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Old 2007-09-11, 04:22   Link #101
J_Ridden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
That may or may not have anything to do with the arm getting cut; so far, I've never seen anything to the effect that Akatsuki's beam armor only protects the gold portion.
Well, while we can argue whether or not the Gundam's joints are protected by PS armor, I think in the case of Akatsuki it's obvious that the joints aren't mirror coated (otherwise they would have been golden too). But I do agree that beam blades don't have the same effect as beam projectiles and should be able to cut through the golden parts as well.
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Old 2007-09-11, 04:37   Link #102
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Originally Posted by J_Ridden View Post
Well, while we can argue whether or not the Gundam's joints are protected by PS armor, I think in the case of Akatsuki it's obvious that the joints aren't mirror coated (otherwise they would have been golden too). But I do agree that beam blades don't have the same effect as beam projectiles and should be able to cut through the golden parts as well.
Uhm... I should point out that if the Yata-No-Kagami only encompasses the Golden parts of the Akatsuki, then surely the black, grey and red parts on the Akatsuki's armor surface, especially on the chest where it is hit the most, would've been destroyed or at least damaged by beam fire when hit. As such is not the case, it can be assumed that mirror coating covers the non-golden parts as well.

I won't argue on the joints though, and whether or not they are coated.
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Last edited by LoweGear; 2007-09-11 at 05:56.
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Old 2007-09-11, 05:41   Link #103
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Do you understand the difference between a strategic weapon and a tactical one? You've already brought up two excellent uses of nuclear weapons without even employing them, why is it necessary to list more?
Those are not excellent uses, deterrence and scaring does not require usage. After all you mentioned that nuclear weapons are much more effective than mobile suits, and I'm telling you it ain't. Amuro destroyed a nuke that was fired by Zeon with his gundam.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This can be done without killing off lots of named characters as well. And in fact, the Tomino Gundam shows aren't very good at showing the "cruelties of war". There just isn't very much of an emotional edge to the deaths, so they don't have that much effect, no matter how many characters are seen dying.
Killing off named characters would deliver a more significant effect, no one would care if someone who only appeared on-screen for a minute were killed. However, if someone who joked, laughed, cried, showed emotions and interacted with the main character, the death would mean alot more to you. I wouldn't want to see the a whole episode of mourning for the death of these characters though, a few minutes of mourning would more than sufficient in anime time. Though, I have to agree that he overdid the killing in Victory.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Moreover, I'd argue that while there are anti-war messages in the older Gundam shows, there's also a certain amount of romance associated with it as well. As a result, war gets glorified by association.
When most of the protagonist's loved ones are brutally killed or killed in action? Or when most of the love stories have the worst ending possible? Let's see, Amuro liked Matilda at the start of MSG, she was killed off. Then he liked Lalah Sune, kiled her. Then he liked Sayla, found out she was Char's sister, broke up with her. In Zeta, he hooked up with Beltorchika, but she was killed in CCA. Camille was in love with Four, Four was killed. Then just when you thought he would have a happy ending with Fa, he became retarded. Judau, Ple and Ple 2 are next. Talk about messed up romance. In fact, if you are a fan of romance, I highly discourage watching Tomino's gundam series.

Speaking of which, GS and GSD has much more romance, if that's what you are implying.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Wars aren't won by killing enemy troops.
Killing enemy troops is one way to win a war. The leader would definitely surrender when he is out of manpower.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Nah, Amuro didn't really mature until Zeta.
He matured bit by bit, you would have noticed that unless you were blindfolded when watching the show. He was suffered from post-war trauma at the end of MSG, and carried it till Zeta, and that affected his character.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That would have far more to do with your lack of observation.
Yes perhaps, his character was so boring I could barely watch the show when he starts to talk.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
What do you mean by that?
Well you said that they were influenced by the original

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Sure, but fighting style doesn't have much to do with how well a mobile suit performs in combat.
It actually does, preferring to go melee or ranged, preferring to attack headon or hide in the shadows, the effectiveness of the style depends on the specs of the mobile suit. For example, you wouldn't want to go melee against a deathscythe using heavyarms would you?
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Old 2007-09-11, 07:10   Link #104
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
It's called "the right tool for the right job". Sure, a basic beam saber can cut a ship, but then again a bread knife can cut meat with a little effort, as an analogy. The Anti-ship sword was designed to cut through heavy armor and large objects faster and more efficiently.

