's so hard for people to break away from their faith; you are giving up not only your entire belief system, but also the goodwill of friends and even family.

To paraphrase Lenin, something told often enough, eventually becomes the truth to those who listen.
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:14   Link #2864
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
*Snip*
Elaborating on this, the nature of that institutionalization contributes a great deal to the atheist/agnostic/antitheist sector as well. We are living in a generation now where increasing numbers of people are raised in an atheist (etc.) environment, with all the consequences Ascaloth described above.

Further, many religious institutions that are used to being in a position of authority wish to continue to assert said authority to the point of feeling the need to condemn other useful tools for explaining the world: I speak here not just of the sciences, but also of the arts. Someone raised in an environment where religion and logic are presented as mutually exclusive is going to have a hard time believing something else, and will likely choose one to the exclusion of the other.

For some, they choose the religious sphere. For others, they choose the secular.
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:22   Link #2865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Elaborating on this, the nature of that institutionalization contributes a great deal to the atheist/agnostic/antitheist sector as well. Many religious institutions that are used to being in a position of authority wish to continue to assert said authority to the point of feeling the need to condemn other useful tools for explaining the world: I speak here not just of the sciences, but also of the arts. Someone raised in an environment where religion and logic are presented as mutually exclusive is going to have a hard time believing something else, and will likely choose one to the exclusion of the other.

For some, they choose the religious sphere. For others, they choose the secular.
In my experience of secular Australia, the church holds little authority, and I see hardly any institutionalisation (excluding cults). People in church are there because they want to be, not because they are forced to be or they have been 'conditioned.' Church attendance numbers are in freefall and many people that supposedly pertain to religion do not attend church at all.
The point is, there is less and less pressure for someone to remain in church/ a religion. Its the status quo for youths to rebel from their 'conservative' parents (the hippie gen aren't too conservative ). In fact there is an overwhelming pressure to become 'institutionalised' into the herd of atheists/agnostics of that demographic. Just go to any university I don't know how different things are in America...i've heard its a lot more religious then here but i could be wrong.
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:28   Link #2866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna91 View Post
In my experience of secular Australia, the church holds little authority, and I see hardly any institutionalisation (excluding cults). People in church are there because they want to be, not because they are forced to be or they have been 'conditioned.' Church attendance numbers are in freefall and many people that supposedly pertain to religion do not attend church at all.
The point is, there is less and less pressure for someone to remain in church/ a religion. Its the status quo for youths to rebel from their 'conservative' parents (the hippie gen aren't too conservative ). In fact there is an overwhelming pressure to become 'institutionalised' into the herd of atheists/agnostics of that demographic. Just go to any university I don't know how different things are in America...i've heard its a lot more religious then here but i could be wrong.
Sometimes theres certain towns that have people forced to go to Churches, or something bad will happen. But I think its a very small thing since religion is not stressed upon people like how back then, if you don't believe in a religion that your country believes in. Your a satanist worshipper, or something close to that. But that is my view of what certain churches that are "over-religious" do, either way, Australia is basically lucky in this term, since as said. There is some "forcing religious people" in the U.S..... Still... It is a small number, but very scary to live in that town
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:35   Link #2867
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You should probably flag a number of small towns in Texas, Utah, and many other states as "best to not settle down in" unless you're fine with going through the motions with the local version of "religion".
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:54   Link #2868
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna91 View Post
In my experience of secular Australia, the church holds little authority, and I see hardly any institutionalisation (excluding cults). People in church are there because they want to be, not because they are forced to be or they have been 'conditioned.' Church attendance numbers are in freefall and many people that supposedly pertain to religion do not attend church at all.
The point is, there is less and less pressure for someone to remain in church/ a religion. Its the status quo for youths to rebel from their 'conservative' parents (the hippie gen aren't too conservative ). In fact there is an overwhelming pressure to become 'institutionalised' into the herd of atheists/agnostics of that demographic. Just go to any university I don't know how different things are in America...i've heard its a lot more religious then here but i could be wrong.
Ah, here's the catch. Have you asked these people why they want to be in church? Have you, perhaps, asked them when they first started going to church? You may also want to ask them how much of an influence the church has had in their lives, from the very beginning.

The best form of socialization is the kind you never even realized has influenced you.

You do have a point about universities though; these are usually one of the bastions of liberalism in any society. Socialization does indeed work both ways, anywhere, and it's just as plausible that the increasing trend of liberal thought (and by association the rejection of conservative and religious ideology) in the youth of modern societies has its causes in the liberal socialization of university life, especially given the increasing overall education level of young people in these days.

