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Old 2007-09-07, 23:24   Link #121
Hamstadini
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It seems to me that we've kinda strayed from what the Claymores are actually doing out there and what the Yoma are doing... in fact my sleep deprivation might be blurring my perception a bit, but this has turned into a discussion of who's right and who's wrong.

Whether Priscilla was conscious of killing Teresa is up to debate. Her body was in such a flux that it's possible that her yoma half just...reacted. After that, it's nature - an Awakened feeds on people, therefore it's natural for her to kill and feast on humans. That doesn't make it any more right or wrong, it's just what they do.

Thus Claymores can't find Priscilla guilty or "deserving" of anything, since she doesn't seem conscious of her actions. However, they can go to war against her. Why? Because even though Priscilla may be doing something completely natural in the Claymore world, it's at a detriment to humanity. And I think we all know that humans will fight tooth and nail to stay alive.

Thus, it's not a battle of justice. It's just force of will.

Okay, enough of the delirious talk. Time for bed.

*Collapses onto the slab of granite.*

Oy...
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Old 2007-09-08, 00:04   Link #122
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
So the bolded text cant just be Priscilla's warping voice? She was losing control of her own body, I would think it would be a bit hard to control how you talk during that time, let alone think clearly.
Nope, don't think so and as I see it there are people on this forum that agree with me. Read Negativedark's response
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negativedark View Post
(...)

Quote:
So yes, you are assuming things, and Teresa never underestimated Rosemary, she toyed with Rosemary, she knew victory was assured, and flaunted it.
Don't play stupid, You know what I meant. Teresa approached Priscilla as she did with Rosemary, to be more precise, the moment she was about to cut her head off, she was toying with her too but not on such a scale, underestimated Priscilla not Rosemary.

Quote:
But some people certainly seem to think it equates to that.
Thankfully you dont seem to think so, but many others do not see it that way, I think your having a hard time understanding my point here.
Ok, then again name these "some people" and qoute their opinions so I could believe You.


Quote:
You assume alot, saying that I am excited and lustered after a demonstration of Priscilla's power, glad you can read my mind and all, or think I can display my emotions that well over a bunch of text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I love Teresa's extra scene, I just dont believe it was as good as the other two.
So you more than just love Priscilla scene, what's the word stronger than love ? Super love ? You're denying yourself :]

Your behaviour resembles me of a joke:

Priscilla says to Isley:
If you guess how many guts I have in the basket, I will give you all five kilograms/eleven pounds of it.


Yeah I'm a mind reader

Quote:
and who the hell said anything about redemption and forgiveness?
You didn't, true.
If not forgiveness then revenge remains and a fight Clare vs Priscilla.

Quote:
If Miria just wanted to expose them, she could have done so long ago.
Nope, without evidence no one would believe silver-eyed witch, also if she started
to talk openely about organization's secrets she wouldn't live too long (org has quite good intelligence service, they know what's going on well). Take to account that there were no media so she would have to expose these things to villages one by one + hire some of the villageres to spread the rumours. Now she's powerful enough to escape organization but doesn't have proofs unless she demonstrated awakening process .
Quote:
You assume alot, why would Yoma not have hid themselves before? Humans are still capable of killing them if they just hunt in the open, thats why they can shape-shift, to conceal themselves.
My assumptions are based on facts, volume 1 page 41. Why would youma not hid before ? Because of their superior abilities maybe (sarcasm) ? Check out by the chance that youma aren't better than the worst AB or humans.

Quote:
Double pay is because of two Yoma, implying that each Yoma costs a large sum of money, as in the Organization is raping the poor villagers of their hard earned money, that they need to live their lives.
Double payment was only by Teresa's doing, she knew how to do a 200% rate of output, the best employee they ever had :].

Quote:
You notice how a majority of the warriors that were sent to Pieta died right?
Seems like the Organization did damn well in stomping out that potential problem, and with the profit of slowing down an AB force.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that their "pretty decent indoctrination program" isn't so decent afterall if most of the claymores of one generation are left to die because this program didn't work.

