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View Poll Results: Gurren-Lagann - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 91 67.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 20.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 7.41%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.74%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-08-28, 23:29   Link #121
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by musashiken View Post
Well, Viral was a hated enemy (who killed Kamina), but everyone now probably accepts him as a comrade. Nia became a hated enemy of humanity, but Simon still wants to save her. So what if Rossiu is a prick now? He'll probably do something to redeem himself and regain his position as a valued comrade in the Gurren team.
It has always been like this throughout the whole show.
Viral is totally different that Rossiu. He made no bones about being an enemy, and he thrilled in the glory of the battle - in fact, he didn't want to defeat a weak opponent. Gurren-Lagann was the only enemy he wanted to test himself against. Rossiu, OTOH, is a scheming, disloyal twat who would sacrifice his own mother if it fit his world view which, conveniently, always has him at the center of power. Rossiu isn't fit to wipe Viral's beastman butt.
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Old 2007-08-29, 00:10   Link #122
PiPiRu
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Rossiu after the time skip was like Simon at episode one, a doubter. I hate the guy, but his reasoning the whole time is "what's the best outcome for this f-ed up situation humanity is in". He is definitely not a slimy politician. At the end of the battle Rossiu wasn't upset or jealous, but in shock that Simon pulled it off.
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Old 2007-08-29, 02:26   Link #123
Anh_Minh
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One of Rossiu's problems is genre blindness.

In the real world, you need forethought, the ability to compromise and make the hard choices, and the readiness to cut your losses. There's the famous case of the Enigma code, for example. Do you save as many civilians as you can from the next attack, or do you keep secret the fact that the code is broken? Rossiu would have chosen the latter. So did Churchill.

In GL's world, hotblood and a Heart Burning For Justice trumps all, instead of leading you to a quick and possibly embarrassing death, taking all of your friends with you.
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Old 2007-08-29, 04:30   Link #124
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
One of Rossiu's problems is genre blindness.

In the real world, you need forethought, the ability to compromise and make the hard choices, and the readiness to cut your losses. There's the famous case of the Enigma code, for example. Do you save as many civilians as you can from the next attack, or do you keep secret the fact that the code is broken? Rossiu would have chosen the latter. So did Churchill.

In GL's world, hotblood and a Heart Burning For Justice trumps all, instead of leading you to a quick and possibly embarrassing death, taking all of your friends with you.
One such hard choice, was to keep Simon alive no matter how badly you want him dead, because Simon is an irreplaceable military asset.

Rossiu obviously failed that test, deciding to have a real execution even though everything else with the trial was fake. He had no forethought, and didn't make a compromise when he needed to.

Rossiu is no Churchill. He would still have the support of the people now, if he had hidden Simon away with a fake death rather than throwing him in death-row.

Unless you could explain why there was a logical reason for wanting Simon to be executed?
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Old 2007-08-29, 04:37   Link #125
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This episode is indeed awesome. I was like already super pumped when Simon says "GIGA DRILL! SPIN ON!" and jams the drill in. 8D The arc gurren lagann is already damn huge. I just cant really imagine the sheer size of the final form. It will probably be able to crush a planet with 2 fingers.


My hope for old nia to return has regained quite a bit. Theres still a chance that she could be saved. COMMON SIMON, YOU GOT COURAGE! NOW USE THE POWER OF LOVE!!!
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Old 2007-08-29, 05:40   Link #126
Anh_Minh
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I won't deny that Rossiu miscalculated very badly on several point. Most glaring is that he underestimated Gurren Lagan's value by several orders of magnitude. And what was he thinking when he had the Ganmen destroyed? Maybe he was afraid of the mischief the Gurren Brigade could get up to with them, and thought the Gulapals were better anyway...

But at least, he tried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
One such hard choice, was to keep Simon alive no matter how badly you want him dead, because Simon is an irreplaceable military asset.

