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Old 2012-07-24, 06:25   Link #5001
JagdPanther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Indeed, in hindsight they should've included a swift kick to the ass.
Considering that there is no evidence that would stand up in any court of law that he definitely did something bad, I disagree. But, that doesn't mean that I don't think that it's more likely than not that he did something very bad.

Quote:
doesn't that mean they have jurisdiction?
No, not at all. You can agree to almost anything ("almost" because contracts cannot be for illegal ventures/actions/means/etc.). That consent decree is the only thing that will allow this punishment to stand. The NCAA has absolutely no ground for imposing punishment on a member institution that didn't actually break any NCAA rules.

Look at it this way. If a guy pays his taxes like clockwork every year, the IRS is happy. If that same guy runs down a pedestrian in a cross-walk, it's the state that administers punishment, not the IRS, even though the guy is a taxpayer. In this situation, the NCAA is the IRS. Penn State has always complied with NCAA rules, but now Penn State, because it is a member of the NCAA (like our loyal taxpayer above), the NCAA (unlike the IRS) is administering a punishment for crimes (allegedly, remember... no convictions on two people and no charges against two others...) committed that were not even tangential to what the NCAA actually administers.
Quote:
Implying that violating NCAA regulations is more serious than covering for child rapist for over a decade while he continues to rape kids
Where did I imply that? I am merely saying that if Penn State gets this kind of punishment without actually having ever violated an NCAA regulation, what kind of punishment should schools who ACTUALLY violate the regulations receive?[/quote]
Quote:
Tough luck, that's how the world works. It's no different than when corporations fail in real life, communities that depended on them will suffer.
That is exactly the kind of attitude I've taken about this whole situation, actually. Until now. Because until now, there have been reasonable bases for the backlash... this, however, has been completed unwarranted.
Quote:
So basically, a slap on the wrist. Yup, Penn Stater definitely don't value their football program above everything else
A slap on the wrist from an organization that has no right to even administer the slap, yes. Whatever the DoE or Commonwealth of Pennsylvania do to us, go ahead, prosecute the school to the fullest extent of the law. At least those bodies have the right and duty to impose punishment.
Quote:
And no, maybe Penn State didn't violate any specific NCAA statute, but they failed the far more important one of basic human decency.
So then why is the NCAA even involved? Like I said above, does the IRS administer the punishment for our loyal taxpayer who committed vehicular assault?
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
The NCAA had all the jurisdiction here, when it comes to "officiating" university athletics.
That's news to the legal community, then.

What is most discouraging about all this is that the decision was made by our new President allegedly without the consent of our Board of Trustees. In the NCAA's statement, Mark Emmert said that part of Penn State's punishment is that it has to completely abide by the findings of the Freeh Report... do you know what one of those findings was? That the Board had very little oversight for the President. Do you know what one of the recommendations was? That the Board should take a firmer grip of the President. Funny thing how, for the NCAA, Penn State going against the findings and recommendations of the report worked out.

I have been very upset with how this situation has been handled (or, rather, bungled) by the Penn State administration. What Jerry Sandusky did was horrible and he deserves to rot in prison (assuming he even survives to die on his own, because child molesters do not fare well in prison). If our administrators really were involved in a cover-up, they deserve to rot, too. But there are ways to handle a crisis like this and there are ways NOT to handle the crisis. The Penn State administration has definitely been in the latter category.
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Last edited by JagdPanther; 2012-07-24 at 06:35.
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Old 2012-07-24, 06:57   Link #5002
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Rather than the NCAA, I'd prefer that the US Department of Education or something of the like takes action, since this is not really a case about just football. Child rape and such crime are matters that the court and the government take, not organisations such as NCAA, since this is past issues such with steroids and money, etc.
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Old 2012-07-24, 10:40   Link #5003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Considering that there is no evidence that would stand up in any court of law that he definitely did something bad, I disagree. But, that doesn't mean that I don't think that it's more likely than not that he did something very bad.
NCAA is not a court of law, it doesn't not require a beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard.

