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Old 2008-02-02, 21:00   Link #61
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
shinobi inst military and you havent read what i said. Nor can you actually say or know what the rules are for joining or becoming a genin. As we have seen in this show konoha and the shinobi in konoha for me doesnt seem as a if they BELONG as an object to konoha. Konoha cant demind from its ninja's that they will always live there at least i dont get the feeling they(konoha) tell how the genins should live their lives. So either 1st you give an awnser on that and say yes konoha can say how sasuke lives his lives and what he needs to do for the rest of his live or dont whine when he leaves the village.

either konoha are slave drivers who tell kids what they have to do or they have some moral grounds and enroll ninja's when they are 18 years old. if they dont do that then i care less whether or not someone leaves or does something wrong in their(konoha) eyes. when your young you make mistakes, and seeing how no justice is done towards itachi as if he is forgotten and/or update sasuke id say they pretty dumb.

what your saying is that if some scientist in russia who has great knowledge of godknows what goes to his familiy in america cuz of whatever reason is then a traitor cuz russia says so. Then you think too simple minded.
The shinobi are military... Their missions contists of fighting battles, working assassinations, spying, body guarding and so forth; and during a time of war, they are the bulk of the military force for their country.

The genin are given a CHOICE to become ninjas... Whiles it's true parents might force it on their kids, Kohona itself doesn't force anyone; there are plenty of people and children within the village that lead ordinary lives and have normal jobs. Before they become Genin the students have the ability to not become ninjas... considering how they go over all the rules of being a ninja, such as not allowing emotions to get in the way, its easy to assume that they include everything about staying loyal to the village, the fact that they are risking their lives, and the life of a ninja... if the students CHOOSE to remain in the program despite all of that, then they have chosen their fate.

Is there a proper way to leave the ninja-life and possibly also leave the village properly... maybe... we know that both Jiriaya and Tsunade eventually left the village... more than likely, considering their status, they were able to put foward an official resignation and get permission from the 3rd hokage to leave (unlike an average ninja, the hokage can make these kinds of decisions cause he has far better judgment and authority)... that fact that they were both very powerful was probably another reassuring fact about them... if a genin wanted to leave he might be able to go through similar proceedures and get an official resignation
Quote:
sasuke doenst have evil intentions towards konoha so he isnt a traitor. a traitor is someone who backstabs you and does something towards you. sasuke didnt do and does not do anything towards konoha so he isnt a traitor.

konoha and you might think he is a traitor but that naive thinking for me at least.

the only thing tsunade will do is ask him his reasons for leaving and why he did not say so etc etc etc. she has no right to tell him he needs to be punished. what she gonna say yeah you left the village because of that im gonna kill you?

thats why i say you either tell the rules for joining as a genin and talk about the moral issues with regards of 12 year old being genin or simply dont whine about this issue cuz it doenst hold much ground. I understand you think its a traitor thig buts sasuke allegiance is not changed. i see it more as a spy within oro. Sai is more of a traitor for a few split seconds^^
One thing to note is that i never once called sasuke a "traitor" in that post; i did however point out how many he things he did wrong to kohona (likely punishable things) things that did endanger Kohona and its ninjas... He may not have DONE anything to kohona, but he damn well did place it in serious risk... At most anypoint, Oro could have chosen to lock up Sasuke, drug him or any number of things a leave him helpless to resist his Sharigan being taken and adding to Oro's power; he had no method to prevent that... Again, unless your making a "the ends justify the means" arguement, then the results of Sasuke's leaving does NOT excuse any of his actions up to that point (namely, endangering Kohona and attack it's ninjas)

and ofcourse, tsunade has the right to punish him, she's the head of the entire village and he is a villager... whether he likes it or not he is to follow the laws of the village... and since he is a kohona ninja, she is also his commander and bascially agreed to fight under the "hokage" the day he became a Genin; as such he is subject to any rules she may lay down and punishment for disobeying those rules
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Old 2008-02-02, 23:23   Link #62
james0246
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post

sasuke doenst have evil intentions towards konoha so he isnt a traitor. a traitor is someone who backstabs you and does something towards you. sasuke didnt do and does not do anything towards konoha so he isnt a traitor.

konoha and you might think he is a traitor but that naive thinking for me at least.
Since Slayerx explained to you why Shinobi our a military organization (how you can think they are not a military organization is beyond me), I will just talk about the inbold text. Specifically wether or nor Sasuke can be called 'evil'. Now, I am prepared to give a lecture concerning the sociological and theological definitions of evil and how Sasuke meets the criteria to be called 'evil', but let us skip all of that and just talk about his defections inregards to a system of laws.

Within any countries/communties legal system, a crime is commited when an individual decides to break a law: a predetermined set of rules used to govern society. But, to break a law, one must first understand the difference between right and wrong, if you can not understand the difference you are either insane, retarded, our a child (this is of course a gross simplification of humanity and law, but it is a useful simplification for this argument.) Sasuke, when he set out to join Orochimaru, had a firm understanding of what was considered 'right' and 'wrong' or 'legal' and illegal'. By deciding to deffect and to abandon his villiage, no matter what he was abanding it for, Sasuke has knowingly choosen an illegal course of action (yes there is a law preventing a Shinobi from deserting their post): a 'wrong' course of action.

By choosing this 'wrong' decision, Sasuke has effectively become 'evil', for evil in socities eyes is simply someone who actively goes against society and societies laws. True, it could be argued that the Laws of Konoha are unjust or unlawful, and in that case Sasuke would not be 'evil'. But, I doubt that you could mount an argument that states that Konoha's laws are unjust. So, that must mean that Sasuke is in the wrong. So Sasuke is evil.

