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Old 2008-02-20, 17:56   Link #401
darkdarkasian
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Truth behind Jesus in the first 20 minutes of this video.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

I'm currently part Buddhist/Muslim/Deist
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Old 2008-02-20, 17:58   Link #402
Thentus
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All I see in the first minute is a lot of shooting =/.
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Old 2008-02-20, 18:19   Link #403
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
What happened to a sense of adventure and discovery that encourages people to find out what is truly what? If you think of it that way laziness would technically be caused by religion, PARTIALLY. That's right PARTIALLY and NOT fully. However yes, it does fill their needs there is no point in arguing that.
Hmm, nothing "happened" to a sense of adventure and discovery and the chronology you're implying is backwards.

The scientific method came much later than the first intuitive guessing games of "what makes the wind blow?" or why the world happens as it does. Spiritual explanations were the best that was available: the theory was "things move because they have intent" --- therefore someone is responsible for lightning, the tides, good crops. We should be nice to those powerful unseen beings, eh?

Religion itself isn't necessarily a bad thing -- having a spiritual underpinning for life, the universe, and whathaveyou.
Religious DOCTRINE, otoh, can inspire people to do really terrible things as well as really good things. Some doctrine seems specifically designed for "less than noble" purposes when examined for who benefits and who doesn't.
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Old 2008-02-20, 18:26   Link #404
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Quote:
Truth behind Jesus in the first 20 minutes of this video.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
I actually made a thread about that "documentary" a month or so ago, but not to discuss the supposed points the guy wanted to make, but the actual historic theory behind the correlation of the sun and major entities present in most religions.

However, what the guy presents is no "truth". He just took that theory (which actually has some pretty good bases for its claims) shouted it as truth and made a number of grossly inadequate generalizations, plus a couple of blatant lies (I particularly loved how wrong he presented the background of Bacchus). Sorry, but that's not it. If you really want to see some actual material about it, check the sources on the Wikipedia entries for themes like Jesus Christ in Comparative Mythology.
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Old 2008-02-20, 18:31   Link #405
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
In the end though, I consider religion a manipulative tool to basically program everybody to certain morals and beliefs held by those long long ago. People have always been manipulated easily due to complete ignorance of pretty much everything from birth. Enter the Bible and parents/guardians who want their kids to follow religion as well. Well what do the know, almost all of society has some religious association and I believe almost all of society is the majority of people, no? Now that it has taken over the world whether or not you believe in it is just remarkable would be my first reasoning of why humans are creatures of habit. What you already know that? Do you know why? Yup, religion.

Think of what the world would be like if the people way back when held different beliefs. Hmm, I wonder? Not only is it manipulative but it is a safety net. People who truly believe in the morals and beliefs they have learned are more often than not(there I have myself covered) considered "good" people. Heck, even that word "good" was most likely designed by the Bible.
Hm, no. The Bible is less than 2000 years old, and back then Christianty was very much a minority religion. There have been "good" people for a lot longer than that.

You make it sound like religion was designed. I disagree. I think it mostly just happened. Sure, over time, maybe some people were able to insert some manipulative stuff. But I seriously doubt some caveman somewhere woke and and thought "Hey! I'm going to con everyone with a neat story about supernatural beings who want me to get the best share of the meat!"


And if they'd held different beliefs? Maybe they'd worship the Spaghetti Monster, but I don't see how it'd make much difference. There are only so many ways to build a cohesive society.


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I have never read a Bible, seen it twice so excuse any ignorance I may present.

By the way Anh Minh what is your association?
I'm an atheist.
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Old 2008-02-20, 18:35   Link #406
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Quote:
You make it sound like religion was designed. I disagree. I think it mostly just happened. Sure, over time, maybe some people were able to insert some manipulative stuff. But I seriously doubt some caveman somewhere woke and and thought "Hey! I'm going to con everyone with a neat story about supernatural beings who want me to get the best share of the meat!"
Obviously that probably didn't happen (besides, it's kinda simplifying the issue too much), but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of organized religion being used to control people from the very beginning.
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Old 2008-02-20, 19:01   Link #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
chronology you're implying is backwards.
Can you elaborate please, I don't get it =/.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The scientific method came much later than the first intuitive guessing games of "what makes the wind blow?" or why the world happens as it does.
They made the best of what they could, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Religion itself isn't necessarily a bad thing -- having a spiritual underpinning for life, the universe, and whathaveyou.
Religious DOCTRINE, otoh, can inspire people to do really terrible things as well as really good things. Some doctrine seems specifically designed for "less than noble" purposes when examined for who benefits and who doesn't.
You're right it probably isn't a bad thing, but wondering about things that never were and never will be, it is truly amazing how religion WAS able to shape everything around us and explain phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe they'd worship the Spaghetti Monster
People might if that's what they decided to worship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
You make it sound like religion was designed. I disagree. I think it mostly just happened. Sure, over time, maybe some people were able to insert some manipulative stuff. But I seriously doubt some caveman somewhere woke and and thought "Hey! I'm going to con everyone with a neat story about supernatural beings who want me to get the best share of the meat!"
Are you saying religion has no design what-so-ever because that's what I am hearing.