Rossiu obviously failed that test, deciding to have a real execution even though everything else with the trial was fake.
But he didn't. Yes, he stowed Simon away in the death row. But he didn't organize Simon's execution. When Kittan came to him to ask for the core drill, Rossiu basically went "Eh. Can't hurt. At this point, I'd buy a rabbit's foot if someone would sell it to me."

Yes, he refused to believe Simon could somehow defeat the Anti-Spirals. But, instead of just having him shot at the exit of the tribunal, he sent him to jail. Why not? Why bother with a potentially uncovered sleight of hands when he could really send Simon somewhere and nobody would say anything? Think about it. By really sending Simon to death row, he avoided people wondering why Simon wasn't there.

Quote:
He had no forethought, and didn't make a compromise when he needed to.

Rossiu is no Churchill. He would still have the support of the people now, if he had hidden Simon away with a fake death rather than throwing him in death-row.

Unless you could explain why there was a logical reason for wanting Simon to be executed?
Executed? No. But I can understand why Rossiu wanted him out of the way.
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Old 2007-08-29, 06:10   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Executed? No. But I can understand why Rossiu wanted him out of the way.
So... You are telling me that Rossiu didn't actually want Simon dead?

Every evidence suggest Simon was to be killed. Simon could have died in Prison too, so the fact that he wasn't put into isolation means Rossiu didn't actually do this to protect him.

Sure, he didn't manage to kill Simon before the Anti-spirals messed up his plans of a take-over. But the fact that nearly everyone else BUT Rossiu is involved with Simon's release means he never intended Simon to live.

Rossiu knows he doesn't belong to the Brigade anymore; that's why he left the bridge of the ship when everyone else is celebrating. If he had intended Simon to live, there would be no shame in staying after the battle.

Rossiu knows he screwed up, and it all wouldn't have happened if he didn't decide Simon need a death sentence for Rossiu's personal greed and hatred.
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Old 2007-08-29, 06:28   Link #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But he didn't. Yes, he stowed Simon away in the death row. But he didn't organize Simon's execution. When Kittan came to him to ask for the core drill, Rossiu basically went "Eh. Can't hurt. At this point, I'd buy a rabbit's foot if someone would sell it to me."

Yes, he refused to believe Simon could somehow defeat the Anti-Spirals. But, instead of just having him shot at the exit of the tribunal, he sent him to jail. Why not? Why bother with a potentially uncovered sleight of hands when he could really send Simon somewhere and nobody would say anything? Think about it. By really sending Simon to death row, he avoided people wondering why Simon wasn't there.



Executed? No. But I can understand why Rossiu wanted him out of the way.
I have to disagree with you there. The trial and Simon being sent to jail instead of being outright executed was all part of his plan. By giving Simon a "fair" trial he would be seen as a just leader by the general public. Also Rossiu was very hesistant to return the Core Drill. Why? He knew that Simon wouldn't be happy with the way Rossiu is handling things (killing off everyone on earth). He wanted to be in the spothlight and it all backfired on him. Simon did not only save the earth and whole humanity but also completely humiliated Rossiu. "I can't compare to that. In the end, he turned everything on its head." He himself admits that he's been bested ( also it show that the was an attention whore all the time).
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Old 2007-08-29, 07:38   Link #129
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Rossiu came across as a person that got tired of how things were done and wanted to implement his own ideals. We will know (hopefully) next eps what were his intentions. He was still pragmatic to a degree because he did hand back the core drill in the end to Kitan, where he could have easily kept it. The Gurren Brigade didn't protest that much to his execution, I mean seriously if they admire Simon that much surely they would have done much more in protest.

His heart was in the right place in terms of protecting humanity, but sadly for him in this world god is on Simon's side.
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Old 2007-08-29, 07:51   Link #130
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So... You are telling me that Rossiu didn't actually want Simon dead?
It's hard to say. The Anti-Spirals messed up Rossiu's timetable, so we'll never really know what Rossiu planned with regards to Simon.

