Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 AnimeSuki Forum Fansub typeset styling 101

pichu
Senior Member
Fansubber

Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by salkaman I never had a single problem finding a good dialogue font or sign font from my own collection, but I had years to accumulate it and my mom has been into digital editing and publishing for many many years, so I had a slight advantage being able to pick from over 50,000 fonts Creating your own fonts using font imaging software isn't a newb styling intro topic really but the option does exist for the bold who don't mind a lot of failure and time. As for why you'd want to do that for a dialogue font, I have no idea. Most people would generally save that kind of effort for something that needs to match signwork or for text effects that need something special that you don't have in your font collection currently. It was already stated simply that you should NOT use highly contrasting colors as they look... just freaking awful to the rest of us, not just for color-blindeded people. Light shades of the colors are fine, but once you start cross-mixing funny colors and using full shades of some of them they start mixing on the screen and looking just fart-tastic. It's to save the eyes of everyone with easily legible stuff. N Personally, that means not using those offscreen fonts, maybe using a darker shade for two people talking over each other so you know which one is interrupting.
I have over 50k fonts too, but I never found sufficient fonts for the family I want -- when you narrow down to what specific types I'm looking for.

DUDE!!! Saturation = 100% isn't high contrast. It looks horrid even if you have Red, 100% Saturation, and 50% intensity... PEOPLE READ WHAT I JUST WROTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why you should avoid using red at all costs, because of the YV12 colorspace which can misinterpret the colors!!! Get the concept straight dudes.

By PURE I MEAN SATURATION 100%... INTENSITY CAN BE 25% FOR WHAT I DON'T CARE. Need I give you a lecture on YV12 colorspace and HSV colors? I think not. You should go research before trying to flame here.
__________________
A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK

salkaman
Junior Member

Join Date: Oct 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by pichus DUDE!!! Saturation = 100% isn't high contrast. It looks horrid even if you have Red, 100% Saturation, and 50% intensity... PEOPLE READ WHAT I JUST WROTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why you should avoid using red at all costs, because of the YV12 colorspace which can misinterpret the colors!!! Get the concept straight dudes. By PURE I MEAN SATURATION 100%... INTENSITY CAN BE 25% FOR WHAT I DON'T CARE. Need I give you a lecture on YV12 colorspace and HSV colors? I think not. You should go research before trying to flame here.
First off, it is not a flaming attempt.

Secondly, it will highly contrast with the screen and its readability vs the background and its blending colorspace mumbojumbo regardless. Saturation is simply how much of that color is being used to define it which creates a big nasty-looking mess on the screen, not just in YV12 so I don't know why you're fixated on it.

Last edited by salkaman; 2007-09-05 at 00:31. Reason: Typos

pichu
Senior Member
Fansubber

Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by getfresh I don't believe he ever said saturation... He said contrast. Saturation and contrast are completely different functions. I would like it also if you would not try to prove a point with a bunch of "!". It doesn't make the point any more valid to the discussion.
I never said contrast either... I said saturation. He just replied with contrast.............. I think you've been ignoring what I wrote.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Never pick pure (100% saturation or close) red colors or orange colors in styling for "Hardsub text" in "YV12 video" due to the fact that YV12 misinterprets red colorings. Don't know any of those terms? Google it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<

^ exact quote. I hope my red colors catch your eyes again. The intensity doesn't matter in determining the purity of a color. Contrast is a combination of saturation and intensity. Hence it doesn't apply that way... YV12 handles pure blue just fine, but not so good with pure red. And hue determines it, but it's quite obvious anyways. 0 degrees = red.
__________________
A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK

 2007-09-05, 00:41 Link #25 getfresh done Fansubber     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 33 We have read what you said ever time, and it is a mute point if you follow what was said in the very few first posts. And just a FYI, watch bleach's op kara by anime-keep. There is a line that has black border solid red primary, and no blocking. But like I said, mute point as long as they follow what has been said since pretty much any color except yellow or white from primarys will be hard to read due to their ability to contrast a border in a legiable manor... This is my last post about this specific sub topic... it's a waste of my own person time, and the time of everyone reading this for information.
salkaman
Junior Member

