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Old 2009-09-23, 01:02   Link #1921
fanty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Life can be its own purpose....or do I really need to define the literal meaning of purpose? The problem is that you've created a lining boundary of "purposes"'s meaning...In truth, it really is more flexible.
If we consider word "purpose" a blanket term for goals aims and all that crap then there's pretty much nothing to argue about. Saying "life has no goal" makes no sense, because anyone can set a goal for themselves any time, and it's not something you have to search for or ponder about, you just make one up. And it doesn't take much effort either.

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1 + 1 = 3, no 2, there are things that must be absolute.
Well, I'm not going to start arguing about that Maybe there are questions with definitive answers to them, or maybe there aren't any. I have no idea.
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Old 2009-09-23, 01:12   Link #1922
Mystique
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*amused*
I'm surprised this thread is still alive to be honest, I guess the GC peeps have been fairly civilised to date.
My 2 pence anyways.

I be Catholic, however could now be seen as a stray lamb in my 20s
- At the very least however, I do believe in a higher being than humans, one that tbh is prob the source/inspiration for almost all long standing religions that have branched and spanned off over the centuries.

Once you get past the politics and strip off all the negative BS, they all kinda preach the same basic ideas and we're not that different really
*waves the 'peace and love' flag around~*
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Old 2009-09-23, 02:10   Link #1923
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Once you get past the politics and strip off all the negative BS, they all kinda preach the same basic ideas and we're not that different really
*waves the 'peace and love' flag around~*
IT'S THE DEVIL!!! KILL HIM!!!!!!!

People are getting too stuck in the mentalities of certain religious people or atheistic/agnostic. This is something that would not change even if religion never existed. There'd always be something to replace it. That's a basic truth that one must realize.

I think the discussion here would have more merit if we discuss logically why we hold certain beliefs (As I think TRL has bene triyng to point out) rather than discussing things that people do to make us hate a particular belief system.
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Old 2009-09-23, 05:40   Link #1924
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
When I think of "purpose" I don't think of "goal in life". I have many goals in life, many things I'd like to do, so many that a lifetime is not enough, but that has nothing to do with "purpose". When I think of "purpose", I think of something that is above it all, something that is there whether you ignore it or not, and something that you cannot escape.

A "goal" compared to that is nothing. And you'd be hard pressed to live without a goal because everyone inevitably dreams of the future. I had a goal even back when I was four years old: I wanted to become a postman! But this has nothing to do with "purpose".
Mere semantics. Answer my questions: What do you believe? What do you commit your life towards? Why?

Whether or not there a "grand design" exists is besides the point. Theists are remarkable for their ability to commit to an ideal. You are free to think that they are deluded, but their strength of conviction is something you clearly lack. Why?

I challenge you to rise above apathy. As an atheist, I presume you believe there is no afterlife. This is your one and only chance at existence. So, what makes your existence worthwhile? Stand and be accountable for your beliefs.

Goals, as you describe them, are ephemeral things. If you haven't found one that you can commit your whole life towards, I'd say this: You have no idea what it means to have faith.

Lacking that understanding, you are in no position to criticise those who struggle to keep faith in the face of insurmountable odds.
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Old 2009-09-23, 06:08   Link #1925
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FYI what I said last page also goes for the meaning of life.

Saying God gives you purpose does not actually give you a purpose. It just makes it easier to go through life with conviction that you have found an answer, regardless of whether or not you know what that answer even means.
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Old 2009-09-23, 06:24   Link #1926
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think the discussion here would have more merit if we discuss logically why we hold certain beliefs (As I think TRL has bene triyng to point out) rather than discussing things that people do to make us hate a particular belief system.
Among different groups with different beliefs, hate is inevitable. Therefore, why not use hate as an implication towards understanding and asking, or maybe even, arguing with each other? I believe that the more we hate each other, the more we're prone to acknowledge each other's existence....and as long as we have that "tiny inch" of respect, we will understand each other because even within conflicts or wars, understanding arises. Now to connect with religion, as long as we're ignorant of each others' beliefs, hate will deepen.