Quote:
Audrey also owed the 7 Ghosts her life, and she still denied them alot of the important information they wanted, Miria only got information out of Audrey because she read her like a book. Audrey only gave information to Clare, and stated that she would be their enemies the next time they met.

Sounds like pretty decent indoctrination to me.
If Audrey was really loyal and couldn't think by herself but obey orders she wouldn't even say a word. She not only unwillingly gave information to Miria but also willingly told Clare about Galatea.
Clarice was loyal, why didn't You bring her as Your argument ? She was saved by these Ghosts, nonetheless she reported it to the organization.
The thing is all depends on who is strongminded and who's just stupid or easily manipulated. 72 chapter is proof of that they don't have "indoctrination program". Organization teaches them only "code of honour", claymores are working for organization only because organization is helping people and not because they have brains washed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamstadini View Post
Whether Priscilla was conscious of killing Teresa is up to debate. Her body was in such a flux that it's possible that her yoma half just...reacted. After that, it's nature - an Awakened feeds on people, therefore it's natural for her to kill and feast on humans. That doesn't make it any more right or wrong, it's just what they do.

She was blinded by rage, she didn't listen to anyone the moment Teresa spared her life, it was her own actions not youma's

Last edited by Gooral; 2007-09-08 at 00:23. Reason: Yeah I'm a mind reader
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Old 2007-09-08, 01:40   Link #123
Hamstadini
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Arguing aside, I just thought of something:

If Isley is bent on using Priscilla as a pawn, why didn't he send her to fight Leucritia for the lands of the south instead of risking himself? One might say he was leaving her as an ace-in-the-hole, but... :-S
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Old 2007-09-08, 02:07   Link #124
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Interesting chapter. Always awesome to see Isley in his awakened form -- I'm still of the opinion that he is by far the coolest looking Awakened Being. The extra scene reminds me why I like this series.

As for the anime, I've given up on it after the debacle that was episode 22. I can't even care less how the anime ends anymore. It's already a mess anyway.

One little detail I found interesting is Rigald's connection to Isley. I had planned a fanfic entirely around the first generation of male hybrids, building on the inherent animosity I detected between the two men. I never got around to completing the fanfic unfortunately, but it's still swoshing around in my imagination somewhere.
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Old 2007-09-08, 03:04   Link #125
Fenrir_valindri
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Let the quote wars BEGIN!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Nope, don't think so and as I see it there are people on this forum that agree with me. Read Negativedark's response
Just because people agree doesn't make it correct.

I could just as easily say Hamstadini agrees with me. (Great posts by the way Hamstadini.)



Quote:
Don't play stupid, You know what I meant. Teresa approached Priscilla as she did with Rosemary, to be more precise, the moment she was about to cut her head off, she was toying with her too but not on such a scale, underestimated Priscilla not Rosemary.
I really did not see Teresa approaching Priscilla the way she approached Rosemary, with Rosemary, Teresa released her Yoki because she COULD, while with Priscilla she HAD to.
Teresa was no fool, she knew Priscilla was the real deal.


Quote:
Ok, then again name these "some people" and qoute their opinions so I could believe You.
Give me a bit, its late and I'll look up some quotes for you later.


Quote:
So you more than just love Priscilla scene, what's the word stronger than love ? Super love ? You're denying yourself :]
I loved it more then the Teresa chapter, primarily because it had 3 awesome characters in it, not just one.

Miria's chapter was my favorite, and I wont even try to argue that is the pure-fanboyism in me

Quote:
Your behaviour resembles me of a joke:

Priscilla says to Isley:
If you guess how many guts I have in the basket, I will give you all five kilograms/eleven pounds of it.


Yeah I'm a mind reader
Your quite the poor mind reader I just like to play devil's advocate, especially when I take the underdog's viewpoint (as in the one a majority of people don't agree with.)


Quote:
You didn't, true.
If not forgiveness then revenge remains and a fight Clare vs Priscilla.
I fight I would rather have not find its conclusion, because in all honesty, I fear for Clare.

