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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 11 25.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 18 40.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 22.73%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.27%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-08-20, 00:48   Link #141
Rava
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I don't think anybody reasonably thinks the two of them hadn't picked up this useful, common skill over 10 years of service. I bet Seven Arcs will be destroyed if they tried to imply the two of them don't know it.

For another thing, they do have a very beautiful ship, the Asura.

Shamal was transporting one-third of a very large mass (the Book of Darkness). It stands to reason that a few humans ain't a big pain.

Even if I agree to this asinine scenario, at the very very least the guys who can teleport can still move around to weigh the efforts, speeding them up in turn.
Keep in mind here that I am simply trying to point out the severe limitations Seven Arcs appears to be putting on teleportation. I'm not trying to say that the current strategy they are using is good, but that "They can always teleport" really shouldn't be used as the crutch to be everywhere at once. Even if they COULD all teleport, all of the instances of teleportation have shown that it's basically like taking a freeway/highway over local streets. You will get there much faster, but you will still take time to get there.
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Old 2007-08-20, 00:51   Link #142
An Hero in Disguise
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Originally Posted by Fabien View Post
Seems like it won't be that easy for the Forwards to obliterate the Numbers. And if, by that time, Fate still has trouble with Jail's defense, I don't think the Forwards will make much of a difference.
I'm talking about the case of another distribution of RF6 forces, namely combined assault on the Numbers/Lulu and proceeding with the remaining objectives afterwards.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
We are not talking interdimensional transport. We are talking intradimensional transport using the Asura's very close by transporters.
Exactly like they teleported in the first season, that didn't look complicated at all.
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Old 2007-08-20, 00:51   Link #143
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Yeah, I did notice. But then, Lutecia seems to have no problems with teleportation or knowing how to use it to her side's advantage.

I do expect some time loss from all the teleports (though not much because the distances don't seem that great), but by using concentrated blows, I can easily make up for the lost time because I can storm through my enemies instead of slogging ahead. In fact, it may be that I can just have them fly around instead of teleporting and still save time on the back end.
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:00   Link #144
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Yeah, I did notice. But then, Lutecia seems to have no problems with teleportation or knowing how to use it to her side's advantage.

[...]
Agreed. And the excuse they used for Lutecia was what Caro said about being good at transport magics because she's a powerful summoner.

It was a little humorous reading that because it was like Caro indirectly saying "That summoner can do that? Geez, I suck compared to her."
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:02   Link #145
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It is not so much that she's good in it in a technical sense - I can buy that being a side effect of summoning proficiency. After all what is summoning but teleporting something you need right over?

What I'm really bothered is that she's the only one in the show that has an inkling of the tactical possibilities? 3D envelope maneuvers, anyone?
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:05   Link #146
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I haven't really seen her summon/transport something midair--just on a surface. Sure, the thing she summons can fly, but the summoning square seems like it always appeared at ground level. That would imply that she can't, I'd think. Of course maybe I'm missing a shot where she does do so...
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:11   Link #147
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The third "D" here refers to the transportation plane instead of the vertical. Perhaps I should have called it "teleportation envelopment".
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:13   Link #148
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What I'm really bothered is that she's the only one in the show that has an inkling of the tactical possibilities? 3D envelope maneuvers, anyone?
I was definitely thinking of vertical envelopment. You could teleport the Aces well, well above a target outside of typical AMFs and higher than drone max altitudes if possible.
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:30   Link #149
Avatar_notADV
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There's an element nobody's mentioned so far, and it's an artifact of us as the fans knowing more than Hayate in the context of the show.

How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve" any more than seeing Dieci back when let them say "okay, that means there's only ten".

So Hayate can't assume they can insta-pwn any of the targets. Even if they have a good count of how many Numbers there are in the loose group, at least one of the Numbers can fool the hell out of TSAB's sensor gear, and dropping in expecting five Numbers and coming up against twenty would really ruin anyone's day. Sure, they'd win... but would they win in time to wheel on the drones? AND Jail? AND the Cradle?

