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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 11 25.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 18 40.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 22.73%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.27%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-08-21, 01:29   Link #241
Ultima_Rasengan05
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I've got a little question about this episode...back in episode 17, Nove couldn't tell from Teana's Kage Bushins which was real and which were just illusions.
Now, from the looks of it, Nove seems to have gotten an upgrade which allows her to tell which is the illusion and which is the real person casting the magic illusions...was that a small upgrade that she did to herself before this battle began?
Anyways, if I remembered correctly also, Nove wanted revenge at Teana for making a fool out of her by creating all of those illusions of the forwards and escaping danger in episode 17. Maybe thats why Nove sticked to tracking down Teana and defeating her before she goes off to fighting Subaru.
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Old 2007-08-21, 01:40   Link #242
Fabien
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Wow... I've seen threads with lots of posts, but not with posts that long.

There is one theory you have forgotten: suppose Hayate knows that this is MGLN? She knows that the Good Guys *will* win, so from her point of vue, it's better to attack on all fronts.
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Old 2007-08-21, 01:44   Link #243
Fabien
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Did you read the first message of this thread?

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Old 2007-08-21, 01:45   Link #244
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Did you read the first message of this thread?
heh sorry about that....I'll go edit and delete that part...
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Old 2007-08-21, 01:56   Link #245
Fabien
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Maybe thats why Nove sticked to tracking down Teana and defeating her before she goes off to fighting Subaru.
I think the Numbers perfectly understood that it's better to let Ginga take care of Subaru.
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Old 2007-08-21, 02:03   Link #246
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yeah, since they're both sisters, rather have them fight it out between them and just focus on tracking down the forwards and then eventually regrouping and going for the Aces as well.
But as for Ginga vs. Subaru, I don't think Subaru will go all out against her...I mean she is her sister and she doesn't want her to die from her own hands, but since Ginga has no recollection of Subaru being an important person in her life, she'll go all out in her battle.
As for Teana's battle, she has it worse than anyone out in the battlefield right now. But she has tactics and if she is smart enough to hide the Relic under Caro's hat back and nonetheless made the Numbers look stupid in episode 12, then she can get out of this mess and leave the Numbers looking all "WTF just happened".
I'm all in for Yuuno and Arf helping out in this battle....Arf looks determined to help out, but Yuuno seems to be somewhat, rebelling against the idea.
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Old 2007-08-21, 02:20   Link #247
Burner of Anime
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Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05 View Post
I've got a little question about this episode...back in episode 17, Nove couldn't tell from Teana's Kage Bushins which was real and which were just illusions.
Now, from the looks of it, Nove seems to have gotten an upgrade which allows her to tell which is the illusion and which is the real person casting the magic illusions...was that a small upgrade that she did to herself before this battle began?
Anyways, if I remembered correctly also, Nove wanted revenge at Teana for making a fool out of her by creating all of those illusions of the forwards and escaping danger in episode 17. Maybe thats why Nove sticked to tracking down Teana and defeating her before she goes off to fighting Subaru.
Nah, I think here she just filtered out the clones with the fake attacks and zeroed in on the one that really hurt

From the Numbers point of view, the good thing about this is that the poor girl just can't attack as often.

The bad, the moment she does it's going to have to be a killing blow

I really feel sad for any of the Numbers the moment Teana gets the chance to pull it off. The really sick thing about it is that the writing appears to favour something like this occuring for her to capitalise...
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Old 2007-08-21, 02:48   Link #248
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Nah, I think here she just filtered out the clones with the fake attacks and zeroed in on the one that really hurt

From the Numbers point of view, the good thing about this is that the poor girl just can't attack as often.

The bad, the moment she does it's going to have to be a killing blow

I really feel sad for any of the Numbers the moment Teana gets the chance to pull it off. The really sick thing about it is that the writing appears to favour something like this occuring for her to capitalise...
For some reason, I can't help but think that the situation that Teana is in right now, its somewhat similar to Metal Gear Solid...I mean all the enemies are on high alert for Teana to come out of hiding, but she's hiding to come up with tactics and strategies to out smart those Numbers.
But I think no matter what Teana comes up with, it might not be that effective against the numbers. But she has surprised everyone with her Relic trick, so I'm convinced she will show off something quite unexpected...
Unless Cross Mirage has one last mode and lets hope that to be a sniper version than its dagger counterpart.
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:03   Link #249
Fabien
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But as for Ginga vs. Subaru, I don't think Subaru will go all out against her...
Yep. After all, she can damage a few of Ginga's limbs, in order to disable her, and after a few days Banana Girl will be as good as new.
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:07   Link #250
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Well, but they haven't been able to do these things. Their opposition has definitely used mobility, surprise, and deception to their great advantage to date - Jail's operating with a few advantages (namely, the other side not knowing about his force composition or objectives), but he's also out-generaling Hayate and indeed the whole TSAB. If RF6 is going to win at this point, it's going to have to rely on the individual superiority of their forces - just can't be helped. It's -too late- to fight smart.