Quote:
Nope, without evidence no one would believe silver-eyed witch, also if she started
to talk openely about organization's secrets she wouldn't live too long (org has quite good intelligence service, they know what's going on well). Take to account that there were no media so she would have to expose these things to villages one by one + hire some of the villageres to spread the rumours. Now she's powerful enough to escape organization but doesn't have proofs unless she demonstrated awakening process .
I was trying to make a point Miria's goal in not only to expose the Organization, it is to take revenge upon them, and possible take them down.

Quote:
My assumptions are based on facts, volume 1 page 41. Why would youma not hid before ? Because of their superior abilities maybe (sarcasm) ? Check out by the chance that youma aren't better than the worst AB or humans.
Yes they controlled a small isolated village with a group of 5 Yoma, including a flyer. I saw no soldiers, and the Mangaka likes portraying humans as quite helpless against the Yoma, when we really wouldn't be.

Yoma are also supposivly solitary hunters normally, it is likely that the introduction of the Claymores is what started them on their hunting packs, so they could have a chance against the Claymores.

Notice even a strong Yoma like the one in Rabona ran away when a group of well armed and armored humans approached.

Quote:
Double payment was only by Teresa's doing, she knew how to do a 200% rate of output, the best employee they ever had :].
During Teresa's arc she mentions that they would have had to pay the fee for multiple Yoma, since she killed 7, and she gave them a freebie in the end too, this heavily implies that they charge per-Yoma.

Quote:
True, but that doesn't change the fact that their "pretty decent indoctrination program" isn't so decent afterall if most of the claymores of one generation are left to die because this program didn't work.
Not all the Claymore's sent North were trouble makers, most of them were probably just cannon-fodder to the Organization, and notice how they all followed orders like nice little lambs, until Miria started giving them a sense of purpose, and a chance for survival.

Quote:
If Audrey was really loyal and couldn't think by herself but obey orders she wouldn't even say a word. She not only unwillingly gave information to Miria but also willingly told Clare about Galatea.
Being confused, and immensely grateful helped, she was unwilling with Miria, and probably did not see the harm in Clare's question, especially since she was not sure herself, and just gave Clare her guess.

Quote:
Clarice was loyal, why didn't You bring her as Your argument ? She was saved by these Ghosts, nonetheless she reported it to the organization.
Clarice didn't actually know who had saved her, she just had her own theory, and since she found the graves, she probably did not see the harm of reporting them.

Quote:
The thing is all depends on who is strongminded and who's just stupid or easily manipulated. 72 chapter is proof of that they don't have "indoctrination program". Organization teaches them only "code of honour", claymores are working for organization only because organization is helping people and not because they have brains washed.
Notice alot of powerhouses fall under your "stupid or easily manipulated" category; Alicia, Beth (both of which are products of brainwashing at its finest), Raphaela (some A+ blackmailing here), Priscilla (before she cracked), Irene (before she became afraid of battle), and Teresa (before she met Clare.)

Quote:
She was blinded by rage, she didn't listen to anyone the moment Teresa spared her life, it was her own actions not youma's
Yes it was Priscilla's cracked mentality that lead her into the second fight with Teresa, but it is HIGHLY debatable whether it was truly her wish at that last moment to cheap-shot Teresa.

She hated Yoma more then anyone, and was so zealous about protecting humans that she blindly attacked Teresa off of the belief that Teresa was a murderer. I honestly think she did want to die at that moment, rather then become a Yoma, but her already weak willpower crumbled to her Yoma half, and everyone present paid the price.


RAWR let the eternal debates continue!!!

/falls unconcious
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Old 2007-09-08, 03:20   Link #126
Hamstadini
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Flattery will get you everywhere, Fenrir.

For myself, I'm still stuck on this idea that her body acted without the mind's consent - yoma-integrated bodies have a way of acting on their own, as we saw in the cathedral. And as I posted in... another medium... would it be right to punish her for sins she can't remember?

