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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 18 34.62%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 17 32.69%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 23.08%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 7.69%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.92%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-09-03, 09:24   Link #121
Proto
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So basically, you give to StrikerS the worst score you can give to a series?
Well yeah, I failed to add in that if a series is so bad that I suffer from some kind of post-viewing trauma or something akin I won't even bother to go past episode 2, leave alone rating it. So if I rate a series it means it was good enough for me not having to pay a psychiatran after viewing it (a big plus if you ask me)and it doesn't belong to my 3 DO NOT WANT (mindless action/fanservice/comedy or some weird combination of those 3). Moreover, if it has something above 6, it means I didn't have to push myself to view it, or that I didn't watch it out of some kind of masochist impulse. Since Nanoha S didn't suffer from any of those it deserves a 7.5.

On another topic, the complaining is almost starting to amuse me. We finally have some screentime for out dear botched Lightning squad characters and we have people complaining before the actual event. Pre-emptive complaining! Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season.

Other than that, I think I will let the topic there after this post. I'm doing my best to rephrase my arguments so it doesn't become painfuly obvious that I have been repeating myself for 5 posts now, but I think I am reaching my limit

Last edited by Proto; 2007-09-03 at 10:15.
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Old 2007-09-03, 09:41   Link #122
Kha
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Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
Well yeah, I failed to add in that if a series is so bad that I suffer from some kind of post-viewing trauma or something akin I won't even bother to go past episode 2, leave alone rating it. So if I rate a series it means it was good enough for me not having to pay a psychiatran after viewing it (a big plus if you ask me)and it doesn't belong to my 3 DO NOT WANT (mindless action/fanservice/comedy or some weird combination of those 3). Moreover, if it has something above 6, it means I didn't have to push myself to view it, or that I didn't watch it out of some kind of masochist impulse. Since Nanoha S didn't suffer from any of those it deserves a 7.5.

On another topic, the complaining is almost starting to amuse me. We finally have some screentime for out dear botched Lightning squad characters and we have people complaining before the actual event. Pre-emptive complaining! Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season.

Other than that, I think I will let the topic there after this post. I'm doing my best to rephrase my arguments to the best of my capabilities so it doesn't become painfuly obvious that I have been repeating myself for 5 posts now, but I think I am reaching my limit
It's already happened in the OC thread. But we're not complaining; w're using whatever's gonna be left hanging open to make an S4.
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Old 2007-09-03, 09:53   Link #123
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Teana in this episode = awesome, she cans defeat both no.XI and no.XII at the same times. It's surprised me. Her effort increased perhaps she's thinking about Subaru in ep.22.
Agreed. Now, 7Arcs, now that we know that you can depict enemies using tactics and now you've got Teana using her brain as well. Why didn't you do that for everyone else?

Spoiler for Mach Caliber:
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:28   Link #124
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Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
On another topic, the complaining is almost starting to amuse me. We finally have some screentime for out dear botched Lightning squad characters and we have people complaining before the actual event. Pre-emptive complaining! Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season.
As expected, you aren't attached to Lightning as much as the rest of us so you would probably have less of a distaste to their shafting.

And you're making it sound as if the complains and negative remakes are uncalled for Half a season before? Maybe, but now? When things are at the end? And Teana alone have more development than the whole team minus Fate add up together?

I say we have every damn reason to be Cynical with the up-coming episode.

Lets face it, the majority of the people still feeling positive about the show are the NxF-fans, who are probably the ones that messed it up in the first place with their demands.
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:37   Link #125
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Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season.
BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:40   Link #126
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BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?
Unless this is already the most 'Epic' scenario they could think of...

And not to mention the tons of holes to fill...

...Then again, they did mess up alot this season.
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:42   Link #127
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Oh c'mon now. Don't pigeon hole people. I hate ship wars.

I'm just someone who doesn't expect much from team lightning. Call it gut instinct if you may, but years of watching shounen helps you identify sub main characters.

I watched the show for Hayate and her knights and more SRW references. I DIDN'T get everything I wanted obviously, but Subaru, Ginga and Teana were more than enough to make me happy. Nanoha being an actual character this time, helps too.
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:54   Link #128
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Oh c'mon now. Don't pigeon hole people. I hate ship wars.


It is what it is. I'm not going to bother being politically correct about it.

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I'm just someone who doesn't expect much from team lightning. Call it gut instinct if you may, but years of watching shounen helps you identify sub main characters.
Tell me, do you even like the characters in Lightning?