And you're citing some non-standard examples for basic beam saber use. Strike Freedom is not the kind of mech you'd logically expect to see in the battlefield, and the Destiny was never created to fight against such a machine. The Meteor was created with slicing large things in mind, so it's more than a "basic" beam saber. And of course, Kira's skills allowed him to perform his neat disarming tricks against Destiny. But then again, not everyone in the battlefield has Kira's 1337ness (would you expect the run-of-the-mill pilot to be able to perform a sword grab against Destiny? I think not).

Destiny's Anti-Ship sword seemed useless against the other Top-Tier MS because it was not designed to do so, something that was more of Shinn's fault than Destiny's design (he did have dueling beam saberangs for the occasion, he just never used them). Against the targets against which they were designed against, like slow moving mobile armors like Destroys or ships, the Anti-Ship sword does its job does fine.
Sou desu ka. So we're simply back to Shinn's retardedness in the end.
I would've thought that the mech designer for Destiny would have at least given Destiny backups like Strike's dueling knives or basic beam sabers...but since Shinn is retarded anyway, it wouldn't have helped, ne?

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Originally Posted by brolycjw View Post
Those are not excellent uses, deterrence and scaring does not require usage. After all you mentioned that nuclear weapons are much more effective than mobile suits, and I'm telling you it ain't. Amuro destroyed a nuke that was fired by Zeon with his gundam.
And Kira can take down hundreds of them with a single HiMAT Full Burst, so what's the point? And if I remember correctly, 4Tran said that "nuclear weapons are very effective in the strategic sense, but there may be better choices for certain tactical applications". Nowadays, a state having a nuclear weapon means that the state in question knows it is safe from invasion because any hostile party wouldn't risk having his capital waxed...so in that sense, it IS a strategic usage of nuclear weapons. And if we're talking about usage in the literal sense....well, it's certainly more effective to wax an entire opposing army or enemy city with a single nuke, than to spend the lives of your own entire army in a war of attrition. As far as I remember, only the AU Gundams, and to a certain extent (Strike) Freedom, come anywhere near close to the destructive power of a nuke.

(Of course, I'm not a Gundam expert, so there may be other that I've missed...)

Quote:
When most of the protagonist's loved ones are brutally killed or killed in action? Or when most of the love stories have the worst ending possible? Let's see, Amuro liked Matilda at the start of MSG, she was killed off. Then he liked Lalah Sune, kiled her. Then he liked Sayla, found out she was Char's sister, broke up with her. In Zeta, he hooked up with Beltorchika, but she was killed in CCA. Camille was in love with Four, Four was killed. Then just when you thought he would have a happy ending with Fa, he became retarded. Judau, Ple and Ple 2 are next. Talk about messed up romance. In fact, if you are a fan of romance, I highly discourage watching Tomino's gundam series.

Speaking of which, GS and GSD has much more romance, if that's what you are implying.
I'm pretty sure 4Tran meant romance in the "glorification of war" sense, rather than the "BGR" sense...
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Old 2007-09-11, 07:54   Link #105
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Nukes are not solely Strategic or tactical weapons. They are POLITICAL weapons. They may be applied to all 3 but Political First.

Nukes are mostly used for deterrent purposes... Countries will not hesitate to use them if they have no other alternatives to prevent a full scale invasion or terrorists acts if they can aquire them.

(pls note that terrorists does not have to discharge the nukes, but may use it for political leverage)

