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Old 2007-09-07, 16:43   Link #101
Hamstadini
Raki/Claire fan
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Southern California
Good thing too, or else we'd never see the end of the production of Lolipairing Doujins.
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Old 2007-09-07, 16:46   Link #102
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Hamstadini View Post
Good thing too, or else we'd never see the end of the production of Lolipairing Doujins.
True dat, I am still suprised their aren't more Claymore doujin out there though.

(Fantisizes about Miria)

mmmmm, oh wait, off subject.

Err yeah, um Priscilla as she is now is not truly the same Priscilla responsible for Teresa's death, she has reverated to her childhood, thus making the task of killing her the same thing as killing a innocent (albiet monsterously powerful and dangerous) child.

Edit; Hamstadini, I just looked at your album, and I must say, LOL!
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Old 2007-09-07, 16:55   Link #103
Hamstadini
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I bagged an LOL! *Dances* ^^

Just to stay on topic, remember the time Claire nearly sliced Raki in half due to her body going out of control? Why isn't the same possibility considered for Priscilla?
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Old 2007-09-07, 16:57   Link #104
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Hamstadini View Post
I bagged an LOL! *Dances* ^^

Just to stay on topic, remember the time Claire nearly sliced Raki in half due to her body going out of control? Why isn't the same possibility considered for Priscilla?
I must say I think this said it best;

Spoiler for The reason:
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:03   Link #105
hollywoodlou
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Originally Posted by Hamstadini View Post
Translation: WE WANTS BLOOD! *Grabs nearest virgin sacrifice and rips out a big chunk of her jugular vein with his teeth*
Translation: let crimes be left unpunished. BOy, we are living in a fantasy world, aren't we?

Quote:
Edit:
To respond to hollywoodlou;

Priscilla is actually living quite the painful life right now, she is suffering in the fact she is mentally a child searching for a family she will never find, and now she is being used as a tool by one of the most powerful creatures around, despite the fact she herself is much stronger.

Priscilla is now basically a child that has no sense of direction, no sense of purpose other then to find her lost family.

Her living is actually much more painful then anything Clare could probably do to her.
and I am not too sure if Teresa would approve of Clare's quest now either.
I remember this...pleading "insanity" to escape the gas chamber, right? You say she's "suffering" because she's lost her family? Now who's bright idea was that she go berserk in the first place hunting down Teresa because she WAS ORIGINALLY spared by Teresa, right after Irene told her not to?

And who's to say that in the future, she'll remember everything, be conscious of who she is (which is a monster/killer) and snuff out Isley? You are thinking this "amnesia" of hers is permanent, it;s NOT. It'll come back soon...
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:09   Link #106
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by hollywoodlou View Post

Translation: let crimes be left unpunished. BOy, we are living in a fantasy world, aren't we?
Translation: I just wanted to do this because everyone else seemed to be doing it.

No really, I did.

Quote:
I remember this...pleading "insanity" to escape the gas chamber, right? You say she's "suffering" because she's lost her family? Now who's bright idea was that she go berserk in the first place hunting down Teresa because she WAS ORIGINALLY spared by Teresa, right after Irene told her not to?
So I suppose we should kill every crazy person we come across now? That alot of people. World might be a safer place, but that doesn't make it any more right.

Quote:
And who's to say that in the future, she'll remember everything, be conscious of who she is (which is a monster/killer) and snuff out Isley? You are thinking this "amnesia" of hers is permanent, it;s NOT. It'll come back soon...
There is a whole lot of assumption in that small paragraph, whose to say her getting her memory back would be a bad thing? She might show some true remorse then, Priscilla was never mentally stable, so logic is ftl when trying to discern her actions.
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Last edited by Fenrir_valindri; 2007-09-07 at 17:11. Reason: I love fixing typos
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:10   Link #107
Defiled one
Priscilla`s inner voice
 