Join Date: Oct 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by pichus I never said contrast either... I said saturation. He just replied with contrast.............. I think you've been ignoring what I wrote. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Never pick pure (100% saturation or close) red colors or orange colors in styling for "Hardsub text" in "YV12 video" due to the fact that YV12 misinterprets red colorings. Don't know any of those terms? Google it. <<<<<<<<<<<<< ^ exact quote. I hope my red colors catch your eyes again. The intensity doesn't matter in determining the purity of a color. Contrast is a combination of saturation and intensity. Hence it doesn't apply that way... YV12 handles pure blue just fine, but not so good with pure red. And hue determines it, but it's quite obvious anyways. 0 degrees = red.
Once again, we are not talking about the way YV12 handles anything, have you ever mixed colors on a scene board and seen what they look like in comparison to all the different colors on the scene? Contrasting colors, and color blending that happens while encoding makes that look just plain terrible in spots across the screen, affecting its overall readability and has nothing to do with YV12 handling the saturation of colors, which is a more in-depth scope than this topic. So, please just kindly drop it and provide something more productive?

pichu
Senior Member
Fansubber

Join Date: Jul 2004
No, I'm talking about general portrayal of colorings... Why you should avoid using it... Have you ever encoded stuff or even tried using reds in typesetting? I already tried a few things and concluded that there will be substantial amount of problems when reds are being used in YV12 footages. If you want to follow my advice, that's fine. If you're going to be stubborn, I don't need to say much until you experienced what I have said is accurate.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by salkaman Once again, we are not talking about the way YV12 handles anything, have you ever mixed colors on a scene board and seen what they look like in comparison to all the different colors on the scene? Contrasting colors, and color blending that happens while encoding makes that look just plain terrible in spots across the screen, affecting its overall readability and has nothing to do with YV12 handling the saturation of colors, which is a more in-depth scope than this topic. So, please just kindly drop it and provide something more productive?
As for styling, it has always been personal preference, and red isn't one of my preference due to those oddities occurred when YV12 delineates the reds (I'm not even talking about the visibility; i'm referring to more technical aspect). I'm an engineer, so I work around the problem. It's how I was trained to do so. That... and please don't start a flamewar. I was making a suggestion, and getfresh and you tried to flame me as such.. How can someone flame a person based on a suggestion or opinion. No wonder forums suck.
__________________
A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK

Last edited by pichu; 2007-09-05 at 01:01.

salkaman
Junior Member

Join Date: Oct 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by pichus No, I'm talking about general portrayal of colorings... Why you should avoid using it... Have you ever encoded stuff or even tried using reds in typesetting? I already tried a few things and concluded that there will be substantial amount of problems when reds are being used in YV12 footages. If you want to follow my advice, that's fine. If you're going to be stubborn, I don't need to say much until you experienced what I have said is accurate. As for styling, it has always been personal preference, and red isn't one of my preference due to those oddities. I'm an engineer, so I work around the problem. It's how I was trained to do so. That... and please don't start a flamewar. I was making a suggestion, and getfresh and you tried to flame me as such.. How can someone flame a person based on a suggestion or opinion. No wonder forums suck.
You brought up something outside the scope of the topic, and were asked to drop it a few times. And then you started in on me making assumptions as to my experience with it.

With the proper encoder settings and filters, that problem is fixable because I've used it myself in my final works for a good number of episodes and have seen it used using pure red at 100% in YV12 videos, it works when matched with the rest of the scenes it is used in properly, otherwise it can produce some funky results when wrongly used, yes. Maybe you need to try something different than you have already, and we shall progress from here. Forums only suck when things get personal.

pichu
Senior Member
Fansubber

Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by salkaman and have seen it used using pure red at 100% in YV12 videos, it works when matched with the rest of the scenes it is used in properly, otherwise it can produce some funky results when wrongly used, yes. Maybe you need to try something different than you have already, and we shall progress from here. Forums only suck when things get personal.
Yes, I agree... It only works for a few scenes which have been remodified (or the so-called filtered) in order to accommodate with your colors... That and In conclusion, pure red should be avoided in styling, as subtitles occur in every scenes of the show, not just one place. You haven't refuted my statement after like more than 10 lengthy posts, and I wasn't told to drop this topic on top of providing defiances without any backup claims, which is completely unacceptable.

To the topic:

Glossary of terms: (I think it will be appropriate to provide this)

High Contrast = High Luminosity or High Saturation with Medium-High-level Luminosity. (see below)

Pure colors = 100% saturated colors with a set Hue level defined of your 'color.'

HSL/HSV = Hue Saturation Luminance/Intensity is used for easy-to-use colors selection. Hue determines your color selection in the rainbow spectrum, Saturation determines the purity of that color, and Luminance/Intensity determines the brightness.