That said, to anyone who believes Paterno was not guilty... I've got some bridges I'd like to sell too

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
No, not at all. You can agree to almost anything ("almost" because contracts cannot be for illegal ventures/actions/means/etc.). That consent decree is the only thing that will allow this punishment to stand. The NCAA has absolutely no ground for imposing punishment on a member institution that didn't actually break any NCAA rules.
I'd say lack of institutional control is good enough for the rest of of us.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Look at it this way. If a guy pays his taxes like clockwork every year, the IRS is happy. If that same guy runs down a pedestrian in a cross-walk, it's the state that administers punishment, not the IRS, even though the guy is a taxpayer. In this situation, the NCAA is the IRS. Penn State has always complied with NCAA rules, but now Penn State, because it is a member of the NCAA (like our loyal taxpayer above), the NCAA (unlike the IRS) is administering a punishment for crimes (allegedly, remember... no convictions on two people and no charges against two others...) committed that were not even tangential to what the NCAA actually administers.
That's just a strawman and you know it. Penn State didn't cover for Sandusky for the lulz, it covered for Sandusky in order to protect its football program. And again, NCAA is not a government entity nor does is it a court of law, it doesn't need to operate within the same standard.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Where did I imply that? I am merely saying that if Penn State gets this kind of punishment without actually having ever violated an NCAA regulation, what kind of punishment should schools who ACTUALLY violate the regulations receive?
You just did again. The failure to see this really shows your bias here. You're saying that schools that breaks even some simple NCAA rules should receive a harsher punishment than Penn State simply because there was no specific statues in NCAA rules about covering up for child rapists

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
That is exactly the kind of attitude I've taken about this whole situation, actually. Until now. Because until now, there have been reasonable bases for the backlash... this, however, has been completed unwarranted.
only to the Penn State apologists

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
I have been very upset with how this situation has been handled (or, rather, bungled) by the Penn State administration. What Jerry Sandusky did was horrible and he deserves to rot in prison (assuming he even survives to die on his own, because child molesters do not fare well in prison). If our administrators really were involved in a cover-up, they deserve to rot, too. But there are ways to handle a crisis like this and there are ways NOT to handle the crisis. The Penn State administration has definitely been in the latter category.
really? I bet you think OJ didn't do it either

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiRa08o2 View Post
Rather than the NCAA, I'd prefer that the US Department of Education or something of the like takes action, since this is not really a case about just football. Child rape and such crime are matters that the court and the government take, not organisations such as NCAA, since this is past issues such with steroids and money, etc.
Because of Penn State covered up those crimes to protect the football program, NCAA really had little choice but to act, else it risks becoming a irrelevant entity. Penn State should consider itself lucky that the NCAA took these steps, if the DOE were forced to sanction Penn State via the Clery Act, it could be far more devastating.
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Old 2012-07-24, 11:10   Link #5004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Because of Penn State covered up those crimes to protect the football program, NCAA really had little choice but to act, else it risks becoming a irrelevant entity. Penn State should consider itself lucky that the NCAA took these steps, if the DOE were forced to sanction Penn State via the Clery Act, it could be far more devastating.
Actually they will have to act (rumor says that its going to be worst than VPI and East Michigan situation) because it violate that act and they are serious about that.

Plus they are CIC/AAU members as well, maybe they will acted on it as well. At the end of the day, I say that NCAA sanctions is going to be drop of water in a bucket compared to the big beast that is coming up.
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Old 2012-07-24, 11:18   Link #5005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Because of Penn State covered up those crimes to protect the football program, NCAA really had little choice but to act, else it risks becoming a irrelevant entity. Penn State should consider itself lucky that the NCAA took these steps, if the DOE were forced to sanction Penn State via the Clery Act, it could be far more devastating.
Was it really Penn State, or was it simply Paterno and his assistant?
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Old 2012-07-24, 11:24   Link #5006
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Originally Posted by KiRa08o2 View Post
Was it really Penn State, or was it simply Paterno and his assistant?
...and the Athletic Director, and the Vice President, and the PRESIDENT of the university.

