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Old 2007-10-01, 13:42   Link #181
Tempest35
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I believe it was either Vol. 3 or Vol. 4 where Ilena tells Noel and Sophia that Priscilla is the new #2. It was there where we learn that Priscilla has the potential to surpass Teresa. Ilena tells us this and I think that we can all agree that aside from Clare, Irene/Ilena is the best authority on Teresa there is/was.
I'll look it up in the bookstore and post my findings unless someone beats me to it.
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Old 2007-10-01, 16:36   Link #182
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Vol04ch18 - Ilena introduces Priscilla and thinks to herself that Priscilla will soon surpass Teresa, also thinks to herself that she wouldn't normally take on Teresa but that Priscilla caused her to change her mind.

Vol04ch20 - Ilena says that Priscilla is Teresa'a worst match since she surpresses her yoma power, She then says they need to help Priscilla because she is being outmatched and at this rate is going to lose her head.

Vol04ch21 - Teresa thinks to herself that Priscilla harbors a monster within herself, and that she may have difficulty defeating her the next time they meet. Ilena, Noel, and Sophia jump into the fight, all four claymores begin releasing yoma power and go after Teresa. Teresa then takes all four out without releasing any power, with Ilena admiting that she misjudged Teresa again.


If anything, I find that Ilena wasn't very good at judging Teresa. She wouldn't have even considered fighting Teresa without Priscilla's help, and even after having seen Teresa beat them all, she still thought that they stood a chance after having seen Teresa show mercy.

Teresa may have betrayed the Organization but it was Ilena's choice to continue with the mission to hunt her down that resulted in several claymores dying and the creation of one of if not the most powerful awakened being.
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Old 2007-10-01, 22:35   Link #183
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Ilena knew Teresa the best out of all of them but Teresa hid her the true extent of her power from EVERYONE.

I don't think that Ilena was going to continue with the mission right there - She would have continued it in the future, when Priscilla had more battle experience and was more mature, but she wasn't about to race off and try and fight Teresa after just getting owned. She talked about 'having a chance' because Teresa 'uncharacteristicly' spared Priscilla's life - the life of the only Claymore with the capacity to defeat her. That's what Ilena meant by 'still having a chance'.

EDIT: ...ah, I see, Viz's version is different from 10sigh's but that's to be expected I guess. Dammit Viz...
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Last edited by Tempest35; 2007-10-02 at 21:57.
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Old 2007-10-02, 10:04   Link #184
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Hey, that last part is insightful. I totally missed that about what Ilena/Irene meant. Cool!
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Old 2007-10-02, 11:22   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
That is one of the reasons I believe that Priscilla's speed at this point was simply beyond Teresa's ability to comprehend. The first attack could be excused by being caught off guard, but the second attack she did not even try to dodge.
I don't think that is a legitimate reason to believe that Priscilla's speed was too much for Teresa to comprehend at that point. The first attack took off Teresa's arm, and the second attack took off her head didn't it? The distance between the arm and the head is only a few inches...its not difficult to believe that both attacks happened within a nanosecond of each other or so. Teresa was taken by surpise by the first attack. Is Teresa's inability to dodge the second attack really that hard to believe, given that she was already taken by surprise the first time that hard to believe?

I think we should not understimate the power of a surprise attack. Like a poster previously said, if you've taken any form of martial arts or gotten into a fight before, you would know the huge difference in your reaction time when you are pumped up during a fight, expecting an attack, as opposed to when you are walking around campus, flirting with that good looking girl from your class. It really isn't out of the question for Teresa's death just to be a product of a surprise attack.

Let's not forget that Raki was able to cut Ophelia's arm when Ophelia wasn't paying attention. The difference between Raki and Ophelia was like night and day... a normal human against a top tier warrior. Despite this huge power difference, Raki was still able to make contact. Would one say Raki's speed was too fast for Ophelia, given that he made contact with her arm? Of course not. One would logically believe that Ophelia was simply caught off guard. It is known that Raki's speed is a huge drop off from the two defenders of the church. However, if Raki was as fast as those two, Ophelia's arm may have been gone before she could have responded. If this had happened, would you say that the two defenders of the church were faster than Ophelia? Of course not. This example should show that we cannot discount the significance of the element of surprise.