Oy... here we go with the right and wrong debate again...
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Old 2007-09-08, 03:46   Link #127
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Let the quote wars BEGIN!!!
Quote:
Teresa was no fool, she knew Priscilla was the real deal.
She knew but lowered her guard like she did when fighting Rosemary. I disagree, at that moment she was a fool.
Quote:
I loved it more then the Teresa chapter, primarily because it had 3 awesome characters in it, not just one.
When Clare fights Priscilla there will be more than 2 cool characters, that's for sure. No one, nor Riful nor the organization would miss sth big as that.

Quote:
Yes they controlled a small isolated village with a group of 5 Yoma, including a flyer. I saw no soldiers, and the Mangaka likes portraying humans as quite helpless against the Yoma, when we really wouldn't be.

Yoma are also supposivly solitary hunters normally, it is likely that the introduction of the Claymores is what started them on their hunting packs, so they could have a chance against the Claymores.

Notice even a strong Yoma like the one in Rabona ran away when a group of well armed and armored humans approached.
All of this happened after Claymores were present in the world, before youmas didn't have to fear that much of a bunch of humans. This strong youma didn't have problems with two best man and they won only because Clare was there. Monster knew that with many people it would be injured at least and when fighting in the daylight reinforcement troops would come immediately so running away was a smart thing to do.

Quote:
Not all the Claymore's sent North were trouble makers, most of them were probably just cannon-fodder to the Organization, and notice how they all followed orders like nice little lambs, until Miria started giving them a sense of purpose, and a chance for survival.
They were soldiers not fanatics. Many of them were too scared to do anything, dropped their swords, piss their pants etc. If they were blinded killing machines they wouldn't feel fear.
Quote:
Notice alot of powerhouses fall under your "stupid or easily manipulated" category; Alicia, Beth (both of which are products of brainwashing at its finest), Raphaela (some A+ blackmailing here), Priscilla (before she cracked), Irene (before she became afraid of battle), and Teresa (before she met Clare.)
Teresa ?? She was amused when she collected the money, she didn't listen to orders, ironically responded to her superiors etc., she didn't reveal her true self. The only reason she stayed with the organization was because it was the only place she fitted in, she didn't have where to go.

Quote:
Yes it was Priscilla's cracked mentality that lead her into the second fight with Teresa, but it is HIGHLY debatable whether it was truly her wish at that last moment to cheap-shot Teresa.
I don't think any of us will convince the other that it's otherwise. For me it's obvious that she wanted Teresa dead, be it while she was still human or a youma.
It was clearly stated in the manga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
RAWR let the eternal debates continue!!!

/falls unconcious
Not eternal because I don't see big "openings" to counterattack and propably it will be my last response to what we started yesterday (8:58 GMT+2). I don't think I'll be able to think of anything, even stupid, that has relevance to our posts .
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Old 2007-09-08, 03:59   Link #128
Seska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Me too, I will try to think of sth tomorrow
Argh!... Now i need some cup of fresh coffee beside me, if i go read all the big replys here

But, hey. Here is spoiling impossible
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Old 2007-09-08, 12:45   Link #129
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
She knew but lowered her guard like she did when fighting Rosemary. I disagree, at that moment she was a fool.
Rosemary caught Teresa off guard, yes, but that was because of the sudden increase in speed and power, not because Teresa had underestimated her.

Possibly, but I was under the impression (feel free to disagree) that Priscilla's speed had reached the point that Teresa could not even see the strike, letting her guard down or not.

Quote:
When Clare fights Priscilla there will be more than 2 cool characters, that's for sure. No one, nor Riful nor the organization would miss sth big as that.
Heh provided they are still around, but yes, I am positive there will be more cool characters involved in that fight as well.

Quote:
All of this happened after Claymores were present in the world, before youmas didn't have to fear that much of a bunch of humans. This strong youma didn't have problems with two best man and they won only because Clare was there. Monster knew that with many people it would be injured at least and when fighting in the daylight reinforcement troops would come immediately so running away was a smart thing to do.
Yes, the biggest none AB Yoma in the story so far, and it ran from a bunch of humans, despite its advantage over them, and Clare was down for the count as well. The Yoma did not just fear injury, it feared death.