You speak as if cavemen had the logic of today to be able to first of all stop trying to survive and come up with a story, and than actually be ABLE to think of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight
Obviously that probably didn't happen (besides, it's kinda simplifying the issue too much), but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of organized religion being used to control people from the very beginning.
Thank you, this is what I meant to say. I never said people just came up with it out of the blue but they could have thought long and hard and collaborated with others to create it.

~

I do not dismiss any of your ideas because I don't know what happened, I just choose to perceive it differently.
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Old 2008-02-20, 19:45   Link #408
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
Can you elaborate please, I don't get it =/.
Hmmm, I elaborated in the next few sentences. It *sounded* like you were saying that religious explanations had somehow beat down "adventure and discovery" so I was pointing out that simple stories involving unseen beings came first. The "discovery" and the methods to discover came much later.

Your later comments show you weren't really confused. Its more like we're all using the word "religion" to discuss what are actually a number of separate things:
1) personal spirituality,
2) attributing sentience to natural forces,
3) sympathetic magic (sacrifice to appease unseen beings),
4) moral codes for living,
5) organized religion (authority, power and bureaucracy).

Balling all those up into "religion" creates a lot of the misunderstandings I see posted.
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Old 2008-02-20, 19:55   Link #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Hmmm, I elaborated in the next few sentences. It *sounded* like you were saying that religious explanations had somehow beat down "adventure and discovery" so I was pointing out that simple stories involving unseen beings came first. The "discovery" and the methods to discover came much later.

Your later comments show you weren't really confused. Its more like we're all using the word "religion" to discuss what are actually a number of separate things:
1) personal spirituality,
2) attributing sentience to natural forces,
3) sympathetic magic (sacrifice to appease unseen beings),
4) moral codes for living,
5) organized religion (authority, power and bureaucracy).

Balling all those up into "religion" creates a lot of the misunderstandings I see posted.
Oh sorry. I thought that next paragraph was it's own seperate entity. You're right you did elaborate.
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Old 2008-02-21, 00:34   Link #410
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
Are you saying religion has no design what-so-ever because that's what I am hearing.
No, I'm saying religion came first, and designs, whatever they are, later.

Quote:
You speak as if cavemen had the logic of today to be able to first of all stop trying to survive and come up with a story, and than actually be ABLE to think of it.
No, you are. You're talking as if cavemen purposely designed religion for long term manipulation.

I think it's just some guys who wondered about why the wind blew, and could only come up with "It's a giant blowing air out of his mouth". It snowballed from there.
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Old 2008-02-21, 14:59   Link #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, you are. You're talking as if cavemen purposely designed religion for long term manipulation.
It's funny how you say that, because I never refered to cavemen; YOU interpreted it as cavemen but I never mentioned it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I think it's just some guys who wondered about why the wind blew, and could only come up with "It's a giant blowing air out of his mouth". It snowballed from there.
We're not going to change each others minds anyways =/.
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Old 2008-02-21, 15:07   Link #412
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Quote:
You're talking as if cavemen purposely designed religion for long term manipulation.
Organized religion didn't necessarily have to start for long-term manipulation (if you're referring to those kinds of popular conspiracy theories which connect the beginning to today's society), but I believe it's very possible that, in a small-scale, it would be exploited almost immediately after its creation to manipulate people. It's what comes to my mind instantly whenever I picture the stereotypical prehistoric shaman in his hut, held at a special place within the community. The religious "mediums", so to speak, were never, ever treated the same as a regular person... or at least I can't imagine it otherwise.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but I think you're trying to purposefully misinterpret the point ("strawman" I think we generally call that ).
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Old 2008-02-21, 17:16   Link #413
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
It's funny how you say that, because I never refered to cavemen; YOU interpreted it as cavemen but I never mentioned it.
You were talking about the origin of religions. They're not exactly a recent phenomenon.


WK:

I don't think I'm misinterpreting it. There's a huge difference between saying "As religions grew in power, some people came along to abuse that power and make it grow" and "religions were created only to manipulate people".

I also disagree with you on a few points. Like your use of the term "organised religion" to separate the innocent proto-priests from the big bad manipulators.

I don't think there was an appreciable cut-off between a father sharing the stories his father told him with his son, and a shaman passing on the secrets of lighting fires.

I think it started with some guy coming up with stories for the wind or lightning. Stories that made sense to him. They made sense to the people around him, and they thought "Hey, that guy is pretty smart. Maybe we should listen to him more. Come to him with our questions." It all snow-balled from there. Nobody may have intended religion. It just happened.