 
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In response. I see Priscilla as not human, normal laws do not apply but rather natureīs laws.
I do not feel hatred for an being that tries to survive, nevertheless I would defend myself from a predator to the point of killing it or trying to make it go away.
Priscilla death was never questioned unless when people mentioned "tragedy" ending.
Second, what solution do seek? Priscilla is not the only one that eats so it doesnīt really matter, the killings will continue...just that there will be a lesser mouth the feed.
I really doubt going on a Crusade againsīt awakened and youmas would do any good considering how MUCH STRONGER THEY ARE....The cost of men would be enourmous and the villages would be defenseless a total disaster...no possible way to defend ourself, Plus the order doesnīt really care if we die. Claymores only care if they get paid.
This is a world of, everyone for himself, means more than justice. Humans are not at the top of the food chain nor they will ever be. You cannot fight it..the result ended with more stronger creatures such as awakened and Abyssal and Priscilla.
Nothing will change.
Besides.... If you want to kill priscilla, use your brains not your heart. Or you might end as her.

But please donīsay she deserves to die just because she killed Teresa. Consider her a threat to your survival instead.
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:15   Link #108
Fenrir_valindri
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@Defiled One

bravo, rather well put, and I agree on almost all those points.
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:29   Link #109
Tempest35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Are Clare's motivations that important to determining if her quest is a good one? Does the lack of purity in her motives make Priscilla's continued existence any less of a blight?
I believe that 'motive' makes the difference between 'murder' and 'execution'. Sure, there's no official court of law to say 'yea' or 'nay' on it but Priscilla deserves an execution - not a murder. She ends up dead either way but the way it is arrived at is totally different and that makes the difference. If that wasn't the case, then every executioner in history is a murderer.

Quote:
Clare's shown herself consistently willing to go out of her way to save people, so I don't buy the claims that her quest for vengeance dehumanized her. And no, I don't attribute to Raki the credit for her compassionate nature. The only thing he did was recognize it, but it was there before he came around, and after he left. So what if Clare's moved by vengeance? Priscilla deserves to die, and Clare isn't turning into the monster she's fighting (though there have been a few close calls). That's what matters.
She isn't turning into the monster she's fighting? Did you not see Ep 23? Forget Raki's expression - Miria's expression, Jean's expression, the worried sounds coming from everyone? She was turning into a vengance demon trying to kill Rigald right there for Jean and Flora. 'What ifs' have merit in this situation as well - what if she Awakened? Then Miria and the others would have to deal with a fresh Awakened who just defeated their strongest opponent. Result = so bad I could cry.
Vengance has a nasty habit of consuming many that wield it, especially in the name of correcting a wrong. There may be alternatives but I doubt Clare's thinking of them right now.

Quote:
Justice has many purposes. And what alternative do you propose?
-and-
Not when it's killing us, let's not. Is that your favorite course of action? It's nature at work, let's let Priscilla eat our guts!?
Nature didn't create Awakened beings - Man did. The Natural Order of animals screams that Youma are not natural yet it is in their nature or predisposition to prey upon humans. I'm sure everyone knows that since Youma eat humans and that Claymores are humans fused with Youma bits, it's only 'natural' that an Awakened one will eat humans. The irony would be picture perfect if only the Awakened beings went after the ones who begat them instead of the populace.

---Can they change? I'm pretty sure they can't especially considering that Priscilla was weeping even while she hungrily ate the intestines. She was freaking starving herself but she can't override her new nature, no matter how hard she may try to resist it.---

The only 'justice' about killing Priscilla that I can see people wanting so far is for the 'wrongful death' of Teresa. That don't fly far.
It is not in the name of justice that Priscilla should be struck down but rather survival. To ensure the survival of innocent people who have families and such who are trying to life as best they can in a world already filled with man-eaters, both human AND youma. In the face of that, yes Clare's vengance thing for Teresa is pretty damn petty.

