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View Poll Results: Gurren-Lagann - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 108 70.13%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 27 17.53%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 7.79%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 1.95%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.95%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.65%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-09-17, 13:09   Link #141
Shouta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musashiken View Post
It's hard to have everything in a show, 26 eps or not. U give them character development, everything else goes down the drain. The show is pretty fast paced, and adding more character development will just slow it down. Just give me an example of a show with good consistent character development over a plot that spans over 7 years and lots and lots of action sequences in just 26 episodes. Perhaps if they just took out the 7 year time slip and extended the first 15 episodes into 26 episodes by concentrating on the other characters, then yeah I think you'll have what you want. But at the expense of pacing.
I definitely think you can have your cake and eat it. Finding a a balance is difficult though and is probably the hardest thing to do with any show. However, I do think mecha series, particularly Super Robot, tend to find that balance very well. Godannar would be a pretty recent example of a show that manages to fit the character development/drama, action, and comedy all into a single 26 episode series (even if I hated some of it )

Quote:
Originally Posted by musashiken
As for Kittan, you would have figured this pattern out by episode 8 right? First 7 episodes they were just messing around and bam! Yoko tells Kamina she likes him out of the blue. Not to mention she's been messing around with Simon as well in the first 6. Sure she probably made some cow eyes at Kamina for like what... 2% of the time during the first 7 episodes? How's that different from Kittan suddenly kissing her after staring at her boobs for a few eps?
Well, the relationship between Yoko, Simon, and Kamina was easy to see because their character interaction was so prominent in the first 8 episodes. Even though there weren't pivotal progress-making moments in their relationships, you could get a sense where they each stood. There's a lot more of a basis to go on for Yoko's moment IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musashiken
Even if all my reasoning is wrong, GL is still a mecha show about hotblood and fast pace and doing things on impulse, not Gundam Wing/Seed soapie.
Wing was soapie? Man, I need to see it again, been like 7 years now.

GL IS a show of fast action and crazy passion but it doesn't mean the show can't have a little something on the side to fill it out. A lot of mecha shows manage to fit a bit of character development and etc in without interrupting the rush of blood to the brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjTrizz
I would think that someone who saved your life several years ago would bear some importance, don't you?
But what makes him more important than the rest of the B-Squad?

My issue isn't really with Simon thinking highly of Kittan, he should. It's that the events up to that point really don't show how important Kittan is to him or the series. A slightly more personal connection between the two somehow would've made more sense and made a bigger impact on the viewer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7th
We'll have to agree to disagree Shouta. Pehaps I'm just reading too much into it myself, which is very possible, but I thought there was plently of development for Kittan since episode 4. It's done in a rather subdued fashion for sure, but I appreciate they're not trying to shove the characters in your face.
Kittan hasn't really gotten the proper development, even subtly IMO. More so prior to the timeskip than after it. It's really because he doesn't face his own issues and the viewer isn't keyed into it or because there isn't much that actually aimed squarely on him and his relationships.

I mean, he doesn't need a lot of extra time to be developed. He just needs a few scenes here and there prior to this episode. Maybe a scene where his feelings for Yoko are a bit clearer instead of him blushing at Yoko's rack for that angle. Maybe he should've had a scene where he helps to get Simon back on track during the post-timeskip which would've served both the story, his own character development, and his connection Simon.

Those are just a few examples that I can think of. You don't need much, just more meaningful.
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Old 2007-09-17, 13:19   Link #142
Anh_Minh
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I don't think Simon and Kittan were that connected, nor should they be.

Kittan tried to fill Kamina's shoes, as leader of the Dai Gurren Dan before stepping off for Simon, and also as a big brother figure for the younger members, but he was no Kamina. He knew it, too.

So, yeah, Simon had a lot of respect and friendship for Kittan, but there will never be another Aniki, for him. If only because he grew beyond the need for one.
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Old 2007-09-17, 14:02   Link #143
weirzbowski
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Two men we must pay homage to....Kittan and Kamina. Kamina was the man who kept our hopes alive that this animation would countinue to get better and better despite the lack of show in the trailer. Now we have Kittan who became the evolution of Kamina and its because of his death its gears us up for the final episode when Simon will kick anti-spiral ass beserker style. There deaths are in a way have a very significant impact on what makes this animation so good.
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Old 2007-09-17, 14:07   Link #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shouta View Post
Kittan hasn't really gotten the proper development, even subtly IMO. More so prior to the timeskip than after it. It's really because he doesn't face his own issues and the viewer isn't keyed into it or because there isn't much that actually aimed squarely on him and his relationships.