If at the time Raki was swinging at an unsuspecting human rather than Ophelia, the top tier warrior, does anyone really think Raki would not have been able to cut off the human's arm without the human even being able to respond? Given this, would it be unreasonable to assume that when you have two warriors, Teresa and Priscilla, who are much closer in strength, Priscilla could most likely kill Teresa before the Teresa had a chance to respond not because Priscilla's speed was uncomprehendable, but because it was a surprise attack?

Last edited by bluelight41; 2007-10-02 at 11:43.
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Old 2007-10-02, 21:51   Link #186
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Originally Posted by bluelight41 View Post
I don't think that is a legitimate reason to believe that Priscilla's speed was too much for Teresa to comprehend at that point. The first attack took off Teresa's arm, and the second attack took off her head didn't it? The distance between the arm and the head is only a few inches...its not difficult to believe that both attacks happened within a nanosecond of each other or so. Teresa was taken by surpise by the first attack. Is Teresa's inability to dodge the second attack really that hard to believe, given that she was already taken by surprise the first time that hard to believe?
There is also the matter that Teresa was having a hard time with keeping up with Priscilla's speed JUST BEFORE Priscilla went over her limit, her inability to dodge is not what strikes me, it was her inability to even register what happened.

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I think we should not understimate the power of a surprise attack. Like a poster previously said, if you've taken any form of martial arts or gotten into a fight before, you would know the huge difference in your reaction time when you are pumped up during a fight, expecting an attack, as opposed to when you are walking around campus, flirting with that good looking girl from your class. It really isn't out of the question for Teresa's death just to be a product of a surprise attack.
Teresa was intending to kill Priscilla, which is completely different from the scenario's you mentioned, and I have taken martial arts (as some people here probably know) and Teresa's level of experience would have at least allowed her to respond, no matter how poorly, to Priscilla's surprise attack.

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Let's not forget that Raki was able to cut Ophelia's arm when Ophelia wasn't paying attention. The difference between Raki and Ophelia was like night and day... a normal human against a top tier warrior. Despite this huge power difference, Raki was still able to make contact. Would one say Raki's speed was too fast for Ophelia, given that he made contact with her arm? Of course not. One would logically believe that Ophelia was simply caught off guard. It is known that Raki's speed is a huge drop off from the two defenders of the church. However, if Raki was as fast as those two, Ophelia's arm may have been gone before she could have responded. If this had happened, would you say that the two defenders of the church were faster than Ophelia? Of course not. This example should show that we cannot discount the significance of the element of surprise.
Yet Ophelia, who was paying complete attention to Clare, and was attacked by Yoki-less Raki, was able to dodge any serious injury. While Teresa, the best #1 in history, who was about to kill Priscilla, is talented at sensing Yoki, was unable to even react to Priscilla's swing.

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If at the time Raki was swinging at an unsuspecting human rather than Ophelia, the top tier warrior, does anyone really think Raki would not have been able to cut off the human's arm without the human even being able to respond? Given this, would it be unreasonable to assume that when you have two warriors, Teresa and Priscilla, who are much closer in strength, Priscilla could most likely kill Teresa before the Teresa had a chance to respond not because Priscilla's speed was uncomprehendable, but because it was a surprise attack?
You are also ignoring the earlier instance of Teresa completely losing sight of Priscilla, not to mention that she was suddenly straining against Priscilla's strength, that just a few moments ago, she was handling with ease.
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Old 2007-10-02, 22:41   Link #187
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I think you're ignoring the fact that Teresa probably has never been injured that badly before.

She was more than likely too shocked to respond to Priscilla's insane speed at point-blank range.

No matter how experienced you are in fighting, there will be things that surprise you enough to lower your reaction time.
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Old 2007-10-03, 01:13   Link #188
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I think you're ignoring the fact that Teresa probably has never been injured that badly before.

She was more than likely too shocked to respond to Priscilla's insane speed at point-blank range.