EDIT: @ Fenrir - Hey anime and manga are both official... The 'expressions' stand. As for Priscilla...meh, I'll concede on that one...I'll separate it but that's it...*grumble grumble*
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Last edited by Tempest35; 2007-09-07 at 17:42.
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:34   Link #110
Fenrir_valindri
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@Tempest35

Danger tempest! You are entering anime-only events zone!

If you are going to use examples, use the ones from the manga
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:35   Link #111
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by Hamstadini View Post
@ Anh Minh: I'm not a loli lover. I'd rather have legal, thanks... and you have done nothing to disprove my point that people who want Priscilla dead are violent bloodthirsty berserkers.
Yes, just as you've done nothing to prove it.
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Old 2007-09-07, 17:57   Link #112
hollywoodlou
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Quote:
So I suppose we should kill every crazy person we come across now? That alot of people. World might be a safer place, but that doesn't make it any more right.
Why dont you actually re=phrase it as "crazy people who KILLED other people"?

Quote:
There is a whole lot of assumption in that small paragraph, whose to say her getting her memory back would be a bad thing? She might show some true remorse then, Priscilla was never mentally stable, so logic is ftl when trying to discern her actions.
Hmmm, she seemed logical when she was trying to explain her position that if Teresa broke the laws of the ORg by killing a HUMAN being, then TERESA should be KILLED.

Does that sound like a crazy person to you?
*****

I mean if we are in a "forgiving" mood, Clare should've forgiven Rigald for killing the Captains,
Deneve should've forgiven the yoma for killing her sister
Ophelia shouldb've forgiven Priscilla for killing her brother
etc...
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:04   Link #113
Defiled one
Priscilla`s inner voice
 
 
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You know....This is actually interesting and satirical. Anh-Minh actually gave me the idea in his prior posts.

If something like Priscilla, for example, appeared in our world. Our 21 century world with no Claymores and youmas....And the masses saw her live from TV ...Not a pretty sight seeing her eat.

Do you really think that any government would want to kill her? No, they wouldnīt even touch her considering how much power hungry they would be...Just like the Org of Claymores. A living biological weapon that does not age, immune to sickness and poison, regeneration beyond anything ever recorded.

They wouldnīt put her near a court even if she talked and proved her intelligence.
The masses cries would fall in deaf ears, kill her, lock her, stop trying to reproduce it...etc.

Pure greed... to the point of starting wars. Thatīs what the Org wants

Itīs a what if scenario that we knew would happen.
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:04   Link #114
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
So I suppose we should kill every crazy person we come across now? That alot of people. World might be a safer place, but that doesn't make it any more right.
How about killing every crazy who also happens to be a mass murderer with a three digit body count or more?

Or, you know, at least hold them in a secure facility in such a way that they can't kill any more... but that's not an option for Priscilla.

Quote:
There is a whole lot of assumption in that small paragraph, whose to say her getting her memory back would be a bad thing? She might show some true remorse then, Priscilla was never mentally stable, so logic is ftl when trying to discern her actions.
Oh, remorse. Yeah, that'd be helpful. It would bring all her meals back to life. And change her physiology back to one that doesn't need human flesh.

Or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiled one View Post
In response. I see Priscilla as not human, normal laws do not apply but rather natureīs laws.
Nature's laws say that if you throw an apple in the air it'll fall back down (unless your throwing arm is ridiculously strong, I guess...). They don't say anything about whether Priscilla should be hunted down or not.

Quote:
I do not feel hatred for an being that tries to survive, nevertheless I would defend myself from a predator to the point of killing it or trying to make it go away.
On that point, we're in agreement.

Quote:
Priscilla death was never questioned unless when people mentioned "tragedy" ending.
I just don't see anything tragic about Priscilla's death. Her life, possibly, but her death? I totally fail to care about her redemption or immaterial stuff like that.

Quote:
Second, what solution do seek? Priscilla is not the only one that eats so it doesnīt really matter, the killings will continue...just that there will be a lesser mouth the feed.
You can't stop all the murderers, so let's not stop any. You can't cure all the diseases, so let's cure none. Yeah, that makes sense.