Faux Bold = extra BOLD weight added to the normal font by adding a border, rather than from a known bold font (like Times New Roman-Bold). A very basic way to do faux bold is to add an extra border around the font (i.e. \1c&H000000&\3c&H000000&\bord1). A more advanced way is to resize the glyph and weight it.

Faux Italics = Italics made from the default normal font (i.e. italicizing Verdana/Tahoma font), rather than from the Italics font (i.e. Arial-Italic). (i.e., \fax0.3 in vsfilter-svn) It's also known as slant, but normally it's set by a default of 15° slant.

Glyph = the character in the font.

--
And I'm off... for another few weeks.
__________________
A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK

Last edited by pichu; 2007-09-05 at 05:23.

xris
Just call me Ojisan

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: U.K. Hampshire
Quote:
 Originally Posted by pichus ...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by salkaman You brought up something outside the scope of the topic, and were asked to drop it a few times.
I would agree with you here. The thread isn't for advanced techniques and topics, it's aimed at a more basic level.

Can I ask that posts and discussion remain within the intended scope. Perhaps the thread should be closed since the purpose was to provide a statement (i.e. the opening post was intended as a guide), but I hope that it can be used to ask questions and to discussion further typesetting issues.

pichu
Senior Member
Fansubber

Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
 Originally Posted by xris I would agree with you here. The thread isn't for advanced techniques and topics, it's aimed at a more basic level. Can I ask that posts and discussion remain within the intended scope. Perhaps the thread should be closed since the purpose was to provide a statement (i.e. the opening post was intended as a guide), but I hope that it can be used to ask questions and to discussion further typesetting issues.
Well I only talked about font editing program in one of my posts to reply to one of the questions here... And, then getfresh brought salkaman along with a few posts just to bash me on that one little paragraph, although there are other stuff written in that post which was ignored essentially... What kind of reasoning is that? Besides, I already posted other aspects of styling, which they intended to flame me without treating as a viable option by saying it was repeated before (though it was never mentioned at all, which got me worked out). It's just not my day...

--- I decided to append this to this post:

Come to think of it... High contrast is basically highly distinguishable colors. All the context used here is clearly wrong. I didn't wear my glasses when I replied, so I couldn't think straight. Let me try to point out an example:

White on black is High Contrast. This is the basic sub style.

Low contrast is like white on gray. This type of colors should always be avoided using since they get blended too well, thereby allowing the text to be hard to distinguished from the scene... A few test cases are shown as shown:

Technically, it's a better idea to use high contrast colors for your styles (i.e. brighter primary colors in dark border/shadow colors). Can't argue in that.

A picture is worth a thousand words... I don't believe in describing styling with words alone...
__________________
A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK

Last edited by pichu; 2007-09-05 at 05:39.