There's probably a boat load more. Hell, even the JANITORS knew.
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Old 2012-07-24, 11:40   Link #5007
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Originally Posted by KiRa08o2 View Post
Was it really Penn State, or was it simply Paterno and his assistant?
It was Penn State, I know that is a long read but you have to read that Freesch(?) report, believe me it shocked him about how many people who knew about it and did nothing about it or scared to confress.
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Old 2012-07-24, 16:17   Link #5008
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Part of me wonders how other organizations will respond/adapt to this. After all, the scandal and the degree of punishment afterwards is a new precedent.

Will these athletic programs (particularly football) be more secretive? If yes, then there would be increased pressure to keep similar crimes hidden. Especially with NCAA football representing big money these days, that money leads to some image of "power". From the Penn State scandal, do note that low level workers, like janitors, were afraid to be whistle-blowers in fear of their job security.

The real crime is on the organizational leadership for having a nonchalant approach towards Sandusky's crime, until it was brought up in the open. Thus, the punishment is fitting.
A crime of this magnitude happened because all the circumstance surrounding it worked for Sandusky. The culture allowed it simply because people's fear of loss (mostly financial) outweighed the rational to do the right thing. I still say this punishment isn't harsh enough. So yeah, it's hope against hope that something like this will never happen again.

P.S. A copy of the Freeh Report can be downloaded here. Here is an alternate link for a PDF version.
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Old 2012-07-24, 17:04   Link #5009
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
A crime of this magnitude happened because all the circumstance surrounding it worked for Sandusky. The culture allowed it simply because people's fear of loss (mostly financial) outweighed the rational to do the right thing. I still say this punishment isn't harsh enough. So yeah, it's hope against hope that something like this will never happen again.

P.S. A copy of the Freeh Report can be downloaded here. Here is an alternate link for a PDF version.
Yup. Page 14. Summarized in the very first sentence under "FINDINGS".

The sheer irony. The status and reputation of Penn State would have been retained, IF they reported Sandusky as soon as they knew this "activities".

===

At the same time, I'm trying to remember when all this anti-pedophile mania really kicked in during the past decade. If I recall, there was hardly any sort of media coverage regarding pedophilia during the 1990's and beyond. For certain, Chris Hansen wasn't a media figure back then.
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Old 2012-07-24, 17:20   Link #5010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiRa08o2 View Post
Rather than the NCAA, I'd prefer that the US Department of Education or something of the like takes action, since this is not really a case about just football. Child rape and such crime are matters that the court and the government take, not organisations such as NCAA, since this is past issues such with steroids and money, etc.
Boom. Exactly.
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
NCAA is not a court of law, it doesn't not require a beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard.

That said, to anyone who believes Paterno was not guilty... I've got some bridges I'd like to sell too
You are correct; the NCAA has no beyond a reasonable doubt standard. That wasn't my point, though. No court, civil or criminal, has made any ruling on people other than Sandusky. The only official thing that describes the actions of other people in detail is a Grand Jury presentment, which is, by nature, a very biased document. The only other thing speaking to peoples' actions is the Freeh Report, which would never, ever hold up in a court of law. The latter is to what I was referring before. And the NCAA took the Freeh Report as gospel in making their decision. The Freeh Report is damaging, no question, but it is VERY suspect in its precision. Hence, my comment that it would be torn to shreds in a court of law. While the NCAA doesn't have to consider the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, if they indicate that they want the justice system to take its course, they shouldn't turn around and take a very questionable report as the gospel.

As for whether Paterno was guilty, actually, you have no idea, nor do I. The justice system will never be able to determine his guilt since he is, in fact, deceased. The facts out there certainly could lead most to believe that Paterno was involved in a cover-up, but the facts are hardly conclusive. Like I said before, I do actually believe Joe did some bad stuff and deserved to be fired. I guess that blows right by you, though.
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I'd say lack of institutional control is good enough for the rest of of us.
Except LOIC does not cover what happened at Penn State. Everyone involved with sports law can tell you that.
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That's just a strawman and you know it. Penn State didn't cover for Sandusky for the lulz, it covered for Sandusky in order to protect its football program. And again, NCAA is not a government entity nor does is it a court of law, it doesn't need to operate within the same standard.
You know enough to know that the NCAA is not a government entity, but apparently you don't know much else about it.
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You just did again. The failure to see this really shows your bias here. You're saying that schools that breaks even some simple NCAA rules should receive a harsher punishment than Penn State simply because there was no specific statues in NCAA rules about covering up for child rapists
Did you even read what you typed? Apparently, you do realize that the NCAA has no rules by which it could punish Penn State, at least.

