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Old 2007-08-29, 10:46   Link #21
BlackShinobi07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thFonon View Post
There is definitely a scene in the manga showing Sasuke surrounded by a bunch of people he killed. This was before he betrayed Oro. You are missing my point about Itachi, he could have (If he wanted to) make short work of Kurenai and killed her (way before Kakashi appeared), but he chose not to. Though Itachi is overrated, he could have killed Kakashi easily (at that time period).

Sasuke didn't want team Hebi to kill so they could stay under the radar. That is all.
Nope. They were all alive. Oro even comments that hes still too soft because all the ninjas were just knocked out.
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Old 2007-08-29, 11:05   Link #22
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idd and just like he proofed afterwise he ain't soft on the people he despises tho he doesn't just kill random people. He even keeps Hebi from random killing.

Tho I don't see any reason why Tsunade would punish him (biggest question is, is she even capable?). Like people stated, he dealt with some big problems for Konoha even the biggest (Oro).

I agree that learning from someone that betrayed the country makes you look like a fellow betrayer. But he never held any hate towards Konoha and like we all expected he would finish Oro off before he could do the transfer so even if he was tagged as betrayer after that that label can be put down again.

And Nejis fate whining, he could've saw it as fate to that he lost to a guy he thougth of a big loser. Let's hope that it never reaches Nejis ears that Naruto is the son of Yondaime or else we mb see him turning back in that evil Neji .
Tbh I always found fate discussions funny, is your life predetermined before you start living? who knows >.<
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Old 2007-08-29, 11:35   Link #23
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Sounds weird, but Naruto being Minatoīs son somehow contradicts with the former message, Kishi intended to deliver to all fans.
He wanted to say, that everyone can reach his goals, if he just tries hard enough. Naruto was used to be an example for that thought, but since he has the genes of the propably most genius ninja ever....the meaning of this assumption more or less is gone.

Well, if we wanted to hold up relevance of Kishis (ex?-)statement, we could just say, that Naruto isnīt aware of who he really is, and maybe thatīs why he was having a hard time, though.

But anyways, Naruto being the 4thīs son...thatīs indeed kind of ironic.
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Old 2007-08-29, 11:39   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thFonon View Post
There is definitely a scene in the manga showing Sasuke surrounded by a bunch of people he killed. This was before he betrayed Oro. You are missing my point about Itachi, he could have (If he wanted to) make short work of Kurenai and killed her (way before Kakashi appeared), but he chose not to. Though Itachi is overrated, he could have killed Kakashi easily (at that time period).

Sasuke didn't want team Hebi to kill so they could stay under the radar. That is all.
If you're talking about when he was training with Orochimaru, he didn't kill those people either. Even Oro makes the point of saying that Sasuke is too soft, and must learn to kill, to which Sasuke replies that he is only interested in killing one person. And as for Hebi staying under the radar, that's a load of crap. Not only did Sasuke go to the hideouts of Oro and release the strongest members held there, he had Suigetsu release all the prisoners Karin was watching, and told them specifically to spread the word that Sasuke had killed Oro. They're not staying under the radar so much as we don't know if anyone besides Itachi and the Konoha ninja are after them.

I couldn't find the pic to post here, but I found the chapter:

Chapter 342, Page 17-18

*Sasuke appears in the center of a large group of defeated ninja*
Sasuke: Is that all of them?
Orochimaru: You didn't kill any of them. You're still too soft.
Sasuke: They aren't the ones I want to kill.
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Last edited by Quzor; 2007-08-29 at 11:47. Reason: found the chap.
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Old 2007-08-29, 12:00   Link #25
7thFonon
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I still don't think that Konoha would give him the same acceptance after leaving Konoha, especially at such a crucial time.
But no, Sasuke is trying to stay hidden, I don't see why they would throw people off their trail by shredding Sasuke's shirt.
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Old 2007-08-29, 12:18   Link #26
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Originally Posted by 7thFonon View Post
There is definitely a scene in the manga showing Sasuke surrounded by a bunch of people he killed. This was before he betrayed Oro. You are missing my point about Itachi, he could have (If he wanted to) make short work of Kurenai and killed her (way before Kakashi appeared), but he chose not to. Though Itachi is overrated, he could have killed Kakashi easily (at that time period).