 2007-09-05, 05:36 Link #32 getfresh done Fansubber     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 33 >.>... gets back to the point. Knowing what possible types of fonts are available is very important. Also having full font families is equally important. What do I mean by a font family? Does it mean it is serif or sans? Yes but that is only the tip of the iceberg. There is much more to consider when creating a list of usable fonts. A fully detailed set has a hierarchy like this. The following style attributes are possible: Category : The main division of classes. i.e. Language, Symbol, Picture, Scientific family : The main fontface type. i.e. sans, serif, system. Subfamily : What kind of special stylization a font has if any. i.e. normal, outline, shadow, 3d, etc... Proportion : The character sets method of spacing between characters. i.e. monospaced, proportionate. Subproportion : Is the main proportion set modified to have wider or smaller spacing. i.e. Condensed, Expanded, etc... style : The type of traditional style formatting present. i.e. bold, underlined, italics Style Variant : declares any specific formatting done for special script types. i.e. subscript, superscript, all caps, strikethrough, etc... weight : How "thick" a font is or the amount of boldness it has. Weight is normally declared in a font set with numerous weights. i.e. blahlight, blahmedium, blahheavy are weights. size : default size of a font. If you set 20 different fonts to the same pixel size you will notice they show up as different sizes, this is because all fonts have a certain pica size they are created at. Here’s an example of a classified font with many special tags. Gill Sans-3D MT Ext Condensed Med ITC.ttf That breaks down to font name - gill Family - Sans Subfamily - 3D = three dimensional Proportion - MT = Monotype Subproportion - Ext Condensed = Extra Condensed style - ITC = Italics weight - Med = Medium A font like "gill" has many types already made, will all different kinds of styling done beforehand. It is best to use this to your advantage since every override you use with textsub is going to distort the font ever so slightly and not be as smooth. Most all fonts that are worth using as a dialogue font have large multi formatted sets such as this. Remember, you are only as versatile as the tools at your disposal.
 2007-09-05, 05:46 Link #33 getfresh done Fansubber     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 33 You are sorta write and sorta not all there. Contrast as in the scale from black to white within RGB is what we were speaking of most recently. Not as in contrasting, meaning traits which set specific items apart. Iaybe I wasn't clear on this, who knows. What I was getting at is a primary is something you want at a very near the absolute white spectrum with only a hint of your color wanted. Then you use either a complimentary color or a color of the same primary scale and shift it's contrast very near absolute black contrast and use that as a border color. When your border which is very dark and primary which is very light render and mix they will acquire traits of each other naturally while maintaining a healthy "contrasting relationship".
 2007-09-05, 05:48 Link #34 pichu Senior Member Fansubber     Join Date: Jul 2004 Yeah, I hope you don't mind my corrections. ITC = International Type Corp, it's a font foundry MT = Mono Type; it's a company. MonoType basically owns ITC, so ITC is a subsidiary division of MT. They have nothing to do with font styles. ^^; (I still have to look into company acquisitions, but i think they were once two separate companies -- too lazy right now hehe) __________________ A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK
 2007-09-05, 09:59 Link #35 getfresh done Fansubber     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 33 True and True, but those are also the abbreviations for those terms. You find them a lot on newsgroup font downloads. L = Light LT = Light Lig = Light M = Medium Med = Medium H = Heavy Hig = Heavy I=Italics ITC = Italics or that one companies name he mentioned above Bk = Book MT = Monotype or that one companies name he mentioned above Bru = Brush Eng = Engraved Ext = Extended (Not extra my bad) SSi = Southern Software Ince HE = Hollow Extended Ho = Hollow D = Demi DroSha = Drop Shadow Wd = Wide Ult = Ultra B = Bold Bd = Bold Bol = Bold Th = Thin Alts = Alternate style C = Condensed Cn = Condensed Con = Condensed BT = Bitstream Rnd = Rounded Tw = Twentieth Century Scr = Script Sha = Shadow LET - Letraset Caps = All upper case characters TT= Truetype JTC = Bla = Black Reg = Regular Got= Gothic Trans = Transparent Sys = System Hand = Handwriten
 2007-09-05, 10:15 Link #36 getfresh done Fansubber     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 33 Heres a demo video of color sweeps. I'll try to play wiht it more later so it displays as near to the original as possible on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f7wMR29cbI
[darkfire]
Give them the What For!
Fansubber

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cave of Evil- Invite Only
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by getfresh Heres a demo video of color sweeps. I'll try to play wiht it more later so it displays as near to the original as possible on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f7wMR29cbI
Use Stage6 instead if you want higher quality.
__________________
"Lepers, women are Lepers" - Sheriff of Nottingham

 2007-09-06, 12:27 Link #38 getfresh done Fansubber     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 33 Thanks I'll try that. *is assuming it is a streamhost*
 2007-09-07, 01:09 Link #39 pichu Senior Member Fansubber     Join Date: Jul 2004 Why styling? You want to fit your subs into the video as much as possible. So, it might worth mentioning about fading, crossfading, and other transitions (clips, etc) in your styles. I find them as important as picking a style for your subs since you want them to blend in correctly in anime. And it takes another few pages of tutorial to show how to do crossfading properly in subs. I find most people can't do them correctly at all. (Simple way: \fad; Better way: \t with accelerators and/or colors with alpha; best way: use original video - not recommended heh) __________________ A small tool I made, and Learn how to make fansub karaoke in After-Effects: AFXKRK
 2007-09-08, 10:48 Link #40 jfs Aegisub dev     Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Age: 29 On the subject of fading, remember that VSFilter has a bug that causes fades (with \fad, \fade and iirc. also \alpha, but not \1a etc.) to "fade to grey". This does however not happen if you set alpha 2 to non-zero, ie. \2a&H01& or \2a&HFF&. __________________ Aegisub developer [ Forum | Manual | Feature requests | Bug reports | IRC ] Don't ask for: More VSFilter changes (I won't), karaoke effects, help in PM's