The key thing about concentrating your forces at the decisive point is that you need to identify the decisive point. Hayate simply doesn't have the information required to make that determination with certainty. Is the Cradle the decisive point? Entirely possible (probable, even), but it's also the most dangerous - the one that's most likely to trap your forces against it and leave everything else uncovered, or possibly even wipe them ALL out; nobody's really sure how much of a threat that sucker is.

Is Jail's HQ the decisive point? Possibly - if they can force a surrender, the rest of it might not matter. But it could also be pointless to attack there. If most of his forces are already in motion, and there's no big "off" switch, then all you're going to bag is a loon, a secretary, and a bunch of empty drone-warehouses (plus the Numbers' spare undergarments, I guess.)

Is the big drone-cloud decisive? Certainly, current military doctrine emphasizes air superiority as a primary objective of any battle. If Jail gets total air superiority, it becomes very hard for the TSAB forces to coordinate and move. (This isn't so important in our calculations, since we've already decided that Hayate's not really suited for the other tasks anyway, and this is the one at which she excels beyond any of the others.)

Is the loose band of Numbers a decisive point? Probably not, compared to the rest. Thus, they're being countered with relatively light units. You can argue that it's better to ignore them altogether, which I could live with. But obviously they're up to something, and not only that, they're up to it in the middle of the big enemy operation. Presumably their target is worth the force dilution their absence represents! So you need at least token forces against them, right?
It's never too late to fight smart, desperately trying to cover every front at the same time with inadequate forces is the way to lose.

I've already posted my view on a possible strategy. Hayate and air grunts take care of the drones while the main forces neutralize Numbers/Lulu team ASAP. Meanwhile Acous could keep scouting around the Doc's Lab as he's already there. When the first threat is dealt with (shouldn't really take long with RF6 both outnumbering and outclassing the opponents) we have a much more considerable force capable of assaulting the Lab (and seriously, make Shamal teleport them there or use the battleship for that, what's it doing anyway?) and at least one more team member to attack the Cradle, probably two more (with Reinforce II). When Doc's also been taken care of more reinforcements could engage the Cradle as well.
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:09   Link #251
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Well, but they haven't been able to do these things. Their opposition has definitely used mobility, surprise, and deception to their great advantage to date - Jail's operating with a few advantages (namely, the other side not knowing about his force composition or objectives), but he's also out-generaling Hayate and indeed the whole TSAB. If RF6 is going to win at this point, it's going to have to rely on the individual superiority of their forces - just can't be helped. It's -too late- to fight smart.
It is amazing how an analysis can be so astute and yet the conclusion so incorrect. She doesn't have the resources to fight dumb.

Quote:
The key thing about concentrating your forces at the decisive point is that you need to identify the decisive point. Hayate simply doesn't have the information required to make that determination with certainty.
Where you cannot identify a decisive point, you systematically work to eliminate possibilities. Normally, you'd use reconaissance, but it is too late for that, so you adapt and use physical elimination. Splitting up means you aren't dealing with any of the points, whether they are "decisive" or not. Having a decisive point of your own means that you can annihilate at least some of the problems, and by using the correct sequence you can cover all the possibilities before the time limit.

Quote:
Is the loose band of Numbers a decisive point? Probably not, compared to the rest. Thus, they're being countered with relatively light units. You can argue that it's better to ignore them altogether, which I could live with. But obviously they're up to something, and not only that, they're up to it in the middle of the big enemy operation. Presumably their target is worth the force dilution their absence represents! So you need at least token forces against them, right?
Actually, it demands a short presence with full force to decisively eliminate them. No more worries about losing or casualties from this direction. No more worrying that this is the decisive sector.

Quote:
Is Jail's HQ the decisive point? Possibly - if they can force a surrender, the rest of it might not matter. But it could also be pointless to attack there. If most of his forces are already in motion, and there's no big "off" switch, then all you're going to bag is a loon, a secretary, and a bunch of empty drone-warehouses (plus the Numbers' spare undergarments, I guess.)
A very likely decisive point. A little harder than Capital Team, but still very crushable in a concentrated effort. Even if it isn't, now at least he can't designate new Decisive Sectors of his own, and you've got only one to go and between 1.5-2 hours to do it. Raid Scarlietti's refrigerator for fast drinks - you need a break and be at your best before the Final Battle.