Also, to tie back into the thread on hand, it seems to be the destiny of the Uchiha clan to become crazy or evil at some point or other during their lifespans (How did you like that tie-in ).

(Realistically, the only way we can determine if Sasuke is truly evil, and not just sociologically evil, is to discuss the theological and philosophical implications of his actions, but that seems too boring for a forum thread concerning an avaerage Anime/Manga.)
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Old 2008-02-03, 03:19   Link #63
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Since Slayerx explained to you why Shinobi our a military organization (how you can think they are not a military organization is beyond me), I will just talk about the inbold text. Specifically wether or nor Sasuke can be called 'evil'. Now, I am prepared to give a lecture concerning the sociological and theological definitions of evil and how Sasuke meets the criteria to be called 'evil', but let us skip all of that and just talk about his defections inregards to a system of laws.

Within any countries/communties legal system, a crime is commited when an individual decides to break a law: a predetermined set of rules used to govern society. But, to break a law, one must first understand the difference between right and wrong, if you can not understand the difference you are either insane, retarded, our a child (this is of course a gross simplification of humanity and law, but it is a useful simplification for this argument.) Sasuke, when he set out to join Orochimaru, had a firm understanding of what was considered 'right' and 'wrong' or 'legal' and illegal'. By deciding to deffect and to abandon his villiage, no matter what he was abanding it for, Sasuke has knowingly choosen an illegal course of action (yes there is a law preventing a Shinobi from deserting their post): a 'wrong' course of action.
Meh, I was set on proving that Sasuke could never be accepted back into Konoha until Hunter reminded me of a very obvious fact... that Gaara was accepted back into his village despite the fact that he was one the most hated and feared murders ever known in the Suna.

There is a difference in Sasuke and Gaara in that Gaara never went so far as to betray and abandon his own village, he simply carried out orders under his own terms for his own pleasure. But if Sasuke were to make a big enough sacrifice for Konoha such as Gaara did for the Suna, then I guess he could be accepted back again. Though it would have to be a considerably large sacrifice.
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Old 2008-02-03, 04:07   Link #64
james0246
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Meh, I was set on proving that Sasuke could never be accepted back into Konoha until Hunter reminded me of a very obvious fact... that Gaara was accepted back into his village despite the fact that he was one the most hated and feared murders ever known in the Suna.

There is a difference in Sasuke and Gaara in that Gaara never went so far as to betray and abandon his own village, he simply carried out orders under his own terms for his own pleasure. But if Sasuke were to make a big enough sacrifice for Konoha such as Gaara did for the Suna, then I guess he could be accepted back again. Though it would have to be a considerably large sacrifice.
I do not know if any sacrifice would suffice.

When it gets right down to it Gaara came from a village that actively tried to kill him...and this was before he became a homicidal maniac. Suna was a village that had lost the right to call its actions lawful, at least in regards to Gaara, whereas Konoha has done nothing but help Sasuke, and then Sasuke betrayed them. Additionally we do not know who Gaara was responsible for killing in Suna. If it was simply the assassins sent after him, then Gaara merely defended himself, and based on the fact that the Shinobi of Suna seem to accept him, I think it is safe to assume that the only people Gaara killed in Suna were Assassins. Anyone else that he killed occured during a mission.

I did come off as a little preachy in my previous post, for that I apologize. But, even if you were to use a different lens to analyze Sasuke's deffection, I can not help but fell that there is anything he can do to actually make up for his betrayal. Sasuke did not just betray his position, nor did he just betray his friends or his home. He betrayed the hopes and dreams of an entire village, and entire village that looked up to him and were willing to place their future in his hands. True, these burdens were not his to take, but then neither was the burden of defeating Itachi before he revived his clan.

Then again, maybe I am simply being to hard on the boy, and boy is definitely what he is. And, I am also a proponent of retribution and redemption, so I can not completly say that Sasuke has no chance of redemption in the eyes of Konoha.

Damn we are really off topic here. I think Neji was partially correct. At least in the assumption that who you know or who you are related to will influence how far and how large you can become in life...then again that is somewhat tautalogical since we have always known that nepotism helps to grease the wheels, so to say. As for talks of destiny, well I really do not believe in destiny, only choices, so Neji's talk and consequently Naruto's sudden relations do not matter to me in regards to destiny. It is only what someone does with their connections that matter.

Last edited by james0246; 2008-02-03 at 04:38.
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Old 2008-02-03, 09:06   Link #65
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Originally Posted by 7thFonon View Post
Ok, the only ones who probably want Sasuke back is Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi because they knew him personally. To the rest of Konoha, he is a bad guy. So what if he attacked Akatsuki, so did Orochimaru. Who wants a person who has betrayed his own team twice? (team 7, Orochimaru) Not to mention his country.

As far as what is shown in the manga, Sasuke has killed (innocent or not) waay more people than anyone ever shown within the storyline. In the early Sasuke arc, there was a scene that showed Sasuke surrounded by corpses that he probably killed without a second thought. All Sasuke is focused on is killing, and his own personal benefit. Sasuke is basically the last person Konoha would invite back, even after Itachi. Itachi could have easily killed Sasuke (twice), Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma. Yet he doesn't resort to that. If that was Sasuke, then they would all be dead. So as far as the story goes, Sasuke has been a greater threat (not saying he is stronger) to others than most other renegade ninjas.
He didn't kill any of them, none of them was dead. He attacked Akatsuki, a group who is trying to collect all of the bjuu's, 1 of which belong to Naruto. He killed Oro, avenging the 3rd Hokage.