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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post

Whether or not there a "grand design" exists is besides the point. Theists are remarkable for their ability to commit to an ideal. You are free to think that they are deluded, but their strength of conviction is something you clearly lack. Why?

I challenge you to rise above apathy. As an atheist, I presume you believe there is no afterlife. This is your one and only chance at existence. So, what makes your existence worthwhile? Stand and be accountable for your beliefs.

Goals, as you describe them, are ephemeral things. If you haven't found one that you can commit your whole life towards, I'd say this: You have no idea what it means to have faith.

Lacking that understanding, you are in no position to criticise those who struggle to keep faith in the face of insurmountable odds.
I applaud your great understanding but I think this is more of a "practicality vs. intuition" thing. I mean...like I've said before, both atheists and theists are those that actually makes the most use of "faith". Its only a matter of "Darwin Vs. Abraham".

..in an amusing kind of way, I could imply that "non-commitment" is a deep commitment itself.
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Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
Saying God gives you purpose does not actually give you a purpose.
Subjective...
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Old 2009-09-23, 06:34   Link #1927
Cipher
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Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
I believe in nothing, and I find "faith" to be a flaw (that needs to be fixed by getting rid of it).

Why does one have to commit their life towards anything?
how ironic..you yourself are stating your own commitment. Believing in nothing is faith itself.
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Old 2009-09-23, 06:56   Link #1928
Narona
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Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
Why would I start questioning myself on what is purpose of life if I already decided that there is none? It makes asking yourself that question a futile activity. It's simply a waste of time.
Humans are animals, so I guess at the very beginning, we are like any other animals. Trying to perpetuate the species.
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Old 2009-09-23, 07:05   Link #1929
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Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
I believe in nothing, and I find "faith" to be a flaw (that needs to be fixed by getting rid of it).

Why does one have to commit their life towards anything?
To be blunt, that exhibits nothing more than the naivete of callow youth.

Do you know what it means to be responsible for someone other than yourself? What does it mean to commit to a relationship? At a time when marriages fail at the drop of a hat, when material comforts are easily available at the swipe of a credit card, we have been lulled into the complacent belief that everything comes effortlessly, that nothing is worth fighting for any more.

Sure, you don't have to commit yourself to anything. But then you'd be nothing. You'd never grow as an individual. You'd remain selfish to the core, oblivious of your duty to self, family and society. If that's the kind of person you aspire to be, be my guest. But be prepared to never get respect from many people around you.
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Old 2009-09-23, 07:07   Link #1930
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Humans are animals, so I guess at the very beginning, we are like any other animals. Trying to perpetuate the species.
The way each human being behave and think is different from each of his own species. So each person has a different use to society and the world, no matter how small it is.

OT : One of my purposes in life is to make others see how beautiful is the love expressed in yuri, thus I actively campaign and spread the beauty around to create a more loving world for females. That for one, I am making a difference in the world I live. Grandiose as it sounds, but at least I am not sitting around making greenhouse gases to pollute the atmosphere by sitting in front of the screen, breathing and not bothering about the changes around the world.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
To be blunt, that exhibits nothing more than the naivete of callow youth.

Do you know what it means to be responsible for someone other than yourself? What does it mean to commit to a relationship? At a time when marriages fail at the drop of a hat, when material comforts are easily available at the swipe of a credit card, we have been lulled into the complacent belief that everything comes effortlessly, that nothing is worth fighting for any more.

Sure, you don't have to commit yourself to anything. But then you'd be nothing. You'd never grow as an individual. You'd remain selfish to the core, oblivious of your duty to self, family and society. If that's the kind of person you aspire to be, be my guest. But be prepared to never get respect from many people around you.
Interestingly, I find people who enlist in the armed forces tend to wean out of that mentality after going through even the littlest of the shit like outfield. Some of them even share water from the same bottle, those who share out their supply (no matter how little) stop minding after 1 or 2 days. Those who don't, or remain as their selfish selves, are subjected to extreme prejudice.

Maybe it is due to not partaking in a give-and-take relationship, or taking part in the "give" part of the relationship that results in that kind of train of thought.

