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Old 2010-12-20, 12:38   Link #201
secretzfan
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I dare you to find official evidence to prove they're weaker than non arrancar VL's. Go ahead. Try it. But of course, that would involve first trying to establish exactly how powerful a VL is before they become arrancar. Good luck with that. Because the evidence we do have is rare, vague, and inconsistent at best.
What gave you the idea that they were VL maybe some of them are VL but the ones we saw
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:41   Link #202
sayde
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
What gave you the idea that they were VL maybe some of them are VL but the ones we saw
This is why I can't debate with you. Because half the time I clearly end up missing your points and you clearly end up missing mine. So maybe we should ignore each others replies from this point on.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:46   Link #203
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
This is why I can't debate with you. Because half the time I clearly end up missing your points and you clearly end up missing mine. So maybe we should ignore each others replies from this point on.
What I know is they used to be Espada but we don't know what the privaron were ranked unless it was like
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Old 2010-12-20, 14:49   Link #204
Anubis62
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
You realize your entire point rest on nothing but semantics and interpretation?


You have it backwards. I'm the one pointing out that the "Espadas are VL" case is up to semantics and interpretation; I have no opinion either way. xD

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Vasto Lorde level could either mean:
1.) Most of them were as strong as Vasto Lordes
2.) Most of them were Vasto Lorde "Level" (since you know...Vasto Lorde is an actual "Level" within the menos class.)
1.) Yep.
2.) So I suppose every creature and individual which has been called "Captain Level" went through a captains examination, including Three Captains plus the Head Captain, or was recommended by Six captains and approved by three others, or defeated the previous captain in a battle (witnessed by at least 200 Squad members)?
The characters in Bleach CONSTANTLY compare things with how powerful they are to other OFFICIAL species/officer level.
Come on; take Bleach into context, why dontcha?

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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
I wouldn't even think to doubt what he had meant by that if you hadn't commented on it
That's why I'm here. As far as speculation on stories goes, there's nothing I despise more than people taking a random assumption and making it out to be fact.
I'm not arguing either way, I am casting an assumption into doubt, where it should be and remain until it is confirmed which, knowing TK, won't be anytime soon.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:12   Link #205
sayde
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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Come on; take Bleach into context, why dontcha?
When you take things into context (like this), it's best to factor in ALL of the evidence the series provides. So when you consider there's hardly any proof at all to suggest a VL is any stronger than an adjuchas lvl arrancar beyond one characters statements that have been translated several different ways, to mean several different things, I seem to be the only one among us using the word "level" in the proper context. Because if most of the Espada were merely as strong as non-arrancar Vasto Lorde's, that notion leads to gaping plot holes that I already discussed.

On the other hand, if the Espada were mostly of the Vasto Lorde "level" turned into arrancer, then that makes much more sense. I even managed to find one manga scanlation that directly suggests the word "level" to be used in the exact context I'm advocating.
Spoiler for saving page space:

Of course, this is also part of the same shred of evidence I've been claiming has been translated and interpreted several different ways. So take it as you will. But this is the scanlation I'm going with as this is the one that most appropriate fits in with the "context" of the situation. And when you consider that 9 out of the 10 espada have either been proven to be VL's or have no proof to suggest they're anything less, I'd say it proves my point all the more when you take Kubo's statements into consideration.

Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-20 at 15:27.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:24   Link #206
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
When you take things into context (like this), it's best to factor in ALL of the evidence the series provides. So when you consider there's hardly any proof at all to suggest a VL is any stronger than an adjuchas lvl arrancar beyond one characters statements that have been translated several different ways, to mean several different things, I seem to be the only one among us using the word "level" in the proper context.
"Proper" context is not what TK is known for.
And, unfortunately, TK is who we have to base our facts upon, as inconsistent and/or subjective as they are.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Because if most of the Espada were merely as strong as non-arrancar Vasto Lorde's, that notion leads to gaping plot holes that I discussed on the previous page.
What else is new?


