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Old 2008-07-28, 14:01   Link #1161
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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What's that got to do with anything?
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Old 2008-07-28, 14:03   Link #1162
TinyRedLeaf
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You asked an obvious question. What do you think would be my obvious reply?

Similarly, "Do good, avoid evil, keep your mind pure." It's so obvious that anyone can think of it. How many people do you know who practise it?
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Old 2008-07-28, 14:20   Link #1163
Fipskuul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Refer to the rest of this post, as I basically explain what I meant. To reiterate, my comment on religious meaning refers to life as a whole and why life exists in the first place. An agnostic cannot answer that question, as it steps beyond known science.
If that is the case, you are right, you cannot have any kind of scientific answer, because, currently there is no scientific way to explain the beginning of existence, and without that, no one can answer your question. Still, even if you have no way to understand the origin of that, if you follow the known history, you can try to come up with a partially satisfactory answer (such as preserving the balance in the nature). Would that mean a lot? I don't think so, as we may not even be considered as a notable existence within the vastness of the (known and unknown) universe.
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Old 2008-07-28, 14:22   Link #1164
Anh_Minh
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Practice it? I don't even understand it. What's good, evil, or pure?
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Old 2008-07-28, 14:33   Link #1165
Fipskuul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What's good, evil, or pure?
For the first two, you can assume the parts shared by religions and laws. The third is spiritual, so, it is your choice what you do regarding that part.
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Old 2008-07-28, 15:14   Link #1166
TinyRedLeaf
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Then it wasn't really as obvious as it seemed, was it? Similarly, simply because training your mind seems like an obviously generic answer, what makes you think it's an easy answer?

Simple =/= easy.

What to study? Why study? To search for the Truth? Why? Because the Truth would make you happy? But what if you can't find it? Those are questions for you to answer, not me. I think I've already found what I want, but what I want is not necessarily want you want. As I've said, revelation is personal.

I find I don't need to be a genius to be happy. I only need to be me.

And I think it was you who once pointed out that good and evil is an aesthetic choice. Which means morality is a personal opinion. So why ask me what is good and evil? Ask yourself, if it matters to you. If it doesn't, then the question is moot, isn't it?
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Old 2008-07-28, 15:19   Link #1167
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Then it wasn't really as obvious as it seemed, was it? Similarly, simply because training your mind seems like an obviously generic answer, what makes you think it's an easy answer?
Actually, it's still simple, and still useless. It's not quite meaningless, but it still says very little.

Quote:
Simple =/= easy.
Har. And did I say anything about easy?

Quote:
What to study? Why study? To search for the Truth? Why? Because the Truth would make you happy? But what if you can't find it? Those are questions for you to answer, not me.
Indeed. Which means you've used a lot of words to not answer at all.

Quote:
I think I've already found what I want, but what I want is not necessarily want you want.

I find I don't need to be a genius to be happy. I only need to be me.
I didn't say happiness required genius. I said that it was required to formulate meaningful answers to questions such as "what's the meaning of life?" or "what's the difference between good and evil?" - meaningful in ways "train your mind" or "do good" aren't.
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Old 2008-07-28, 15:26   Link #1168
TinyRedLeaf
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Heh. All that I've said was not meant to convince you in the first place. I've already known from past experiences what you're like.

A whole lot of words to not answer at all? Perhaps you're right. They do say that the older a person gets, the more long-winded they become.
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Old 2008-07-28, 18:28   Link #1169
Gemstar
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I practice it it's easy. Avoid evil. Evil is anything that will harm you. Do good. Good is anything that will benefit you. Keep your mind pure. Never think of intentionally harming any being.
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Old 2008-07-28, 19:28   Link #1170
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I'm not saying it cannot be trusted. Please, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that you cannot literally take the Bible and hope to apply it to today's society, because it doesn't work that way.
You may not have said it directly, but that was the implication of what you said.
Quote:
The Garden of Eden is known to be a metaphor for the early Sumerian cities of the Tigris-Euphrates region, a region that is also known to be the origin of the Semite people that eventually gave way to the Hebrews. That's the way you read the Bible, taking it as metaphors rather than literal truth. Heck, the Genesis book even gives the reader specific directions as to where the Garden is located.