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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I watched the show for Hayate and her knights and more SRW references. I DIDN'T get everything I wanted obviously, but Subaru, Ginga and Teana were more than enough to make me happy. Nanoha being an actual character this time, helps too.
That's your taste, but I don't that it's too unreasonable for other characters to be officially labelled as main characters to receive some decent treatment fitting of main character.

Being so-called 'sub-main characters' is an excuse to get lazy. They are called main characters way before the start of the show. Why not just make them 'side' if they're not going to get main character treatment...
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Old 2007-09-03, 11:12   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Fabien View Post
BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?
Why would they do that? If the sink it like this, they can't reverse. If they make it succeed, they can go on.

But now that I just realized that 7Arcs actually does know how to depict inexperience (without it looking like total incompetence) and how to have it subtly cost people, maybe you have a point. Just that I don't know what they stand to gain if you are right...
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Old 2007-09-03, 11:20   Link #130
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And you're making it sound as if the complains and negative remakes are uncalled for Half a season before? Maybe, but now? When things are at the end? And Teana alone have more development than the whole team minus Fate add up together?
Oh, no. I am not contesting your right to complain. It is something we are all entitled to do, and you have every right to voice your opinion and to feel cynical about the next episode.

... however I have been seeing the same attitude for 10 episodes now so I think I have to right to feel cynical myself as well (hence why I recommended creating a thread dedicated to people bashing Nanoha direction... otherwise I think I am not wrong when I say this trend will continue up to the last episode thread.)

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Being so-called 'sub-main characters' is an excuse to get lazy. They are called main characters way before the start of the show. Why not just make them 'side' if they're not going to get main character treatment...
Hmm.. just to make sure, is your qualm with Strikers the fact that they were labeled as main characters before the series started and by the end they didn't get proper treatment, or the fact that Lighting didn't get proper screentime by itself? Because if say, a company licensed Nanoha Striker's and changed the description to something like

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Originally Posted by Hypothetical promo
"Watch Nanoha, her new adventures, her no-longer-loli self and how he became a teacher. Behold the intriging story of her students!! btw Fate got some as well but those are just cannon fodder"
would you be any happier?
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Old 2007-09-03, 11:20   Link #131
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It is what it is. I'm not going to bother being politically correct about it.
I have a problem with scapegoating

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Tell me, do you even like the characters in Lightning?
I'm not sure if this the answer you are looking for, but I like Erio and Strada. I think Caro is an optional character and the dynamics would work MUCH better if it was just between Erio and Lutecia.


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That's your taste, but I don't that it's too unreasonable for other characters to be officially labeled as main characters to receive some decent treatment fitting of main characters.
The only ones who have been labeled as main characters are Nanoha and Subaru, actually.

Quote:
Being so-called 'sub-main characters' is an excuse to get lazy. They are called main characters way before the start of the show. Why not just make them 'side' if they're not going to get main character treatment...
You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that, way. There are a sense of hierarchy. If labels matter, would you feel less hurt if they explicitly labeled Caro and Erio as as say.. a tier 2.5 character with tier 1 being highest priority, before the airing of the show?

Last edited by Key Board; 2007-09-03 at 11:46.
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Old 2007-09-03, 11:33   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Fabien View Post
BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?
If they didn't want to make another season, they don't need to purposely tank their 3rd season first. They could just decide not to make a 4th season. Now a bad 3rd season makes it less likely for a 4th to happen, but I'm pretty sure the folks at Seven Arcs don't want to be known for making bad shows, so it's not really in their interest to sink anything.
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Old 2007-09-03, 11:44   Link #133
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I'm not sure if this the answer you are looking for, but I like Erio and Strada. I think Caro is an optional character and the dynamics would work MUCH better if it was just between Erio and Lutecia.
Wait wait wait, Caro is optional? Who was the one that noticed Lutecia in the first place? Caro. Who was the one that went after her whenever she apeared? Caro.

Erio was just along for the ride, really. Even now, who is the one convincing Lutecia? Caro.

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You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that, way. There are a sense of hierarchy. Would you feel less hurt if they explicitly labeled Caro and Erio as as say.. a tier 2.5 character with tier 1 being highest priority, before the airing of the show?
I almost stopped at "You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that way"

Know why? Because that is nonsense, A's proves that you can flesh out multiple characters and make them equal.
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Old 2007-09-03, 12:48   Link #134
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I don't mind characters being unequal in development. What I do mind is that I know more about most of the Number's combat capabilities than I do of Erio's and Caro's at this point. Heck, I think Vice got more development than those two.
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Old 2007-09-03, 12:52   Link #135
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Unless this is already the most 'Epic' scenario they could think of...
They proved, with two good seasons, that they could make a decent anime.