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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
On the other hand, if the Espada were mostly of the Vasto Lorde "level" turned into arrancer, then that makes much more sense. I even managed to find one manga scanlation that directly suggests the term "level" to be used in the exact context I'm advocating.
Spoiler for saving page space:

Of course, this is also part of the same shred of evidence I'm been claiming has been translated and interpreted several different ways. So take it as you will.
SO not only were they Vasto Lorde, but they were also Arrancar-powered up Vasto Lorde, and were defeated by some upstart captains (excepting Shunsuei)?
Vasto Lorde were SPECIFICALLY mentioned to be above captain level (again with the "levels"), whether that is true or not, it is the only specific mention of just how powerful they are.
Take that with the feact that the Espada were under orders to...uh...find the Vasto Lorde, it is simply not smart to take it for granted that they are Vasto Lorde.
Yep. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was beaten by Kendo. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was killed by a slice to the waist. An arrancar Vasto Lorde suffered death by digested hand. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was beaten at a children's game.
All of their victors were also at or below average captain level. :/
Oh, and Tite Kubo meant to say they...erm...WERE Vasto Lorde.

Like I said, I am not saying they aren't. Just pointing out that we shouldn't just assume they are.

They are arrancar, and by being so, they were Vasto Lorde Level. That simply goes to show how powerful Vasto Lorde would be if they were arrancar, and why Aizen was seeking them. With the Espada.

But forgive me. I suppose I simply don't have enough context, obviously. I should take "Level" as a biological process seriously, when it is used countless times as a power/reiatsu-comparison.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:25   Link #207
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And when you consider that 9 out of the 10 espada have either been proven to be VL's or have no proof to suggest they're anything less, I'd say it proves my point all the more.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:41   Link #208
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would also like to point out again that this ~Captain-level is quite vague

we have the previous Kenpachi, who was KILLED by ONE STRIKE by our Kenny - a guy in rags who can't do anything except swing his sword like a man possessed and who at that point possibly didn't know what a zanpakuto or kido is

Sajin, who is .. big .. and his Bankai is .. big

Hitsugaya, who can spam ice and has a pretty time limit for his Bankai



then there're Shunsui, Unohana, Ukitake, Urahara, Yoruichi, Byakuya, Shinji .. AIZEN was a Captain too




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All of their victors were also at or below average captain level. :/
just out of curiosity - who would you place @ average Captain level, who above & who below ?
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:46   Link #209
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Actually, he was shown beaten up. That's it. We don't get to see who beat him up, we don't get to see when it happened, and we don't even get to see how it went down. So the only thing we can deduce is that he ended up in that condition by fighting even more hollow. For all we know, his reckless and suicidal conduct may have simply resulted in him taking on much more than he can handle (and more than a VL could handle for that matter). We don't even know when that fight takes place. It could've happened shortly after he already wasted energy on eliminating the previous colony. And it could've happened after he attempted to take on 1 hollow, or 1000. So sorry, but that point proves nothing at all.
Their corpses shown on the ground along with Noitora.

Nel (former no. 3) defeated Noi's attackers and was left unscathed. The enemies that gave him trouble were no match for Nel.

Privaron < Noitora (no.8) << Nel. What I'm wondering is how exactly you assume all of them stronger than a Vastro Lorde. When their strengths vary so much.


Quote:
I have. You just don't seem to be getting what I'm saying.
Yeah, what you're saying is that you believe all VL Menos to be roughly the strength of a VC. Based on:

1) There was anime-only flashback of Halibel being outclassed by adjuchas arrancar. Because of this, any arrancar must outclass non-arrancar VL.
2) The Epsada were all defeated and you believe that them being much weaker than we were lead to believe is the only explanation for it. But you don't take into account how they actually lost or how they fought and look only at the end result of the fights

Quote:
That might've been due to the number of different translations we got. Interestingly enough, not one of them state that a VL's strength to be above "most" captains. One source translated it to say:
which we know is complete BS. Because it directly implies them ALL to be more powerful than even Yamamoto. This particular scanlation all but confirms their strength to have been retconed if you chose to go by this. This translation also states that Aizen would need "over" 10 VL's to defeat SS which contradicts the scanlation by another group. This other group in question gives us a completely different translation that mentions nothing of a VL's strength beyond confirming that 10 VL's = The end of SS. This translation also presented another glaring inconsistency by stating that Aizen would need only 10 to win (as oppose to more) and that they estimated he already obtained them (which turned out to be wrong).
This isn't an issue with any particular translation. This is what Histugaya said according to Viz :

1) vastro lorde menos combat is above that of the captains'
2) We are short 3 captains
3) The fact above combined with Aizen leading 10 or more arrancarized VL, would mean sure defeat for SS


Histugaya did not say that every VL's strength greater than Yamamoto's. And certainly did not mention that he estimated Aizen had already found that number after he had just stated SS unsure of their numbers.