Last edited by winter45; 2007-09-11 at 08:04. Reason: improper grammer
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Old 2007-09-11, 08:03   Link #106
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It all could have something to do with the super robot revival that has occured thanks to games like Super Robot Wars. Perhaps the powers that be behind Gundam decided to step up their power to compete with the flashy destructive power of super robots like Mazinkaizer and maintain it's share of the popular market. Heck if you even look at the SRW games now, the units that are said to be Real Robots are growing indistinguishable from Super Robots in terms of overall power, where previously they caused significantly less damage, but had higher accuracy. It's all about bringing things into alignment with other series to maintain a competitive edge I think.
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Old 2007-09-11, 08:11   Link #107
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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Well yeah, there has to be romance in Gundam, it's a given. That's a key element in nearly all fictional stories. I don't think it actually glorifies war, since a rational person won't see war as a way to find a girlfriend... but I will aree that it does take away from the overall war image Gundam usually tries to establish.
I'm more referring to the "glory" associated with the Gundam shows; basically all the cool aspects that the shows. From the cool mecha to the cool poses to the flashy combat and the l33t pilots. Sure bad stuff happens in war as well, but it tends to be done just by the bad guys. In the end, the anti-war message is still there, but it gets awfully muffled by the contradictory ones as well.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Another thing I've never really figured out is the point behind the anti-ship swords employed by Sword Strike, Sword Impulse, and Destiny.
The only thing that I can figure out is that those weapons are designed to engage targets which has critical components that a regular beam saber isn't long enough to reach. The Meteor sabers would do the same job, but those beam emitters are much larger than most mobile suits can handle, hence the Anti-Ship Swords.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Those are not excellent uses, deterrence and scaring does not require usage. After all you mentioned that nuclear weapons are much more effective than mobile suits, and I'm telling you it ain't. Amuro destroyed a nuke that was fired by Zeon with his gundam.
Ah, so you don't understand the difference between a strategic and a tactical weapon after all. I suggest you read up more on the subject before posting about this specific point.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Killing off named characters would deliver a more significant effect, no one would care if someone who only appeared on-screen for a minute were killed. However, if someone who joked, laughed, cried, showed emotions and interacted with the main character, the death would mean alot more to you. I wouldn't want to see the a whole episode of mourning for the death of these characters though, a few minutes of mourning would more than sufficient in anime time. Though, I have to agree that he overdid the killing in Victory.
Of all of the deaths in Tomino's shows, only a tiny amount had much of an effect, hence having more named characters die does little to show the "cruelties of war". There are lots of ways to achieve this effect, and it's entirely a matter of how well it is presented.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
When most of the protagonist's loved ones are brutally killed or killed in action?
When I said "romance", I don't mean it in the love sense, I mean (courtesy of Dictionary.com) "heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, romantic exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting". This has the effect of countering the anti-war message the shows also try to give out.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Killing enemy troops is one way to win a war. The leader would definitely surrender when he is out of manpower.
But that's a far cry from it being the only way, much less the most effective way to win a war. In fact, extremely few nations give up because they completely ran out of manpower.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Yes perhaps, his character was so boring I could barely watch the show when he starts to talk.
Well, that's your own fault then .

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Well you said that they were influenced by the original
That hardly amounts to plagiarism, but I agree that the non-UC Gundam shows should have pretended that the original didn't even exist. I think that their trying to appeal to audience in the same way that the older shows did is more of a hindrance in telling the story than it is a benefit.

Specifically, Turn A and Destiny would have been better if they weren't even Gundam shows at all.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
It actually does, preferring to go melee or ranged, preferring to attack headon or hide in the shadows, the effectiveness of the style depends on the specs of the mobile suit. For example, you wouldn't want to go melee against a deathscythe using heavyarms would you?
Given what I think of melee attacks, that's a silly question to ask of me .

Hmm... I answered that a little weirdly; my point is that a character's personality doesn't really have that much to do with their combat style, and that this combat style in turn doesn't have much to do a particular mobile suit's performance. On the other hand, an exceptionally good pilot can make a poor-to-middling machine perform quite well, and an excellent machine look "godly".
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Old 2007-09-11, 09:34   Link #108
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Ah, so you don't understand the difference between a strategic and a tactical weapon after all. I suggest you read up more on the subject before posting about this specific point.
Aren't the words "strategy" and "tactic" similar in meanings, I could easily paraphrase one word with another and you would get the idea.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Of all of the deaths in Tomino's shows, only a tiny amount had much of an effect, hence having more named characters die does little to show the "cruelties of war". There are lots of ways to achieve this effect, and it's entirely a matter of how well it is presented.
I beg to differ, most of them in the earlier series had a significant effect as the characters are usually close to the main characters. Dying troops and pilots are the best way to achieve the effect.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
When I said "romance", I don't mean it in the love sense, I mean (courtesy of Dictionary.com) "heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, romantic exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting". This has the effect of countering the anti-war message the shows also try to give out.
The protagonists in UC gundam series were far less glorified than those in CE. In fact, many of them resulted in a sad ending, Amuro and Char died in CCA, Camille lost his mind in Zeta. If killing off the main characters or making them retarded is glorifying them, I wonder if Hitler is being glorified as well.