Quote:
I really doubt going on a Crusade againsīt awakened and youmas would do any good considering how MUCH STRONGER THEY ARE....The cost of men would be enourmous and the villages would be defenseless a total disaster...no possible way to defend ourself, Plus the order doesnīt really care if we die.
Killing Priscilla isn't a long term solution to the youma problem, that's true. So? Why should it be?


Quote:
Claymores only care if they get paid.
No, the organisation does. From what we've seen, the Claymores are rather indifferent to money.

Quote:
This is a world of, everyone for himself, means more than justice. Humans are not at the top of the food chain nor they will ever be.
Probably not, though good microscopes and high explosives might change the balance of powers. Of course, I doubt the manga will go that route.

Quote:
You cannot fight it..the result ended with more stronger creatures such as awakened and Abyssal and Priscilla.
Nothing will change.
Besides.... If you want to kill priscilla, use your brains not your heart. Or you might end as her.
Who said not to use our brains? You're the bleeding heart looking for reasons to pity her. Me, I don't particularly care. I just want her dead.

Quote:
But please donīsay she deserves to die just because she killed Teresa. Consider her a threat to your survival instead.
It's both. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And, as I said, I really don't see how motives matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
I believe that 'motive' makes the difference between 'murder' and 'execution'. Sure, there's no official court of law to say 'yea' or 'nay' on it but Priscilla deserves an execution - not a murder. She ends up dead either way but the way it is arrived at is totally different and that makes the difference. If that wasn't the case, then every executioner in history is a murderer.
OK, we've hit a philosophical divide between us. To me, if someone deserves to die, I don't care about the reasons people volunteer to wield the ax. Be it for money, vengeance, or voices in their heads, it's all good.

Of course, their motivations say something about their characters. That will mean different levels of trustworthiness and likability. But it doesn't matter when judging their actions.


Quote:
She isn't turning into the monster she's fighting? Did you not see Ep 23?
Yeah, as I said, a few close calls.

Quote:
Forget Raki's expression - Miria's expression, Jean's expression, the worried sounds coming from everyone? She was turning into a vengance demon trying to kill Rigald right there for Jean and Flora.
And, incidentally, to save Miria's life.

And people worried, not because she was trying to avenge her friends, but because she was Awakening. It had nothing to do with the morals of vengeance, and everything with worrying about her friend or foe status.


Quote:
'What ifs' have merit in this situation as well - what if she Awakened? Then Miria and the others would have to deal with a fresh Awakened who just defeated their strongest opponent. Result = so bad I could cry.
And without her partial awakening, Miria would have died, followed everyone else.

Well, with her plan, I suppose there would have been a few survivors. Whatever.

Quote:
Vengance has a nasty habit of consuming many that wield it, especially in the name of correcting a wrong. There may be alternatives but I doubt Clare's thinking of them right now.
As I said, it wasn't just about vengeance.

And Clare isn't, for example, killing innocents right and left, and claiming it's alright, "because it's for the sake of killing Priscilla". So her vengeance can't be consuming her that badly.

Quote:
The only 'justice' about killing Priscilla that I can see people wanting so far is for the 'wrongful death' of Teresa. That don't fly far.
It is not in the name of justice that Priscilla should be struck down but rather survival. To ensure the survival of innocent people who have families and such who are trying to life as best they can in a world already filled with man-eaters, both human AND youma. In the face of that, yes Clare's vengance thing for Teresa is pretty damn petty.
I agree that the main reason Priscilla should die is to protect all her future potential meals. I just fail to see why it should matter what Clare wants to get out of Pris' death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiled one View Post
Itīs a what if scenario that we knew would happen.
We don't know anything of the sort.
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:10   Link #115
Guido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiled one View Post
In response. I see Priscilla as not human, normal laws do not apply but rather natureīs laws.
I do not feel hatred for an being that tries to survive, nevertheless I would defend myself from a predator to the point of killing it or trying to make it go away.
Priscilla death was never questioned unless when people mentioned "tragedy" ending.
Second, what solution do seek? Priscilla is not the only one that eats so it doesnīt really matter, the killings will continue...just that there will be a lesser mouth the feed.
I really doubt going on a Crusade againsīt awakened and youmas would do any good considering how MUCH STRONGER THEY ARE....The cost of men would be enourmous and the villages would be defenseless a total disaster...no possible way to defend ourself, Plus the order doesnīt really care if we die. Claymores only care if they get paid.
This is a world of, everyone for himself, means more than justice. Humans are not at the top of the food chain nor they will ever be. You cannot fight it..the result ended with more stronger creatures such as awakened and Abyssal and Priscilla.
Nothing will change.
Besides.... If you want to kill priscilla, use your brains not your heart. Or you might end as her.