Quote:
Do you really want to go here? Without respira, Barry's speed and strength wasn't all that great. In case you forget, even without releasing, Barry was slowing down Soifon's movements when she got close.
She's faster than him?
Spoiler for Soifon can't follow Barragan's Sonido:


That's Barragan. Unlreleased. Leaving Soifon in shock with his speed. You can say Soifon's weak or any other technicality used to cry foul whenever an Espada shows superiority over a captain. Strength is strength. If certain ability allows an Espada to match a captain then they are on captain-level strength.

Quote:
Yet none of the captains he fought went all out. Seriously, we can't say Stark was definitely superior to captain level when not a single captain he fought used Bankai while Stark was going all out.
How many of the captains Stark fought used their bankai against Aizen hmm? None? I guess we can't really say that Aizen was really a match for them then because they didn't go all out right? That's a bad excuse. Many characters not shown using their bankai even in crucial situations. Just because character doesn't use their bankai doesn't mean they're not serious about the fight or that the opponent's not on their level.

Quote:
On top of that, when he finally was defeated, it was no longer a 2-on-1 battle. It was a fair 1-on-1 battle between Stark and a Shunsui that finally got serious, but not serious enough to go Bankai. So Starks performance was very underwhelming for #1. In fact, he's the only one he didn't fight a single Bankai at all.
Yes it was fair battle after Stark had been distracted so Shunsui could stab him in the back (fair enough, Stark did similar thing earlier). But Stark also not using his guns or wolf attack.

Quote:
So basically you're arguing that the Espada were superior to Captain level but performed poorly thanks to bad writing. I'd like to believe that, but there's too many contradictions to be found if we assume their strength was in fact superior to their opponents. On the other hand, if their real strength turned out to be overestimated, then suddenly almost everything falls right into place.

So Hallibels flashback > Hitsugaya's/Kubo's crappy 4 year old translated statements with confirmed incorrect info.
Yes, they did IMO, show many times where they outclassed captains. But that is arguable. I will admit that their exact strength is debatable. But you basically just look at the end results of the fights and the flashback of one character along with your misinterpretations of how strong Hitsu said they were and make speculation on that.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I dare you to find official evidence to prove they're weaker than non arrancar VL's. Go ahead. Try it. But of course, that would involve first trying to establish exactly how powerful a VL is before they become arrancar. Good luck with that. Because the evidence we do have is rare, vague, and inconsistent at best unless you're willing to use the anime as evidence--which would only prove my point.
You haven't found any official information that menos VL are weaker. Asking others to prove something doesn't prove your point at all. You dismiss statements from a character in the manga stating VL strength by assuming neither he or the mangaka no what they are talking about. And then say anime-only flashback of single character applies to every other Espada.


But anyways, I think I've said my piece. Not that Kubo didn't have contradictions and inconsistencies with the strength levels, but I think overall your impression of how strong VL were actually supposed to be was a bit skewed to begin with.
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Old 2010-12-20, 16:24   Link #210
Anubis62
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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
just out of curiosity - who would you place @ average Captain level, who above & who below ?
Well, TBH, That whole statement was not really a point I am making myself, just one that the Manga makes. But if I were to put them on a scale of 1-10, I would have Yama/Aizen as #1, and Mayuri/Komamura at #10. That's just off the top of my head; a vague, general list. Nothing concrete.
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Old 2010-12-20, 19:05   Link #211
sayde
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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
SO not only were they Vasto Lorde, but they were also Arrancar-powered up Vasto Lorde, and were defeated by some upstart captains (excepting Shunsuei)?
YES!!!! I don't understand why you can't seem to accept that harsh reality of the matter as a likely possibility when you JUST flat out admitted I was correct in stating Bleach to have "gaping plot-holes".

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Vasto Lorde were SPECIFICALLY mentioned to be above captain level (again with the "levels"),
...once again, according to one translation of a statement that's been translated and interpreted to hell and back.

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
whether that is true or not, it is the only specific mention of just how powerful they are.
Exactly. And when that statement is the "only specific" shred of evidence we have, and that evidence in and of itself is surrounded by mass amounts of confusion and is highly unreliable in the first place, it leaves a lot of room for error.