I believe Rossiu didn't particularly care one way or another what Simon did, as long as it didn't interfere with Rossiu's own plans to save humanity.

He also knew he'd pretty much burned his bridges. Simon would never go for the solution Rossiu thought was the only solution. They couldn't work together anymore. So it was much better to keep his distances.

Quote:
Every evidence suggest Simon was to be killed. Simon could have died in Prison too, so the fact that he wasn't put into isolation means Rossiu didn't actually do this to protect him.
Actually, he was put in isolation pretty fast... But no, I won't argue the prison fight was all part of Rossiu's plan.

Information flows both way. If it can get into the prison, it can come out, too. Rossiu just didn't want anything to seem odd about Simon's stay, and was confident Simon could handle the hazards of jail.

Quote:
Sure, he didn't manage to kill Simon before the Anti-spirals messed up his plans of a take-over. But the fact that nearly everyone else BUT Rossiu is involved with Simon's release means he never intended Simon to live.
But he didn't do anything to prevent that. He didn't even deny Kittan the core drill.

Quote:
Rossiu knows he doesn't belong to the Brigade anymore; that's why he left the bridge of the ship when everyone else is celebrating. If he had intended Simon to live, there would be no shame in staying after the battle.
Whatever he planned for Simon... It doesn't matter. The thing is, he failed. He tried to present himself as a leader, a savior. He thought he could accomplish something, that he was the only one who could. That, if things were left to Simon, everything would be ruined. So he betrayed him and usurped his position.

And in the end, he was proven wrong. Nothing he did helped, and Simon was able to push back the moon after all.

Quote:
Rossiu knows he screwed up, and it all wouldn't have happened if he didn't decide Simon need a death sentence for Rossiu's personal greed and hatred.
He screwed up, yes. But I think his motivations had more to do with hubris, fear, and lack of faith in hot blood.
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Old 2007-08-29, 07:54   Link #131
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Boohahaha View Post
Rossiu came across as a person that got tired of how things were done and wanted to implement his own ideals. We will know (hopefully) next eps what were his intentions. He was still pragmatic to a degree because he did hand back the core drill in the end to Kitan, where he could have easily kept it. The Gurren Brigade didn't protest that much to his execution, I mean seriously if they admire Simon that much surely they would have done much more in protest.

His heart was in the right place in terms of protecting humanity, but sadly for him in this world god is on Simon's side.
Protest what? Simon was given a "fair trial" and sentenced to death didn't he?
Before you know it, Rossiu would have rounded up all the protesters for disorderly conduct, give them all "fail trials", and send them off to death row too. If Simon, the hero of humanity, isn't safe, what makes you think anyone else could stand a chance in Rossiu's "legal system"?

And the friends protested alright; they organised his jailbreak, the retrieval of core drill and readied his mecha. Rossiu can take no credit since he should have been the one to free Simon but didn't.

There was some very simple things Rossiu could have done over the last few episodes, that would have made him more sympathetic. He did none of it, and showed himself to be a man so jealous of a hero, he will kill his trusting friend in order to get the lime light. And he did it all to the detriment of society.

I just need to repeat myself on this; Rossiu didn't care about the people he ruled over, he just wanted power and respect. It's just that he needed the citizens in order to have all these things, otherwise he won't care if they live or not.

Quote:
But he didn't do anything to prevent that. He didn't even deny Kittan the core drill.
His powerbase is falling apart at the time. If he said no, Kittan will take it from him by force, as is what a Brigade member would do.

I still don't see why you are defending Rossiu:
He disagreed with Simon, wanted to take the power, throw Simon into death row under false pretenses, and he isn't sorry. He wanted to be the hero by murdering the hero.

What part of what he did was remotely acceptable? There is someone in my Uni course who is out-performing me. Maybe I should sabotage her experiments and cause "accidents"... Will you defend my actions by saying I have a right to act out my jealousy and hurt others, because it is "understandable"?