No matter how experienced you are in fighting, there will be things that surprise you enough to lower your reaction time.
By that logic; Clare would have been too shocked to even respond to getting her legs cut off.

The simple matter is this, Teresa did not even look like she register that her hands where cut off, no pain, nothing, just confusion as to why her hands were missing.

Lowering reaction time is all well and good, but not even being able to react to pain?

Priscilla's insane speed is exactly the point, she was moving at such a speed that Teresa was not even able to recognize the fact she was injured before she died.
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Old 2007-10-03, 01:17   Link #189
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Teresa was intending to kill Priscilla, which is completely different from the scenario's you mentioned, and I have taken martial arts (as some people here probably know) and Teresa's level of experience would have at least allowed her to respond, no matter how poorly, to Priscilla's surprise attack.
Teresa was intending to kill Priscilla, execution style. That's completely different from intending to kill Priscilla during a heated battle. The battle was assumed to be over at that point, since Priscilla was begging Teresa to finish her. Your acting like Teresa was focused 100% on Priscilla at this point. Teresa believed that Priscilla would just allow her to execute her, therefore let her guard down.

What do you mean by "responding to the attack?" Do you mean a flinch, a dodge, or what? It's not always possible to respond to the attack, especially if one was caught off guard. Furthermore, the level of experience one possesses does not dictate if one can respond or not to a certain scenario. For example, I have been playing basketball for around 18 years, 12 of those being competitive organized ball. It could be said that I am very experienced in the game of basketball. When I was playing Division I basketball, opposing guards would try to steal the ball from me (obviously). However, it wouldn't be easy to steal the ball from me when both my physical and mental levels peaked in the middle of the game, during which I was fully expecting them to make a move. Even if they did manage to steal the ball from me, I would be able to physically respond to it in some way. However, if during the game my attention lapses for even a second or two, or I let my guard down, the ball that I was dribbling could be gone. I wouldn't even have a chance to respond before the ball was already out of my hands. If I was fast enough to react and register what happened, I could have done some crossover or spin, and the ball would not have been stolen, correct? With this example, It's not hard to believe that one could be completely unable to respond to a surprise attack would it?

So if we replace the basketball example with a combat example, wouldn't this assumption still be relevant? If I'm fighting an opponent with a sword, wouldn't it be hard for either of us to land a hit on each other, given that our skills were close? However, if I was convinced that the fight was over, and I was calmly walking over to my opponent to shake hands or whatever, and he sucker decapitates me, would I be able to respond? Probably not. How can I respond when the instant the sword cleaves me, I'm dead?



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Yet Ophelia, who was paying complete attention to Clare, and was attacked by Yoki-less Raki, was able to dodge any serious injury. While Teresa, the best #1 in history, who was about to kill Priscilla, is talented at sensing Yoki, was unable to even react to Priscilla's swing.
Ophelia was able to dodge any serious injury because Raki's skill level was far far inferior compared to hers. If Raki was closer in skill level to her, say anywhere around the two church defender's skill level, Ophelia's arm would probably have been gone. Also, just because Raki is Yoki-less, doesn't mean Ophelia would be unable to sense him. They still have far superior senses than humans after all. Your statement seems to imply that because Raki has no Yoki, Ophelia would be completely unable to sense his presence. This is not true. For example, in the Darkness in Paradise arc, Clare was fighting those two church defenders on the rooftop. She was focused on fighting the bigger sword wielding defender at the time, yet when the other defender threw his three daggers at Clare from behind, she deflected them all with the sword in her other hand without even having to turn around. This suggests that although those humans were Yoki-less, she had other means of sensing their presence and actions. If not, she would have gotten hit in the back by all three daggers, rather than deflected them easily. The Ophelia - Raki and Teresa - Priscilla incidents outlined above are actually quite similar, given these reasons.