He is trying to kill Itachi, who murdered his clan, a clan widely known in Konoha. After that, he plans on killing Madara, the guy who summoned the nine tails on Konoha in the first place. Maybe then, he will either:

-Become a longer
-Die
-Go back to Nar/Sak/Kak which I highly doubt.
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Old 2008-02-03, 11:01   Link #66
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
I do not know if any sacrifice would suffice.

When it gets right down to it Gaara came from a village that actively tried to kill him...and this was before he became a homicidal maniac. Suna was a village that had lost the right to call its actions lawful, at least in regards to Gaara, whereas Konoha has done nothing but help Sasuke, and then Sasuke betrayed them. Additionally we do not know who Gaara was responsible for killing in Suna. If it was simply the assassins sent after him, then Gaara merely defended himself, and based on the fact that the Shinobi of Suna seem to accept him, I think it is safe to assume that the only people Gaara killed in Suna were Assassins. Anyone else that he killed occured during a mission.
Gaara has killed innocents before, albeit he had no real control over it. There was at least one shown incident where he killed an innocent and another where he was about to kill innocents...children at that. How many others he's killed is still a unknown as killing only became easier for him as time went on. Still, I admit he's never seemed to kill indiscriminately. And yes, from an outside view the Sand's actions against him could be deemed unlawful, but within the village they saw it as protecting their home by eliminating a dangerous power. Everyone was terrified of him

But giving up his life to save the village seems to have instantly undid all that. When Gaara "died", suddenly, all the Sand shinobi cried over him like he had always been their dear, old Kazekage. He even had fangirls fawning over him.

I don't really like the idea of Sasuke being accepted back into the village, nor do I think he'll come back. But I have to admit that it could easily happen given Naruto's influence over the others. So far, the only people who have treated Sasuke like a traitor (and handled his defection like I would expect from shinobi ) are Danzou and Sai.


Quote:
Damn we are really off topic here. I think Neji was partially correct. At least in the assumption that who you know or who you are related to will influence how far and how large you can become in life...
I don't think discussing Sasuke is too off-topic. Because his fate can be tied back to what Neji said also. Neji's words really could be applied to a lot of people in the story. Itachi, Jiraiya, Pein all of them believe(d) they have an unavoidable fate to follow. Sasuke too, he is so wrapped up in his fate as an avenger that he's basically trapped himself within it.
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Old 2008-02-03, 11:30   Link #67
ShadowAssasin
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Gaara was accepted back into his village despite the fact that he was one the most hated and feared murders ever known in the Suna.
I wasn't aware he left the village to be accepted "back".


I don't look at Sauske as a "traitor", he left the village to get elite training from someone who could increase his growth rate EXPONETIALLY; and thatís exactly what happened. I guess you can call him an "anti-hero" (a hero, but not the goody goody type of hero); yes he ran off and sought training from their enemy but to avenge his parents and his entire clan. Of course he's going to place that at a higher priority, whatís wrong with you guys who can't see that lol? Wouldnít you do that if you had the chance to go after someone who killed your whole family and everyone in your neighborhood? (Other friends and relatives, come on) Thatís why I view him as the anti-hero.

Now all three of them have received training by a Sannin. Oro fits sauskeís personality the best and heís the most talented/best Sannin. Sauske made a perfect decision; Kakashi couldnít have made him better than he is now. (neither could have tsunade or jir)
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Old 2008-02-03, 11:39   Link #68
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
The shinobi are military... Their missions contists of fighting battles, working assassinations, spying, body guarding and so forth; and during a time of war, they are the bulk of the military force for their country.

The genin are given a CHOICE to become ninjas... Whiles it's true parents might force it on their kids, Kohona itself doesn't force anyone; there are plenty of people and children within the village that lead ordinary lives and have normal jobs. Before they become Genin the students have the ability to not become ninjas... considering how they go over all the rules of being a ninja, such as not allowing emotions to get in the way, its easy to assume that they include everything about staying loyal to the village, the fact that they are risking their lives, and the life of a ninja... if the students CHOOSE to remain in the program despite all of that, then they have chosen their fate.

Is there a proper way to leave the ninja-life and possibly also leave the village properly... maybe... we know that both Jiriaya and Tsunade eventually left the village... more than likely, considering their status, they were able to put foward an official resignation and get permission from the 3rd hokage to leave (unlike an average ninja, the hokage can make these kinds of decisions cause he has far better judgment and authority)... that fact that they were both very powerful was probably another reassuring fact about them... if a genin wanted to leave he might be able to go through similar proceedures and get an official resignation
shinobi's are not soldiers. Shinobi's are spies they dont do the dayly activities of soldiers at all. about the fighting battles shinobi's isnt supposed to get caught seen at all. Btw in war time they dont put shinobi in the army to die in the front line rather peasants if they are in needs for more men. shinoi work for their lord and not a general.