Sasuke didn't want team Hebi to kill so they could stay under the radar. That is all.
the only people sasuke has killed in the manga have been oro (kinda)and dedria (T.T) both killers of leaders of 2 respected villages

plus bloodline is important if the leaf village won't take him anybody else would
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Old 2007-08-29, 12:46   Link #27
Slayerx
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Why should he be punished???
The only thing he did, was leaving the village, thatīs no crime.
actually, i think that in reguards to ninjas villages, it IS a crime to leave the village like that... ninjas that leave are considered missing-nin and are considered traitors... a ninja village is military afterall, and leaving would probably be considered the equalvilant to desertion. ninjas like Jiraiya, Tsunade and Shizune were more likely given permission to leave (jiraiya, according to the databooks actually has no listed rank)

Quote:
Well, if we wanted to hold up relevance of Kishis (ex?-)statement, we could just say, that Naruto isnīt aware of who he really is, and maybe thatīs why he was having a hard time, though.
Actually, i think a better thing to say is that, even though Naruto is the son of one of the greatest geniuses, he himself is not a genius. Whether or not he knew he was Yondiame's son would not have changed how hard Naruto had to work since it wouldn't have made him anymore taleted as a ninja... i think that's why Kishi made sure to mention that Naruto, in terms of ninja skill and personality, takes after his mother and not his father; the only thing he inherited from his father was his looks
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Old 2007-08-29, 15:44   Link #28
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Still, I think the message is that anyone can accomplish their dreams, and break free of their destiny. If you think about it, regardless of his lineage, Naruto was still one of the worst ninja in the academy(if not the worst), yet his dream was to become Hokage. On top of that, he still does not know who his parents are, so the idea of his destiny being related to that issue remains both unimportant and inconsequential to him. Regardless of who his parents were, he still could have ended up being a terrible ninja, but he continued to work hard, got some good teachers, and developed his skills.

I'm not saying that he isn't destined to become Hokage because of who he is, but you have to agree that most of the power he has now came from his determination and desire, instead of from his lineage.
Ulquiorra's and Neji's point still stands however. Naruto may be (initially) a untalented ninja, but what Neji said still counts. When Neji was telling Naruto all these things, he didn't know (and still doesn't I don't think) know about the Kyuubi, or the fact that he's the Fourth's son. I don't believe in fate, but if you've ever read Oedipus Rex, it's a good comparison here. Naruto tries hard because people mistreated him, and they wouldn't have had his father not sealed the nine-tails into him. Naruto himself doesn't know who his father is, although it seems he may suspect or have figured it out on his own, his achievements are his own, but wouldn't even have come to pass if he didn't have the motivation that comes from him being the Jinchuuriki.

If anything, Neji is more an achiever in this regard than Naruto. He may have a Kekkei Genkai, but he's taken it far beyond what someone of the branch house should be able to, figuring out, on his own, mind you, moves only main branch members are taught. He's the only Jounin too.

Last edited by rd1979; 2007-08-29 at 15:47. Reason: Had more to say about Neji
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Old 2007-08-29, 15:55   Link #29
Zoe
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Originally Posted by 7thFonon View Post
I still don't think that Konoha would give him the same acceptance after leaving Konoha, especially at such a crucial time.
I think it's going to depend on the political state of Konoha. If Danzo and the current elders are still pulling the strings when he comes back, I definitely don't see him being pardoned. If it were just Tsunadae's people though, she seems to be a lot more compassionate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
actually, i think that in reguards to ninjas villages, it IS a crime to leave the village like that... ninjas that leave are considered missing-nin and are considered traitors... a ninja village is military afterall, and leaving would probably be considered the equalvilant to desertion. ninjas like Jiraiya, Tsunade and Shizune were more likely given permission to leave (jiraiya, according to the databooks actually has no listed rank)
And in modern society at least, Sasuke could be seen as liable for the things that happened to the genin. That's not even acknowledging the fact that he DID inflict mortal wounds upon Naruto.
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Old 2007-08-29, 15:59   Link #30
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Actually, I think a better thing to say is that, even though Naruto is the son of one of the greatest geniuses, he himself is not a genius. Whether or not he knew he was Yondiame's son would not have changed how hard Naruto had to work since it wouldn't have made him anymore taleted as a ninja... i think that's why Kishi made sure to mention that Naruto, in terms of ninja skill and personality, takes after his mother and not his father; the only thing he inherited from his father was his looks
These are the points I think disprove Ulquiorra and Neji's statements about fate. Well put, Slayerx.