Suffice to say that I've been taught Catechism in elementary school (I went to a Catholic school), and that was one of the first things they taught us.
Suffice it to say, the Garden of Eden is a poor metaphor for the early Sumerian cities of the Tigris-Euphrates region. Especially since the Garden of Eden was not located in the Tigris-Euphrates region. But also because almost everything that pertains to civilization happened after humans went out from the Garden of Eden.

Still, given the premise of the Bible, I do not see how the Garden of Eden cannot be taken literally. (This ties into the part of my post which you have chosen not to address.)
Quote:
That's my (and a lot of other people's) view on the matter, but that shouldn't prevent you from believing. I am not using that argument to shoot down anyone's beliefs.
Don't worry, it doesn't affect my belief. But I felt it's important enough to be addressed.
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Reread the thread. We were talking about the Israelites' God-given right to wage war on the Canaanites and take their lives and their land. Which takes place in the Old Testament.
Maybe so, but again, I was only answering that specific question. And the nature of that particular question does not require that I use the Old Testament.

This is why both testaments are in the Bible instead of only one. Even if you are dealing with one of the testaments, the answer may be more clearly addressed in the other testament. Or the topic may connect both testaments together.

But either way, I used the Old Testament anyway and got the same answer. So choose that answer if you insist.
Quote:
... the Bible should be read differently depending on the historical moment each book was written, and what intentions it had in mind.
That, I agree with you.
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Old 2008-07-29, 08:38   Link #1171
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
You may not have said it directly, but that was the implication of what you said.
Then it's either poor reading comprehension or a biased approach at my statements.

Quote:
Suffice it to say, the Garden of Eden is a poor metaphor for the early Sumerian cities of the Tigris-Euphrates region. Especially since the Garden of Eden was not located in the Tigris-Euphrates region. But also because almost everything that pertains to civilization happened after humans went out from the Garden of Eden.

Still, given the premise of the Bible, I do not see how the Garden of Eden cannot be taken literally. (This ties into the part of my post which you have chosen not to address.)
Wow, you should read more carefully. I don't have Asimov's book around (which is quite clear about it), but the very rivers are directly mentioned in the Genesis book when the location of the Garden is stated. In the same way, if you don't understand how the Garden of Eden can be taken metaphorically, you certainly lack imagination. As I said, they told me this when I was 7 in Catechism at a Catholic church. It's probably one of the first things they told me when talking about the Bible (they didn't exactly say it was the Tigris-Euphrates region, but that it was a metaphor and that it must not be taken literally).

Quote:
This is why both testaments are in the Bible instead of only one. Even if you are dealing with one of the testaments, the answer may be more clearly addressed in the other testament. Or the topic may connect both testaments together.
I don't see the point here. My point was that there are obvious differences in tone and in style between the two testaments, and that is evidently because they were written by different people in different historical moments. It's as simple as that. I don't see how stating that invalidates its stance as the word of God or whatever.
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Old 2008-07-29, 18:24   Link #1172
Vexx
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The usual notes are that the Old Testament is a cobbled together collection of scripts describing the mytho-history of a small struggling arabic tribe (the people of Judaism being one of many tribes in the region) and that the New Testament is a set of discussions and parables written by people who called themselves Jews and later on, "Christians" discussing the impacts of the man they called the Messiah and the Apostles who put forth their interpretation of what it all meant. This dual collection got a "super-level-up" when the Roman Emperor was convinced by certain events (he won a war) to make Christianity the official state religion -- after that the engine was the Roman Imperial State itself (which never really fell so much as balkanized into many mini-states who still were influenced by the Holy Roman Church until the Reformation and the Protestant movement kicked off).

Each collection has suffered through various translations (as the Dead Sea scrolls and other artifacts attest, resulted in occasional extreme misinterpretation of earlier meaning). The King James version may be poetic... but :P.

And Christians have split into multiple sects in a long historical debate depending on how individuals have interpreted or weighed particular pieces of the collection.

(the shorter than the book it needs but longer than the Monty Python "Shoe" metaphorical discussion of religious history)
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Old 2008-07-29, 18:26   Link #1173
ZoomZoom
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Uh, I'm not really going to get in the big discussion here.

Answering the original question, I'm not really sure what my beliefs are.
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Old 2008-07-31, 02:30   Link #1174
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Then it's either poor reading comprehension or a biased approach at my statements.
Did you not talk about how winners (and thus, men in power,) wrote history earlier in this thread?