But please donīsay she deserves to dies just becuase she killed Teresa. Cnsider her a threath to your survival instead.

Defiled One I really like and have little to no disputes to argue with your theory about Priscilla at the following link below:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...0&postcount=21

You made an interesting point that is growing more sense on me and has made me wonder the nature of Priscilla's action that brought Teresa's death.

Was it for revenge?; maybe a last desperate struggle for survival?; how about fear?; or just plainly put hatred?

I think it was a complex and ambiguous amalgam of all the choices above.

What makes Priscilla so dangerous and possibly the apex predator, that is the being at the top of the food chain, is not only her near-infinite storage of Youki and unmeasurable hunger, but the fact that her mentality upon awakening became a messed-up amalgam between a toddler child and a Yoma due to massive post traumatic stress disorder.

Ok. Priscilla's not the single case of an orphaned child who has been sole survivor of a Yoma's slaughter. The other orphaned girls who were turned into claymores unwillingly have as well their own traumatic complexes and issues.

But Priscilla's case of surviving a yoma attack is both an exceptional and unbelievable one. If anyone recalled what the yoma of episode one, which posed as Raki's brother, told was that there was no way ever for a human to win against the yoma. They are the superior predators to humans and can do nothing against them.

Yet, the pre-awakened Priscilla recounted that she successfully managed to sneaked behind the yoma which posed as her father and chopped off his head.

It could be possible to sneak behind a yoma with timing and keeping your movements sharp and silent to the max, but how on earth a little human girl with scare to zero strength (from the point of view of an adult human) was a able to decapitate a yoma with whatever small, butchering tool was at her disposal?

You ask me, Priscilla already had a monster within her shortly before she became a Claymore. That monster was borned the moment she killed the yoma which disguised as her father. The yoma viciously betrayed and shattered her innocence and the gentle image she had for her father.

I have reasons now to suspect that the Org right away picked up Priscilla once finding out about the miraculous outcome of her survival. They could likely have sensed that chibi Priscilla had something within her.

If you ask me, I believe that the reason why chibi Priscilla killed that yoma was because she snapped by brute and raw survival instinct. Under the extreme horror and insane tragedy her mind exploded beyond the limits.

The potential that both Irene and Teresa felt within Priscilla likely to me is....
Spoiler:


The Org did not intend for Priscilla to become their next No. 1 at that time, they wanted Priscilla to become their new No. 1
They tested Priscilla to measure and check if she would live up to their standards by assigning her with the hunting team to kill Teresa. What a perfect and favorable scenario to gauge her hidden potential but by piting her against Teresa, the apex claymore.

Too bad that both the Org and an astonished Teresa never foresaw the truth about Priscilla's brute instinct for self-survival.

The result of her Awakening is a body that reacts on instinctive self-preservation. This principle is the same, for example, as in Gaara's sand shield.

Let me explain.
I believe that since Priscilla, even for Awakened standards, is just a mental child her body moves against her will when her body cells feel in unison an imminent danger to her existence.
Spoiler:


This same brute instinct of self-preservation provokes on her body to create, build-up, and release an infinite supply of youki that never runs out and allows for her instantaneous regeneration and inexhaustible stamina.