about the last part i agree with that i you just dont know these circumstances to say anything about what us right or wrong at this point
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
One thing to note is that i never once called sasuke a "traitor" in that post; i did however point out how many he things he did wrong to kohona (likely punishable things) things that did endanger Kohona and its ninjas... He may not have DONE anything to kohona, but he damn well did place it in serious risk... At most anypoint, Oro could have chosen to lock up Sasuke, drug him or any number of things a leave him helpless to resist his Sharigan being taken and adding to Oro's power; he had no method to prevent that... Again, unless your making a "the ends justify the means" arguement, then the results of Sasuke's leaving does NOT excuse any of his actions up to that point (namely, endangering Kohona and attack it's ninjas)

and ofcourse, tsunade has the right to punish him, she's the head of the entire village and he is a villager... whether he likes it or not he is to follow the laws of the village... and since he is a kohona ninja, she is also his commander and bascially agreed to fight under the "hokage" the day he became a Genin; as such he is subject to any rules she may lay down and punishment for disobeying those rules
while i agree on the he endangered konoha when going to oro i disagree with the punishment. Simply because he aint no part of konoha anymore. He choose to leave and also cut his ties with them. So if tsunade captures him she cant punish him as you are our ninja bla bla bla thats what i meant. The reasons why have been said a couple of times already. For sasuke it seems the end justify the means and based on that she will have to take that in consideration.

Quote:
Since Slayerx explained to you why Shinobi our a military organization (how you can think they are not a military organization is beyond me), I will just talk about the inbold text. Specifically wether or nor Sasuke can be called 'evil'. Now, I am prepared to give a lecture concerning the sociological and theological definitions of evil and how Sasuke meets the criteria to be called 'evil', but let us skip all of that and just talk about his defections inregards to a system of laws.

Within any countries/communties legal system, a crime is commited when an individual decides to break a law: a predetermined set of rules used to govern society. But, to break a law, one must first understand the difference between right and wrong, if you can not understand the difference you are either insane, retarded, our a child (this is of course a gross simplification of humanity and law, but it is a useful simplification for this argument.) Sasuke, when he set out to join Orochimaru, had a firm understanding of what was considered 'right' and 'wrong' or 'legal' and illegal'. By deciding to deffect and to abandon his villiage, no matter what he was abanding it for, Sasuke has knowingly choosen an illegal course of action (yes there is a law preventing a Shinobi from deserting their post): a 'wrong' course of action.

By choosing this 'wrong' decision, Sasuke has effectively become 'evil', for evil in socities eyes is simply someone who actively goes against society and societies laws. True, it could be argued that the Laws of Konoha are unjust or unlawful, and in that case Sasuke would not be 'evil'. But, I doubt that you could mount an argument that states that Konoha's laws are unjust. So, that must mean that Sasuke is in the wrong. So Sasuke is evil.

Also, to tie back into the thread on hand, it seems to be the destiny of the Uchiha clan to become crazy or evil at some point or other during their lifespans (How did you like that tie-in ).

(Realistically, the only way we can determine if Sasuke is truly evil, and not just sociologically evil, is to discuss the theological and philosophical implications of his actions, but that seems too boring for a forum thread concerning an avaerage Anime/Manga.)
why dont you tell me why he is evil what evil things did he do

btw in my statement evil intentions what i mean is evil as ambitions to crush konoha or bring it down. Btw i was talking about a traitor someone who has and does something to a group country he onces belongs and mainly on the does part here.

Basically i dont see him as a traitor. Simply because the way shinobi are now displayed for me doenst show that they hold firm rules over these kids that i would say it would apply for sasuke. If that was the case what your going at. Then tsunade would be putting favorism for sasuke compared to passed cases because of naruto. if what you said is true then they would have to say sasuke has broken the law bla bla bla bla and he will be put to death. Instead its like ooh dont worry about that.

So based on that i dont really see it like you do simply because naruto isnt a serious show. If they were serious then i would change my opinion. But because he isnt even put as an missing nin. those rules of our world you hold so dear to dont hold ground in the naruto world at all.
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Old 2008-02-03, 13:07   Link #69
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
shinobi's are not soldiers. Shinobi's are spies they dont do the dayly activities of soldiers at all. about the fighting battles shinobi's isnt supposed to get caught seen at all. Btw in war time they dont put shinobi in the army to die in the front line rather peasants if they are in needs for more men. shinoi work for their lord and not a general.
Well now i can see where you are getting the notion that "shinobi are not soldiers"; You are thinking of Shinobi more as their function in the REAL world, but we are talking about the Naruto World. In the Naruto-verse the function of ninjas within a country is different. Ninjas ARE the military force for the country; in times of war the ninjas are the captians, generals and so forth, with the highest commander being the hokage who only answer to the countries lords. Ninja's in the real world only had the ability to do individual killings and aren't capable of using the massive Jutsu's that ninjas of the Naruto-verse can use, and so they were used as spies; but ninjas in the Naruto-verse are far more capable at killing than any ordinary man and as such THEY are used as the military force... in the Naruto-verse, War's are fought between ninjas, not ordinary people (unless ofcourse the sides involved have no ninjas of their own and can afford to hire them)

Quote:
about the last part i agree with that i you just dont know these circumstances to say anything about what us right or wrong at this point
while i agree on the he endangered konoha when going to oro i disagree with the punishment. Simply because he aint no part of konoha anymore. He choose to leave and also cut his ties with them. So if tsunade captures him she cant punish him as you are our ninja bla bla bla thats what i meant. The reasons why have been said a couple of times already. For sasuke it seems the end justify the means and based on that she will have to take that in consideration.
Yes she can punish him... when he was a part of Kohona and part of their ninja forces he was subject to the laws of Kohona and the rules of the hokage. One of those rules forbid abandoning the village on your own accord and another being that you are not supposed to anything to endanger village... Both of these are very serious rules and Sasuke broke both of them while he chose to leave an go to Orochimaru. As such he should be subject to punishment once he is brought back to Kohona... Even though he decided himself to leave, the hokage did not give him permission to do so... He does not have the freedom to just come and go as he pleases; he agreed to this when he became a ninja as those are the rules... Leaving the village does not absolve him of his crimes since leaving the village in and of its-self was a crime.