Quote:
They were soldiers not fanatics. Many of them were too scared to do anything, dropped their swords, piss their pants etc. If they were blinded killing machines they wouldn't feel fear.
Well if an impossibly powerful killing machine showed up and started offing your leaders without giving them a chance of retaliation, most people would react that way, as you said their not fanatics and I never said they were fanatics, I said they were lambs, and they were lead to the slaughter pretty well.


Quote:
Teresa ?? She was amused when she collected the money, she didn't listen to orders, ironically responded to her superiors etc., she didn't reveal her true self. The only reason she stayed with the organization was because it was the only place she fitted in, she didn't have where to go.
I have no doubt in my mind that Teresa would have killed for the Organization, and Teresa was more then powerful enough to lead a "rebellion" against the Organization, and if their were more then a few people willing to join her, it would not have a poor chance of succeeding.

The point? She didn't want to, she worked for the Organization, and followed their orders, sarcasm or not, she followed the orders, and remained loyal until she met Clare.

You can make ironic statements and be sarcastic all you want, but if someone says "jump" and you do, then your not any less under their thumb.

Quote:
I don't think any of us will convince the other that it's otherwise. For me it's obvious that she wanted Teresa dead, be it while she was still human or a youma.
It was clearly stated in the manga.
It was clearly stated that berserk Priscilla wanted Teresa dead, not the begging for death Priscilla.
These are two very different mentalities, one who was not thinking clearly because of anger, and the other utterly terrified of her loss of control and inevitable transformation into a monster.

Mind set changes with circumstance.

So you have your opinion and I have mine.

Quote:
Not eternal because I don't see big "openings" to counterattack and propably it will be my last response to what we started yesterday (8:58 GMT+2). I don't think I'll be able to think of anything, even stupid, that has relevance to our posts .
I do, considering alot of your stuff is opinion, not proven fact, but I suppose the same could be said for my stuff as well.

I ment "eternal" because I knew that the arguement cant be conclusivly ended without the Mangaka's intervention, because only the mangaka knows where the story is going.

Bah, stealing all my fun away like that. >.<

Ah well it was fun while it lasted
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Old 2007-09-08, 22:42   Link #130
emu777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Rosemary caught Teresa off guard, yes, but that was because of the sudden increase in speed and power, not because Teresa had underestimated her.

Possibly, but I was under the impression (feel free to disagree) that Priscilla's speed had reached the point that Teresa could not even see the strike, letting her guard down or not.



Heh provided they are still around, but yes, I am positive there will be more cool characters involved in that fight as well.



Yes, the biggest none AB Yoma in the story so far, and it ran from a bunch of humans, despite its advantage over them, and Clare was down for the count as well. The Yoma did not just fear injury, it feared death.



Well if an impossibly powerful killing machine showed up and started offing your leaders without giving them a chance of retaliation, most people would react that way, as you said their not fanatics and I never said they were fanatics, I said they were lambs, and they were lead to the slaughter pretty well.




I have no doubt in my mind that Teresa would have killed for the Organization, and Teresa was more then powerful enough to lead a "rebellion" against the Organization, and if their were more then a few people willing to join her, it would not have a poor chance of succeeding.

The point? She didn't want to, she worked for the Organization, and followed their orders, sarcasm or not, she followed the orders, and remained loyal until she met Clare.

You can make ironic statements and be sarcastic all you want, but if someone says "jump" and you do, then your not any less under their thumb.



It was clearly stated that berserk Priscilla wanted Teresa dead, not the begging for death Priscilla.
These are two very different mentalities, one who was not thinking clearly because of anger, and the other utterly terrified of her loss of control and inevitable transformation into a monster.

Mind set changes with circumstance.

So you have your opinion and I have mine.



I do, considering alot of your stuff is opinion, not proven fact, but I suppose the same could be said for my stuff as well.

I ment "eternal" because I knew that the arguement cant be conclusivly ended without the Mangaka's intervention, because only the mangaka knows where the story is going.