Also, Hayate doesn't have to win the war with less than a platoon of forces. There really are other mages in the TSAB, there's a huge-ass armada, there's more S's out there than a Slytherin convention if they all get together. All she has to do (if we're assuming nobody's smart enough to insta-warp her a huge amount of reinforcements) is hold out until the conventional forces show up, at which point they can zerg away. So it's not essential that all the Numbers get bagged by the forwards, that Jail is apprehended, that the drones are all smashed, that the Cradle is sunk, so much as it's essential that the Numbers don't accomplish their mission, Jail doesn't flee, the Cradle doesn't become Castle Invincible, before the reinforcements arrive. For that, spreading out the defensive forces really is the best policy.

Spreading out isn't the best policy from a force-conservation perspective, nor if Hayate's isolated and getting no help. But RF6 isn't a conventional unit, force conservation is NOT its overriding goal (and, bluntly, Hayate's career wouldn't survive abandoning defense of an urban area regardless of what happened afterwards, if we can ascribe a base motive to her as well as noble ones like not wanting lots of civilians to die.)

It's not weird that she's got the perspective of a first-responder in an emergency, rather than a general in charge of several divisions; that's what Hayate put RF6 together for in the first place, right?
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Old 2007-08-20, 01:37   Link #150
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
There's an element nobody's mentioned so far, and it's an artifact of us as the fans knowing more than Hayate in the context of the show.

How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve" any more than seeing Dieci back when let them say "okay, that means there's only ten".

So Hayate can't assume they can insta-pwn any of the targets. Even if they have a good count of how many Numbers there are in the loose group, at least one of the Numbers can fool the hell out of TSAB's sensor gear, and dropping in expecting five Numbers and coming up against twenty would really ruin anyone's day. Sure, they'd win... but would they win in time to wheel on the drones? AND Jail? AND the Cradle?

Also, Hayate doesn't have to win the war with less than a platoon of forces. There really are other mages in the TSAB, there's a huge-ass armada, there's more S's out there than a Slytherin convention if they all get together. All she has to do (if we're assuming nobody's smart enough to insta-warp her a huge amount of reinforcements) is hold out until the conventional forces show up, at which point they can zerg away. So it's not essential that all the Numbers get bagged by the forwards, that Jail is apprehended, that the drones are all smashed, that the Cradle is sunk, so much as it's essential that the Numbers don't accomplish their mission, Jail doesn't flee, the Cradle doesn't become Castle Invincible, before the reinforcements arrive. For that, spreading out the defensive forces really is the best policy.

Spreading out isn't the best policy from a force-conservation perspective, nor if Hayate's isolated and getting no help. But RF6 isn't a conventional unit, force conservation is NOT its overriding goal (and, bluntly, Hayate's career wouldn't survive abandoning defense of an urban area regardless of what happened afterwards, if we can ascribe a base motive to her as well as noble ones like not wanting lots of civilians to die.)

It's not weird that she's got the perspective of a first-responder in an emergency, rather than a general in charge of several divisions; that's what Hayate put RF6 together for in the first place, right?
The difference is that you're talking about better defensive strategy while we're assuming RF6 is on the offensive.
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:16   Link #151
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Honestly, I don't understand why Nanoha does not blame Hayate for what happened... if she had evaced Vivio to a more secure location, we wouldn't be having Ep18-26!
Well, apparently Nanoha did think that Vivio wasn't at risk. Why would she blame Hayate for having the same opinion?
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:17   Link #152
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It was a little humorous reading that because it was like Caro indirectly saying "That summoner can do that? Geez, I suck compared to her."
As a matter of fact, Caro is not a good summoner. She can summon her Guardian Dragon/God, Voltaire, but that's all.
She's a decent support mage though.
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:19   Link #153
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
I haven't really seen her summon/transport something midair--just on a surface. Sure, the thing she summons can fly, but the summoning square seems like it always appeared at ground level. That would imply that she can't, I'd think. Of course maybe I'm missing a shot where she does do so...
Caro summoned Friedich Dragon Soul mid air in Epi 6, and has been doing that ever since...
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:25   Link #154
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
There's an element nobody's mentioned so far, and it's an artifact of us as the fans knowing more than Hayate in the context of the show.

How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve" any more than seeing Dieci back when let them say "okay, that means there's only ten".

