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Old 2011-07-01, 19:00   Link #3221
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Spoiler for bordering on a debate:
I didn't say it was exclusive to religion. I said it wasn't universal, and it isn't. As in, plenty of people, religious or not, aren't like that. Therefore, if someone wakes you up by going door to door to tell you about Jesus (or, I don't know, his pokemon collection), it's not because of human nature. It's because he's an ass.
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Old 2011-07-01, 20:27   Link #3222
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I didn't say it was exclusive to religion. I said it wasn't universal, and it isn't. As in, plenty of people, religious or not, aren't like that. Therefore, if someone wakes you up by going door to door to tell you about Jesus (or, I don't know, his pokemon collection), it's not because of human nature. It's because he's an ass.
If someone knocked on my door to tell me about their pokemon collection, I'd probably adopt more of a WTF expression than an angry one.
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Old 2011-07-01, 20:41   Link #3223
Anh_Minh
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If someone wakes me up by going door to door, it'd better be a hot girl to tell me about the impending end of the world and how she wants to enjoy the last few hours with me. (See? I can take religious talk...)
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Old 2011-07-01, 20:46   Link #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If someone wakes me up by going door to door, it'd better be a hot girl to tell me about the impending end of the world and how she wants to enjoy the last few hours with me. (See? I can take religious talk...)
Unfortunately, even if that does happen, the most likely result is that your wallet gets emptied out. >.>

Basically the same thing, except hotness
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Old 2011-07-01, 21:04   Link #3225
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There's no law that says I have to answer my door. I don't care how hot she is, if she's a bible thumper, she's staying outside and I'm going back to whatever it was that I was doing.
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Old 2011-07-01, 23:04   Link #3226
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I don't know what I am honestly. I don't believe life was created by a combustion of energy, and I don't believe life was created on the spot instantly. SomeTHING created life I just don't know what. But I do believe that the elements to start it were laid and then they developed to what it is today. So maybe a combination of creationism and the big bang?

I don't believe in one powerful being nor several powerful beings. But, I do think that there was a creator. Of some kind. I don't believe in heaven or hell I think those are tools to pursuade people to lead there lives better. And in some cases pursuade to follow one's religion. I've had many people give me the ol' "well think of it this way, if you're a christian and god is real than you'll go to heaven, but if he's not then you'll just die. So why not? It's a win-win". I think there's SOME kind of afterlife just not the clouds and harps that people see. I don't believe in church. I've had terrible expierances with them. Usually they are too controlling or greedy or untrustworthy. There are many occurances now and in the past where churches have abbused their power. This just adds to my distrust. Also I don't feel comfortable with other people while that subject is present.

I've read some of the bible/tora/ect its all the same to me. It makes me angry that people base their whole lives and principals on these books. Yes some of the messages in them are good but you have life for a reason. To live it.

And unlike almost all people i dont blindly follow the commands of a religion like a zombie. I'll believe what I want to believe, and know one will tell me otherwise. I have no problem with the gay community, yet every christian in the usa want's to go around and write insulting signs. When is that being a good person? I've been told that christians are accepting and nice people. Not in my experiances. And their attitude towards abortians? Yea, that'll stop it. Ignorant yelling and violence. And besides, imo abortians arn't the right thing to do. But its an action that must be taken in some situations. Honestly did you ever see someone walk out of an abortion clinic with a smile on their face? That doesn't mean they should be banned though. Adding on I don't like how everyone goes around calling everyone else a "sinner" or that their going to hell. What an inhuman thing to say.

I myself am a good person. I do good things. I say good things. I like good people. I love a select few. Seeing people act this way over a title is silly. Call me what you want to, but......I am who I am.
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Old 2011-07-02, 08:53   Link #3227
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Spoiler for bordering on a debate:


I think people need to start seeing each other as what they are, not by what religion is behind them or the lack thereof, and generalizing them that way. The fact is that there are good people in every faith.

I've heard though that atheists outside of Europe still have to hide their atheism, even in the USA, so I understand if some people are bitter towards religion and have the need to vent this somewhere like the internet.
The problem isn't atheists or religious people. It's people who believe in something too radically, and fall prey to the idea that those who do so differently are "evil". Religious fanatics are obviously one obvious group. But equally I'm sure we've all met some socialists or environmentalists who are similiarly annoying.

In fact I see little difference between a radical socialist, environmentalist or christian, they're just coming to the same destination from different directions. They're all equally capable of irrationality in defense of their beliefs. When people stop being able to see the good in people with different opinions from themselves we get this. The problem is when ideoligical conflicts take on the language of "good vs. evil" and "us vs. them". So in Europe you don't really get this language around religion, but you certainly do surrounding socialism or Nationalism.

