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Old 2008-02-03, 19:03   Link #81
james0246
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Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin View Post
Why dont you look at it from his perspective. Someone killed your family and everyone in your neighborhood, and you want to avenge everyone and rebuild your once renowned clan. And, attain answers in the process. Are you going to stay somewhere where you believe you aren't getting adequate training? That is his first priority by the way. It is his purpose in the story.

I laughed at this a little. Are you really serious?
His perspective matters, but what if his perspective is too skewed. There is a difference between blindly seeking revenge by constantly charging forward without thinking, and clearly thinking through your options to determine the best course of action(s) needed to defeat the man who killed your family. In reality, the best course of action for Sasuke to defeat Itachi would be to train extensively with a team to the point were together they can easily defeat S-ranked opponents. The real question is: does it really matter if Sasuke is the one to kill Itachi? In reality, if Sasuke's perspective were not so skewed, it would not matter who killed Itachi so long as he is stopped. No, there is no reason what so ever to account for Sasuke needing to explicitly kill Itachi, that is solely an opinion that he created for himself.

Added to that, as I have said in another post on another thread, Sasuke could have just as easily trained to his current level in Konoha. This is the village that created the Hokages (generally considered some of the best Kage's in the world), the Legendary Sanin (Orochimaru is still equal to Jiraiya and Tsunade even though he left the village, in fact as the recent fight with Pein has confirmed Jiraiya was probably stronger than Orochimaru), Kakashi and his father (both considered legendary and both still feared even though one of them is dead), and of course Itachi (who is probably just as strong as the time he left, but if you add the deterioration of his eyes, he is probably weaker than when he left). No, there was no need to leave in order to become stronger. In the end, Sasuke simply has an elevated opinion of himself, or he is simply an emotionally scared young man that is lashing out instead of getting help.

(There is also a whole discussion concerning vengance vs. justice that I can go into, but that might be a little boring)

As to Naruto's and Sasuke's relationship, Yeah I am serious. Sure it is a little sappy, and sadly enough maybe a little yaoi-y (not a real word, but you get my point), but when you get right down to it, Naruto is the only one who acknowledged Sasuke as a person seperate from his clan or from his Sharingan. Naruto was his brother in all but blood. So, when Sasuke willingly betrayed Naruto's trust it was similiar to Itachi betraying Sasuke and the rest of his clan.

Though, I must admit, I was only using this type of example (i.e. their relationship) as another lens of perception by which you can analyze/interpret Sasuke deffection/going-rogue. As a critic of the series, I never bought the relationship that Kishimoto said the two possessed. Until Sasuke said that Naruto was his best friend, I never knew the two had any relationship outside of the team work, let alone that they considered each other friends or in Naruto's case a brother.

---

damn, I just saw that Slayerx posted a similar response right before me. Oh well, better luck next time .
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:06   Link #82
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1. He wasn't his only option, he was his best.
2. Why should he wait "3 years" or "10 years" when he can do it in a fraction of that time?
3. I think Orochimaru gave him a bit more than snakes.
4. Sauske has still improved his sharingan a great deal and has apparently learned a great deal more techniques. I agree that kakashi would have been able to train to use his sharingan better than oro can however I believe in the bigger picture he was still better off leaving the village.
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:24   Link #83
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Orochimaru is still equal to Jiraiya and Tsunade even though he left the village, in fact as the recent fight with Pein has confirmed Jiraiya was probably stronger than Orochimaru
How has the recent fight with Pein confirmed this?

Because I remember a few events that suggest otherwise.
a. Orochimaru defeated Jiraiyah when he left the village.
b. Sarutobi was going to choose Oro to succede him; and has on more than one occasion, called him his favorite and the genius of the three.
c. During a brief 1v1 encounter with Jiriaya, Orochimaru stated "though we both have our handicaps, we can still see the difference between us" - and at that instance he had the upperhand in the battle. This was when oro had no use of his arms and jiraiya was drugged.