Teresa and Priscilla was probably another case as well. As we know, Teresa was excellent at sensing Yoki power. Thus, the only way she would not have been warned of the attack was if Priscilla's Yoki power spiked at almost exactly the same time that she launched the attack. In other words, Priscilla elevated her attack power considerably in a second, and used that second to launch the attack. Did you ever watch DBZ? When I was younger, I remember watching Goku fight a member of Freiza's elite task force shortly after he landed on Piccolo's planet. The members of that elite task force completely discounted Goku's because they could not feel much power coming from him. However, Goku catches the first member of the force off guard when he raises his attack power tremendously and elbows the guy in the stomach all in the same second. This attack instantly kills the guy as he was caught off guard. Although I hate to use DBZ as an example, this is the example that came off the top of my head. This example does have its shortcomings. However, I believe that this example, along with the other real life example I included, should be suffice to show the power of surprise.

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There is also the matter that Teresa was having a hard time with keeping up with Priscilla's speed JUST BEFORE Priscilla went over her limit

You are also ignoring the earlier instance of Teresa completely losing sight of Priscilla, not to mention that she was suddenly straining against Priscilla's strength, that just a few moments ago, she was handling with ease.
I'm sorry, I don't remember that part of the series very well snce I've only read the whole series once, and I finished it in a total of 3 hours. I'll have to reread it again tommorow before responding to this statement.
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Old 2007-10-03, 02:01   Link #190
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post

Priscilla's insane speed is exactly the point, she was moving at such a speed that Teresa was not even able to recognize the fact she was injured before she died.
The thing is there is a time gap between the first and second attack. The second attack came after the hands dropped to the ground. For people who can fight faster than the eye can see the time gap would be significant, so i wouldn't say Priscilla have insane speed at that time.
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Old 2007-10-03, 05:45   Link #191
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The thing is there is a time gap between the first and second attack. The second attack came after the hands dropped to the ground. For people who can fight faster than the eye can see the time gap would be significant, so i wouldn't say Priscilla have insane speed at that time.
Well, I don't know about you, but I think it would be a lot weird seeing Teresa armless dodging the attacks like a cockroach (did I heard Deidera?)
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Old 2007-10-03, 07:46   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
By that logic; Clare would have been too shocked to even respond to getting her legs cut off.

The simple matter is this, Teresa did not even look like she register that her hands where cut off, no pain, nothing, just confusion as to why her hands were missing.

Lowering reaction time is all well and good, but not even being able to react to pain?

Priscilla's insane speed is exactly the point, she was moving at such a speed that Teresa was not even able to recognize the fact she was injured before she died.
You really can't compare Clare to Teresa. Clare's used to being injured all the time, especially at that point in the story.

We've never been shown that Teresa has experienced being injured like Clare has been, nor has it been implied she ever has been until Priscilla.
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Old 2007-10-03, 08:43   Link #193
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Teresa was intending to kill Priscilla, execution style. That's completely different from intending to kill Priscilla during a heated battle. The battle was assumed to be over at that point, since Priscilla was begging Teresa to finish her. Your acting like Teresa was focused 100% on Priscilla at this point. Teresa believed that Priscilla would just allow her to execute her, therefore let her guard down.
Just because Teresa was not expecting Priscilla to attack her does not mean she was not focused on Priscilla at this point, she was facing a extremely powerful Claymore who was in the process of awakening, of course she was focusing on her.

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What do you mean by "responding to the attack?" Do you mean a flinch, a dodge, or what? It's not always possible to respond to the attack, especially if one was caught off guard. Furthermore, the level of experience one possesses does not dictate if one can respond or not to a certain scenario. For example, I have been playing basketball for around 18 years, 12 of those being competitive organized ball. It could be said that I am very experienced in the game of basketball. When I was playing Division I basketball, opposing guards would try to steal the ball from me (obviously). However, it wouldn't be easy to steal the ball from me when both my physical and mental levels peaked in the middle of the game, during which I was fully expecting them to make a move. Even if they did manage to steal the ball from me, I would be able to physically respond to it in some way. However, if during the game my attention lapses for even a second or two, or I let my guard down, the ball that I was dribbling could be gone. I wouldn't even have a chance to respond before the ball was already out of my hands. If I was fast enough to react and register what happened, I could have done some crossover or spin, and the ball would not have been stolen, correct? With this example, It's not hard to believe that one could be completely unable to respond to a surprise attack would it?
You would however, notice the ball was gone at least. Teresa mind was not wandering out in lala land at that time, she was looking at Priscilla directly, sword in hand, yet Priscilla, with Teresa directly facing her, was able to cut off her hands without Teresa even realizing what was going on.