Hubris and fear are common., but the line is crossed by throwing Simon in Death row. When Rossiu did that, he ceases to be a victim. Instead, he became a culprit. And culprits should not be pitied.
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Old 2007-08-29, 08:42   Link #132
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How is Rossiu not sorry about his actions? Considering the preview depicts him as nearly killing himself...
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Old 2007-08-29, 08:52   Link #133
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
His powerbase is falling apart at the time. If he said no, Kittan will take it from him by force, as is what a Brigade member would do.
Yeah, 'cause that worked real well the last time Kittan tried to punch him in the face.

Quote:
I still don't see why you are defending Rossiu:
Sheer contrariness?

And also the belief it's irresponsible to think Hot Blood is going to solve everything.

I'm not trying to say he was right to do what he did. But I don't think he's the monster you're trying to depict, either.

Quote:
He disagreed with Simon, wanted to take the power, throw Simon into death row under false pretenses, and he isn't sorry. He wanted to be the hero by murdering the hero.

What part of what he did was remotely acceptable? There is someone in my Uni course who is out-performing me. Maybe I should sabotage her experiments and cause "accidents"... Will you defend my actions by saying I have a right to act out my jealousy and hurt others, because it is "understandable"?
Depends. Does the Fate of the World (tm) depends on her stopping to outperform you?

Quote:
Hubris and fear are common., but the line is crossed by throwing Simon in Death row. When Rossiu did that, he ceases to be a victim. Instead, he became a culprit. And culprits should not be pitied.
If Rossiu had been right - I'm not saying he was, I know he wasn't, but, if. - if killing Simon really was the only way to save humanity... Well, sorry to say, but hand me the gun.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:07   Link #134
Boohahaha
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Protest what? Simon was given a "fair trial" and sentenced to death didn't he?
Before you know it, Rossiu would have rounded up all the protesters for disorderly conduct, give them all "fail trials", and send them off to death row too. If Simon, the hero of humanity, isn't safe, what makes you think anyone else could stand a chance in Rossiu's "legal system"?

And the friends protested alright; they organised his jailbreak, the retrieval of core drill and readied his mecha. Rossiu can take no credit since he should have been the one to free Simon but didn't.

There was some very simple things Rossiu could have done over the last few episodes, that would have made him more sympathetic. He did none of it, and showed himself to be a man so jealous of a hero, he will kill his trusting friend in order to get the lime light. And he did it all to the detriment of society.

I just need to repeat myself on this; Rossiu didn't care about the people he ruled over, he just wanted power and respect. It's just that he needed the citizens in order to have all these things, otherwise he won't care if they live or not.


His powerbase is falling apart at the time. If he said no, Kittan will take it from him by force, as is what a Brigade member would do.

I still don't see why you are defending Rossiu:
He disagreed with Simon, wanted to take the power, throw Simon into death row under false pretenses, and he isn't sorry. He wanted to be the hero by murdering the hero.

What part of what he did was remotely acceptable? There is someone in my Uni course who is out-performing me. Maybe I should sabotage her experiments and cause "accidents"... Will you defend my actions by saying I have a right to act out my jealousy and hurt others, because it is "understandable"?

Hubris and fear are common., but the line is crossed by throwing Simon in Death row. When Rossiu did that, he ceases to be a victim. Instead, he became a culprit. And culprits should not be pitied.
I think you are jumping to conclusions on Rossiu's care on society, I personally think he did care about them. You can tell in the last eps. as well. Simon is almost bullet proof in this role, but seriously a person that jumps in combat without thinking of the consequences is also selfish and irresponsible. Furthermore based on what you said, then EVERY politician in this world doesn't care about their citizens. They just want the votes to stay in power.

Kitan took it by force because the opportunity came, before then they sure didn't act like the brave Gurren Brigade of old. Afterall based on what the morale of this story is all about, who cares about the consequences, just go all out with your heart and all will be right.