Last edited by ShadowAssasin; 2008-02-03 at 19:52.
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:26   Link #84
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Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin View Post
1. He wasn't his only option, he was his best.
2. Why should he wait "3 years" or "10 years" when he can do it in a fraction of that time?
3. I think Orochimaru gave him a bit more than snakes.
4. Sauske has still improved his sharingan a great deal and has apparently learned a great deal more techniques. I agree that kakashi would have been able to train to use his sharingan better than oro can however I believe in the bigger picture he was still better off leaving the village.
1. Arguable. We will never know for sure since we have no idea how good of a job Kakashi could have done... Stronger ninja =/= better teacher
2. Perhaps because it would make everyone else happier? Hell i think Sasuke himself would be better a person if he had stayed in Kohona
3. but how much more we will never fully know... of the skills he's shown, Snakes and CSlv2 are the only two thing that we know for sure Kakashi couldn't teach
4. Well, considering his target, the sharigan was likely to play the largest role in the fight and as such the stronger it is the better. Not to mention that Sasuke's chances would probably be better if he had the MS which in turns out kakashi could have given to him

Really, it's a "what if" scenerio and therefore we will never know for sure which is better as we will never know exactly how he would grow while in kohona. however, i would be willing to wager that he would not be has cold as he is and that both he and his friends would all be a lot happier, and that he still would have grown strong enough to kill Itachi... whether or not he would grow as fast is uncertain, but he still would have gotten there (if longer, i'd say no more than a 2 year delay on his revenge)... y'know, the funny thing, part of sasuke's mission is to revive his clan and he could use a does of Kohona kindness for achieving that ... cold hearted avenger doesn't really make for very good lover/husband material
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:37   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
1. Arguable. We will never know for sure since we have no idea how good of a job Kakashi could have done... Stronger ninja =/= better teacher
2. Perhaps because it would make everyone else happier? Hell i think Sasuke himself would be better a person if he had stayed in Kohona
3. but how much more we will never fully know... of the skills he's shown, Snakes and CSlv2 are the only two thing that we know for sure Kakashi couldn't teach
4. Well, considering his target, the sharigan was likely to play the largest role in the fight and as such the stronger it is the better. Not to mention that Sasuke's chances would probably be better if he had the MS which in turns out kakashi could have given to him

Really, it's a "what if" scenerio and therefore we will never know for sure which is better as we will never know exactly how he would grow while in kohona. however, i would be willing to wager that he would not be has cold as he is and that both he and his friends would all be a lot happier, and that he still would have grown strong enough to kill Itachi... whether or not he would grow as fast is uncertain, but he still would have gotten there (if longer, i'd say no more than a 2 year delay on his revenge)... y'know, the funny thing, part of sasuke's mission is to revive his clan and he could use a does of Kohona kindness for achieving that ... cold hearted avenger doesn't really make for very good lover/husband material
1. ok, we'll leave it at that, however I believe the probablility is in oro's favor.
2. well, that of course depends on what you consider a better person
3. I'd wager a significant amount more.
4. He's fighting him at the moment, i guess we'll see if he needed MS or not (I was under the impression he attained some version of it?)

You know, I don't view sasuke as "cold" as everyone is making him out to be; not much colder than he originally was anyway... He wasn't some upbeat, cheerful character to begin with. If he stayed in Kohona yes, he probably would've been more cheerful than he was; but why change him? I think the diversity in the show is better. Thats why watching Neji's team is so hilarious. haha.

I think a plot is better when a characters morality is somewhat ambiguous as opposed to the dualistic good guy vs. bad guy plot. It's much more interesting this way IMO. There is way more character depth, not to mention it is much more more practical and realistic. We all do good/evil things for many different reasons. My favorite character in a story or movie happens to be the anti-hero(suprise, suprise). The character that may perform evil acts, however they are for a good cause; and he/she is not evil at heart. (one of my favorite anti-heros is Achilles from the movie Troy)

Last edited by ShadowAssasin; 2008-02-03 at 19:51.
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:04   Link #86
james0246
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Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin View Post
How has the recent fight with Pein confirmed this?

Because I remember a few examples that suggest otherwise.
a. Orochimaru defeated Jiraiyah when he left the village.
b. Sarutobi was going to choose Oro to succede him; and has on more than one occasion, called him his favorite and the genius of the three.
c. During a brief 1v1 encounter with Jiriaya, Orochimaru stated "though we both have our handicaps, we can still see the difference between us" - and at that instance he had the upperhand in the battle. This was when oro had no use of his arms and jiraiya was drugged.
I will try to leave your other converstaion with Slayerx alone, for now, and just respond to whatever you send my way

I will admit that the Pein fight is my sole reason for claiming Jiraiya might be above Orochimaru, and that is only becuase the fight was fairly epic. Between Sage mode and the Rinnegan, the fight proved for the first time, for me at least, that the Legendary Sannin did exist. I was unimpressed with all of Orochimaru's battles and considered his end to be lackluster and boring, so of course I would latch onto the epic battle with Pein as the mark of a 'better' Sannin.

I will fully admit that my opinion is simply based around their 'final' battles and not any of the history, no matter how little we have, of the three.