It's a distinct possibility that the rise of fundamentalism in modern day religion, is a reaction and rejection of liberal values by conservatively-minded individuals, just as it was with regards to the reaction and rejection of the conservative and religious values of their parents by many young people today. Such is the story of human history.
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Old 2010-09-29, 23:02   Link #2869
james0246
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This is getting very close to being off-topic again. Once more, this is not a thread to discussion the validation of Religion. (Take such conversations to PM.) This is the thread to discus one's anecdotal personal beliefs.

Last edited by james0246; 2010-09-29 at 23:31.
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Old 2010-09-30, 16:54   Link #2870
erneiz_hyde
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I am curious after I read this. Is there any American-Muslims in this forum here?

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...ort/index.html

At first I was like "isn't it possible this is all their sophisticated way to gain the authorities' trust?". But then again, I decided to give it a rest. Here's, a little mind-opener about what we have been doing to them Moslems:
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20..._by_Nayzak.swf
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Old 2010-10-01, 03:01   Link #2871
Haak
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Eeeehhh.

I'm not sure how bad Islamaphobia is in America but I can't help but feel it's a little bit of an exageration, that.
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Old 2010-10-01, 21:30   Link #2872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Eeeehhh.

I'm not sure how bad Islamaphobia is in America but I can't help but feel it's a little bit of an exageration, that.
I sorta agree... I think they are just exaggerating this a little bit to much... If they are resulting to that...
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Old 2010-10-01, 23:50   Link #2873
Sing4ever9
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Eeeehhh.

I'm not sure how bad Islamaphobia is in America but I can't help but feel it's a little bit of an exageration, that.
Actually, where I live at least, it's not that bad. In fact, I know two Muslims at my school and am friends with one of them.
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Old 2010-10-02, 00:11   Link #2874
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I go to church so I am a christian, but I do have some Muslim beliefs
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Old 2010-10-03, 13:28   Link #2875
Cipher
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I go to church so I am a christian, but I do have some Muslim beliefs
Huh? Which *Islamic* beliefs?
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Old 2010-10-03, 17:54   Link #2876
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Huh? Which *Islamic* beliefs?
Regarding the fact that eating meat is bad and a few other things
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Old 2010-10-03, 18:29   Link #2877
Hooves
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
Regarding the fact that eating meat is bad and a few other things
Well, meat is bad in someways because you kill animals to get meat. So being a vegetarian isnt bad sometimes wait thats an Islamic belief? I never knew that.

I think I'm becoming an Agnostic now.. Since I'm starting to believe "some" facts about religion, but its only a small bit.
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Old 2010-10-04, 04:48   Link #2878
orologio
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I'm an agnostic, but a Christian too.
I do not go to the church every sunday.
But now, more than ever before, i think i should know more about my religion.
It's a little difficult to explain.
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Old 2010-10-04, 05:59   Link #2879
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No real religion but i find the beliefs of Taoism and Buddhism fitting for what i would find believable (note this is not the localised form of either religion with a lot of deities).

Buddhism at its simplest is cause and effect with the actor being a natural non-intelligent force called karma. An effect of this is the religion's stand on permanence, mainly it does not exist. It has no mono or permanent gods. Gods use up their karma and get reincarnated, same with ghosts and their karma. Buddha statues aren't needed at all.

In real life circumstances, simple cause and effect occurs when you objectively think about it. For example, why does everyone not help you when you need it? Probably because you were arrogant when you thought you were at the top of the world. Why did so many insects appear in your home? Probably because you killed their predators such as lizards and spiders as they look ugly.

Buddhism expands on this principle to the afterlife. A karmic debt you occur in a previous life affects you in the current or future life, so even if you do a good deed but you're not a buddhist, you still get positive karma. Why do some meetings happen? Because it is the bond between 2 beings from their earlier lives pulling them together. At the same time, the actions you take in the current life will roll down to your next if it does not take effect this life.

Taoism at its simpliest points to the principle of duality, where all things have their opposite. It expands on this in pointing out that the opposites are required by each other. Neither is correct or incorrect, merely opposite. The idea is to recognise the distincts between and seek the balance between them. Too much of one side will result in negatives of severity that depends on the imbalance.

An easy example is a diet. Too little vitamins and you have scurvy, etc. Too much and you have hypervitaminosis. A more interesting example would be men and women. Both need each other and both have some of each other's charateristics but largely different. When in balance both are happy, when out of balance quarrels ensue.
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Old 2011-01-17, 19:53   Link #2880
Tyr
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Atheist. I never found myself believing in religion. I tried, i tried. I never pulled it off.
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