And hearing that I'm biased is really funny, because amongst my own fan-base, I am considered a coward and a traitor for actually arguing the outside community point of view.
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only to the Penn State apologists
I guess you haven't really been watching the news much the last 36 hours, then. There are a lot of people all across the country with 0 affiliation with Penn State who are lambasting the NCAA for overstepping its bounds like this.
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really? I bet you think OJ didn't do it either
My personal beliefs on innocence and guilt are, quite frankly, irrelevant... just like yours are. I'm only a law student, after all, and I do believe in innocence-until-proven-guilty.
Quote:
Because of Penn State covered up those crimes to protect the football program, NCAA really had little choice but to act, else it risks becoming a irrelevant entity. Penn State should consider itself lucky that the NCAA took these steps, if the DOE were forced to sanction Penn State via the Clery Act, it could be far more devastating.
You really should go talk to the DA here in Pennsylvania and join up. You seem to know an awful lot more about what went on than anyone else. Did you personally observe everything happening? I mean, that's the only way you could draw such strong conclusory remarks about this.
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Old 2012-07-24, 18:42   Link #5011
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
The Freeh Report is damaging, no question, but it is VERY suspect in its precision. Hence, my comment that it would be torn to shreds in a court of law. While the NCAA doesn't have to consider the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, if they indicate that they want the justice system to take its course, they shouldn't turn around and take a very questionable report as the gospel.
The justice system will take its course regardless of what the NCAA does, the two has nothing to do with each other. The NCAA, and frankly the vast majority of the country certainly considers the Freeh report to be reliable enough, and that's all that's needed for a civilian entity like the NCAA.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
As for whether Paterno was guilty, actually, you have no idea, nor do I. The justice system will never be able to determine his guilt since he is, in fact, deceased. The facts out there certainly could lead most to believe that Paterno was involved in a cover-up, but the facts are hardly conclusive. Like I said before, I do actually believe Joe did some bad stuff and deserved to be fired. I guess that blows right by you, though.
LOL, whether Paterno is dead or alive has little bearing on whether they'll be able to determine his guilt. It's like you're saying "oh look, that killer just shot himself in the head! now we'll never be able to figure out if he's guilty!"[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Did you even read what you typed? Apparently, you do realize that the NCAA has no rules by which it could punish Penn State, at least.
Perhaps not specifically, but they've certainly set a precedent. Call it a power grab if you want, it's not one I'm inclined to disagree with.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
And hearing that I'm biased is really funny, because amongst my own fan-base, I am considered a coward and a traitor for actually arguing the outside community point of view.
Naw, those people are just bat-shit insane.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
I guess you haven't really been watching the news much the last 36 hours, then. There are a lot of people all across the country with 0 affiliation with Penn State who are lambasting the NCAA for overstepping its bounds like this.
Of course some will, no doubt some of them are afraid of what will happen to them when they're the one that gets caught with some dirty laundry next. And there are just as many who don't think the NCAA went far enough, and tbh I'd say there are far more of the latter than the former.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
My personal beliefs on innocence and guilt are, quite frankly, irrelevant... just like yours are. I'm only a law student, after all, and I do believe in innocence-until-proven-guilty.
So do I, when it's in a court of law. Doesn't mean I ignore what's blatantly obvious when it's staring me in the face.

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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
You really should go talk to the DA here in Pennsylvania and join up. You seem to know an awful lot more about what went on than anyone else. Did you personally observe everything happening? I mean, that's the only way you could draw such strong conclusory remarks about this.
Not really, I can draw my own conclusion on what I've seen myself.

Your problem is that you keep trying to apply a criminal court standard to evidence and procedures to a private civilian entity that is not required to go that far. It doesn't matter that the Freeh report is a private investigation which would not measure up to a court's standard, it doesn't need to. Like it or not, the NCAA is in the business of collegiate sport, and this has been beyond a black eye for them, to not act swiftly and harshly is simply not an option. It's the same for Penn State, if there was any inkling of an attempt to fight this, it'll just end up being another unmitigated PR disaster for PSU.