Bah, stealing all my fun away like that. >.<

Ah well it was fun while it lasted
MY GOOD GOD, in any two of you reply war posts there is enough text to constitute one chapter(short to medium) of fanfiction. I hope you are planning to use this creative energy to make fanfiction masterpieces fenrir, theres nothing like misused energy to make me an unhappy panda/emu.

In any case I thought this scene was good, it amused me that priscilla could rip out two peoples guts without changing any of her body. I would have like it better if they had shown rigald getting owned by priscilla though, that bad kitty certinly deserved a "time-out".
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Old 2007-09-09, 00:19   Link #131
Tempest35
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Priscilla: *sleepy-eye* Easley~...

Easley: Yes Priscilla?

Priscilla: Where's my stuffed kitty teddybear...?

Easley: ... probably hiding

Priscilla: *blinks* ... *trudges off*
--------------------

Rigald: *on the roof* She's a demon... 0.0 A pure demon...Braiding ribbons into my mane! Unforgiveable!!!

Priscilla: *Awakened form* Hello Kitty. So this is where you were...I was getting tired of looking for you...

Rigald:

Piscilla: It's time for sleep, kitty. *eyes glow* NOW *grabs him and trudges back to her room despite his digging his claws into the walls and floors, trying to get away*
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Old 2007-09-09, 08:10   Link #132
Negativedark
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Poor Rigald, he's finally free when she finds Raki, and then he gets pureed.
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Old 2007-09-09, 12:01   Link #133
Fenrir_valindri
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Lol, I could see Priscilla using Rigaldo as her dolly.

Hilarious.
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Old 2007-09-09, 16:41   Link #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Priscilla: *sleepy-eye* Easley~...

Easley: Yes Priscilla?

Priscilla: Where's my stuffed kitty teddybear...?

Easley: ... probably hiding

Priscilla: *blinks* ... *trudges off*
--------------------

Rigald: *on the roof* She's a demon... 0.0 A pure demon...Braiding ribbons into my mane! Unforgiveable!!!

Priscilla: *Awakened form* Hello Kitty. So this is where you were...I was getting tired of looking for you...

Rigald:

Piscilla: It's time for sleep, kitty. *eyes glow* NOW *grabs him and trudges back to her room despite his digging his claws into the walls and floors, trying to get away*
lol awesome!
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Old 2007-09-09, 17:54   Link #135
Rehwyn
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Okay, I don't think I've commented on Priscilla's killing of Teresa before, but with the massive quotes above I felt a bit obliged to at least voice my opinion. Note that this is specifically my opinion since there is nothing that conclusively explains the circumstances.

Yes, I believe Priscilla wanted Teresa dead. She did specifically express this several times, even after Teresa spared her life.

Priscilla did kill Teresa, no matter the circumstances. Thus, she had both the intent to kill Teresa and carried out this desire.

However, I do not believe it was her full intent to deceive Teresa by requesting she cut off her head. Notice how the second Priscilla passes her limits, she stops making any attempts to attack Teresa. Priscilla abhorred Yomas and I'm confident the realization that she was irreversibly becoming one was a greater concern for Priscilla than her desire to killing Teresa.

This did create a problem though, in that Priscilla had two conflicting desires. She could let Teresa kill her and spare herself from becoming a yoma, but Teresa would go "unpunished" in Priscilla's mind. Considering Priscilla's already unstable consciousness, as demonstrated by freezing in fear of Teresa, brashly going after Teresa in anger, her incoherent ramblings about Papa, and the loss of control of her yoki, I find it very unlikely that she was lucid enough to concentrate on just one of her desires, much less resist the transformation of her mind to that of a yoma after passing her limits. I mean, during the fighting she demands Teresa give back Papa, even though it was Priscilla herself that killed him. That is clearly not the workings of a coherent mind.

