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Old 2008-03-02, 03:29   Link #501
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dxon View Post
I bet he DID exist. Just take the bible.. HAS to be written by someone!

And then people will say:
"Yeah. By those apostols of Jesus. (or whatever.. His apprentices dammit! )"

That's crap.

Take scientology for an instance..
Some dude wrote a good book and people started this scientology religion thing. I bet that happened with the bible too!
Your post was on the funny side of things.
I understand what you're trying to say though.

You get a cookie.
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Old 2008-03-02, 09:58   Link #502
Inferied
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My religion is a self-made mix between agnosticism, nihilism, atheism and something else. Besides it, I support only atheism.
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Old 2008-03-02, 13:03   Link #503
Irkalla
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Atheist.
I try not to dislike people who desperately have to believe in something...but I'm quite failing in that.
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Old 2008-03-02, 18:04   Link #504
Theowne
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I don't have a religion, and I'm hesitant to call myself an athiest because that implies a disbelief in God and an intentional decision to disbelieve in one. Myself, I just do not give it much thought. There's no way to know if there or if there isn't. So I focus my time on other things, like education, helping others, etc. If in the end, I face a judgement day, than I hope that my good deeds and morality will be enough.
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Old 2008-03-03, 01:35   Link #505
Kagerou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I don't have a religion, and I'm hesitant to call myself an athiest because that implies a disbelief in God and an intentional decision to disbelieve in one. Myself, I just do not give it much thought. There's no way to know if there or if there isn't. So I focus my time on other things, like education, helping others, etc. If in the end, I face a judgement day, than I hope that my good deeds and morality will be enough.
What you said would make you an agnostic, I believe.

My so-called "religion" is really a compromise between all the rest of them, in that none of them are right, but none of them are wrong either. Just different views on potentially the same thing. I'm almost one-hundred percent sure of that (contribute the part that's still skeptical to being human ).

Besides, the way that the universe was created leads me to believe that there's no way it could have happened by chance.
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Old 2008-03-03, 18:01   Link #506
Girl_who_cried_gnome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiachopvutru View Post
Do you mean www.venganza.org? It's the site about Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I believe that's one you mean. The link you have up there is actually a site to a nsfw webcam chat or something like that (I just checked).

And please use the edit button =.=;;
HAHA.OMG. Sorry for like directing you to some porn site but yeah its .org

and sorry i really... didnt know... how to
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Old 2008-03-03, 19:18   Link #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Girl_who_cried_gnome View Post
HAHA.OMG. Sorry for like directing you to some porn site but yeah its .org

and sorry i really... didnt know... how to
It's right next to the quote button.
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Old 2008-03-03, 20:04   Link #508
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hmmm... my religion is catholic mmmhhhmm
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Old 2008-03-03, 20:20   Link #509
vampireyuki18
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well.... im a catholic. but there are these times when i wanna change into a different religion.
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Old 2008-03-03, 20:30   Link #510
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Uuh... none? I mean, for the umpteenth time in this thread, religion means, deep at the bottom of it, accepting an irrational truth without even doubting it. Everything else can be built on top and analyzed, but the very core of God's existence can't.

I can't believe you still don't want to understand this.
I haven't read this thread completely, but I find this definition of religion to be fairly loaded and inaccurate. I suppose 'religion' can be a variety of things, but operating around the idea of 'faith,' religion can be the end conclusion of a variety of logical assumptions/sources (a "calculated risk," to quote John O'Malley). One cannot prove God, but a belief in God can be considered a logically sound explanation for the universe.

I think the validity in a God belief is apparent. While some, including myself, may choose not to accept it, there is no need to disparage it (not all theists are Bible lunatics or blind believers).

Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2008-03-03 at 20:43.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:08   Link #511
Renchan
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Wow, I'm surprised... there's so many atheist here.