Do sport teams with an offending player wait for the player's criminal case to go through before they decide if they're going to cut him? Do corporations with CEOs accused of personal misconducts etc. wait for the courts to settle the disputes before they force the CEOs out? Hell no.

You can keep arguing as if you're in a court, the problem is that nobody else are in the courtroom with you.
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Old 2012-07-24, 20:13   Link #5012
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
The justice system will take its course regardless of what the NCAA does, the two has nothing to do with each other. The NCAA, and frankly the vast majority of the country certainly considers the Freeh report to be reliable enough, and that's all that's needed for a civilian entity like the NCAA.
Which is very concerning, to say the least.
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LOL, whether Paterno is dead or alive has little bearing on whether they'll be able to determine his guilt. It's like you're saying "oh look, that killer just shot himself in the head! now we'll never be able to figure out if he's guilty!"
Yes, because Joe Paterno's guilt (or innocence) is so obvious based on the evidence currently available. The public really has no idea what happened. The only people who do were there when things happened, and one of them is dead, one is a star witness, and two are awaiting prosecution. The public, quite frankly, knows nothing. That includes you as much as it includes me and most everyone else.
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Perhaps not specifically, but they've certainly set a precedent. Call it a power grab if you want, it's not one I'm inclined to disagree with.
Why not...? Just because it was laid down in these circumstances?
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Of course some will, no doubt some of them are afraid of what will happen to them when they're the one that gets caught with some dirty laundry next. And there are just as many who don't think the NCAA went far enough, and tbh I'd say there are far more of the latter than the former.
I very much disagree. I have seen some say that it was too lenient, but far more say that it way beyond the NCAA's jurisdiction and a very, very dangerous precedent to set.
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So do I, when it's in a court of law. Doesn't mean I ignore what's blatantly obvious when it's staring me in the face.
The fact that anyone thinks it's blatantly obvious one way or another is mind boggling to me. We know VERY little about what really happened.
Quote:
Your problem is that you keep trying to apply a criminal court standard to evidence and procedures to a private civilian entity that is not required to go that far. It doesn't matter that the Freeh report is a private investigation which would not measure up to a court's standard, it doesn't need to. Like it or not, the NCAA is in the business of collegiate sport, and this has been beyond a black eye for them, to not act swiftly and harshly is simply not an option. It's the same for Penn State, if there was any inkling of an attempt to fight this, it'll just end up being another unmitigated PR disaster for PSU.

Do sport teams with an offending player wait for the player's criminal case to go through before they decide if they're going to cut him? Do corporations with CEOs accused of personal misconducts etc. wait for the courts to settle the disputes before they force the CEOs out? Hell no.

You can keep arguing as if you're in a court, the problem is that nobody else are in the courtroom with you.
No, I'm arguing that when a private organization is, by contract with its member institutions, supposed to follow a particular set of rules in punishing a member institution that it follows those rules. In this case, the organization flagrantly disregarded those rules based on very shaky evidence.
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:12   Link #5013
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Kool-aid drinkers from Happy Valley make me sick. Perhaps that should get its own thread.

Anyways, let's talk about something else, since it's apparent everyone is just talking past each other, and has made this thread far too focused on one team.

1) Who actually believes the Broncos are Super Bowl bound? I'm not sure how I'd live with myself if my job was a sports journalist, and it revolved around fabricating as much hype as I could, so either:

a) I'm seen as a genius when it actually happens
b) When the hype inevitably fails, I have plenty of fodder to write about as I eviscerate those I hyped up

I'm sorry. The Bronco's record last year was a fluke. They were a horrible, horrible team, and I know there are those who are going to say, "look at how the Colts were exposed without Manning" as evidence that one player really can magically turn things around, but that's just too simplistic purely because it makes a good sound-bite. If I was Denver, I'd be happy just to make it to the playoffs. I mean, I am not one of those who have serious doubts about Peyton Manning. But, I do remember how awful pretty much every aspect of this Denver team was last year, and think the team used up its luck quotient for the next hundred years with Tebow's wins last year.