Then again, maybe Tsunade will be the ultimate Sannin. I mean she does have the lineage to defeat Madara Uchiha. And this thread is supposed to be about wether Neji was right by saying a no-name-nothing can not beat lineages or people with a 'destiny'. So, that will be my prediction for a future fight: Tsunade will be able to defeat Madara becuase she is the granddaughter of the 1st Hokage (Tenzo will of course help ); Sasuke and Iatchi will have a double-KO; Naruto will defeat Pein becuase he is the son of the 4th and he is the only one that can, using Kage Bushin, coordinate a fight against six people at once.

...just kidding .
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:47   Link #87
ShadowAssasin
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
I will try to leave your other converstaion with Slayerx alone, for now, and just respond to whatever you send my way

I will admit that the Pein fight is my sole reason for claiming Jiraiya might be above Orochimaru, and that is only becuase the fight was fairly epic. Between Sage mode and the Rinnegan, the fight proved for the first time, for me at least, that the Legendary Sannin did exist. I was unimpressed with all of Orochimaru's battles and considered his end to be lackluster and boring, so of course I would latch onto the epic battle with Pein as the mark of a 'better' Sannin.

I will fully admit that my opinion is simply based around their 'final' battles and not any of the history, no matter how little we have, of the three.

Then again, maybe Tsunade will be the ultimate Sannin. I mean she does have the lineage to defeat Madara Uchiha. And this thread is supposed to be about wether Neji was right by saying a no-name-nothing can not beat lineages or people with a 'destiny'. So, that will be my prediction for a future fight: Tsunade will be able to defeat Madara becuase she is the granddaughter of the 1st Hokage (Tenzo will of course help ); Sasuke and Iatchi will have a double-KO; Naruto will defeat Pein becuase he is the son of the 4th and he is the only one that can, using Kage Bushin, coordinate a fight against six people at once.

...just kidding .
Yes, they did have a spectacular fight; however We haven't seen Orochimaru fight an opponent as powerful as pein (agreed?) that would push him to his absolute limits as Jiraiya was. If we did see one I'm pretty much certain we'd see a fight (at the very least) as good as Jiraiya vs. Pein. And, I doubt we have seen his best justu, he only used one justu(Im not sure if im using the word correctly, but when i say "justu" i mean to refer to a move that requires hand seals) during his fight with the four tails and it was in defense. For the most part, he seemed as though he was in a playful mood during the fight and stated "playtimes over" at the end. haha.



You know what they should do instead of showing us these meaningless flashbacks? Show us some flashbacks of the three sannin in their early days, (i mean an entire fight) or show us when Jiraiya fought oro when he left the village, or something to that effect.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:09   Link #88
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Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin View Post
Yes, they did have a spectacular fight; however We haven't seen Orochimaru fight an opponent as powerful as pein (agreed?) that would push him to his absolute limits as Jiraiya was. If we did see one I'm pretty much certain we'd see a fight (at the very least) as good as Jiraiya vs. Pein. And, I doubt we have seen his best justu, he only used one justu(Im not sure if im using the word correctly, but when i say "justu" i mean to refer to a move that requires hand seals) during his fight with the four tails and it was in defense. For the most part, he seemed as though he was in a playful mood during the fight and stated "playtimes over" at the end. haha.



You know what they should do instead of showing us these meaningless flashbacks? Show us some flashbacks of the three sannin in their early days, (i mean an entire fight) or show us when Jiraiya fought oro when he left the village, or something to that effect.
I can agre with that. Here is hoping Orochimaru finds someway to come back . And no I am not talking about Kabuto-maru.
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Old 2008-02-03, 22:26   Link #89
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One other thing to take note of is if Sasuke would actually had gotten taught if he stayed in Konoha.

Kakashi flat out told Sasuke to forget about his revenge and he really wasn't going to go out of his way to give Sasuke the training needed to leave the village and act out on his revenge. As a matter of fact when you look at Kakashi's team, Naruto went to Jiraiya and Sakura to Tsunade for their own training.

Secondly, what really triggered Sasuke into leaving is when the sound 4 mocked Sasuke on being a kid and playing around (wasting time). The reality is to Sasuke, Konoha wasn't the best environment to fully focus on achieving his goals, which is to be strong enough to fight kage lvl opponents as soon as possible. You only have to look at everyone else (Naruto, Sakura, Neji, etc) at the start of post timeskip to see that this judgement was right. While Sakura and Naruto did defeat Kage lvl opponents, they did it with quite a bit of help.