However, I think that Kishi has failed to make Naruto truly shine on his own merits. Sure, his greatest victories have been due to strategy and guts (Kiba, Neji, Garaa), but he's often depending on the Kyuubi as a crutch that sees him through when he would have failed otherwise. And even when he's doing it on his own abilities, like with his new unfinished wind-based Rasengan, not only does Kishi ruin the moment by making him fail the first try for comedic effect, but he's now banned from using it by Godaime.

Not only that, just when we see a bit of real intelligence when he surmises that that he needs a certain number shadows to handle Kazaku, it's wasted by him failing. No wonder Sasuke is ranked higher in polls. Naruto should be using his ability to learn quicker with shadows much more (but still limited to make it not go overboard) so that his basic skills that should have already been improved upon anyway during his 2.5 years of absence.

If Naruto is ever going to become Hokage, its got to be believable. How is he ever going to if he's such a crappy ninja? His basic skills suck ass.
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:34   Link #31
Suna no tate
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I don't even see how this is a debate. Neji was totally right from the start. Destiny, fate, genes... those things play much bigger roles in determining how far someone goes in this manga than work ethic. Look at sasuke. Look at freaking naruto. Whats played a bigger role in him simply still being alive today? His work ethic or his freaking 9-tails stuck inside him and the genes of the 1st (or second) greatest ninja konoha has ever known*... Naruto's worked hard, but come on, the real credit goes to the kyubi and what it did to his body...



*of course its fair to counter argue that he'd still be alive without either because if he was a crappy ninja he wouldn't be exactly off fighting kakuzu alone...
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:38   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I don't even see how this is a debate. Neji was totally right from the start. Destiny, fate, genes... those things play much bigger roles in determining how far someone goes in this manga than work ethic. Look at sasuke. Look at freaking naruto. Whats played a bigger role in him simply still being alive today? His work ethic or his freaking 9-tails stuck inside him and the genes of the 1st (or second) greatest ninja konoha has ever known*... Naruto's worked hard, but come on, the real credit goes to the kyubi and what it did to his body...



*of course its fair to counter argue that he'd still be alive without either because if he was a crappy ninja he wouldn't be exactly off fighting kakuzu alone...
So you're argument is that his skill should be credited to the Kyuubi...that fact has absolutely no bearing on his lineage whatsoever. The fact that his father was the one who sealed the Kyuubi into him has absolutely nothing to do with his genes. The argument that he is who he is because of the Bijuu inside him is valid, but genetics have no place in that argument...at all...so, in that sense, Neji was wrong.
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:48   Link #33
Suna no tate
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but neji's argument is simply that a person's destiny is for the most part decided by the circumstances surrounding his birth (ie genetics, jinchuurikification, birth into a rich family, birth into a high level nin family, etc). I mean look at freaking shika. Can you say shika got to where he is by his own willpower? Or simply the damn good set of genes he received from his parents making him more or less the same as them? Same for chouji and for shino and even kiba... just saying; their parents are jounin but nothing special; their kids for the most part will probably end up like them too, good but nothing special. kakashi's dad was a legend and kakashi is himself a legend too having the nickname (copy ninja). Neji was right: for the most part, in the naruto universe, like father like son. This is quite simply why he was so angry cause his father was born on the wrong side of the family and neji feared that this maxim was bound to be forced upon him.
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:56   Link #34
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Inevitably, I don't think this argument can be won either way, because there are no definitive certainties. Even in your argument,..."for the most part...," makes the argument that Neji was right invalid, because it leaves open the possibilities that there are other factors determining the outcome of someones life. It's the same with Shikamaru. "...more or less..." leaves open the possibility that other factors determined his outcome. I'm not saying that it's definite that Naruto only became who he is because he worked hard, but you can't just ignore that fact and chalk it all up to genetics, because that's just not how it works.
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:01   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
but neji's argument is simply that a person's destiny is for the most part decided by the circumstances surrounding his birth (ie genetics, jinchuurikification, birth into a rich family, birth into a high level nin family, etc). I mean look at freaking shika. Can you say shika got to where he is by his own willpower? Or simply the damn good set of genes he received from his parents making him more or less the same as them? Same for chouji and for shino and even kiba... just saying; their parents are jounin but nothing special; their kids for the most part will probably end up like them too, good but nothing special. kakashi's dad was a legend and kakashi is himself a legend too having the nickname (copy ninja). Neji was right: for the most part, in the naruto universe, like father like son. This is quite simply why he was so angry cause his father was born on the wrong side of the family and neji feared that this maxim was bound to be forced upon him.
And again i must ask, what about Rock Lee...
Rock Lee is known for being born with a handicap, one that put him below the level of even an average ninja at brith; much less a true genius. Also there is nothing saying that his parents were anything special, they probably weren't even ninjas (we must rcall, many poeple in kohona are not ninjas)... by all means, if Destiny is determined by the circumstances surrounding your birth, than Rock Lee was clearly Destined to be a village. Rock Lee got to where he is today based on pure work ethic; i mean his character is practically defined by "hard work"... He may not be stronger than Geniuses like Sasuke and Neji, but he is stronger than most of his other peers; and considered his birth, that's definatly saying something... He was born below the talents of average ninja, but rose to surpass them; it's mostly only the geniuses that beat him... but they are another level