The moral of the story usually comes at the end, and the process is just a method of delivering it.

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But that's a far cry from it being the only way, much less the most effective way to win a war. In fact, extremely few nations give up because they completely ran out of manpower.
Destroying enemy weapons whenever you can is necessary as a soldier. Come on, do you see the Allied soldiers shooting at the hands and legs of the Germans when they were at war? They obviously went for the kill. That is realistic.

Quote:
That hardly amounts to plagiarism, but I agree that the non-UC Gundam shows should have pretended that the original didn't even exist. I think that their trying to appeal to audience in the same way that the older shows did is more of a hindrance in telling the story than it is a benefit.

Specifically, Turn A and Destiny would have been better if they weren't even Gundam shows at all.
Yes they really should, take away all the plagiarism and let's see how good it turns out.

Turn A was done well, its story and characters were unique, even the mecha designs were special. Destiny, on the other hand... I couldn't bare to watch the story having watched Zeta.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Given what I think of melee attacks, that's a silly question to ask of me .

Hmm... I answered that a little weirdly; my point is that a character's personality doesn't really have that much to do with their combat style, and that this combat style in turn doesn't have much to do a particular mobile suit's performance. On the other hand, an exceptionally good pilot can make a poor-to-middling machine perform quite well, and an excellent machine look "godly".
I understand that an exceptionally good pilot can make a poor-to-middling machine perform well, and that is common in UC gundam series. Not quite for AU and CE though, which is why this topic was started.
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Old 2007-09-11, 09:48   Link #109
dodgethis_sg
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Originally Posted by brolycjw View Post
Aren't the words "strategy" and "tactic" similar in meanings, I could easily paraphrase one word with another and you would get the idea.
No.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strategy

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1. In military usage, a distinction is made between strategy and tactics. Strategy is the utilization, during both peace and war, of all of a nation's forces, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics deals with the use and deployment of troops in actual combat.
Perhaps one real world example would the Tactical Air Command and Strategic Air Commands of the United States Air Force up till the 1990s before the massive restructuring after the Gulf War. To sum it up quickly, TAC had most of the fighters under it's command whilst the SAC had all the bombers, aerial tankers and ballistic missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Air_Command
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Air_Command

Notice the large difference in the definition of their primary roles.
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Old 2007-09-11, 10:37   Link #110
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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Aren't the words "strategy" and "tactic" similar in meanings, I could easily paraphrase one word with another and you would get the idea.
In common parlance, the two terms are interchangeable, but in miltary terms, they're very different. dodgethis_sg did a good job in pointing out the difference, and I'd like to mention that there's an operational layer in between the two as well.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
I beg to differ, most of them in the earlier series had a significant effect as the characters are usually close to the main characters. Dying troops and pilots are the best way to achieve the effect.
This is more of a subjective effect; I've read a lot of literature and history, so Tomino's techniques don't really work for me .

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
The protagonists in UC gundam series were far less glorified than those in CE. In fact, many of them resulted in a sad ending, Amuro and Char died in CCA, Camille lost his mind in Zeta. If killing off the main characters or making them retarded is glorifying them, I wonder if Hitler is being glorified as well.

The moral of the story usually comes at the end, and the process is just a method of delivering it.
The outcome for the various characters would be part of the anti-war message (as clumsy as I think it is); but the elements that I talked about that contrubute to that overall effect of making the wars look "cool". Think of it this way: how many Gundam fans actually go on to say that wars should be avoided at all costs; that if they can't be avoided, they should be fought as humanely as possible; and that enemies should be treated with as much respect and mercy as possible? Remember that I did say that the message was mixed.

By the way, what the heck does Hitler have to do with this topic?