Radicalism is the problem, not religion.
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Old 2011-07-02, 12:02   Link #3228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Hypocrisy. They claim to be in it to help people, but they're actually in it to increase the size of the flock. As I said, if they were actually in it to help people--which, in less-backwards states than Oklahoma, they often are--people would not be turned away based on religious belief or sexual orientation. They would be accepted without regard or judgment--which is, as far as I can tell, what their own prophet intended them to do!
Just one thing to say about this, you're half right about them being hypocritical, but this applies to those people who lead the organization or directly represent it. By this, I'm referring to people as high as the Pope to your everyday Sunday priest or preacher. People who are not directly representing them i.e. its everyday followers, are caught by the bait and are trying to drag others with them because they believe it's the right thing to do. Most of them genuinely believe that it's how people should be thinking for them to be saved, and a good example of this would be my parents. My mother even goes as far as saying that modern society, the freedom we have and the "democracy" we have that allows a fair judgement of people all stem from the teachings of Jesus and Christianity. As you know, that's a pack to lies considering that kind of government is a theocracy (worse than a dictatorship), but there are people like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Not all religious charities play this game. Not in California, anyway--though I'm sure there are some evangelical organizations here that do. However, it's very commonly played in the South, especially among known corrupt organizations like the Salvation Army.
Haha, Salvation Army. Every time I hear about them, I think "Rip-off Army" instead

But anyways, as some people have said here, and as I've prolly said here before, true harmony in society doesn't come from beliving in a single God or in a collection of gods, or what have you. It's from trusting and believing the person next to you, from tolerating, seeing and understanding others for who they are because we're all human beings living in the same plain of existance. No matter how much money, power, women you may have, you're still human like everyone else, and this world isn't just for the few people with power, which is what capitalism and christianity would have you believe (in a more subtle manner in the case of the latter). It's the most hypocritical thing about christianity and most other religions: the fact they claim to be understanding toward all people and their circumstances, but even in their scriptures, it is said that homosexuality/diverging beliefs are not tolerated. I also have to agree with pancakes on this. It's terrible to brand someone a sinner just for having different ideologies.

Last edited by Tsuyoshi; 2011-07-02 at 14:57.
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Old 2011-07-02, 14:55   Link #3229
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pancakes View Post
Adding on I don't like how everyone goes around calling everyone else a "sinner" or that their going to hell. What an inhuman thing to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
It's terribly to brand someone a sinner just for having different ideologies.
The Bible says that all have sinned.

So at least, in Christianity:

1. It's not about calling everyone else a sinner.
2. And it's not about branding someone a sinner just for having different ideologies.

All have sinned.

Now, with that said, I'd say it's more inhumane for a Christian to not tell others of the end that awaits all of us, as sinners, and the salvation that God has provided to save us from that end.

Anyway, that is my belief. I realize not everyone shares that belief, but it's a different thing altogether to call it inhumane. It's not like I'm wishing bad things to happen to anybody.
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Old 2011-07-02, 15:00   Link #3230
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Well, what I mean to say is that unless the Bible states that if you don't believe in God, you're going to hell. This is no matter how much good you do for yourself, the people around you, the people you care for, etc. No matter what you do in life to help other people, no matter how much good you do for the world, if you don't believe in God, you go to hell. On the other hand, a Christian can confess his/her sins, and so long as they be as good to people as anyone, they can go to Heaven. That's what strikes me as unfair.

(Unless, if you're gonna say that even when you're a Christian, you do good and you confess your sins, you still go to hell, let me ask you, what is even the point of it all? You may treat it as a rhetorical question but think on it in your own time if you wish.)
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Old 2011-07-02, 15:01   Link #3231
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The whole point of Christianity is that humanity is tainted by sin and Jesus sacrificed himself as salvation and atonement; being pure and God himself he took on the punishment for everyone. Therefore, to be absolved of sins, one must accept Jesus as their savior and thus not be damned.

Bascially Jesus is your get out of jail free card.

In other words, it doesn't matter if you're a good person or not. If you don't accept Jesus, you still must be damned for those sins.

Or, to be more direct, accept Jesus, or Go to Hell-- that would be a logical conclusion for the hardliners. And yes, all other religions in this view would be wrong...
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Old 2011-07-02, 15:12   Link #3232
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
Well, what I mean to say is that unless the Bible states that if you don't believe in God, you're going to hell. This is no matter how much good you do for yourself, the people around you, the people you care for, etc. No matter what you do in life to help other people, no matter how much good you do for the world, if you don't believe in God, you go to hell. On the other hand, a Christian can confess his/her sins, and so long as they be as good to people as anyone, they can go to Heaven. That's what strikes me as unfair.
So? It's what they believe. Why should it be fair?
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Old 2011-07-02, 15:14   Link #3233
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So? It's what they believe. Why should it be fair?
Because fairness is what they preach (unless I missed something and they only preach fairness toward other believers and everyone else gets the silent treatment if they're lucky)
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Old 2011-07-02, 15:16   Link #3234
Anh_Minh
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Because fairness is what they preach
How so? I thought what they preached, first and foremost, was obedience.
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Old 2011-07-02, 15:58   Link #3235
monster
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
Well, what I mean to say is that unless the Bible states that if you don't believe in God, you're going to hell. This is no matter how much good you do for yourself, the people around you, the people you care for, etc. No matter what you do in life to help other people, no matter how much good you do for the world, if you don't believe in God, you go to hell. On the other hand, a Christian can confess his/her sins, and so long as they be as good to people as anyone, they can go to Heaven. That's what strikes me as unfair.