Again, if anyone is proof that Neji was wrong, it would be Rock Lee
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:36   Link #36
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If my memory doesn't fail me, leaving a village without permission is forbidden. You are automatically considered a traitor no matter where you go and what are your plans. Don't forget why hunter nins are for. Who cares if he killed Oro, he was learning from him, he is using his jutsu even manda (or whatever that snake was) and then he killed him off because he was becoming useless to him.

Ok back on topic.
I don't think Neji was right. You can't just be hokage if your super daddy was. Well, at least Naruto. Do any of you think of him as a "genius"??? If it wasn't for the 9-tails he would be just an ordinary ninja. Well at least I can imagine him that way, since he sucked big time before Jiraiya trained him. I would compare Naruto with Lee. Both trained hard...and what was that line..hard work will surpass genius?
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:45   Link #37
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"Even a dropout can surpass a genius with hard work."

And I think that quote epitomizes precisely why Neji was wrong...

But that's just me *breaks out flame shield*
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Old 2007-08-29, 19:20   Link #38
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Well, Sasuke has routinely tried to kill people throughout the series, he just always fails(just like everybody else). This pacifistic streak seemingly appeared out of thin air shortly before he betrayed Oro, I guess because Kishi wanted to make him look like a loveable teddy bear in preparation for his becoming a main character again.
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Old 2007-08-29, 19:45   Link #39
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Well, Sasuke has routinely tried to kill people throughout the series, he just always fails(just like everybody else). This pacifistic streak seemingly appeared out of thin air shortly before he betrayed Oro, I guess because Kishi wanted to make him look like a loveable teddy bear in preparation for his becoming a main character again.
I don't think it's been routine. Off the top of my head, I can think of him trying to kill Haku, and the three sound ninja during the Chuunin exam. I look at the Haku fight as him trying to test his power, and the three sound ninja I don't chalk up to Sasuke because he was under the influence of Orochimaru's power, without having the control he has now. Other than that, I can't think of him definitively trying to kill anyone, but I may be drawing a blank.

Either way, not really discussion for this thread, though the topic seems to have been abandoned anyway...
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Old 2007-08-29, 21:23   Link #40
Sabaku Kyu
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I don't think it's been routine. Off the top of my head, I can think of him trying to kill Haku, and the three sound ninja during the Chuunin exam. I look at the Haku fight as him trying to test his power, and the three sound ninja I don't chalk up to Sasuke because he was under the influence of Orochimaru's power, without having the control he has now. Other than that, I can't think of him definitively trying to kill anyone, but I may be drawing a blank.

Either way, not really discussion for this thread, though the topic seems to have been abandoned anyway...
I think you're forgetting the most infamous example, the time he stabbed Naruto through the chest with chidori. If Naruto had not managed to deflect the blow a little it would have instantly killed him, and the wound still would've been fatal without the Kyuubi's chakra. Undoubtedly, that was Sasuke's most violent and evil moment so far

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but neji's argument is simply that a person's destiny is for the most part decided by the circumstances surrounding his birth (ie genetics, jinchuurikification, birth into a rich family, birth into a high level nin family, etc).
I wouldn't say that Neji was talking about inheriting genes when he was talking about one's birth deciding what they would become. By that argument, Neji should've thought highly of Hinata since she was born into the main family. But he considered Hinata to be trash just like Naruto because she had always been weak, and in Neji's opinion, would always remain weak. Also, there's Sarutobi who doesn't seem to have come from any prominent family or inherited a special bloodline but still became one of the strongest Hokage. However, unlike Naruto, Sarutobi was considered a genius from the start.

Neji's view was that people ultimately don't change. If you were strong from the start, you will be strong. If you were weak, then you will always remain weak. That's where folks like Naruto and Lee proved Neji wrong, as they were able to change themselves and surpass what people expected from them. Inheritance doesn't really play much part in the argument, the message was about the ability for one to change and improve themselves.
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