I'm a Muslim... Not a good one, but I still believe with Allah/god.
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Old 2008-03-04, 11:22   Link #512
Yaoi_Daisuki
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taoist here =)
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Old 2008-03-04, 19:37   Link #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
but I find this definition of religion to be fairly loaded and inaccurate.
OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I suppose 'religion' can be a variety of things
Than that is a self-contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
but operating around the idea of 'faith,' religion can be the end conclusion of a variety of logical assumptions/sources (a "calculated risk," to quote John O'Malley).
If you were simply leading on, I "suppose" it is extremely flawed that you would use "but" to cancel out everything you said before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
One cannot prove God
Yes, very hard to prove things that don't exist, well don't exist.

That(my response) sort of sounds sarcastic =/. It's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
there is no need to disparage it (not all theists are Bible lunatics or blind believers).
I personally think people should not just irrationally "come" to conclusions. Now of course, they only took those conclusions and now we just have a bunch of subordinates to a cause that was long ago thought very worthy.

Even if they are not all bible lunatics or blind believers, THOSE are the type of people that somehow manage to shape my opinion of one who TRULY believes in god.

Don't criticize me for my "grammar", it was on purpose as you can clearly see my opinion.
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Old 2008-03-05, 00:55   Link #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
Yes, very hard to prove things that don't exist, well don't exist.

That(my response) sort of sounds sarcastic =/. It's not.
I'd say that's a response that shows your beliefs, and that you are not open to other beliefs. You're right, you can't prove the existence of things that don't exist because they don't exist. But to say that about God reminds me of "old science." This one's an interesting story.

There was a theory in biology known as "spontaneous generation" - people thought that life formed spontaneously. It was even believed that there were certain recipes for forming life. I believe the recipe for mice was putting some old corn kernels among old cloth and then placing those objects inside of a dark room and leaving them alone for three days. When you came back, the cloth was disturbed or entirely missing, the kernels were gone, and there were mice! Imagine that! Even after the field of microbiology developed and people began to understand that there were organisms that we couldn't see with the naked eye, the theory of spontaneous generation persisted. Anyone who said otherwise was waved away by high-level scientists. Louis Pasteur finally devised an experiment which proved the theory of spontaneous generation to be untrue. It's worth noting that even before Pasteur's experiment there were others who performed similar experiments, but scientists claimed that those experiments only proved that spontaneous generation couldn't occur without air.

I bring this up because it illustrates an important point. We as a society are constantly making new discoveries. We take our current knowledge for granted and laugh at the ignorance of people in the past, such as those who thought that mice could form from some random objects. Yet very few people are willing to accept that new discoveries can shake up our understanding of even the basic scientific principles.

Spontaneous generation is one example among many. More recently one need only examine basic biology - in the past, the "tree of life" was made up of five kingdoms (perhaps more even before that?). The five kingdoms were later reduced, I believe, and currently we have three domains in the tree of life - the kingdom model was almost entirely abandoned. The field of genetics has increased our understanding of the relations between living organisms, which were previously viewed based on morphology.

We can't prove God, you are right. But we can't disprove God, either. If you want to be a skeptic of religion and base your views on science, you should understand the scientific methods and realize that under science everything is a possibility unless proven otherwise. Does God exist? It's possible until proven otherwise. Even when something is disproven or proven, new evidence may present a new understanding or interpretation of something that was completely accepted. If you believe there is no God your faith is no different than that of a religious person; only the agnostics can claim to follow scientific principles in this case.
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Old 2008-03-05, 01:02   Link #515
xNirvash Type0x
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Holy cow yo that was a long response you put there ledgem xD


woot for christians!
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Old 2008-03-05, 04:42   Link #516
navab
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Quote:
We can't prove God, you are right. But we can't disprove God, either. If you want to be a skeptic of religion and base your views on science, you should understand the scientific methods and realize that under science everything is a possibility unless proven otherwise. Does God exist? It's possible until proven otherwise. Even when something is disproven or proven, new evidence may present a new understanding or interpretation of something that was completely accepted. If you believe there is no God your faith is no different than that of a religious person; only the agnostics can claim to follow scientific principles in this case.
I whole-heartedly agree with this post, because in the end, you're still "believing" in something whether it being God, or Science.
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Old 2008-03-05, 11:43   Link #517
Vexx
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argh.... no, no, no. One is rational, the other is irrational (and no that isn't an insult, its descriptive). The scientific method has skepticism as its core. Set up a hypothesis, test for failure, modify til silly or a better hypothesis is formulated. Religion has no "test for failure" within its precepts - its *FAITH* based. Faith, by definition, is a belief without evidence -- its either based in revelation, epiphany, or indoctrination.