Also, in most cases, the ends do not justify the means... Afterall to not punish Sasuke for these actions would only mean to admit that what he did was alright... think of what would happen if someone were to look at sasuke's case, attempt to follow his example by endangering the village as a means to an end but then end up failing and result in putting the village in danger (damn well know that the chances of Sasuke coming out on top like he did were slim considering what Oro could have done to prevent it)... Everyone in the village would curse his name for doing something like that; an ordinary ninja does NOT have the right to put the thousands of lives at risk on a gamble... the only one who has that right is the hokage as they are the chosen leader of the village

not to mention that many of Sasuke's actions were not intended to help kohona, but to only help himself... He killed Oro and Deidara because they were in his way, not because they were kohona's enemies; His is fighting Itachi and possibly Madara because of his own vengeance, not kohona's... by all means, had Sasuke saw in necessary to kill a kohona shinobi to meet his ends he would have done it. He has never once thought about the benefit of Kohona in all his actions.
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Old 2008-02-03, 13:27   Link #70
james0246
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
shinobi's are not soldiers. Shinobi's are spies they dont do the dayly activities of soldiers at all. about the fighting battles shinobi's isnt supposed to get caught seen at all. Btw in war time they dont put shinobi in the army to die in the front line rather peasants if they are in needs for more men. shinoi work for their lord and not a general.

about the last part i agree with that i you just dont know these circumstances to say anything about what us right or wrong at this point
while i agree on the he endangered konoha when going to oro i disagree with the punishment. Simply because he aint no part of konoha anymore. He choose to leave and also cut his ties with them. So if tsunade captures him she cant punish him as you are our ninja bla bla bla thats what i meant. The reasons why have been said a couple of times already. For sasuke it seems the end justify the means and based on that she will have to take that in consideration.

why dont you tell me why he is evil what evil things did he do

btw in my statement evil intentions what i mean is evil as ambitions to crush konoha or bring it down. Btw i was talking about a traitor someone who has and does something to a group country he onces belongs and mainly on the does part here.

Basically i dont see him as a traitor. Simply because the way shinobi are now displayed for me doenst show that they hold firm rules over these kids that i would say it would apply for sasuke. If that was the case what your going at. Then tsunade would be putting favorism for sasuke compared to passed cases because of naruto. if what you said is true then they would have to say sasuke has broken the law bla bla bla bla and he will be put to death. Instead its like ooh dont worry about that.

So based on that i dont really see it like you do simply because naruto isnt a serious show. If they were serious then i would change my opinion. But because he isnt even put as an missing nin. those rules of our world you hold so dear to dont hold ground in the naruto world at all.
'Evil' in the situation I described is simply a sociologocial concept in which a person knowingly and willingly goes against society. This is a literal definition of evil in the eyes of society, you do not need to become a pedophiliac crazed scientist looking for immortality to be considered 'evil', you simply need to break the rules. Look at Kakashi's father, since he broke a rule, he was considered 'evil' by society, and was shunned into suicide becuase of it. (In Kakashi's father's case the laws of the land treated him unfairly). We know for a fact, even if you do not wish to call them laws, that Shinobi have a Code Book of Rules. Sakura, earlier in the series, used to repeat these rules. These rules were also taught in the academy, and if you did not know them or enough of them then you could not pass the academy's final exam (you have to pass the Jounin-Instructor's exam to actually become a Genin). So to say there are no rules or regulations in becoming or staying a Shinobi is simply wrong.

I think, more than anything, you are caught up in the notion that a military organization is hiring children for their war time efforts. Because they are children you seem to think that they do not have to follow the same rules as the adults. But, that is not the case. Once they become Genin they are bound by the same rules and regulations as all Shinobi. Their rank nor their age matters. If you want to be technical, Itachi was not much older than Sasuke when he betrayed the village by commiting the atrocity of killing his clan. Once you are a Shinobi, and once you have broken a rule or regulation set down by the Hokage or the Village, then you are 'evil'. As I said in a previous post this is a very black and white, sociologically viewpoint of 'evil' in which a crime like Sasuke's is weighed the same as a crime like Itachi's. (I do not personally believe that Sasuke's crime is as bad as Itachi's, but if Sasuke kills even one active Konoha shinobi, then he will cross the line and will not be acceptable to the village anymore.)

Also, You do bring up a good point, I am not sure if Sasuke is considered a missing-nin or not. Ideally he should be considered a missing-nin, but I am not sure that it is ever mentioned in the manga if he one or not. There is no good reason why he should not be labeled a missing-nin.
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Old 2008-02-03, 14:30   Link #71
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Well now i can see where you are getting the notion that "shinobi are not soldiers"; You are thinking of Shinobi more as their function in the REAL world, but we are talking about the Naruto World. In the Naruto-verse the function of ninjas within a country is different. Ninjas ARE the military force for the country; in times of war the ninjas are the captians, generals and so forth, with the highest commander being the hokage who only answer to the countries lords. Ninja's in the real world only had the ability to do individual killings and aren't capable of using the massive Jutsu's that ninjas of the Naruto-verse can use, and so they were used as spies; but ninjas in the Naruto-verse are far more capable at killing than any ordinary man and as such THEY are used as the military force... in the Naruto-verse, War's are fought between ninjas, not ordinary people (unless ofcourse the sides involved have no ninjas of their own and can afford to hire them)

Yes she can punish him... when he was a part of Kohona and part of their ninja forces he was subject to the laws of Kohona and the rules of the hokage. One of those rules forbid abandoning the village on your own accord and another being that you are not supposed to anything to endanger village... Both of these are very serious rules and Sasuke broke both of them while he chose to leave an go to Orochimaru. As such he should be subject to punishment once he is brought back to Kohona... Even though he decided himself to leave, the hokage did not give him permission to do so... He does not have the freedom to just come and go as he pleases; he agreed to this when he became a ninja as those are the rules... Leaving the village does not absolve him of his crimes since leaving the village in and of its-self was a crime.