So Hayate can't assume they can insta-pwn any of the targets. Even if they have a good count of how many Numbers there are in the loose group, at least one of the Numbers can fool the hell out of TSAB's sensor gear, and dropping in expecting five Numbers and coming up against twenty would really ruin anyone's day. Sure, they'd win... but would they win in time to wheel on the drones? AND Jail? AND the Cradle?
1) If this really happened and it were only the forwards, they'd be basically dead. Somehow, I don't think this is a very acceptable solution.
2) For that matter, the potential for such a nasty surprise is present for every prong. In fact, intelligence on the ground-pounding team is already the most certain - you can't even see anything of Scarlietti HQ's or Cradle's defences. In such a case, dispersed, they won't just be fighting at a disfavorable CoF, they'd be destroyed in a minute. If you are thinking this way and you think that all objectives need to be handled, the best chance of achieving objectivies in face of surprises or even just mere survival is still to stick together.

Quote:
Also, Hayate doesn't have to win the war with less than a platoon of forces. There really are other mages in the TSAB, there's a huge-ass armada, there's more S's out there than a Slytherin convention if they all get together.
I got the feeling that when Zest said "over-S" in Ep17, he's referring to our aces. Given how shocked Regius was at hearing a SS was on the ground forces, it would seem that S-ranked are between low and non-existent in the GF. I definitely don't see them vigorously coming out to the Ep17 combat.

Ordinary Ground Force mages are even more useless than the guys Vita pawned in Ep1 of A's. If they were any good, the Numbers prong could have been left to them, but they are useless.

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All she has to do (if we're assuming nobody's smart enough to insta-warp her a huge amount of reinforcements) is hold out until the conventional forces show up, at which point they can zerg away.
That'd be the fleet. It is at least 3 hours away.

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So it's not essential that all the Numbers get bagged by the forwards, that Jail is apprehended, that the drones are all smashed, that the Cradle is sunk, so much as it's essential that the Numbers don't accomplish their mission, Jail doesn't flee, the Cradle doesn't become Castle Invincible, before the reinforcements arrive. For that, spreading out the defensive forces really is the best policy.
Actually, it is a horrible mistake. Assuming no horrible traps like you envisaged up there, Jail is currently free to flee or stay. The Cradle continues its advance and poor Vita gets p3wned. The Numbers inflict heavy casualties on our Forwards and may soon be able to resume their advance. All because insufficient force is brought on all fronts.

Quote:
Spreading out isn't the best policy from a force-conservation perspective, nor if Hayate's isolated and getting no help. But RF6 isn't a conventional unit, force conservation is NOT its overriding goal (and, bluntly, Hayate's career wouldn't survive abandoning defense of an urban area regardless of what happened afterwards, if we can ascribe a base motive to her as well as noble ones like not wanting lots of civilians to die.)
Cold laugh: Her career was trashed in Ep17, if we assume any realism in the TSAB... perhaps they would have a court martial in Sound Stage 3 (since there's no way they are doing it in Ep26). Would like to hear her explain all this...

Quote:
It's not weird that she's got the perspective of a first-responder in an emergency, rather than a general in charge of several divisions; that's what Hayate put RF6 together for in the first place, right?
A first responder does triage, evaluating his cases in terms of severity and stabilization completion times and then does at least basic stabilization procedures in turn. He doesn't try to hastily (and ineffectually) stop 3 chest wounds on 3 patients by pressing an appendage onto each wound. He tries to stabilize one patient, then turn on the other.
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:30   Link #155
Rava
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Caro summoned Friedich Dragon Soul mid air in Epi 6, and has been doing that ever since...
Yes, Caro does.

I'm talking Lutecia though...
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:35   Link #156
Kha
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
Yes, Caro does.

I'm talking Lutecia though...
Oh carp what a big mindfart.

I think she could summon Garyuu mid air... Now if only Garyuu isn't always running around fully summoned we'd have a better example.
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:42   Link #157
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I think Lutecia can summon while in mid-air...

The gravity around her becomes 0.6 of Earth's, or maybe she just have Peach's dress characteristics of being able to drift on air...
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:48   Link #158
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How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve"
But they know that Ginga, just captured, is number 13.
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:52   Link #159
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Caro summoned Friedich Dragon Soul mid air in Epi 6, and has been doing that ever since...
She changed his size, that's all. In fact, it's kind of a limiter release.
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Old 2007-08-20, 02:58   Link #160
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But they know that Ginga, just captured, is number 13.
There's always a smallest of possibility that there's a 14, and that Ginga could just be replacing a fallen 13, one which could be involved with who knows what.
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