Its a classic semantic trick to equate "believing in science" with "believing in a religion".
There is no equivalence and that isn't what Ledgem said. He simply said you can't *disprove* God just like I can't *disprove* fairies, Thor, or Cthulhu. Atheism does not equal science (though science sometimes leads to an atheist viewpoint, personal experience or revelation can also).
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Old 2008-03-05, 14:03   Link #518
Ledgem
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Vexx has it right, but I can see where the "belief in science" idea comes from. I've met a number of people who are educated in science yet haven't kept up with certain advancements, or have an understanding of certain sciences while lacking in others. These people are not open to expanding their understanding.

For example, I know of someone's mother who is aware that sickness can be induced by microorganisms. She tends to focus on bacteria, however, and as such is one of those mothers who believes that everything must be sterile and is terribly afraid of "dirty" things, including the floor and anything that touches the floor. Similar to any religion, she indoctrinated this belief into her children. While the mother herself isn't a scientist, one of her children is quite good with the sciences. Despite my explanation that bacteria are everywhere, we need them to survive, and that you're in trouble if you're too clean (too clean - a totally foreign concept to most people), the fear of bacteria and dirtiness in general remains. In that case, science is a belief - but it's like being stuck on Immunology version 1.0 when current research is at Immunology 8.0. Other beliefs include a fear that a person will suffocate if there isn't an open window, be it in a car or a house - don't ask me how the child, highly skilled in chemistry, didn't overcome that one by realizing that materials are porous and that diffusion of molecules still occurs (or, for that matter, that those of us from cold climates sure as heck don't have any open windows for close to half the year).

The example I cited isn't really science, though. It's a person hearing some information and then linking it with what they'd like to believe. One has to wonder if a similar phenomenon hasn't occurred with the religions as we know them. For example, the common Christian belief is that good people go to Heaven, a sort of afterlife-party up in the sky. I mentioned it before but a different interpretation is that when you die, you're dead - but if you're good, you'll be resurrected to help build the new world when the apocalypse comes. That doesn't sound quite as nice as the first version, does it? Keeping in mind that this isn't about which version is true, which version do more people seem to believe? If you have an interest in the religions you should speak with people of faith, but study them for yourself and be aware that people are prone to picking and choosing what they'd like to believe in.
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Old 2008-03-05, 20:28   Link #519
Thentus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
We can't prove God, you are right. But we can't disprove God, either. If you want to be a skeptic of religion and base your views on science, you should understand the scientific methods and realize that under science everything is a possibility unless proven otherwise. Does God exist? It's possible until proven otherwise. Even when something is disproven or proven, new evidence may present a new understanding or interpretation of something that was completely accepted. If you believe there is no God your faith is no different than that of a religious person; only the agnostics can claim to follow scientific principles in this case.
I have a hard time finding out what kind of possible evidence could prove or disprove god. If I sat down and thought about it, I probably still wouldn't have an answer.
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Old 2008-03-05, 20:41   Link #520
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Thentus View Post
I have a hard time finding out what kind of possible evidence could prove or disprove god. If I sat down and thought about it, I probably still wouldn't have an answer.
I'm sure that people had a hard time proving or disproving what made you sick, as well. All that they could do was point to case-by-case scenarios, such as getting wet at night, or leaving the window open (note that some of these beliefs are still prevalent, apparently). When it was discovered that there are millions upon millions of microscopic life forms that we'd never known about things started to become clear. However until the discovery of microscopic life people were completely in the dark.

Microbiology was an area of science that required certain advancements to be made before people could even begin to discover it and understand it. Perhaps God is something similar. Just like the people of the past who could only observe sickness, all we have are some faint clues referring to what God is. Perhaps God really is just a fairytale, or perhaps what we know of God is a misunderstanding that was passed down for generations. I don't think anyone knows for certain, and that's partly what makes it so interesting.
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