I mean, he doesn't need a lot of extra time to be developed. He just needs a few scenes here and there prior to this episode. Maybe a scene where his feelings for Yoko are a bit clearer instead of him blushing at Yoko's rack for that angle. Maybe he should've had a scene where he helps to get Simon back on track during the post-timeskip which would've served both the story, his own character development, and his connection Simon.

Those are just a few examples that I can think of. You don't need much, just more meaningful.
I think you're overlooking many things, Shouta. Kittan's trust in Simon was there since before the time-skip, as he listened to Yoko's story about Kamina's past or how he tried to make him snap out of his depression right after the death of his brother or even episode 14 simplistic dialog of him calling Simon "a complete leader" as he guides them against the beastmen army... not to mention the scenes of him playing against Rossiu after the time-skip.
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Old 2007-09-17, 14:14   Link #145
ACE2003
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I don't have anything significant to say except that this episode was fcuking awsome!!! And...who the world gave this a 1 rating in the poll?! Anyways, it's as if this anime just keeps getting better and better with every episode. I'm definately going to be sad once this is over.
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Old 2007-09-17, 14:28   Link #146
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OMG so epic!!!!!!!!!!!! the new theme + Super Galactic Gurren-Lagann = PURE WIN!!!
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Old 2007-09-17, 15:13   Link #147
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DAMN IT i want to watch so bad im fucking stuck at work till 8pm. Dont these people know i have to get my Lagann on? This episode sounds so hardcore i cant freakin wait
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Old 2007-09-17, 16:38   Link #148
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I loved the episode so I gave it a 10, almost never do that, great stuff.

Can't wait for the next ep!
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Old 2007-09-17, 16:52   Link #149
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Giga Drill Breaker is a Curse...

Spoiler:


Maybe it's really Yoko x Kamina...
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Old 2007-09-17, 16:57   Link #150
Tempest35
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Kittan didn't need much character development - he's a simple guy. Staying simple works. Kittan always belted off whatever first came to his mind, he loves his sisters dearly, he fought for what he believed in and he was a capable guy. If you understand Kamina, you can understand Kittan. Just because he didn't have half an episode for his character development doesn't mean that the man didn't have character to begin with. His loud words came from his soul, whether he messed them up or not.
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Old 2007-09-17, 17:20   Link #151
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I Accept Your Dying Wish

I can't believe that all the good series are close call to ending. In just about two weeks Gurren-Lagann concludes, and I'm starting to sob because the rollercoaster ride has become an out of the world experience to me.

But enough with my rattle.

I should had seen it coming. A titanic episode that was the twenty-fifth one that in both animation and drama department completely surpassed episodes like 8, 13, and 22.

It is a given guys that when it good anime that approach the climax or the very end the quality is going to skyrocket exponentially, and episode 25 was the solid proof to that.

Simply marvelous but at the same time grieving.
Spoiler:


Hang on, Gurren Brigade! Just two more episodes to the goal, and pray that GAINAX does not ruin the ending.
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Old 2007-09-17, 17:25   Link #152
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
As I said, there shouldn't have been any explanation, then. There are some weird stuff in this show that we can pass off for cosmetic or awesome effect, like the Daiganzan's visible shells, sweat-drops, the green Getter Rays spiral energy or Kittan's eyes. Those kinds of issues aren't plot-centric, they're just there to look cool.

The sea is a whole different issue, it was the focus of this episode and the writer's "logical" explanation isn't enough. Too much was explained, leaving little up to the imagination, but the explanation doesn't make much sense.



Is it really an alternate dimension, or just a place far away? The trap seemed like what an Interdictor Cruiser from Star Wars did - used gravity well projectors to pull people out of "hyper-space" and prevent them from getting to their destination. It would seem to me Simon and the Great Gurren Gang were en route to the Anti-Spiral homeworld and got pulled into this space by the Anti-Spirals.