2) Anyone else think the Bears may surprise everyone and take the NFC North? I may be a Badger, but I'm not a cheesehead (went to Wisc for school, but didn't grow up there), and feel GB has been far worse than their record over their last two years seems to indicate. A whole house of cards that's inevitably going to fall.

3) I'm having a hard time seeing the Saints not making the playoffs. I'm sure the last thing the NFL wants is to see them in the Superbowl, but I've always thought coaches are overblown, and am on the side of the fence that this team isn't going to see much-if any-let down just because they've essentially changed coaches this year.

4) Could this year finally be Dallas' in the NFC East? I feel like the Giants got worse over the off-season, and their winning the Super Bowl was from "on any given Sunday, anyone can win", and highly unlikely to repeat. If Vick was anything like he was his first year as a starter with the Eagles, I'd be excited. We didn't see that at all last year though, which puts the burden of proof on his shoulders (don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the dynamic Vick of 2010 again; but he's only getting older). I don't buy into the RG3 hype at all, and don't think the Redskins are going to be remotely relevant, which almost makes this division Dallas' by default this year?

5) Is San Fran going to have an easier or harder path to the playoffs this year? I feel like this would have been the instant Super Bowl favorite if Peyton Manning had signed with them, as from my perspective the one thing they are really missing is a good quarterback (as opposed to Denver, which is missing just about everything). I don't think Arizona is going anywhere with Kolb, the Seahawks are still rebuilding (though one has to wonder how much longer they're going to give Pete Carroll on that front), and the Rams...meh.
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Old 2012-07-30, 00:10   Link #5014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
Kool-aid drinkers from Happy Valley make me sick. Perhaps that should get its own thread.

Anyways, let's talk about something else, since it's apparent everyone is just talking past each other, and has made this thread far too focused on one team.

1) Who actually believes the Broncos are Super Bowl bound? I'm not sure how I'd live with myself if my job was a sports journalist, and it revolved around fabricating as much hype as I could, so either:

a) I'm seen as a genius when it actually happens
b) When the hype inevitably fails, I have plenty of fodder to write about as I eviscerate those I hyped up

I'm sorry. The Bronco's record last year was a fluke. They were a horrible, horrible team, and I know there are those who are going to say, "look at how the Colts were exposed without Manning" as evidence that one player really can magically turn things around, but that's just too simplistic purely because it makes a good sound-bite. If I was Denver, I'd be happy just to make it to the playoffs. I mean, I am not one of those who have serious doubts about Peyton Manning. But, I do remember how awful pretty much every aspect of this Denver team was last year, and think the team used up its luck quotient for the next hundred years with Tebow's wins last year.
I would be extremely surprised if they go anywhere beyond the 2nd round of playoff. I think Peyton is the best quarterback of this generation whose impact on a team is without question, but even with a healthy Peyton, he still has to get that offense in the same page. I don't think Broncos have the personnel in offense to bring out Peyton's full potential (again, providing he is healthy). It might be a couple of years before Broncos are regarded as threats. It'll be nothing short of a miracle if they even make it to the AFC Championship this year.

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2) Anyone else think the Bears may surprise everyone and take the NFC North? I may be a Badger, but I'm not a cheesehead (went to Wisc for school, but didn't grow up there), and feel GB has been far worse than their record over their last two years seems to indicate. A whole house of cards that's inevitably going to fall.
As shown in the last season, Cutler will need to stay healthy. All deals are off without him.

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3) I'm having a hard time seeing the Saints not making the playoffs. I'm sure the last thing the NFL wants is to see them in the Superbowl, but I've always thought coaches are overblown, and am on the side of the fence that this team isn't going to see much-if any-let down just because they've essentially changed coaches this year.
Agreed. This might actually give them an edge, mentally anyway. Most of the talent pool is still there, so I'll try not to act too surprised if they make it to the Post Season and go far.