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Destroying enemy weapons whenever you can is necessary as a soldier. Come on, do you see the Allied soldiers shooting at the hands and legs of the Germans when they were at war? They obviously went for the kill. That is realistic.
Actually, they didn't. For the longest time, infantrymen were taught that wounding the enemy was more effective than killing him. You may want to check your facts before posting them like this . You may also want to check out this thread before posting on this point.

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Originally Posted by brolycjw
Yes they really should, take away all the plagiarism and let's see how good it turns out.
As I pointed out, it isn't plagiarism. That term has a very specific meaning, and its conditions aren't met here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brolycjw
I understand that an exceptionally good pilot can make a poor-to-middling machine perform well, and that is common in UC gundam series. Not quite for AU and CE though, which is why this topic was started.
That's where the making "an excellent machine look 'godly'" part comes in. Besides, it's hardly just the non-UC shows that are guilty of this.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth
I would've thought that the mech designer for Destiny would have at least given Destiny backups like Strike's dueling knives or basic beam sabers...but since Shinn is retarded anyway, it wouldn't have helped, ne?
Destiny does have a backup - its beam boomerangs can be used as beam sabers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Nukes are not solely Strategic or tactical weapons. They are POLITICAL weapons. They may be applied to all 3 but Political First.
Strategic weapons are automatically political in nature.
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2007-09-11 at 11:12.
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Old 2007-09-11, 11:32   Link #111
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Destiny does have a backup - its beam boomerangs can be used as beam sabers.
Yes, but like I said, Shinn is so retarded he insists on using the anti-ship sword against Kira when those would have served him better.
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Old 2007-09-11, 18:57   Link #112
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Actually, they didn't. For the longest time, infantrymen were taught that wounding the enemy was more effective than killing him. You may want to check your facts before posting them like this . You may also want to check out this thread before posting on this point.
An infantryman screaming for a medic, his mother or girlfriend in his haze of pain does more to affect his buddy's morale than a dead one. Which is also why you go after the medics first :P
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Old 2007-09-11, 20:41   Link #113
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Originally Posted by dodgethis_sg View Post
An infantryman screaming for a medic, his mother or girlfriend in his haze of pain does more to affect his buddy's morale than a dead one. Which is also why you go after the medics first :P
I wonder what's the equivalent of that in the Gundamverse.

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Old 2007-09-13, 01:08   Link #114
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I think they're taught first aid. Medics I guess are for serious injuries only.
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Old 2007-09-13, 01:40   Link #115
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Sure, we do recieve basic first aid for our basic military training but all we're taught is how to stem the flow of blood, in the case of a gunshot wound. Even after that, we have to call for a medic.
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Old 2007-09-14, 10:16   Link #116
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*calls Amuro Ray and tells him to fin funnel all the recent Godly gundams.* - dodge that!
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Old 2007-09-20, 12:16   Link #117
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Swatting grunts and battleships like flies gets boring after once or twice in a series. I'm sure the shounen super robot audience loves it but personally, i prefer fights that were more than just some superboy in a godly machine racking up kills like some Dynasty Warrior game.

Gundam MS008 (?) was much better with emphasis on tactics and machine load out.
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Old 2007-09-21, 10:01   Link #118
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Notice that action movies also rarely have emphasis on tactics and strategy.

Entertainment > Realism, for entertainment.
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Old 2007-09-21, 12:29   Link #119
Jazzrat
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Notice that action movies also rarely have emphasis on tactics and strategy.

Entertainment > Realism, for entertainment.
Realism can be entertaining... isn't that why the producers are so into (pseudo) reality shows in the last few years?

Rambo style action movies are no longer the fad now as well.
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Old 2007-09-21, 19:55   Link #120
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As far as I remember, only the AU Gundams, and to a certain extent (Strike) Freedom, come anywhere near close to the destructive power of a nuke.
Lets See. GP02 probably doesn't count since it carries nuclear missiles. X and double X 's satelite cannons are wide area burst artillery capable of taking out a colony cylinder [Might need a complete Mobile doll set to do that, but the various shots on the ground were indicative of similar capabilities] The Apsalus III's continous beam cannon was intended to take out Jaburo.

Plus Turn A / Turn X "Moonlight Butterfly" takes out civilisation in a single shot.
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