Like I mentioned earlier, Rossiu's actions may be due to his frustrations of working in a system that he felt was inadequate not just from jealousy. Honestly until we find out his story later on, I going to put off judging him out right as yet. Going on your university example, it may not be acceptable but that also depends on the context of the situation.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:16   Link #135
musashiken
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I think people are hating Rossiu a little too much. Seriously, it's all part of the plot. There has to be someone to make wrong decisions at the wrong time. And you have Rossiu. Don't forget this arc is about how Simon fails to do anything right and Rossiu struggling to pick up the pieces.

Simon did little governing as he is more of a laid back person, Rossiu did everything else and gets stressed to keep the peace for 7 years.

Simon's love Nia betrayed him and he just went wtf and had no idea what to do. People are stupid and see him as the cause for their sudden predicament. They want blood and do needless rioting, Rossiu sentenced Simon to appease them. Extreme but logical and a quick temporary solution.

Simon tried to be Gar and destroyed Mugan but the result caused more damage. This just gave more reason for Rossiu to believe that he is right.

When Nia announced the moon to be crashed onto Earth, Rossiu's panic meter rose to the highest because at that time, nobody knew that it was possible to do anything about it. So desperate times call for desperate measures and Rossiu made the decision to abandon Earth.

Even in space, even after Simon is inside the moon, there's still a tiny chance that Simon might blow up the moon. So would any rational person bet thousands of lives on just chance? Rossiu already gave up on Simon's Gar factor and he wasn't about to make a risk with thousands of lives in his hands.


Looking at the above points, everything falls into place. Sure Rossiu is being an ass. But circumstances forced him to. And yeah there could have been better ways to solve some of the above problems but the problem is, could anyone have done better at all in Rossiu's position? Especially when Yoko is not around, Simon is being troubled by Nia and Kittan and co. are still the same hooligans 7 years ago?

I know people are pissed that Rossiu sentenced Simon to death, but the way the anime quickly flowed by, there's no proof that Rossiu really wanted him to die right then or just make Simon stay in prison until everything is over.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:20   Link #136
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Quote:
If Rossiu had been right - I'm not saying he was, I know he wasn't, but, if. - if killing Simon really was the only way to save humanity... Well, sorry to say, but hand me the gun.
Rossiu wasn't executing Simon to save humanity he was using Simon as a scapegoat to appease the crowd.


I do think Rossiu thought he was right in this situation but at the end of 22 he seemed upset that Simon's way won out. I don't know you think he would be happy that the human race was saved and no one had to be sacrificed. It is almost like Rossiu feels inadequate next to Simon and wanted his way to be right no matter the cost.

And was Rossiu decision ever the right one? Rossiu decided it was better to try to save as many humans as he could on the arc to preserve humanity than to try to fight the Anti-Spirals thus saving all of humanity? Rossiu's approach was too utiltarian and "the end justifies the means" for me to appreciate.


Although that all being said I think Rossiu will somehow redeem himself before the end. I don't think he is a bad person (and I think the young Rossiu that we knew before episode 17 is still in there). I don't know maybe all the pressure of governing took their toll on Rossiu and changed him.

Quote:
I know people are pissed that Rossiu sentenced Simon to death, but the way the anime quickly flowed by, there's no proof that Rossiu really wanted him to die right then or just make Simon stay in prison until everything is over.
Rossiu seemed serious to me. After all he was willing to strap a bomb on Kinon to prevent Simon from escaping.

Last edited by Kirarakim; 2007-08-29 at 10:32.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:23   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If Rossiu had been right - I'm not saying he was, I know he wasn't, but, if. - if killing Simon really was the only way to save humanity... Well, sorry to say, but hand me the gun.
ok, me too, I would kill him. With my teeth even if it is the only solution.
but no point in saying that here. Because it is not the case by a very far margin. Rossiu didnt even think that sentencing simon to death would save the world, he just did so to calm fucking useless citizen.
I cant understand where does putting simon into a jail is useful to any kind of plan rossiu could have made. You say that simon couldnt have accepted what rossiu did but the only thing that simon wouldnt have accepted was abandonning the population on earth but decision came way after rossiu decided to throw simon in jail.