Put in simple matters Awakened Priscilla plainly refuses to die. How her body turned out is not the result of releasing her unnatural powers but of a very human natural instinct to survive under an evil stress and fear of death by a monster.
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:16   Link #116
Defiled one
Priscilla`s inner voice
 
 
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OH! You just donīt give up wonīt you. -_- Nom Nom Nom

First, there is a difference between curing sickness and hunting criminals...is that it tends to decrease while Youmas just increase in number not to mention awakened.
Second, if I am the pity heart why do I even agree with her death?

The others are aceptable Anh-Minh
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:37   Link #117
hollywoodlou
from Hollywood CA
 
 
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Anh Minh already took the words out of my mouth.

Priscilla will get what she deserved in the end and if u ask the majority of the posters here...what's more credible: Clare forgiving Priscilla OR cutting her head off in the end? Priscilla's annihilation is the sole objective of the series.
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:44   Link #118
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Even if she's forgiven, even if she's remorsefull, Priscilla will still have to die. She's like the shark in Jaws. she's just doing what her instincts tell her to do. But since those instincts make her a huge threat she has to be stopped. She's just too devistating to let run lose. Isley had to do something about her when she first appeared in the north. Not only was it his territory, but look at the rate she was going through villages. If that had gone on very long, there would have been no one left in the north for any of the awakened to eat. Priscilla is like a little kid, but remember that in addition to their innocence they have no grasp of the consequences, and very primitave idea's of right and wrong. The last time I visited a friend, I had to ask what happened to his two year old son, since he had a bruise on his face. It seems that his other, slightly older son, had pushed the two year old into a wall. There was no malice in the act, the older boy just had no grasp of what he was doing, and how it was wrong to do it. But that doesn't mean he can just shrug, and let it happen again.

On another topic, judging by her abilities, and how she acts/talks, I'd say Priscilla is definetly a defensive type.
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Old 2007-09-07, 20:33   Link #119
sariss
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Well...this chapter makes me glad. I wonder for a long time if Isley loves Priscilla that much to do anything for her or he just have his plan for power scheming in his brain......

So when I saw his smile at the end of this chapter, I felt a lot relieved. Wow...I love this guy....he just have his conqueror plan by using Priscilla for a long time, I guess. I like him more now that he seems to be the one who make pawns either they are stronger or weaker than him and is confident that he can control them. I think he admit defeat just so to use her as an valuable asset in his future plans. This chapter ensures me that the smile I saw of him in the his fight with Luciela is the smile of the one who everything went according to his plan , not a smile of a devoted love of the defeat. Priscilla is far faraway from being the final boss from what I've looked now. And Isley or the Org. is the more possible choice of that.

And I have to say if Teresa 's still alive , it seems she can beat all three abyssals easily. Looking from the damage Priscilla did to Isley, that makes me certain Teresa is the strongest person in Claymore now.
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Old 2007-09-07, 22:47   Link #120
Fenrir_valindri
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I think what they ment by tragedy is this, Priscilla doesn't die in the end because Clare fails, and dies, that is what I ment by tragic at least.

Or she Awakens while killing Priscilla one of the two would be sufficient for tragedy.

I was not arguing for Priscilla's redemption, I was just mentioning it as a possibility.


To anh minh;

We do have the insanity plea for a reason, we don't kill insane people if they cannot be held responsible for their actions, at least we try not too.

-----------------------------------------------

Priscilla is a threat to humans, and she should be eliminated because she is a threat, but I don't see her as a murderer, and I do not think she deserves to die for what she has done.

She simply NEEDS to die if humans are to live a little bit safer, and if Clare fails to kill Priscilla, I would not be surprised.

---------------------------------------

As for Teresa being stronger then the Abyssal Ones, I think she was probably slightly stronger then them without awakening, but if she Awakened she would probably be the only being around who could kill Priscilla.

I do like the fact Isley is using Priscilla though, he makes a good bad guy.
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