Quote:
So if we replace the basketball example with a combat example, wouldn't this assumption still be relevant? If I'm fighting an opponent with a sword, wouldn't it be hard for either of us to land a hit on each other, given that our skills were close? However, if I was convinced that the fight was over, and I was calmly walking over to my opponent to shake hands or whatever, and he sucker decapitates me, would I be able to respond? Probably not. How can I respond when the instant the sword cleaves me, I'm dead?
You would at least respond if he sucker cuts off your hands first, and then goes for the death blow, at least if you have any ability to feel pain. The issue is that Teresa was attacked twice, and did not exhibit a significant response to either attack.

Quote:
Ophelia was able to dodge any serious injury because Raki's skill level was far far inferior compared to hers. If Raki was closer in skill level to her, say anywhere around the two church defender's skill level, Ophelia's arm would probably have been gone. Also, just because Raki is Yoki-less, doesn't mean Ophelia would be unable to sense him. They still have far superior senses than humans after all. Your statement seems to imply that because Raki has no Yoki, Ophelia would be completely unable to sense his presence. This is not true. For example, in the Darkness in Paradise arc, Clare was fighting those two church defenders on the rooftop. She was focused on fighting the bigger sword wielding defender at the time, yet when the other defender threw his three daggers at Clare from behind, she deflected them all with the sword in her other hand without even having to turn around. This suggests that although those humans were Yoki-less, she had other means of sensing their presence and actions. If not, she would have gotten hit in the back by all three daggers, rather than deflected them easily. The Ophelia - Raki and Teresa - Priscilla incidents outlined above are actually quite similar, given these reasons.
Going by your theory of sneak attack, it would not have mattered how skilled Raki was, he was human, and thus did not stand a chance of significantly injuring Ophelia. When Clare was fighting the two Knights, she was focused on fighting THEM, just because she was facing one of them does not mean she was not aware of the other. So being Yoki-less is quite the advantage.

Quote:
Teresa and Priscilla was probably another case as well. As we know, Teresa was excellent at sensing Yoki power. Thus, the only way she would not have been warned of the attack was if Priscilla's Yoki power spiked at almost exactly the same time that she launched the attack. In other words, Priscilla elevated her attack power considerably in a second, and used that second to launch the attack. Did you ever watch DBZ? When I was younger, I remember watching Goku fight a member of Freiza's elite task force shortly after he landed on Piccolo's planet. The members of that elite task force completely discounted Goku's because they could not feel much power coming from him. However, Goku catches the first member of the force off guard when he raises his attack power tremendously and elbows the guy in the stomach all in the same second. This attack instantly kills the guy as he was caught off guard. Although I hate to use DBZ as an example, this is the example that came off the top of my head. This example does have its shortcomings. However, I believe that this example, along with the other real life example I included, should be suffice to show the power of surprise.
The problem with that line of thinking is that Priscilla was already throwing out a huge amoung of Yoki, and any Flare in it at all would have been a noticable shift to Teresa's yoki-radar. The guy Goku nailed also at least realized he was injured before he passed out.


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I'm sorry, I don't remember that part of the series very well snce I've only read the whole series once, and I finished it in a total of 3 hours. I'll have to reread it again tommorow before responding to this statement.
I'll forgive you this time

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The thing is there is a time gap between the first and second attack. The second attack came after the hands dropped to the ground. For people who can fight faster than the eye can see the time gap would be significant, so i wouldn't say Priscilla have insane speed at that time.
There was indeed a delay between the attacks, but that just shows that Teresa really did not have a clue that she had just lost her arms, heck she was not even bleeding yet (which is odd.) Priscilla cuts of Teresa's hands, Teresa's hands fly over near Clare, and then Priscilla attacks again, killing Teresa. That is alot of time for someone not to react to pain. We could put it off as manga time, but I dislike doing that.