It is a crime for a guy who think himself smart and who is a ruler to throw away its best weapon, the gurren laggan and simon in a time of war.
And what is really bad for rossiu is that when learning that the moon would destroy the planet, he didnt free simon even though:
he had all the time for it.
"calming the citizen isnt very useful anymore"
He needed all the possible muscle available coz you need to be very stupid to think the anti spiral would have let them alone in space.....
The excuse of "it was a time of crisis and rossiu didnt have time to think about it" isnt working when you think he had the time to think about yoko whom he didnt see for a year...

I m not saying that rossiu is power hungry, selfish or anything.
He is just an idiot. And a big one.
incompetent leadership......... and a leadership that was stolen....
Hard to support rossiu here. Very hard.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:25   Link #138
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by musashiken View Post
Even in space, even after Simon is inside the moon, there's still a tiny chance that Simon might blow up the moon. So would any rational person bet thousands of lives on just chance? Rossiu already gave up on Simon's Gar factor and he wasn't about to make a risk with thousands of lives in his hands.
Yes. He could - with some degree of justification - think that without Simon and the Lagann, all is lost anyway. So he'd better bet it all - including the Arc Gurren and the 180,000 people aboard - on Simon's success. And buy Simon as much time as possible, even if it's only one second.

I agree with the rest, though.

Quote:
Looking at the above points, everything falls into place. Sure Rossiu is being an ass. But circumstances forced him to. And yeah there could have been better ways to solve some of the above problems but the problem is, could anyone have done better at all in Rossiu's position? Especially when Yoko is not around, Simon is being troubled by Nia and Kittan and co. are still the same hooligans 7 years ago?

I know people are pissed that Rossiu sentenced Simon to death, but the way the anime quickly flowed by, there's no proof that Rossiu really wanted him to die right then or just make Simon stay in prison until everything is over.
Yeah. That's what I've been trying to say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I do think Rossiu thought he was right in this situation but at the end of 22 he seemed upset that Simon's way won out. I don't know you think he would be happy that the human race was saved and no one had to be sacrificed. It is almost like Rossiu feels inadequate next to Simon amd wanted his way to be right no matter the cost.
His worldview was turned upside down. It's normal to be upset.


Quote:
Rossiu seemed serious to me. After all he was willing to strap a bomb on Kinon to prevent Simon from escaping.
He didn't want Simon running around like a loose canon. Or even being a martyr and start a rebellion then.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:38   Link #139
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Rossiu seemed serious to me. After all he was willing to strap a bomb on Kinon to prevent Simon from escaping.
Good point. That's absolute proof that Rossiu does not have any other intention than "kill Simon" when he sentenced him. No reason using a bomb for any other purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Th View Post
How is Rossiu not sorry about his actions? Considering the preview depicts him as nearly killing himself...
One don't need remorse to commit suicide; dispair and hopelessness works just as well.
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Old 2007-08-29, 09:51   Link #140
Nightengale
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The problem with Rossiu was that in those 7 years, he became too machinated. Things like trust, overcoming odds, the power of human hearts and all that things that cannot be measured and calculated became foreign to him, and by extension, so does his ties as a former Gurren-dan member.

Despite knowing Simon for years, even though he probably knew deep down Simon would never rebel or things like that, it didn't stop him from presuming he would. Because he stopped seeing Simon as the man who overcame odds, but just as one individual who happened to be the figurehead for Kamina City, he took that playing field. He became the type of person who believed solely in numbers, the type that believes 100 can overcome 90, even if those 90 are people with hearts that are larger than life. So, in a similar vein, he lost his trust in Simon's magic.

However, when shit hits him, and what saves him is hope of something larger than life, something he pretty much gave up for the type of things he's been doing, be it Spiral Power, the power that overcome impossible odds, things like that, I'd think it's only natural he'd feel lost.
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