Also, in most cases, the ends do not justify the means... Afterall to not punish Sasuke for these actions would only mean to admit that what he did was alright... think of what would happen if someone were to look at sasuke's case, attempt to follow his example by endangering the village as a means to an end but then end up failing and result in putting the village in danger (damn well know that the chances of Sasuke coming out on top like he did were slim considering what Oro could have done to prevent it)... Everyone in the village would curse his name for doing something like that; an ordinary ninja does NOT have the right to put the thousands of lives at risk on a gamble... the only one who has that right is the hokage as they are the chosen leader of the village

not to mention that many of Sasuke's actions were not intended to help kohona, but to only help himself... He killed Oro and Deidara because they were in his way, not because they were kohona's enemies; His is fighting Itachi and possibly Madara because of his own vengeance, not kohona's... by all means, had Sasuke saw in necessary to kill a kohona shinobi to meet his ends he would have done it. He has never once thought about the benefit of Kohona in all his actions.
yeah i completely forgot about that somehow the change of all these concepts starts to confuse me.

Not to mention that the ethical issue with allowing kids in this so called army then becomes more of another big mess. For me however how they portay these shinobi is completely messed up. Because i dont not see the YEs sir no sir etc bla bla. Also how it seems more like a job as bodyguards for me itd oesnt feel as if they are military as the our world knowledge.

if you look at it from this angle when i see them doing jobs as finding a lost cat. The notion of army for me gets lost and i dont take it serious when they talk about army. i hope you can understand what im trying to say. I get what your trying to say now cuz i do recall somehwere that they said something about army etc somewhere around ep 50 - 60 igeuss. Anyway. It becomes mute for me with how they act and do in konoha.

Which is why i do not see sasuke leaving as an act of violating orders becames of the fact how konoha is. Nor have they been stated by the author in the serie.

About tsunade doing her job and all i get what your saying and thats how it works in our world but she is doing everything but that. Your talking more like danzou now and from what ive seen or what kishi wants to show us it not like that all. if however they were firm in their poilcy and all the bullcrap of happy happy etc was gone then id say ok she can punish.

Like for example if this was claymore and claymore 2 leaves immediatly she is targetted. Or a judgement is made. However now in naruto because of naruto sasuke based on naruto world concepts is like he left we need to bring him back so he can be in our team again that doenst show me that they act and do as you say. Our world military concept dont hold ground in this naruto world then because everything is messed up. Hell if what you said was true Tsunade would have told naruto that he is an missing nin criminal she doesnt say or act do that way. Which is why i ssay she cnat punish him cuz i dont believe this konoha is an army as we see it. Nor do the rules we hold on our world apply here.

@james3wk i am talking about pedophiliac crazed scientist simply because in the naruto world they only focus on those things. Thats why i said evil intensions. you can simply put wrong in all your sentences and it would make alot more sence when relating to this show.

When i watch this show and i think about kakashi's father evil would in my mind bring him in the same league as orochimaru.

About the rules. i said dont "hold firm rules" simply because they are very lose with those genins, they dont execute what they preach. If i believe or thought otherwise every incident would be handled strictly according military regulation unfortunatly that isnt the case. Then i would say yeah if they capture him they are gonna put em in jail. Now i dont think that isnt the case. and they dont have much to hold him account for. Simply because he can state arguments that would put his actions in favour of konoha.

yes sasuke your a traitor and should be put to death.

sasuke: no cuz i dont have any evil intentions towards konoha, and i killed oro and i killed itachi an di killed an akatsuki. what they gonns say yeah you still gonna get trial put to jail because he broke rules. then naruto come sin the picture and its all forgotten. Thats why i saiy she cnat do shit against him.


And yeah i do think and believe Kids in what you guys bring up as an army is to be taken seriously because i dont see it as the same as with adults. Nor do i think that in our world a kid in a war zone helping an army even if he joined temporary would get punished like an adult would. Thats my opinion, and you know why cuz they would still treat him like a minor no sane judge would trial a 12 year old as a 18 year old even them kids in africa who is war children arent trialed as adults so no i dont think believe sasuke would be crimed and punished as kakashi would.

THATS what i believe.

Also sauske doenst want nor have a reason to go back to konoha. Instead its them that want him back.
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Old 2008-02-03, 14:49   Link #72
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Sasuke technically is a traitor in the eyes of the village and labeled a rogue ninja because crossing the borders without permission is a crime whether he's wanted back by whoever that doesnt change that little fact.
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Old 2008-02-03, 15:39   Link #73
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Thank you for explaining your point of view more clearly than before. While I agree with you, in the real world, that children, whether they are forced to or seemingly willingly, participate in War our war-like activities should not neccessairly be tried our condemned as adults; in the Naruto-verse, on the other hand, there seems to be no clear distinction between an Adult and a Child so children that become Shinobi are actually adults. In fact, the only child that ever actually acts like a child is Konohamaru and his friends. No other children in the series actually act their age. Added to that, presumably the Shinobi Academy, while training their students to kill, will also train them to understand that they need to kill. While you can not see this type of training in Sakura, this training is evident in Naruto, Sasuke, Neji, Ino, Shikamaru, Chouji, et cetera, et cetera. Added to that, presumably all of these students have formally and consciously decided that if they need to they will kill to protect themselves and their families, friends, and village.