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Yep. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was beaten by Kendo. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was killed by a slice to the waist. An arrancar Vasto Lorde suffered death by digested hand. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was beaten at a children's game.
All of their victors were also at or below average captain level. :/
Oh, and Tite Kubo meant to say they...erm...WERE Vasto Lorde.
Pretty much. Barry and Stark were already implied to VL's before joining Aizen. And Hallibel was to in the anime. And those confirmed arrancar level Vasto Lorde's all died in stupid ways. So why should the others be any different?


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Like I said, I am not saying they aren't. Just pointing out that we shouldn't just assume they are.
Feel free to refrain from making that assumption. Just don't expect me to follow suit.

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
They are arrancar, and by being so, they were Vasto Lorde Level.
When it comes to final members of the Espada, I'd argue they were above VL "level" in terms of the context you insist on using it in (which I think is wrong).

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
That simply goes to show how powerful Vasto Lorde would be if they were arrancar, and why Aizen was seeking them.
We saw how powerful a VL arrancar can be through Hallibel, Barry, and Stark. In the end, they were a huge disappointment. Aizen confirms it himself. He even says that all of Espada combined were weaker than him. Now if Vasto Lorde level arrancar were as a strong you imply them to be, not only would Aizen not have been stronger than all of them combined, but they would've lived up to expectations. Besides, think about it like this. If Aizen hadn't completed his 10 member group of VL's, then there would've been absolutely no reason for disappointment. Because he should've entered the war already knowing beforehand that he didn't even come close to being equipped with the warriors needed to win. But the truth is, Aizen entered the war with completely opposite expectations. He thought they wouldn't even have to lift a finger. And he was clearly disappointed in the result. This means he must've reached his goal of obtaining VL's, but was let down by the end outcome despite this. Otherwise, it'd be pretty silly for him to have set his expectations so high.


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
But forgive me. I suppose I simply don't have enough context, obviously. I should take "Level" as a biological process seriously, when it is used countless times as a power/reiatsu-comparison.
When there's evidence to suggests that you should take "Level" as a biological process seriously, for a change, then maybe you should think about doing so.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Their corpses shown on the ground along with Noitora.

Nel (former no. 3) defeated Noi's attackers and was left unscathed. The enemies that gave him trouble were no match for Nel.
The panel shows only a portion of the battle field. It's hardly indicative of all the enemies Noi could've fought. Once again, we know almost nothing about the details of the battle. Hence, it's a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Privaron < Noitora (no.8) << Nel. What I'm wondering is how exactly you assume all of them stronger than a Vastro Lorde. When their strengths vary so much.
I made that clear. I base the belief on evidence you refuse to believe is canon.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yeah, what you're saying is that you believe all VL Menos to be roughly the strength of a VC. Based on:

1) There was anime-only flashback of Halibel being outclassed by adjuchas arrancar. Because of this, any arrancar must outclass non-arrancar VL.
2) The Epsada were all defeated and you believe that them being much weaker than we were lead to believe is the only explanation for it. But you don't take into account how they actually lost or how they fought and look only at the end result of the fights
Pretty much. And I did take into account how they lost. You spent the later half of your reply confirming this fact. You just don't seem to agree with *how* exactly I took it into account.


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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
1) vastro lorde menos combat is above that of the captains'
2) We are short 3 captains
3) The fact above combined with Aizen leading 10 or more arrancarized VL, would mean sure defeat for SS
If this is the jist of Viz's translations, then so be it. I can't seem to find Viz's translations online. However, if possible, I'd like to see some direct quotes from it. Because I don't think vastro lorde menos combat is above that of the captains' is a direct quote. I also can't help shake the feeling that Viz may mentioned something about their capabilities as oppose to their strength.