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4) Could this year finally be Dallas' in the NFC East? I feel like the Giants got worse over the off-season, and their winning the Super Bowl was from "on any given Sunday, anyone can win", and highly unlikely to repeat. If Vick was anything like he was his first year as a starter with the Eagles, I'd be excited. We didn't see that at all last year though, which puts the burden of proof on his shoulders (don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the dynamic Vick of 2010 again; but he's only getting older). I don't buy into the RG3 hype at all, and don't think the Redskins are going to be remotely relevant, which almost makes this division Dallas' by default this year?
The better question would be if this is the year of the "Dream Team?" Despite their early season folly, they were looking very very dangerous in the last remaining 4 games and almost snuck in to the post season if Giants had lost both of the last two games.

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5) Is San Fran going to have an easier or harder path to the playoffs this year? I feel like this would have been the instant Super Bowl favorite if Peyton Manning had signed with them, as from my perspective the one thing they are really missing is a good quarterback (as opposed to Denver, which is missing just about everything). I don't think Arizona is going anywhere with Kolb, the Seahawks are still rebuilding (though one has to wonder how much longer they're going to give Pete Carroll on that front), and the Rams...meh.
That's a very dangerous team once again. They've also managed to win a lot of close games last year, so to play the devil's advocate here, it will be interesting to see if they can replicate similar success into those close games. I don't think they will even though they might have a better team offensively this year.
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Old 2012-08-01, 01:02   Link #5015
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Well, I'm back from my multi-month self-imposed exile from the board (and this thread) so let just jump on in:

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I would be extremely surprised if they go anywhere beyond the 2nd round of playoff. I think Peyton is the best quarterback of this generation whose impact on a team is without question, but even with a healthy Peyton, he still has to get that offense in the same page. I don't think Broncos have the personnel in offense to bring out Peyton's full potential (again, providing he is healthy). It might be a couple of years before Broncos are regarded as threats. It'll be nothing short of a miracle if they even make it to the AFC Championship this year.
My projections have Denver at 3-13, with Manning going down to injury in Week 4.

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As shown in the last season, Cutler will need to stay healthy. All deals are off without him.
My projections have The Bears getting hit hard with the injury bug and missing the playoffs.

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Agreed. This might actually give them an edge, mentally anyway. Most of the talent pool is still there, so I'll try not to act too surprised if they make it to the Post Season and go far.
Saints got a shot at wild card, but the Wild Card race is going to be bloodbath this year (In my book I've got every NFC team save The Niners, Packers, Falcons, and Vikings in the Wild Card race this year)

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The better question would be if this is the year of the "Dream Team?" Despite their early season folly, they were looking very very dangerous in the last remaining 4 games and almost snuck in to the post season if Giants had lost both of the last two games.
If this is going to be the year of anything, it's going to be the year of the ambulance.

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That's a very dangerous team once again. They've also managed to win a lot of close games last year, so to play the devil's advocate here, it will be interesting to see if they can replicate similar success into those close games. I don't think they will even though they might have a better team offensively this year.
I'd say the total difficulty level is a wash. Sure, their schedule is somewhat tougher than last year, but there's the offensive upgrades, improved psychology within the team, and the fact that several teams that might seem difficult at first are probably going to take falls in the quality of their play. I myself have The Niners defying gravity and going 14-2, with both losses coming at the hands of the John Skelton led Cardinals.
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Old 2012-08-01, 08:00   Link #5016
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My projections have Denver at 3-13, with Manning going down to injury in Week 4.
Can I ask why?
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:37   Link #5017
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Can I ask why?
I simply don't think his neck will hold up to a lucky shot…
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Old 2012-08-04, 03:44   Link #5018
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Hall of Fame game this Sunday. I think the Hall of Fame inductions are today. Not as exciting of a class as last year, but good to get Willie Roaf in there. I'm still in shocked that Cris Carter isn't in the Hall of Fame.
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Old 2012-08-04, 09:55   Link #5019
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Hall of Fame game this Sunday. I think the Hall of Fame inductions are today. Not as exciting of a class as last year, but good to get Willie Roaf in there. I'm still in shocked that Cris Carter isn't in the Hall of Fame.
It's an absolute crime. Same thing with Tim Brown.

Looking forward to the HoF game. I've missed the NFL.
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Old 2012-08-04, 23:20   Link #5020
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I'm still waiting on Charles Haley to get in as well. I mean come on.
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