Quote:
Is the Cradle the decisive point? Entirely possible (probable, even), but it's also the most dangerous - the one that's most likely to trap your forces against it and leave everything else uncovered, or possibly even wipe them ALL out; nobody's really sure how much of a threat that sucker is.

Is the big drone-cloud decisive? Certainly, current military doctrine emphasizes air superiority as a primary objective of any battle. If Jail gets total air superiority, it becomes very hard for the TSAB forces to coordinate and move. (This isn't so important in our calculations, since we've already decided that Hayate's not really suited for the other tasks anyway, and this is the one at which she excels beyond any of the others.)
This, at least, is really one objective. In fact, the fighter drones seem to be scrambling to protect the Cradle rather than trying to carry out bombing missions of their own. Even if they weren't, since they are launching from the Cradle, a rapid solution to the problem is to disable the Cradle. They might even locate the hangar bay and crack it.

So, rapid attack, open or find hole, move in. Should we bring Hayate? You two think no, I think yes. Because I don't think you are framing the problem right. This is not really a close combat problem. Remember that our purpose is still to destroy the ship. Internal compartmentalization rarely has the resillence of external armor, so when you are in, you are in the prime position to destroy the ship.

Have Hayate do her drone cleaning, but on the inside, killing drones and gutting the ship as much as possible, cutting a path to Vivio. With so much internal damage, she might well short out the internal AMF defense as an unexpected side benefit. Reduce power as you get closer to Vivio. Basically the artillery unit is covering the advance of the infantry till the very last feasible moment. This avoids a lot of close-combat slogging. Don't worry too much if you screw the procedure up slightly - thanks to Dieci, we know Vivio's tough and won't die just because we engulfed her a bit.

Finally we might consider splitting up, which is actually only possible because we've been keeping everyone as a fist up until this time. Reverse with half the infantry and start blasting towards the reactor. Everyone else grabs Vivio and catch up. Depending on reactor type either destroy with firepower or try and shut it down by hand. If neither looks feasible start blasting away around the reactor so it is not connected to the guns or engines (reserve some power for this).

Oh, and do something about any drones still in the hangar bay, too. With all that done, anybody that's still up to it can go back to cleaning out the air drones with help from the Fleet's mages.

Now, to think about my Court Martial defense for Ep17... maybe the fact I handled Ep21 well would help me...
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:18   Link #252
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I agree that during the final assault on the Cradle Hayate should also be brought in, it's just that while the previous objectives are cleared she could be taking care of the aerial drones (depending on their behavior of course, if they're only defending the Cradle there'll be no point to bother with them before attacking it).
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:29   Link #253
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Maybe, maybe not. Her energy resources are not infinite (and she can't unburden the load onto cartridges), and blasting flying drones while they are scattered in the air is not an efficient use of her ammo stockpiles. I'm not only looking at time. I'm also looking at our guys likely energy expenditure. In any case, if the situation's right (they are out in the open relatively close together) I want her to fire on the Numbers. Maybe then we can kill them in 10 seconds (one blast) and start working on Zest.
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:37   Link #254
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Maybe, maybe not. Her energy resources are not infinite (and she can't unburden the load onto cartridges), and blasting flying drones while they are scattered in the air is not an efficient use of her ammo stockpiles. I'm not only looking at time. I'm also looking at our guys likely energy expenditure. In any case, if the situation's right (they are out in the open relatively close together) I want her to fire on the Numbers. Maybe then we can kill them in 10 seconds (one blast) and start working on Zest.
Well, if the drones are actively attacking something they'll probably have to be dealt with. If they're relatively passive then the forces should be moved to other objectives indeed.
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Old 2007-08-21, 03:40   Link #255
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OK, if we really must stop the drones flying out, Plan B is that Nanoha does the bombardment shoot with a Wide Angle Divine Buster Extension / Excelion Buster (she did one against Fate according to the novel ten years back). Hayate is to do what she can against the drones at a sustainable rate of fire (I don't want to see her panting until we start the Cradle Attack).

Update:
Spoiler for From FLSnow Fansub:


Operationally, those planes can do no more than Bomb and Strafe and are thus of only tactical importance when a world is as stake. Nevertheless, we may have to consider executing Plan B. Whatever happens, though, there cannot be a severe power depletion of the aces.\

In other comments on the second watching:
Spoiler for Pacing:


Spoiler for Splitting Up:


At this point, I'm convinced that if they could split themselves into quarters and halves, right now we would be having about 4 Vitas and 8 Nanohas, all at A rank (the very minimum for prolonged projection of a full-sized human form, and that not too comfortably), of which only 1 Vita will be headed to the core, 1 Nanoha to Vivio and the rest be trying to cover even more fronts...