Also the third part of that statement you mentioned is particularly interesting to me. Because the statement coincides with a point I previously brought up based on a scan I just posted. It further confirms that Aizen was pursuing "arrancarized VL" as in Vasto Lordes he can turn into Arrancar. On top of that, I already proved that it's just as likely for the 9 of the 10 espada to be VL's since there's no way to officially prove any of them are adjuchas. And no one has presented any evidence as of yet to prove me wrong on this. I also provided evidence to strongly suggest WW was a VL. This means we have a plausible enough possibility to suggest Aizen did have 10 VL arrancar upon entering the war.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
She's faster than him?
Spoiler for Barragan completely surprising Soifon with Sonido:
*sighs*
That happened while Soifon was still under the initial effects of Barry's ability (which I just stated was slowing her down). So of course he was fast enough to get the jump on her. She hadn't even completely figured out the true nature of his ability just yet. And once again, I refer you to Omaeda, who's speed proved ample enough to avoid certain death during the moments when he was doing everything he could to stay out of his abilities range.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Strength is strength. If certain ability allows an Espada to compete with a captain then they are on captain-level strength.
If that's how you want to look at, fine. But I can't agree. To me, there's a vast difference in correlation between overall strength and combat capabilities. Going by your logic, I'd have to assume Hachi to be beyond Captain level just because his kido allowed him to defeat Barry and his above-Captain level ability.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
How many of the captains Stark fought used their bankai against Aizen hmm? I guess we can't really say that Aizen was really a match for them then because they didn't go all out right?
Thing is, Aizen actually has numerous plausible and official reasons to believe his strength was superior to most of his opponents, regardless of whether they used Bankai or not. The same can't be said for Stark.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yes, they did IMO, show many times where they outclassed captains. But that is arguable. I will admit that their exact strength is debatable. But you basically just look at the end results of the fights and the flashback of one character along with your misinterpretations of how strong Hitsu said they were.
I wish you'd stop claiming that I'm looking at the end results of the fights only. Because I've brought up examples from midway through certain battles to further some of my points already. Also, you're evidence to suggest that I'm misinterpreting Hitsu's statement is just as strong/weak as my claims suggesting you're the one misinterpreting it.


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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
You haven't found any official information that they're that they're menos VL are weaker.
I found my evidence. Once again, you simply don't want to believe it just because it was in the anime. Though if it's any consolation, numerous locations online have been stating that the anime flashback is supported by the Bleach masked databook.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
You dismiss statements from a character in the manga stating VL strength by assuming neither he or the mangaka no what they are talking about.
That's because I actually have official statements regarding Kubo that came from Kubo himself to back up my reasons for doubting Kubo in the first place. So it's not like my claim is completely unfounded. When I imply Kubo/Hitsu has no idea what they're talking about, it's because I have actual evidence to support a very reasonable claim. For instance. He officially confirmed he's not big on planning ahead. He also confirmed he has to go back to re-read his manga from time to time. He flat out admits to doing things that couldn't be more indicative of an author who's likely to commit inconsistencies within his own work.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
And then say anime-only flashback of single character applies to every other Espada.
Because there's nothing to contradict the anime-only flashback beyond the evidence you and I can't seem to agree on.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I think overall your impression of strong VL were actually supposed to be was kinda skewed to begin with.
Right back at you. And don't worry, I think I'm finished saying my piece as well. To those reading this, feel free to have the final words. But don't expect anymore in-depth or lengthy replies. Because this is getting awfully time consuming, tiresome, and vexing. Clearly no one here is going to prove to me that VL level menos are stronger than Adjuchas level arrancar. Conversely, it's apparently silly for me to try and convince anyone of the opposite.

Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-20 at 19:34.
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Old 2010-12-20, 19:15   Link #212
secretzfan
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Pretty much. Barry and Stark were already implied to VL's before joining Aizen. And Hallibel was to in the anime. And those confirmed arrancar level Vasto Lorde's all died in stupid ways. So why should the others be any different?
They were villains so they would die easily as Nnoritra thing that he beat Ichigo he could be VL as for the way he was beaten well he already was wouneded from nel so he was weaker and Tite set it up like that., but Nnoritra is also a arrnacar so a aduchas gained power to bea t Vl and that brings me here.
Quote:
When it comes to final members of the Espada, I'd argue they were above VL "level" in terms of the context you insist on using it in (which I think is wrong).
Quote:
They are arrancar, and by being so, they were Vasto Lorde Level.
Remeber that in the anime a aduchas arranacar fought a VL and won
Quote:
We saw how powerful a VL arrancar can be through Hallibel, Barry, and Stark. In the end, they were a huge disappointment. Aizen confirms it himself. He even says that all of Espada combined were weaker than him. Now if Vasto Lorde level arrancar were as a strong you imply them to be, not only would Aizen not have been stronger than all of them combined, but they would've lived up to expectations.
Aizen really doesn't count as he strong period he lead the arranacar and created them so of course he would see them as weak, but they fought a uneven battle plus reatsu is a factor here too
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Old 2010-12-20, 19:45   Link #213
Anubis62
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
YES!!!! I don't understand why you can't seem to accept that harsh reality of the matter as a likely possibility when you JUST flat out admitted I was correct in stating Bleach to have "gaping plot-holes".
Because the fact that plot holes exist send ANY piece of information into doubt, regardless of what the hardest piece of evidence is. And how is admitting the series has plot holes automatically mean that I must agree the Espada are VL's?