Quote:
Yes, they did have a spectacular fight; however We haven't seen Orochimaru fight an opponent as powerful as pein
Agreed. We have never seen Orochimaru at full strength and it was unfortunate that Kishimoto didn't give him justice for his last battle, like what he did with Jiraiya. Chances are though that Orochimaru is as strong as Jiraiya at worst.
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Old 2008-02-04, 07:56   Link #90
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One other thing to take note of is if Sasuke would actually had gotten taught if he stayed in Konoha.

Kakashi flat out told Sasuke to forget about his revenge and he really wasn't going to go out of his way to give Sasuke the training needed to leave the village and act out on his revenge. As a matter of fact when you look at Kakashi's team, Naruto went to Jiraiya and Sakura to Tsunade for their own training.
Kakashi told Sasuke to forget about the revenge because he was obsessing over it. It was beginning to turn him against his friends and making him forget that the village is supposed to take priority.

However, Kakashi didn't say anything about not continuing to train Sasuke. It had already been decided during the chuunin exams that Jiraiya would be in charge of Naruto's training and that Kakashi would be responsible for Sasuke's. I feel that Kakashi's mentorship probably would've continued after the tournament, just as Jiraiya's tutelage of Naruto.

Sasuke was going to have to face Itachi anyhow, since he is a member of Akatsuki and was after Naruto. Not to mention, he also wanted Sasuke's eyes. Therefore, Sasuke would've had the opportunity to avenge his family, but he could've done it for the right reasons, to protect his friends, like he did for Naruto at the hospital. Instead, he choose to be impatient and only wanted to get revenge for his own sake.

Quote:
The reality is to Sasuke, Konoha wasn't the best environment to fully focus on achieving his goals, which is to be strong enough to fight kage lvl opponents as soon as possible. You only have to look at everyone else (Naruto, Sakura, Neji, etc) at the start of post timeskip to see that this judgement was right. While Sakura and Naruto did defeat Kage lvl opponents, they did it with quite a bit of help.
Naruto and Sakura's fights doesn't really say anything about how Sasuke would've turned out if he hadn't left Konoha. For one thing, Naruto didn't stay in Konoha to train but traveled with Jiraiya. So any shortcomings he's had in battle wasn't because of Konoha's environment because his training was basically the equivalent of Sasuke's. Sakura stayed in Konoha, but was basically the personal pupil of Tsunade. Her focus wasn't combat training but medicine. However, considering how weak she was before, and that combat wasn't the main focus of her training, the progress she's made in fighting is very impressive.
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Old 2008-02-04, 09:11   Link #91
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Sasuke was going to have to face Itachi anyhow, since he is a member of Akatsuki and was after Naruto. Not to mention, he also wanted Sasuke's eyes. Therefore, Sasuke would've had the opportunity to avenge his family, but he could've done it for the right reasons, to protect his friends, like he did for Naruto at the hospital. Instead, he choose to be impatient and only wanted to get revenge for his own sake.
Actually, that’s missing something, Sasuke reason for leaving was not only about getting more power, it was also because the environment he was living in (and I think this is a more strong reason for his departure). The friendly and family like environment of Konoha and Team 7was making Sasuke loose focus on his goal, he was getting to a point where his bonds where beginning to get more important to him.

And on a couple of occasions people took notice of the influence he was receiving, like for example Orochimaru, who said that it was strange that Sasuke would jump out like that in a fight when he was an avenger. Or the same Itachi, that pushed him a little, showing him that he was weak because he didn’t hate enough; Or the Sound four, that said to him that in such peaceful village he would not become a real Ninja.

These sources that brainwashed him, helped him take a decision, he left more with the impression that having close bond would only get in his way on completing his vengeance.

BTW, why are we speaking about Sasuke in this thread?
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Old 2008-02-04, 10:34   Link #92
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because his training was basically the equivalent of Sasuke's.
Heh, not likely. We can be pretty certain Sasuke's training was more rigorous - if Oro's and Jiraiya's training methods are as contrasting as their personalities and philisophies(which they likely are).

Most of us seem to agree that sauske would have taken longer to reach his current level if he never left.
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Old 2008-02-04, 11:51   Link #93
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Your missing the point...
The point is that according to Neji, Destiny determines your place in the world and that you can not fight destiny; just as well destiny is often determined by bloodline.