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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Subjective...
Erm that shouldn't be considered subjective, because it is just a statement without proof or pertinence. In short, it is just something running out of the brain/mouth with little though, a.k.a small-talk.

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Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
I believe in nothing, and I find "faith" to be a flaw (that needs to be fixed by getting rid of it).

Why does one have to commit their life towards anything?
I do agree with your first line to a certain extent, but for your second, I have an answer.

Without a commitment, a person will be like a zombie, no motive, and basically it is nothing but living dead. Why do you wake up? Why do you fall asleep? Why do you even go to school? I think it would be good if you get me some answers to these questions.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2009-09-23 at 07:21.
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Old 2009-09-23, 07:15   Link #1931
Cipher
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
To be blunt, that exhibits nothing more than the naivete of callow youth.

Do you know what it means to be responsible for someone other than yourself? What does it mean to commit to a relationship? At a time when marriages fail at the drop of a hat, when material comforts are easily available at the swipe of a credit card, we have been lulled into the complacent belief that everything comes effortlessly, that nothing is worth fighting for any more.

Sure, you don't have to commit yourself to anything. But then you'd be nothing. You'd never grow as an individual. You'd remain selfish to the core, oblivious of your duty to self, family and society. If that's the kind of person you aspire to be, be my guest. But be prepared to never get respect from many people around you.
You're very practical. But this is very subjective. Respect is valued depending on individuals...yes, its practically useful in the process of life, but how it matters depends. But of course on the instinct of survival, it seems necessary....so considering how humans always aim for survivability...I guess.. yeah, your entirely correct.

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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Erm that shouldn't be considered subjective, because it is just a statement without proof or pertinence. In short, it is just something running out of the brain/mouth with little though, a.k.a small-talk.
Quote:
Saying God gives you purpose does not actually give you a purpose.
I know it may seem childish to argue but my reasons for this argument are deeper than you think they are. It is subjective because of the definition of "purpose". Unrealistic entities ARE able to create realistic purposes...depending on individual. For example, I could say my purpose of existence is because of "Santa", (I want gifts). Illogicality doesn't seem to directly relate to purpose....but yeah..as TRL noted,...mere semantics..

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-23 at 07:58.
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Old 2009-09-23, 07:16   Link #1932
Narona
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The way each human being behave and think is different from each of his own species. So each person has a different use to society and the world, no matter how small it is.

OT : One of my purposes in life is to make others see how beautiful is the love expressed in yuri, thus I actively campaign and spread the beauty around to create a more loving world for females. That for one, I am making a difference in the world I live. Grandiose as it sounds, but at least I am not sitting around making greenhouse gases to pollute the atmosphere by sitting in front of the screen, breathing and not bothering about the changes around the world.
Maybe Humans have evolved to the point of creating their own self-destruction, because perpetuating the species seem to not be a purpose anymore for a lot of people.

I don't think that at the beginning, we were that much different from many other animals.

For example, here in France, there is a documentary in many parts about the life and times of meerkats. It shows three group of Meerkats. Each own has its own ruler, and each meerkat has its own role in this little society. They have rules, and when one of them does something that goes against the group, it has to leave the group etc. They make fights/wars against other groups of meerkat, for the territories etc.

That really remind me humans when I watch this documentary.

The big difference, I think, is that those animals don't choose to perpetuate the species or not. They do it as something innate.
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Old 2009-09-23, 07:39   Link #1933
SaintessHeart
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Maybe Humans have evolved to the point of creating their own self-destruction, because perpetuating the species seem to not be a purpose anymore for a lot of people.
Come to think of it, I figured that out back in early secondary school, and I guessed it caused my severe slip in grades and learning interest (this it what is means by smart people bring upon destruction on themselves).

The reason why humans are on the verge of becoming humus (pun intended) is because they are lost. Given so many options in the developed society, and everything seemingly (un)attainable, they eventually ask themselves, "What the f*** am I doing this for?". Everything they have done are pointless to themselves, metaphorically, they find that their lives revolve around searching a needle in the haystack, and their thinking is probably one of the below :

1. What am I going to do with the needle when I find it?

2. What is the use of the needle for me?

3. What benefit will I get from finding the needle?

4. Is there a need to find the needle?

5. Who am I doing this for?

etc - etc.