Thus, it is my opinion that even though Priscilla wanted Teresa dead, as Priscilla was turning into a yoma it was not thoughts of killing Teresa that solely occupied her mind. Rather, I believe her mind was in a flux with the desire to avoid becoming a yoma, the desire to killed Teresa, and possibly even grief over her Papa. Her mind was slipping into that of a yoma and I believe it was more of a survival instinct that drove her to attack Teresa at the last moment, though the desire to kill Teresa probably aided in the motivation. This "survival" instinct is present in Priscilla as an AB as well; she only attacked and killed Irena and the others after they attacked her. The same goes with Isley as we've just seen in ES3. It is not unreasonable to believe based on this that survival was a major motivation at the time of her Awakening. Also, consider Priscilla's rediculously fast regeneration, a trait of defensive Claymores; wasn't it stated that defensive types were generally concerned more with personal survival than vengeance?

To summarize, I believe it was both Priscilla's survival instinct and her desire to kill Teresa that caused her to attack at the last moment instead of letting her head get chopped off, but I believe survival was a larger factor. I do not believe Priscilla intentionally set it up so that she could catch Teresa offguard but believe that Priscilla genuinely didn't want to become a yoma and at least to some degree did want Teresa to kill her. However, I believe Priscilla had a moment of weakness and let her desire to survive and her desire to kill Teresa take over.
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Old 2007-09-10, 10:54   Link #136
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehwyn View Post
Okay, I don't think I've commented on Priscilla's killing of Teresa before, but with the massive quotes above I felt a bit obliged to at least voice my opinion. Note that this is specifically my opinion since there is nothing that conclusively explains the circumstances.

Yes, I believe Priscilla wanted Teresa dead. She did specifically express this several times, even after Teresa spared her life.

Priscilla did kill Teresa, no matter the circumstances. Thus, she had both the intent to kill Teresa and carried out this desire.

However, I do not believe it was her full intent to deceive Teresa by requesting she cut off her head. Notice how the second Priscilla passes her limits, she stops making any attempts to attack Teresa. Priscilla abhorred Yomas and I'm confident the realization that she was irreversibly becoming one was a greater concern for Priscilla than her desire to killing Teresa.

This did create a problem though, in that Priscilla had two conflicting desires. She could let Teresa kill her and spare herself from becoming a yoma, but Teresa would go "unpunished" in Priscilla's mind. Considering Priscilla's already unstable consciousness, as demonstrated by freezing in fear of Teresa, brashly going after Teresa in anger, her incoherent ramblings about Papa, and the loss of control of her yoki, I find it very unlikely that she was lucid enough to concentrate on just one of her desires, much less resist the transformation of her mind to that of a yoma after passing her limits. I mean, during the fighting she demands Teresa give back Papa, even though it was Priscilla herself that killed him. That is clearly not the workings of a coherent mind.

Thus, it is my opinion that even though Priscilla wanted Teresa dead, as Priscilla was turning into a yoma it was not thoughts of killing Teresa that solely occupied her mind. Rather, I believe her mind was in a flux with the desire to avoid becoming a yoma, the desire to killed Teresa, and possibly even grief over her Papa. Her mind was slipping into that of a yoma and I believe it was more of a survival instinct that drove her to attack Teresa at the last moment, though the desire to kill Teresa probably aided in the motivation. This "survival" instinct is present in Priscilla as an AB as well; she only attacked and killed Irena and the others after they attacked her. The same goes with Isley as we've just seen in ES3. It is not unreasonable to believe based on this that survival was a major motivation at the time of her Awakening. Also, consider Priscilla's rediculously fast regeneration, a trait of defensive Claymores; wasn't it stated that defensive types were generally concerned more with personal survival than vengeance?

To summarize, I believe it was both Priscilla's survival instinct and her desire to kill Teresa that caused her to attack at the last moment instead of letting her head get chopped off, but I believe survival was a larger factor. I do not believe Priscilla intentionally set it up so that she could catch Teresa offguard but believe that Priscilla genuinely didn't want to become a yoma and at least to some degree did want Teresa to kill her. However, I believe Priscilla had a moment of weakness and let her desire to survive and her desire to kill Teresa take over.
I am suprised, I agree with everything you just said