Seeing the second half of this third season, something very bad definitely happened at Seven Arcs.

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If they didn't want to make another season, they don't need to purposely tank their 3rd season first. They could just decide not to make a 4th season.
Internal dissension?

But I suppose the most simple explanation is the most likely one: they got lazy, and seeing the success of the first two seasons, they didn't bother to do more than the barest minimum for the third season.
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Old 2007-09-03, 15:41   Link #136
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Yeah don't think complaining before the start of the episode is too big a deal.Using the rest of the series to this point I doubt anyone with solid expectations for Lightning is going to be satisfied. Really to save the Lightning group up to this point would require one amazing episode. In the end yeah if you just liked the Stars group then the season wasn't half bad at all or at least the NxF stuff should keep some happy.

Maybe the meaning of Caro as optional meant that without her Erio would've played a bigger part in the conversion of Lutecia? Really no reason to dump Caro as some had beliefs that the Caro/Erio/Lutecia grouping could've been done fine. Really with the job done in the first season and A's seems likely if they had tried they could've pulled it off. Could've just removed all of those three characters at the start without huge hit on the plot. Wonder if they were considering that and just dumped them to the side for some reason.

Just too bad. Entirely possible that the lazy reason is pretty accurate. Figure you have such successful first two seasons. Decide to up the episode count to 26 dump in a ton of new characters and it'll work out fine.
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Old 2007-09-03, 18:31   Link #137
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Hmm.. just to make sure, is your qualm with Strikers the fact that they were labeled as main characters before the series started and by the end they didn't get proper treatment, or the fact that Lighting didn't get proper screentime by itself? Because if say, a company licensed Nanoha Striker's and changed the description to something like

would you be any happier?
Oh I have bigger beefs with StrikerS than that, but the shafting of Lightning is the one which I can reasonably complain about. And the answer to your question is, both.

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I have a problem with scapegoating
It is what it is.

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The only ones who have been labeled as main characters are Nanoha and Subaru, actually.
They are the main focus, that I'll give them that. But they are not the absolute characters that requires every bit of the camera's attention. Because the other main characters (if they weren't labelled as main characters, you wouldn't be on the same status, refer to ops, eds and even character listing... As simple s it sounds, that all you need to see.) have just as interesting of a story as the two of them does.

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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that, way. There are a sense of hierarchy. If labels matter, would you feel less hurt if they explicitly labeled Caro and Erio as as say.. a tier 2.5 character with tier 1 being highest priority, before the airing of the show?
Equal in importance? Equal in focus? Maybe maybe... But I don't think it's impossible to give them reasonable treatments.

They take 2-3 episodes to flesh out Teana and Subaru's character... They give Erio and Caro a total of 3 mins of flashback which never got added upon.
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Old 2007-09-03, 19:33   Link #138
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Have any of the writers changed from Nanoha A's to StrikerS? It HAS been a couple of years now...
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Old 2007-09-03, 19:39   Link #139
Major1138
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They proved, with two good seasons, that they could make a decent anime.

Seeing the second half of this third season, something very bad definitely happened at Seven Arcs.



Internal dissension?

But I suppose the most simple explanation is the most likely one: they got lazy, and seeing the success of the first two seasons, they didn't bother to do more than the barest minimum for the third season.
To be honest, I think it's just a case where their reach exceeded their grasp - I'm not as familiar with the source material as others here, but it just seems to me like they felt like they needed to top their previous efforts and so came up with all kinds of elaborate ideas, and found that perhaps they didn't have the time required (in terms of episode count) to due them all justice. It happens all the time in all kinds of serialized entertainment.
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Old 2007-09-03, 20:00   Link #140
Proto
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Oh I have bigger beefs with StrikerS than that, but the shafting of Lightning is the one which I can reasonably complain about. And the answer to your question is, both.
At this point I think it would be wise to agree to disagree. After all we more or less agree in the only objective matter at hand: the existance of numerous flaws. We only disagree on our appreciation of them. In any case I think it would be wise to withhold final judment until the end of the series. It would not be the first time that an otherwise run-of-the-mill series was saved by a good ending.
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