These are the people, who stand on the shades of black and white. Another group, IMO who are slightly better,will be standing on the fringes of grey and not knowing which side to take (i.e lost). In the long run, it becomes tiring and they do not want anything anymore, some lead their lives in monotone under the conception of "I must keep doing this" or "Why bother with anything else?" while others choose hastened perdition (suicide / homicide).

Though I don't believe in any fixed omnipotent entity or fantastical ideal, I do believe in luck and not looking back in regret in everything one has done or not done. The former being the ONLY way to get 100% or beyond, and the latter being that every experience, no matter bad or good, is a step to finding a purpose and use for that needle, whether one finds it or not.

Instead of standing there and brooding about it, why not do something about it? Random is not a bad way to start, after thinking about all that, what will you fear?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-09-23, 08:00   Link #1934
Liddo-kun
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post

On the same note, I challenge atheists to think carefully about what life truly means for them. What does life mean for them, in an existence without purpose? If life has no purpose, what's stopping them from ending it all, on the spot? Why do they bother taking up scarce space and resources which others can make better use of?
Hardly a challenge.

I work 8 hrs for 6 days each week to earn money for a comfortable future for me and my family, that is one purpose.
Another is to enjoy life as much as possible of course.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2009-09-23 at 08:54.
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Old 2009-09-23, 08:04   Link #1935
Cipher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The reason why humans are on the verge of becoming humus (pun intended) is because they are lost. Given so many options in the developed society, and everything seemingly (un)attainable, they eventually ask themselves, "What the f*** am I doing this for?". Everything they have done are pointless to themselves, metaphorically, they find that their lives revolve around searching a needle in the haystack, and their thinking is probably one of the below :

1. What am I going to do with the needle when I find it?

2. What is the use of the needle for me?

3. What benefit will I get from finding the needle?

4. Is there a need to find the needle?

5. Who am I doing this for?

etc - etc.

These are the people, who stand on the shades of black and white. Another group, IMO who are slightly better,will be standing on the fringes of grey and not knowing which side to take (i.e lost). In the long run, it becomes tiring and they do not want anything anymore, some lead their lives in monotone under the conception of "I must keep doing this" or "Why bother with anything else?" while others choose hastened perdition (suicide / homicide).
The statement of someone who is well-fed and succeeds above basic needs....Like I've said, realistically, this is not "most" people, this is the minority.(overall historically) The majority cares for food not religion; he/she cares for shelter not for purpose. The "supported" seems to lack this realization---a sign of humanity's natural selfish tendencies:not a good thing but also not a bad thing.(IMO)
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Old 2009-09-23, 08:13   Link #1936
Slice of Life
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TinyRedLeaf, you seem to have taken over the role of the sow scolding her piglets "Why don't you fly like the other pigs?" The only valid answer I can give is the other pigs don't fly either.

First, you're putting believers on a pedestal where they don't belong and declare that case closed. In your view, large parts of humanity seem to be some kind of pocket philosophers in a 24/7 intellectual struggle with their relationship to God who at the same time easlly find their motivation to help (why not harm?) others in their religion. (Shouldn't blind, fanatical faith be much more motivating?) And then you ask the atheists why they don't live up to that strange picture.

It's obvious that you spent more thoughts on the meaning of life than most people here. And in that regard you are certainly capable of outsmarting people who have just started their adult life, if at all. But instead just stamping answers with "wrong, try again" why aren't you trying to give us some insights. Maybe you're just trying the Socratic method here, but that doesn't seem to work out, maybe due to your biased starting point which you are not willing to question, or the absence of worthy opponents, but most likely both.
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Old 2009-09-23, 08:23   Link #1937
Cipher
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TinyRedLeaf, you seem to have taken over the role of the sow scolding her piglets "Why don't you fly like the other pigs?" The only valid answer I can give is the other pigs don't fly either.