This is the difference between the real world and the imaginary one that Kishimoto has created. In the real world, a young child would never know enough to make a conscious decision that they can kill and can accept the consequences of that action. A child in the real world could never, or hopefully never, understand what they are doing in regards to murder or war. In the Naruto-verse, though, for whatever reason, children have the mental facilitates to process and understand the concept of War and the belief that one can fight to protect themselves or their village. So a child in this world can and will be tried as an adult because they are adults in the eyes of the law.
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Old 2008-02-03, 15:44   Link #74
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Sasuke technically is a traitor in the eyes of the village and labeled a rogue ninja because crossing the borders without permission is a crime whether he's wanted back by whoever that doesnt change that little fact.
ugh, he is not a traitor. He didn't join the side of an opposing faction and attack the leaf village. He left the village to get training from the person who he thought could make him the strongest. And, he was right; Kakashi couldn't have made him stronger than oro did. Neither could Jir. or Tsunade. He got training from the best sannin; its as simple as that. Orochimaru happens to be one of their village's most notorious enemy's, however he is not trying to plot against kohana. He wants train to kill Itachi and avenge his family and clan. ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT; WTF IS THE CONFUSION ABOUT. The village should appropriatly label him as a rogue ninja or a missing nin. He did injure naruto; however that fight was result of an ever growing rivalry between naruto&sauske that has begun way before he even knew/heard of orochimaru. That fight actually started while he was still in the village; but kakashi stopped it(for that time being).
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Old 2008-02-03, 15:50   Link #75
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Thank you for explaining your point of view more clearly than before. While I agree with you, in the real world, that children, whether they are forced to or seemingly willingly, participate in War our war-like activities should not neccessairly be tried our condemned as adults; in the Naruto-verse, on the other hand, there seems to be no clear distinction between an Adult and a Child so children that become Shinobi are actually adults. In fact, the only child that ever actually acts like a child is Konohamaru and his friends. No other children in the series actually act their age. Added to that, presumably the Shinobi Academy, while training their students to kill, will also train them to understand that they need to kill. While you can not see this type of training in Sakura, this training is evident in Naruto, Sasuke, Neji, Ino, Shikamaru, Chouji, et cetera, et cetera. Added to that, presumably all of these students have formally and consciously decided that if they need to they will kill to protect themselves and their families, friends, and village.

This is the difference between the real world and the imaginary one that Kishimoto has created. In the real world, a young child would never know enough to make a conscious decision that they can kill and can accept the consequences of that action. A child in the real world could never, or hopefully never, understand what they are doing in regards to murder or war. In the Naruto-verse, though, for whatever reason, children have the mental facilitates to process and understand the concept of War and the belief that one can fight to protect themselves or their village. So a child in this world can and will be tried as an adult because they are adults in the eyes of the law.
i sorta disagree and agree withs ome points because what is being told in the reign of the 3rd protect your loved ones etc and i havent seen skills being thaught by the academy that would mean death the only deathly skills were of kakashi and jirajia rather the parents but not so called military that "teaches you how to kill"

you know i would agree with you guys if

Danzou was hokage and every act that was wrong was strictly punished however
the 3rd and tsunade were hokage and when i see them its like they try to be a parent fluffy pantsy ass teaching that im like what the hell is he/she gonna punish him for it doenst make sense for me. I mean i would agree if tsunade told naruto to shut the hell up and he would get court martialed instead its like or i get the feeling that its not an big issue that he went away.

Also then i would like to know why oro jirajia and tsuande were away and what conditions there are.

BTW james3wk what real danger is there with sasuke going to oro

i mean seriously we you me can hype it all we want but what does sasuke know that oro doenst know? I mean oro knows way more about konoha then sasuke. ALso the fact that whether sasuke would go to him or not shinobi's will always have a risk when being in the field. Also oro getting sharingan so what he knows 1000 jutsu's then with sharingan 2000. The hokage's dont know about the secrests of the sharingan as sasuke itachi madara do, hell not even sasuke knew all of em :S.

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Sasuke technically is a traitor in the eyes of the village and labeled a rogue ninja because crossing the borders without permission is a crime whether he's wanted back by whoever that doesnt change that little fact.
based on what you say you would call anyone a traitor who goes away from a certain group.

I think people have too fast opinions about someone without taking in consideration of the acts of that person if people had better brains to understand or try to understand the motive they can understand why. (i dont mean you i mean in general)

For example what if holland has a great soccer player but he goes to germany cuz he can get better training then he gets on his max and goes to brasil to have a match against his bro and thats his entire live. but people in Holland say he is a traitor for going to germany for training i think thats retarded. Thats my opinion.

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Old 2008-02-03, 15:56   Link #76
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Whether or not sasuke joined up with enemies or didnt attack the village the fact is that its a crime to cross the borders of the village without permission.Doing so without the permission of the hokage immediately labels you a rogue ninja
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Old 2008-02-03, 16:05   Link #77
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Whether or not sasuke joined up with enemies or didnt attack the village the fact is that its a crime to cross the borders of the village without permission.Doing so without the permission of the hokage immediately labels you a rogue ninja
Thank You, someone with sense. He should be labeled as a ROUGE NINJA. He left the village to further his OWN ambitions. He - is - not - a - traitor.