I like the explanation of it being an alternate world were classical and contemporary physics don't apply, but Leeron's explanation still bugs the heck out of me because he calls the area "space", but clearly it's something else because it converts spiral energy into more of the sea. It's not simply "super dense space", and even then, woudln't super dense space go solid, as in singularity? I'd imagine it to be difficult to stay in liquid form.
Well, the reason WHY the space had mass was explained in this very episode.
Lord Genome explains that the DS machine is converting Spiral energy into mass.
Therefore, using Spiral energy in the "sea of space" intensifies its mass, since it's being consumed and converted into more mass.
You only listened to Leeron's part, and didn't listen to Lord Genome's part?
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Old 2007-09-17, 18:41   Link #153
watta
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is the little simoun looking guy at preview the simoun we see on ep1?
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Old 2007-09-17, 18:56   Link #154
musashiken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shouta View Post
I definitely think you can have your cake and eat it. Finding a a balance is difficult though and is probably the hardest thing to do with any show. However, I do think mecha series, particularly Super Robot, tend to find that balance very well. Godannar would be a pretty recent example of a show that manages to fit the character development/drama, action, and comedy all into a single 26 episode series (even if I hated some of it )
Well, I did think of Godannar when I made my earlier post... but well though it's a nice show, it still lacked oomph. People don't really talk about Godannar then right? Even though it's quite a recent show. Godannar's plot was pretty straight forward the whole time, every plot device was already there from the beginning (Main guy, main girl, the enemy, main guy's past). In this sense, GL is more of a roller coaster ride in terms of plot advancement. You have to admit GL had more twist and turns than the number of women with huge knockers in Godannar (ok, maybe I'm exaggerating, there are many many many well endowed women in Godannar... yeah good times).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shouta View Post
Wing was soapie? Man, I need to see it again, been like 7 years now.
I dunno, I don't watch that many mecha shows. Maybe I shouldn't call it a soapie, but 49 episodes of male bonding bordering on gay. But I still liked it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shouta View Post
But what makes him more important than the rest of the B-Squad?

My issue isn't really with Simon thinking highly of Kittan, he should. It's that the events up to that point really don't show how important Kittan is to him or the series. A slightly more personal connection between the two somehow would've made more sense and made a bigger impact on the viewer.

Kittan hasn't really gotten the proper development, even subtly IMO. More so prior to the timeskip than after it. It's really because he doesn't face his own issues and the viewer isn't keyed into it or because there isn't much that actually aimed squarely on him and his relationships.

I mean, he doesn't need a lot of extra time to be developed. He just needs a few scenes here and there prior to this episode. Maybe a scene where his feelings for Yoko are a bit clearer instead of him blushing at Yoko's rack for that angle. Maybe he should've had a scene where he helps to get Simon back on track during the post-timeskip which would've served both the story, his own character development, and his connection Simon.

Those are just a few examples that I can think of. You don't need much, just more meaningful.
I think the main point Gainax is trying to bring here is that even cannon fodder can shine. Kittan is probably the greatest cannon fodder there is. I still think 26 episodes is not enough to add in whatever you want, to accomodate the high pace of the story. Add more scenes of Kittan? How? Everyone is fighting all the time the instance the anti spiral appeared. We had so many scenes of Kittan going solo already. There wasn't time for Kittan to flirt with Yoko when she came back. Wasn't his dialogues with Yoko enough hint already? Sure that kissing scene may not be the culmination of years of emotional interaction between the 2, but it serves its purpose as a dying man's last wish.

As to your reason why Kittan isn't portrayed as more important, I think from the first time he appeared in GL, it's obvious he's important. The few instances where he tried to stand up against Rossiu during his "iron rule", his solo fight, the fact that he's the one who returned Simon's drill to him, I think that is enough to show his importance to the viewers. It may not be enough to show how close he is to Simon, but to the viewers, is that necessary?
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Old 2007-09-17, 20:35   Link #155
ashlay
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Originally Posted by watta View Post
is the little simoun looking guy at preview the simoun we see on ep1?
there are many theories, but most likely it's simon caught in a Anti-Spiral trap, living a "it's a wonderful life" type dreamworld.
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Old 2007-09-17, 22:38   Link #156
Sinestra
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I Accept Your Dying Wish

This episode deserved so much more than a 10 i wish i could give it a 12

My emotions ran high during this episode as usual with series. It was more evident than ever when Kittan started to have serious screen that i knew something was coming. Yoko described Kittan perfectly he needed no over top character development the progression of the dai gurren brigade was his character development. Although I understand his motives and the term im doing because i want to is the perfect way to sum things up i am still sadden by the loss of him, and so was Yoko. But Kittan left them with more hope than despair with his hope. He showed what people with true character are willing to do for what they believe in. Which is why i am not surprised at all when he finally unlocked spiral energy at the end, I had always believed that Kittan and Kamina were cut from very simlar molds and i might add Simon to that list as well. What better way to go out than using the drill that had bought them victory time and time again and making your own badass finishing move the result the King Kittan Giga Drill break. If your going to go out go with fucking style a hug a kiss and a smile.