First, you're putting believers on a pedestal where they don't belong and declare that case closed. In your view, large parts of humanity seem to be some kind of pocket philosophers in a 24/7 intellectual struggle with their relationship to God who at the same time easlly find their motivation to help (why not harm?) others in their religion. (Shouldn't blind, fanatical faith be much more motivating?) And then you ask the atheists why they don't live up to that strange picture.

It's obvious that you spent more thoughts on the meaning of life than most people here are you and in that regard you are certainly capable of outsmarting people who have just started their adult life, if at all. But instead just stamping answers with "wrong, try again" why aren't you trying to give us some insights. Maybe you're just trying the Socratic method here, but that doesn't seem to work out, maybe due to your biased starting point which you are not willing to question, or the absence of worthy opponents, but most likely both.
I'll try to take a jab at this sudden attack using the pig example. The truth is....the other pigs do fly---its just hard to notice. And the piglet who doesn't want to fly will and is actually flying---its just hard to notice. What the sow is doing is making the process faster or more easily realized. Um, it seems rather vague so I'll try to explain. If the pigs don't fly, someone will eat them, in other words, the importance of "faith" really goes down to the original core of humanity: survivability.


(and I think fly can also mean run).
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Old 2009-09-23, 10:02   Link #1938
Cipher
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Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
What does not committing yourself to anything has to do with selfishness? And what does it have to do with purpose in life?
A person's Commitment represents many underlying personalities and attributes of that person. The more agreeable your commitment is to others; the more your likely to be liked and, therefore, "survive." An "unliked" commitment, however, will do the exact opposite. It'll endanger your safety: social and physical health-wise. It really doesn't have anything to do with purpose in life. There is no life w/o purpose..for having no purpose is a purpose itself...a purpose to not have purpose; its a paradox.(I'd really liked someone to help me with this one.)

If you're talking about selfishness, everyone is. Even helping others is a form of selfishness; a type of self-interest. People really do things for themselves(note: i didn't use "others") not because they want others to feel good but because they want to make themselves feel good. But for "selfless" people, its usually a direct relationship: helping others=helping themselves.
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Well, that's the obvious answer, but whenever it comes to questions on what is purpose of life no one ever seems to be content with that one so I've come to consider it as something that isn't fit to count as a "purpose".
I'm pretty sure I am....well ok, perhaps not, its too "radical" and too "conflicting" with my own personal views--no offense. If you value your survivability, which I'm pretty sure you do, learn to have faith(in others and in anything else)---which I'm also pretty sure you're unconsciously doing. So there's no problem at all, you just have to realize it.


Quote:
Huh? Why? I'm beginning to think that "commitment" you people are talking about is not the "commitment" I am thinking about.
Commitment...Discipline perhaps? Everyone has that... ....this is really a clear evidence of "independent word definitions".

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-23 at 10:15.
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Old 2009-09-23, 10:05   Link #1939
kakakka
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Quote:
There is no life w/o purpose..for having no purpose is a purpose itself...a purpose to not have purpose; its a paradox.(I'd really liked someone to help me with this one.)
Being alive (keeping oneself alive) is purpose itself.
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Old 2009-09-23, 11:36   Link #1940
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
The statement of someone who is well-fed and succeeds above basic needs....Like I've said, realistically, this is not "most" people, this is the minority.(overall historically) The majority cares for food not religion; he/she cares for shelter not for purpose. The "supported" seems to lack this realization---a sign of humanity's natural selfish tendencies:not a good thing but also not a bad thing.(IMO)
Erm if you read carefully, I included the unattainable within my statement. What I am basically saying is that most of our decisions are made by views soaked in black or white. A child soldier in Sierra Leone might feel that same way because he feels that he had no choice. What I have written is a generic mentality set which actually applies to most, if not all. The needle doesn't symbolise achieving a goal, it simply symbolises purpose in life as defined by one. There are so many ways to find the needle (metal detector, raiding, etc), but it is still up to one to choose.

Fantgirl, I think you really need to define your commitment, we have lots of people throwing words in here and it begins to derail into something which looks like a mess.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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