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Old 2008-02-03, 16:42   Link #78
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BTW james3wk what real danger is there with sasuke going to oro

i mean seriously we you me can hype it all we want but what does sasuke know that oro doenst know? I mean oro knows way more about konoha then sasuke. ALso the fact that whether sasuke would go to him or not shinobi's will always have a risk when being in the field. Also oro getting sharingan so what he knows 1000 jutsu's then with sharingan 2000. The hokage's dont know about the secrests of the sharingan as sasuke itachi madara do, hell not even sasuke knew all of em :S.

based on what you say you would call anyone a traitor who goes away from a certain group.

I think people have too fast opinions about someone without taking in consideration of the acts of that person if people had better brains to understand or try to understand the motive they can understand.

For example what if holland has a great soccer player but he goes to germany cuz he can get better training then he gets on his max and goes to brasil to have a match against his bro and thats his entire live. but people in Holland say he is a traitor for going to germany for training i think thats retarded. Thats my opinion.
The cold hard truth of the matter is Sasuke is only seen for his Sharingan. Whether in Konoha or with Orochimaru or even with Itachi, the only thing any of these people want from him is his Sharingan. Except Naruto. Naruto never once saw him for his Sharingan. Naruto only saw Sasuke's blood line as a tool, never as a defining characteristic. I guess this is why I am against Sasuke so much. He betrayed Naruto in a similiar fashion as Itachi betrayed Sasuke (not to the same extreme but in the same vein). That is also why I call Sasuke a traitor, not because he left his village, but becuase he left Naruto...okay that sounded a little to yaoi for me, I meant it from a purely platonic viewpoint

To an extent, your Holland and Germany comparison is correct, but I doubt the ballplayer from Holland just up and left one night without telling anyone where he was going or what he was doing. No, he, with all the publicity that surrounds him, calmly considered his options and then chose the one that would beneift him and his family the most. Sasuke, left for similiar reasons as your ballplayer, but the way he left was far more troublesome than the Holland athlete. I doubt the Holland ballplayer took out some soccer bals and started kincking them at his detractors/opponents. That is more or less what Sasuke did. He violently left and what is worse he hurt his best friend in order to leave. Added to that, I doubt that the Soccer players in Germany would attempt to harvest the Hollander's body to become a better soccer player, which is what Sasuke knew Orochimaru was going to do.

If nothing else, if you do not want to look at it from a villages perspective, simply look at his going rogue from a friend's perspective. He abondoned and hurt his friend in order to leave. It is possible that Naruto could forgive him, but his actions will never be forgotten.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:12   Link #79
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He abondoned and hurt his friend in order to leave.
Why dont you look at it from his perspective. Someone killed your family and everyone in your neighborhood, and you want to avenge everyone and rebuild your once renowned clan. And, attain answers in the process. Are you going to stay somewhere where you believe you aren't getting adequate training? That is his first priority by the way. It is his purpose in the story.
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That is also why I call Sasuke a traitor, not because he left his village, but becuase he left Naruto
I laughed at this a little. Are you really serious?
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:47   Link #80
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We really should move all this Sasuke stuff into another thread... "is Sasuke stronger than Naruto" sounds more relative

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Why dont you look at it from his perspective. Someone killed your family and everyone in your neighborhood, and you want to avenge everyone and rebuild your once renowned clan. And, attain answers in the process. Are you going to stay somewhere where you believe you aren't getting adequate training? That is his first priority by the way. It is his purpose in the story.
Well that fact of the matter is is that Orochimaru was NOT Sasuke's only option for obtaining great strength... First off, there is no expiration date on his revenge, wheather he kills itachi in 3 years or 10 years, it won't make that big of a difference... 2nd of all, Kohona has a nice history of taking genius's an creating S-class level ninja... 3rd, we have no way of knowing that Sasuke's training in Kohona really was inadequate.

Most of his time with kakashi he trained as part of a team, this is poor training compared to one-on-one training... and the only time he did do one-on-one training was with Kakashi for like a few weeks before the chunin exam tournament. That's hardly enough time to judge how adequate the training is compared to Orochimaru... Hell, considering how he faired against rock Lee in the unoffical fight and Lee's comment about him during the fight with Garra, i would say that the short time he spent under Kakashi was time well spent.

I mean, think about what 3 years under Kakashi might have done for Sasuke... Sasuke's Signature moves were his lightning, his fire and his Sharigan; both of which Kakashi is more adept with... no matter how much Orochimaru might know, i woudl say Kakashi definatly knows more about the Sharigan. Really, training under Kakashi is the closest Sasuke could get to training under a uchiha. Under Kakashi Sasuke might have gone even further with his Lightning moves and more so with his Sharigan... Hell, if he had stayed with Kakashi he would have obtained a version of the MS. We have no idea what Sasuke might be doing without those Snakes, but he would likely get something else instead (though Anko could give him Snakes if he really wanted them =p... though i doubt he'd ask)... The only real loss is the lv 2 Curse seal, but we all know that they are many powerful ninjas without it... Really, we will never know how Sasuke would have turned out since it's all a "what if" scenerio

Overall, Sasuke could have very likely eventually got his revenge against Itachi without abandoning his friends and village... Orochimaru was not Sasuke's ONLY option, nor possibly his best option... Really, Oro was really only the fastest and most tempting option at the time
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