(Unless, if you're gonna say that even when you're a Christian, you do good and you confess your sins, you still go to hell, let me ask you, what is even the point of it all? You may treat it as a rhetorical question but think on it in your own time if you wish.)
Unfortunately, there's a misconception that sinning means doing bad things. The reality, however, is that to commit sin more accurately means to go against God's will. Now, that may include doing bad things, but it's not always the case and it's not limited to that.

But more to the point, as sinners, we cannot redeem ourselves in the sight of God. So by the grace of God, Jesus was sacrificed so that those who believe in him would have their sins be forgiven. That doesn't mean that Christians will no longer commit sin, but it also doesn't mean that Christians are now allowed to commit sin.

All it means is that God, who has forgiven the sins of the believers in Jesus Christ, will not hold believers accountable for those sins in the end time. But when we do commit sin, God can still punish/discipline us here in our present lives.

So as Christians, we are still encouraged, even commanded, to do good, but not for our salvation. Our salvation comes only by the grace of God, and we accept it through our faith in Jesus Christ.

I hope that clarifies my belief. Doing good things is still very important in Christianity, just not when it comes to salvation and the forgiveness of sin.
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Old 2011-07-02, 21:18   Link #3236
DonQuigleone
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Is something Sinful because God says it is? Or is it just sinful, and god just tells us is so?

In which case, what makes something sinful?
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Old 2011-07-03, 01:29   Link #3237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pancakes View Post
I don't know what I am honestly. I don't believe life was created by a combustion of energy, and I don't believe life was created on the spot instantly. SomeTHING created life I just don't know what.
It wasn't created by a "combustion of energy" nor was it created ex nihilo.

Talk Origins has some great info on how life started on Earth. Check it out here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/
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Old 2011-07-04, 15:49   Link #3238
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Another Agnostic-Atheist here. Was raised a strange mixture of non-denominational fundamentalist Christian/Mormon so I guess you could say I've had a interesting upbringing.

I'm tempted to join in on the religious debate but I don't think I could resist the urge to get in-depth and drive the discussion further off-topic. Regardless, it's encouraging to see so many free thinkers on these boards.
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Old 2011-07-06, 01:49   Link #3239
Ending
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Quote:
I don't know what I am honestly. I don't believe life was created by a combustion of energy, and I don't believe life was created on the spot instantly. SomeTHING created life I just don't know what.
Quote:
It wasn't created by a "combustion of energy" nor was it created ex nihilo.

Talk Origins has some great info on how life started on Earth. Check it out here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/
Better yet, read Richard Dawkin's book "The God Delusion", which pretty much sums it all up. This question has been up thousands of times before and all the answers are in the book. In short: even if you want to believe that we were born by something else than a burst of flames, it does NOT indicate the presence of a god. Frankly, it indicates nothing and presuming there is a god in the gaps (like the book puts it), you are deluding yourself.

Quote:
It's people who believe in something too radically, and fall prey to the idea that those who do so differently are "evil". Religious fanatics are obviously one obvious group. But equally I'm sure we've all met some socialists or environmentalists who are similiarly annoying.
I'd label the entire 7th Day Adventist church under this category, because they (like probably many other churches) actively pursuing a "Garden Wall" strategy. As in: members of the church employ, date, and see only other members. All is in harmony, because everything the members see, are other members. They never realize that by favoring their religion, they are doing so at the expense of everyone else, who become discriminated. Guess what these second-class citizens do once they realize that they have to convert or get secluded? They start killing these mofos.

Atheism is better because, by nature, it does not try to control and is malleable. If a scientist one day realizes that everything we have believed about the birth of the universe if wrong and has a proof, then that's what we are going to know. Just try challenging the birth of the God in a similar situation and see how far you get before being labeled as a heretic. E.g: why would the fella make us do THIS?

Last edited by Ending; 2011-07-06 at 02:22.
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Old 2011-07-06, 05:12   Link #3240
DonQuigleone
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Atheism is better because, by nature, it does not try to control and is malleable. If a scientist one day realizes that everything we have believed about the birth of the universe if wrong and has a proof, then that's what we are going to know. Just try challenging the birth of the God in a similar situation and see how far you get before being labeled as a heretic. E.g: why would the fella make us do THIS?
I think generally a belief system with decentralized authority is better in these circumstances. That's the weakness of many religions, the authority in the religion is centralized in a body of people (clergy) or in a set text (Bible, Quran etc.)

Speaking of good texts discussing religion, I think Thomas Paine's Age of Reason Is very good, particularly chapter 2 of part I.

I wonder if Glenn Beck realizes his idol was completely against organized religion of all kinds....
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