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You really can't compare Clare to Teresa. Clare's used to being injured all the time, especially at that point in the story.

We've never been shown that Teresa has experienced being injured like Clare has been, nor has it been implied she ever has been until Priscilla.
Teresa was knocked around quite a bit by Rosemary (who probably hits a great deal harder then most things Clare has fought) before killing her. So I doubt pain tolerance or suprise at getting injured is the issue here. Although having a limb cut of is significantly different, Teresa could have at least cried out in pain if she had realized what happened.
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Old 2007-10-03, 11:20   Link #194
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The simple matter is this, Teresa did not even look like she register that her hands where cut off, no pain, nothing, just confusion as to why her hands were missing.
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Originally Posted by cors8
You really can't compare Clare to Teresa. Clare's used to being injured all the time, especially at that point in the story.
Actually, amputed members are not that painful (at least in the act of amputation). The reason is that most cells responsible for the pain are all cut among the member. It mean Teresa sama didn't had time to feel the pain. She was probably just shocked by Priscila's act, not believing in what just happened, just like when something very bad happen to us, we need some time to assimilate it.
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Old 2007-10-03, 16:25   Link #195
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Actually, amputed members are not that painful (at least in the act of amputation). The reason is that most cells responsible for the pain are all cut among the member. It mean Teresa sama didn't had time to feel the pain. She was probably just shocked by Priscila's act, not believing in what just happened, just like when something very bad happen to us, we need some time to assimilate it.
I can't say I am qualified to respond to the accuracy of that, but it is basically like when you get burned by something so hot you can't even feel the burn right?

I still believe a combat hardened warrior like Teresa, even with her guard dropped, would have responded in some way to being injured.

The fact her hands even had time to hit the ground before the follow up attack came. If anything Teresa's shock is proof of how fast Priscilla was at that moment, even with her guard let down, I don't think Teresa saw the attack.
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Old 2007-10-03, 19:37   Link #196
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I can't say I am qualified to respond to the accuracy of that, but it is basically like when you get burned by something so hot you can't even feel the burn right?
Only in 3rd degree burns (when the cells die and become black). 2nd degree (when bubbles are formed in skin) hurt like in burning in hell.

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I still believe a combat hardened warrior like Teresa, even with her guard dropped, would have responded in some way to being injured.

The fact her hands even had time to hit the ground before the follow up attack came. If anything Teresa's shock is proof of how fast Priscilla was at that moment, even with her guard let down, I don't think Teresa saw the attack.
Me neither. Both attacks where too fast. But she did had a little time to think before the 2nd attack.
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Old 2007-10-03, 21:24   Link #197
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Simple solution to all the hickhack about why Teresa could not counter Priscillas attack and react fast enough: Yagi-san had to kill her somehow and probably didnt give it much thought of how to implement it coherently with Teresa's and Priscilla's specs in mind.

Interestingly enough, in the anime Teresa explicitly states that she could not read Priscillas Yoki propably because it was all over the place and overflowing. Seeing that she reduced her own Yoki to execute a her would propably affect her Yoki reading abilities too (she was able to effectively block and even injure Priscilla's attack after she increased her own Yoki to 10% output).

Teresa had to die for story and shock & awe reasons and thats the end of it.
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Old 2007-10-03, 22:54   Link #198
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But that is a boring answer, we must debate it till the end of time!!!!!

I don't think Teresa increasing her own Yoki improves her Yoki-reading skills, at least judging by how Clare had to learn Yoki-sensing. The manga also stated that Teresa was having a hard time reading Priscilla's attacks.
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Old 2007-10-04, 01:38   Link #199
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I think it would have been alot better if Priscilla's plan to kill Teresa involved attacking Clare, there would be many more possibilities of Teresa getting killed without the whole was she really outclassed or caught off guard outcome.
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Old 2007-10-04, 11:51   Link #200
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I think the author is leaving it purposefully vague, and that would also significantly change Priscilla's character.
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