Very well layed out, I dont think I have anything else to add but this, well done
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Old 2007-09-10, 11:12   Link #137
DazarGaidin
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I think that Priscilla knew what she was doing when she loped her head off, it was a calculated move not some sort of insane monstrous reaction to the final swing of teresa sword. I think she had it in her head (ill admit she wasn't completely straight in the head) that teresa killed her family or whatever and wanted nothing but her death. Even if it meant awakening...so she found a trick to do it. Love the irony after her refusal to sneak behind her back.
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Old 2007-09-10, 12:41   Link #138
Taylor_Maclaurin
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It seems that people divide into two groups: those who think that when someone wants to kill you he won't change his mind in 5 minutes no matter the circumstances and those who think that it is possible under certain factors. Well, I can understand uncertainty when someone is referring to Priscilla's behaviour, but the fact is she wanted Teresa dead not only in her Youma form but also as a Claymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehwyn View Post
Her mind was slipping into that of a yoma and I believe it was more of a survival instinct that drove her to attack Teresa at the last moment, though the desire to kill Teresa probably aided in the motivation. This "survival" instinct is present in Priscilla as an AB as well
I can't agree it was survival instinct, Priscilla attacked Teresa immediately she was in her range, Teresa haven't even swing her sword towards her. You can't say about survival instinct even in Teresa's case when she waited to the last moment when confronting her executioners, in Priscilla's case you're searching for excuse to not call her a cheater.
Her death was super stupid, someone who trained for years, fought countless battles and killed infinite number of enemies became in few days a sucker. Yeah, right.
Teresa's death was inevitable, she was just too powerful to be left alive. Without this incident there wouldn't be great story so Yagi-sensei turned console on, wrote "Teresa goddes mode off" and she was killed.
As I see it our "camp" leads :P.
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Old 2007-09-10, 14:42   Link #139
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Taylor_Maclaurin View Post
It seems that people divide into two groups: those who think that when someone wants to kill you he won't change his mind in 5 minutes no matter the circumstances and those who think that it is possible under certain factors. Well, I can understand uncertainty when someone is referring to Priscilla's behaviour, but the fact is she wanted Teresa dead not only in her Youma form but also as a Claymore.
I dont disagree.

Quote:
I can't agree it was survival instinct, Priscilla attacked Teresa immediately she was in her range, Teresa haven't even swing her sword towards her. You can't say about survival instinct even in Teresa's case when she waited to the last moment when confronting her executioners, in Priscilla's case you're searching for excuse to not call her a cheater.
I disagree, Priscilla's sword was very close to her, although not instinctual, it was not like Priscilla to perform a cold, calculated deception, she always attacked in a straight-foward manner, for her personality to so drastically change a simple explanation is already apparant, her Yoma half took over, and killed Teresa.

I wont deny Priscilla wanted her dead, but I do disagree that she would prioratize killing Teresa over retaining her humanity.

Quote:
Her death was super stupid, someone who trained for years, fought countless battles and killed infinite number of enemies became in few days a sucker. Yeah, right.
I believe that it was a simple matter of speed at that point.
Teresa's god-mode may have been turned off, as you say, but it is undeniable that the speed at which Priscilla attacked must have been incrediable, because no one, not even Teresa, saw it.

Teresa could not even see Priscilla's swing, in the moment before Priscilla went over her limit Teresa had lost complete sight of her and had to be warned by Irene in order to react in time.

So carelessness was part of the equation, but it was not the only thing in the equation.

Quote:
As I see it our "camp" leads :P.
You can state your opinion as much as you like, but it does not mean it's true
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Old 2007-09-10, 14:55   Link #140
Gooral
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Ok, now we have proofs. Check this out http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/...13660465566761
Teresa was the strongest Claymore ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri
I disagree, Priscilla's sword was very close to her, although not instinctual, it was not like Priscilla to perform a cold, calculated deception, she always attacked in a straight-foward manner, for her personality to so drastically change a simple explanation is already apparant, her Yoma half took over, and killed Teresa.
She attacked in a straight forward manner because she was sure she would win anyway. Once it failed she took any means necessary to accomplish her mission. She suddenly attacked Teresa even before going past her limit, just after saying "you killed my papa".

Last edited by Gooral; 2007-09-10 at 15:05. Reason: she always attacked in a straight-foward manner - false
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