Usually when a person talks like that, it means he or she implies that what was written by said people cannot be trusted at face value.
Quote:
Wow, you should read more carefully. I don't have Asimov's book around (which is quite clear about it), but the very rivers are directly mentioned in the Genesis book when the location of the Garden is stated. In the same way, if you don't understand how the Garden of Eden can be taken metaphorically, you certainly lack imagination. As I said, they told me this when I was 7 in Catechism at a Catholic church. It's probably one of the first things they told me when talking about the Bible (they didn't exactly say it was the Tigris-Euphrates region, but that it was a metaphor and that it must not be taken literally).
Maybe you should read the Bible more carefully. It says a river flows out of Eden to water the garden, and from there, it splits into four rivers, two of which are the Tigris and the Euphrates. They could've just as easily said the garden lies between those two rivers if it was meant to be a metaphor for early Sumerian cities, but they did not. And the description of that garden itself would contradict urban life, even in ancient Sumer.

Any metaphor would have to be clear for it to be useful. The purpose of a metaphor is to help explain the object for which it is a metaphor. As such, the Garden of Eden would be a poor metaphor due to its description.
Quote:
I don't see the point here. My point was that there are obvious differences in tone and in style between the two testaments, and that is evidently because they were written by different people in different historical moments. It's as simple as that. I don't see how stating that invalidates its stance as the word of God or whatever.
Why do you keep ignoring the question? I rewrote what you said and stated why my answer is valid for that question.

Whatever your views may be on the difference between Old Testament and New Testament has nothing to do with this particular question. Especially since both testaments lead me to the same conclusion.
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Old 2008-07-31, 03:08   Link #1175
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
...
Any metaphor would have to be clear for it to be useful. The purpose of a metaphor is to help explain the object for which it is a metaphor. As such, the Garden of Eden would be a poor metaphor due to its description.
A writer using a metaphor assumes the audience is familiar with the contexts in which the metaphor is expressed. An excellent example that comes to mind about what happens when this isn't the case is an old Star Trek: Next Generation episode called "Darmok". In the story, the crew is baffled by a language in which they understand the words but everything is misunderstood because the symbolic concepts of the language are all expressed in the intense cultural metaphors of the race.

Genesis was written to reach the audience of its day using cultural metaphors familiar to its audience. Many concepts can be easily misinterpreted by present day audiences filtered through several language translations. Those translations were also conducted by people who had their own preconceived notions and agendas (e.g. the "virgin birth" which the oldest texts simply do not mention but which had become a critical part of Church mythos, or the failure to realize that the use of individual name actually was a allegory for an entire tribe).

(note: readers less familiar with Christianity might find this link useful for Christian terms and this link useful for an introduction to metaphorical languages)
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Old 2008-07-31, 08:00   Link #1176
emotionless_teenage
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I am a muslim
(btw,is there any muslims around here,or just me)
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Old 2008-07-31, 10:31   Link #1177
shelter
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@emotionless_teenage:

There's a group on Animesuki, if you're interested.

And Vexx, for a Wiki article, the link is useful.
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Old 2008-07-31, 11:24   Link #1178
Anth0v3r
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Location: I live in France ! xD
I'm a bouddhist and i am "fier" to be that.

Why ? Because, the bouddha's religion it's not a really religion.

There aren't obligations for the persons who praticed that.

So, if you don't understand, it's normal, i'm french ...
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Old 2008-07-31, 12:08   Link #1179
Vexx
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Well... Buddhism is and isn't a religion by Western standards. It sort of depends on which form of Buddhism is being discussed since several forms have absorbed or integrated with pre-buddhist religions that were in the area (e.g. Tibetan Buddhism, Japan's swirl of Shinto and Buddhism, several Indonesian versions of Buddhism, etc).
More concrete descriptions of Buddhism don't tend to be cluttered with speculation on the afterlife so much as how to live here and now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism and http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism.htm ... those links are fair starting points.
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Old 2008-07-31, 12:17   Link #1180
TinyRedLeaf
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Oh my goodness. I followed your second link and learnt, for the first time, that the Boy Scouts of America expels Atheists, Agnostics and homosexuals.

I find that extremely hilarious because of this:



Hint: Read the title very carefully.
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