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Old 2007-08-21, 10:25   Link #256
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All I have to say about the matter of having to find and attack the key point is that this works better in preset combat and in turn-based games like chess and go. In these cases you can examine your situation before you go on the offensive. The Numbers have already annihilated several major keys and prepared for many others. By the time anyone was even in a position to discover the "key point" they had already been placed in a hopeless defensive position.
In such a position, defense is pointless, even merely to buy time while the general looks for weaknesses. For that matter, you can't find weaknesses without engaging the main force. All you can do is dive straight in, do as much damage as possible, and hope you can come up with something on the way.
Put another way, it is a terrible disgrace to draw one's sword before one knows the situation, but it is even worse to leave one's sword sheathed until one has lost every chance to change it.
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Old 2007-08-21, 11:10   Link #257
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Nooo someone tell me my Vita-chan lives forever

And lol, I love this forum. This thread has alot of long posts. You guys sure know how to waste my time

I eagerly await the next episode, Vivio need more screen time

/me hides from all the "lolitron" barrage's
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Old 2007-08-21, 11:14   Link #258
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The only screen time she's likely to be having till Ep26 will be ones where she suffers, crying for mommy, being transformed into a monster ... nothing good.
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Old 2007-08-21, 11:43   Link #259
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All I have to say about the matter of having to find and attack the key point is that this works better in preset combat and in turn-based games like chess and go. In these cases you can examine your situation before you go on the offensive.
That analogy is simply wrong. Any decent set of military doctrine accepts and embraces that uncertainty will always be present on the battlefield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truppenfuehrung (Troop Command), 1933

3. Combat situations are of an unlimited variety. They change frequently and suddenly and can seldom be assessed in advance. Incalculable elements often have a decisive influence. One's own will is pitted against the independent will of the enemy. Friction and errors are daily occurrences.
It is rarely possible to obtain exact information on the enemy situation. Better a faulty plan or decision permeated with boldness, daring, and decisiveness, than a perfect plan unmeshed with uncertainty. It is through attack that the unclarified situation can best be clarified, and a basis reached, upon which the commander can best estimate their future action.

The plan used in episode 21, and I use that word loosely, is neither, bold, daring nor decisive. It plays very nicely with Jail's force dispositions and isn't strong enough at any point. Once they did attack and get a better idea of the enemy situation, they did nothing to adapt to the changing situation and have no plans to do so. They've left themselves with no reserves.

Quote:
The Numbers have already annihilated several major keys and prepared for many others. By the time anyone was even in a position to discover the "key point" they had already been placed in a hopeless defensive position.
Who said anything about defense? The best way to avoid defeat is to plan on how you're going to win. It isn't your enemy doesn't who chooses the decisive point for your attack. It's you. You can choose it as fast as it needs to be chosen and allocate your forces accordingly.

Quote:
In such a position, defense is pointless, even merely to buy time while the general looks for weaknesses. For that matter, you can't find weaknesses without engaging the main force. All you can do is dive straight in, do as much damage as possible, and hope you can come up with something on the way.
By splitting your forces evenly, you're ensuring they do the least possible damage to the enemy and that they do the most they can to yours.

Quote:
Put another way, it is a terrible disgrace to draw one's sword before one knows the situation, but it is even worse to leave one's sword sheathed until one has lost every chance to change it.
The point of launching an attack on an enemy is in order to defeat them. The attacker has the initiative. Launching an attack that is not going to defeat the enemy or help the main force defeat the enemy is worse than not attacking at all. Once you use up those units, they're not going to come back.

As a commander, what should be more important to you? Should it be the chance you may later have personal regrets or should it be the mission and the well-being of the men and women under your command?
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Old 2007-08-21, 17:19   Link #260
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Nooo someone tell me my Vita-chan lives forever

And lol, I love this forum. This thread has alot of long posts. You guys sure know how to waste my time

I eagerly await the next episode, Vivio need more screen time

/me hides from all the "lolitron" barrage's
Bah, she has even screentime already... Besides, she does nothing anyway.


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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The only screen time she's likely to be having till Ep26 will be ones where she suffers, crying for mommy, being transformed into a monster ... nothing good.
We're not even sure about the monster part... And if/when it does happen, isn't it considered a good thing?
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