The music which i have always loved since the series started was perfect. Hearing "Do the impossible see the invisible Row Row Fight the Powar" mixed with the bgm make Kittan's scenes that much more emotional. The fact that 7 members now have given their lives shows just how serious the group was before when they set out. I truly TRULY feel bad for Kittans sisters even though he got to say good bye to his niece and 2 sisters. He never really got a chance to square things up with Kinon


Finally i get to see the most kick ass transformation of the year. Screw you Voltron, kiss my ass SDF-1 you all pale in comparisons to TRANSCENDANT SUPER SPIRAL DREADNOUGHT GANMAN anything with transcendant or dreadnought in its name automatically kicks ass

In closing i think that the more despair the Anti spirals try to throw at our heros they will only get stronger. They tried it again by showing the grave yard of fallen ganmans and how many times humanity has lost. But honestly i dont think the anti spirals have ever delt with a group like the brigade. Finally Boota Rulz just goes to show doesnt matter how big or small you are its all about the spiral baby.

Now that Kittan gone i hope we dont lose Simon too in the end but with this kind of story the hero usually falls after doing what he needs to do.



If anyone knows where i get the song please drop me a line if its even available
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Old 2007-09-18, 00:13   Link #157
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Boota's so awesome. He's cute, yet cool at the same time, when he had his arms crossed like Kamina in the Gurren cockpit.
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Old 2007-09-18, 01:37   Link #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You only listened to Leeron's part, and didn't listen to Lord Genome's part?
I read through Lord Genome's line many times, but the translation I have for his expose is, "Spiral power is absorbed and converted into raw energy", the "raw energy" bit being one of the points of confusion I brought up.

My thanks for the clarification, a metaphysical energy to physical matter conversion makes much more sense than metaphysical energy to "raw energy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
The music which i have always loved since the series started was perfect. Hearing "Do the impossible see the invisible Row Row Fight the Powar" mixed with the bgm make Kittan's scenes that much more emotional. The fact that 7 members now have given their lives shows just how serious the group was before when they set out. I truly TRULY feel bad for Kittans sisters even though he got to say good bye to his niece and 2 sisters. He never really got a chance to square things up with Kinon
I've got to admit, I'm one of the people who have shifted viewpoints on the music like nine times already, from "perfect" to "horrible" to "ehh, not so bad". In the end, though, I have to agree with you - the music started off with a melancholic "Roh Roh" but then shifted to opera during Kittan's drama, then moved to a combination of both during Super Galactic's rise from the ocean. In a sense that gave it a "completeness", and I grew to like it quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Finally i get to see the most kick ass transformation of the year. Screw you Voltron, kiss my ass SDF-1 you all pale in comparisons to TRANSCENDANT SUPER SPIRAL DREADNOUGHT GANMAN anything with transcendant or dreadnought in its name automatically kicks ass
Ehh, well, we didn't see much of a transformation, did we? Just sprouting arms, legs, and a pair of jagged shades. One detail of super robot shows is that robots with very detailled transformations from vehicle/creature are typically done so because they are very easily made into toys. GL pretty much eschews this since the show frequently violates the law of conservation of matter, but the transformations are still cool, though I wouldn't count Super Galactic's as one of the best.

The Gunbuster scene was great, though. I only wish Super Galactic did something to demonstrate how tough it is and not just look tough.

Last edited by Malintex_Terek; 2007-09-18 at 02:25.
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Old 2007-09-18, 03:13   Link #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
The Gunbuster scene was great, though. I only wish Super Galactic did something to demonstrate how tough it is and not just look tough.
My guess is that they decided not to outshine Kittans moment, after all this was HIS ep
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Last edited by OMG_Zerg_Rush; 2011-03-21 at 15:13.
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Old 2007-09-18, 04:12   Link #160
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simouns sunglasses were a bit gay though

and boota getting his powers... ok not totally far fetched, since his ass in the early episodes did provide them with energy and he has been gathering energy between yoko's breasts. But stil a bit far fetched
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