And sure, shamans tried to wrangle whatever payment they could for their work. But to call it manipulative... Well, maybe I'm underestimating cavemen, but I don't imagine they had that kind of long term vision. I also don't believe they had the kind of free ride you imply they had. Hunter gatherers just couldn't afford it. So they may have hunted and gathered less than their neighbours, but they spent their times treating wounds and diseases, tending fires, and so on. It must have taken many generations before it grew into anything resembling a clergy.
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Old 2008-02-21, 17:28   Link #414
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
And sure, shamans tried to wrangle whatever payment they could for their work. But to call it manipulative... Well, maybe I'm underestimating cavemen, but I don't imagine they had that kind of long term vision.
It's not necessary to have a long term vision. As soon as you have people that will believe you no matter what, you've got them under control. It's as simple as that.
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Old 2008-02-21, 17:56   Link #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They're not exactly a recent phenomenon.
Great, now please stop diverting the fact that you were straw man arguing with your cavemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Hm, no. The Bible is less than 2000 years old
What's this contradition to the first quote? Tell me I don't need to define what "less than" implies.

Let me see if I can get away with this .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
And sure, shamans tried to wrangle whatever payment they could for their work. But to call it manipulative... Well, maybe I'm underestimating cavemen, but I don't imagine they had that kind of long term vision. I also don't believe they had the kind of free ride you imply they had. Hunter gatherers just couldn't afford it. So they may have hunted and gathered less than their neighbours, but they spent their times treating wounds and diseases, tending fires, and so on. It must have taken many generations before it grew into anything resembling a clergy.
No I don't think they had long term vision, HOWEVER I am 99.99% positive(.01% 'cause I wasn't there)sure even the earliest of people wanted some extra benefits and a better way of living and survival for themselves. Sure people still have kindness, but it's hard to be kind when you're dead/dying, suffering, or anything of that sort. Basically I am not calling out everybody and saying they are selfish, but they did what they needed for themselves and probably their families as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
I think it started with some guy coming up with stories for the wind or lightning. Stories that made sense to him. They made sense to the people around him, and they thought "Hey, that guy is pretty smart. Maybe we should listen to him more. Come to him with our questions." It all snow-balled from there. Nobody may have intended religion.
OK you have officially 100% convinced me that yes that is probably how it started and I believe I was wrong. Still, it evolved to a form of manipulation, or at least that's how I believe it to happen. The ignorant are truly the sheep of the world, following the others logical responses that they could not come up with themselves.

So in turn, does that mean you agree with me that logic DID happen and people COULD think about things like manipulation. Not necessarily to the degree that we can now, but to a CERTAIN degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
It just happened.
I agree with that now.
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Old 2008-02-21, 18:46   Link #416
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
Great, now please stop diverting the fact that you were straw man arguing with your cavemen.
Once again, in English, please?



Quote:
What's this contradition to the first quote? Tell me I don't need to define what "less than" implies.

Let me see if I can get away with this .
The Bible is part of a religion. Which is only 2000 years old, though related to an older religion (which has got a few more millenia).

However, you've also been talking about religions in general. And that's a lot older still.


Quote:
No I don't think they had long term vision, HOWEVER I am 99.99% positive(.01% 'cause I wasn't there)sure even the earliest of people wanted some extra benefits and a better way of living and survival for themselves. Sure people still have kindness, but it's hard to be kind when you're dead/dying, suffering, or anything of that sort. Basically I am not calling out everybody and saying they are selfish, but they did what they needed for themselves and probably their families as well.
Yeah... So? Getting paid for doing your work isn't being manipulative.


And while manipulation and power plays may have been part of some if not all religions, that doesn't mean that it's all religions are. It's just a part of it. A small part, sometimes.
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Old 2008-02-21, 19:02   Link #417
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Obviously that probably didn't happen (besides, it's kinda simplifying the issue too much), but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of organized religion being used to control people from the very beginning.
I'm inclined to say that this is a truism. To control people is a function of every organization. Because the very word means that there are rules you're expected to follow. To control people is (thanks god) certainly a function of the state, and in the beginning there was no real difference between the state and organized religion. Organized religion is probably as old as organized people, at least beyond the family level.

I have no problem with global churches BTW. The catholic church is often the only candidate for organized opposition in a dictatorial state, as it is the only transnational source of authority. The more national the focus of a church, the more likely they ally with the regime. And the most fanatical priests/mullahs/shamans act typically on their own, without any real organization above them.
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Old 2008-02-21, 19:13   Link #418
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Quote:
I'm inclined to say that this is a truism. To control people is a function of every organization.
s/control/manipulate
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Old 2008-02-21, 19:38   Link #419
Girl_who_cried_gnome
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to be honest and not try to offend other people here, i hate organized religion and believe that your spiritual path should be a path that you walk alone one on one with whatever god you believe in.... also i find most organized religions to be very hypocritcal

i also have a more natural type of religion which believes that god is more of a spiritual aura that exists all around us in nature..... instead of some old guy with a beard that sits on a throne in a castle in the clouds
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Old 2008-02-21, 19:56   Link #420
technomo12
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I AM PART

CATHOLIC

AND

my secodn religion is

HARUHISM

ahahaha

well i just hate those who make protestant religions who make thme selves god but im not complaining to the point of shooting them i just hate them
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Last edited by technomo12; 2008-02-21 at 19:57. Reason: wrong spelling
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