Neji was not talking about bloodline in the sense of Byakudon, sharigan and so forth, but merely, who your parents and family are.
Neji is the Son of the branch family of the noble huuygas... as such he is destinied for more than the average ninja, but also doomed to stay beneath the main family...
Naruto however, SEEMED like he was a ordinary ninja, but when it comes down to it, his bloodline and his destiny is far greater than what Neji's was. Naruto is the son of the 4th hokage, one of the greatest ninjas of his time, and he is apparently destinied to bring about somekind of world changing ninja revolution (or possibly destory it... which, though negative, is a still great destiny)... Neji's got nothing on that... Naruto won AND he had a far greater destiny than Neji... so overall, Naruto did not at all prove Neji wrong; that fight was NOT naruto defying his destiny as a loser (as it originally looked like), but living up to his destiny of becoming one of the ninja world's greatest Heroes (which is more what it actually was)...

this is why the most recent Naruto revelations are actually a disservice to much of Naruto in Part 1... in Part 1, he seemed like a no-named loser who would become the greatest purely because he worked hard at it(fighting against the flow)... but as it turns out, even though he still had to work hard to get there, he apparently has a heritage as strong or stonger than any genius ninja and is actually destined for greatest (more like going with the flow)
LOL, the thread sure has derailed.

I agree with the above post. Naruto is not so much fighting his destiny as much as failing to live up to it. >_<

Come to think of it, the one fighting his destiny is Sasuke.
The guy is destined to kill his best friend for MS, then kill his sibling (or get killed by his sibling) in a fight to obtain EMS. Through out the whole story he has avoided walking down such a path.
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Old 2008-02-04, 14:00   Link #94
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LOL, the thread sure has derailed.

I agree with the above post. Naruto is not so much fighting his destiny as much as failing to live up to it. >_<

Come to think of it, the one fighting his destiny is Sasuke.
The guy is destined to kill his best friend for MS, then kill his sibling (or get killed by his sibling) in a fight to obtain EMS. Through out the whole story he has avoided walking down such a path.
I do not think it is Sasuke's destiny to kill his friend. Since I do not believe in destiny, I guess I can not actually argue one way or another. But, I do think it is a disservice to Sasuke to simply pigeonhole him into a specific anti-Naruto destiny.

But, If it is the destiny for any and all Uchiha is to kill their friends then their siblings, quite honestly this clan should be wiped from the Earth. I do not understand why anyone would ever desire to have this caln as part of your village. Or better yet, keep the clan but place Caged-Seals on all of them, that way you get the power without needing to worry about the insanity.

Actually, If this is Sasuke's supposed Destiny, maybe he can be the one to disprove Neji?
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Old 2008-02-08, 11:41   Link #95
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OO, you have got to love in Irony...Naruto spent episodes convincing Neji that you make your own future and that there is no destiny..all to have it be proved wrong by saying that he has a set detiny.....I love irony....xD
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Old 2008-02-08, 19:03   Link #96
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OO, you have got to love in Irony...Naruto spent episodes convincing Neji that you make your own future and that there is no destiny..all to have it be proved wrong by saying that he has a set detiny.....I love irony....xD
Can you imagine what Neji would say right after: (text is directly from anime though)
Neji:"Become Hokage, eh?"
Neji:"You can't like this"
Neji:"I can figure out alot of things.. with these eyes"
Neji:"Your talent is determined when you're born"
Neji:"In other words, everthing is predetermined at birth"

Naruto: Well i am the son of the Yondaime Hokage

He'd take his words right back.
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Old 2008-02-08, 19:15   Link #97
Quzor
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
Can you imagine what Neji would say right after: (text is directly from anime though)
Neji:"Become Hokage, eh?"
Neji:"You can't like this"
Neji:"I can figure out alot of things.. with these eyes"
Neji:"Your talent is determined when you're born"
Neji:"In other words, everthing is predetermined at birth"

Naruto: Well i am the son of the Yondaime Hokage
Neji: "I'd eat this crow, but my foot is stuck in my mouth..."
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Old 2008-11-13, 04:42   Link #98
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This thread confuses me. I thought this is about Neji's theory about destiny, what does it have to do with Sasuke?

Anyways, I tend to agree with a post I read earlier. I think Neji's destiny isn't set either. It's highly possible that his uncle would disregard tradition and opt for Neji as his successor. None of his daughters are really fit to rule as clan leader, but Neji is. So perhaps Neji might become the Hyuuga's future clan leader.
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Old 2008-11-13, 08:33   Link #99
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This thread confuses me. I thought this is about Neji's theory about destiny, what does it have to do with Sasuke?

Anyways, I tend to agree with a post I read earlier. I think Neji's destiny isn't set either. It's highly possible that his uncle would disregard tradition and opt for Neji as his successor. None of his daughters are really fit to rule as clan leader, but Neji is. So perhaps Neji might become the Hyuuga's future clan leader.
This thread confuses you so much you had to dig it up
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Old 2008-11-14, 04:43   Link #100
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This thread confuses you so much you had to dig it up

I better get my shovel then!
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