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
...once again, according to one translation of a statement that's been translated and interpreted to hell and back.
You could say that about the entire series, including every shred of evidence supporting your theories.
It's the context of the discussion at the time I look to, along with every "Captain Level/Power/Reiatsu/whatever-you-want-to-call-it comparison. It happens all. The.Time. It's rote by now. If something powerful comes along, it is automatically filed under the term "Captain Level" or somesuch. It's Irrefutable. Even if one, or even two or three, are due to bad translations, there are simply too many instances where it occurs to be ignored.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Exactly. And when that statement is the "only specific" shred of evidence we have, and that evidence in and of itself is surrounded by mass amounts of confusion and is highly unreliable in the first place, it leaves a lot of room for error.
There's also the fact that they were searching for Vasto Lorde. The fact that they were soundly beaten by upstart captains when 10 Vasto Lorde would spell doom for SS (against 13 Captains and thousands of Ranking officers). The fact that it. is. never. specifically. said. All of your pieces of information add up to a great amount of evidence, don't get me wrong; but to plug your ears and say
"They are VL, they are VL, and because no one can prove that they aren't means they are, They are VL they are VL, la lalalaaa..." is idiocy and naive.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Pretty much. Barry and Stark were already implied to VL's before joining Aizen. And Hallibel was to in the anime. And those confirmed arrancar level Vasto Lorde's all died in stupid ways. So why should the others be any different?
Implied. Not said. Again, all I'm saying is that you. have. no. evidence. and as such, should not consign yourself irrevocably to the "fact" that they are. All I'm saying.
Yes, Halibel was insinuated to be Vasto Lorde. But the entire montage was filler. They wanted to add more depth to her character, and took too many liberties. Why would Aizen be looking so fervently for Vasto Lorde, when a modified adjuchas (a stupid hammerhead one no less) could cream one?



Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Feel free to refrain from making that assumption. Just don't expect me to follow suit.
Keyword: assumption. It's an embarrassment to a thinking mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
When it comes to final members of the Espada, I'd argue they were above VL "level" in terms of the context you insist on using it in (which I think is wrong).
What context? I'm saying VL's are stronger than captains NORMALLY, based on an entire scene explaining VL's, and the aura of fear and awe that is in the undertone of whoever is mentioning them. Think that's wrong? Then what about the filler sequence with Halibel? I suppose filler is more respectable than a manga sequence of about the same length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
We saw how powerful a VL arrancar can be through Hallibel, Barry, and Stark. In the end, they were a huge disappointment. Aizen confirms it himself. He even says that all of Espada combined were weaker than him. Now if Vasto Lorde level arrancar were as a strong you imply them to be, not only would Aizen not have been stronger than all of them combined, but they would've lived up to expectations. Besides, think about it like this. If Aizen hadn't completed his 10 member group of VL's, then there would've been absolutely no reason for disappointment. Because he should've entered the war already knowing beforehand that he didn't even come close to being equipped with the warriors needed to win. But the truth is, Aizen entered the war with completely opposite expectations. He thought they wouldn't have to life a finger. And he was clearly disappointed in the end. This means he must've reached his goal of obtaining VL's, but was let down by the outcome.
Wow. Aizen disappointed by someone else's power level. Who would have thought?

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
When there's evidence to suggests that you should take "Level" as a biological process seriously, for a change, then maybe you should think about doing so.
Very good. Now give it to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
since there's no way to officially prove any of them are adjuchas. And no one has presented any evidence as of yet to prove me wrong on this. I also provided evidence to strongly suggest WW was a VL. This means we have a plausible enough possibility to suggest Aizen did have 10 VL arrancar upon entering the war.
Again; evidence is good. Excellent, even. But to assume it's a fact when the entire story has refrained from actually outright saying it, it's still only an assumption, which is all I'm trying to encourage you to treat it as. A good assumption. A creative one. Maybe a likely one. but just that: an assumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
*sighs*
That happened while Soifon was still under the initial effects of Barry's ability (which I just stated was slowing her down). So of course he was fast enough to get the jump on her. She hadn't even completely figured out the true nature of his ability just yet. And once again, I refer you to Omaeda, who's speed proved ample enough to avoid certain death during the moments when he was doing everything he could to stay out of his abilities range.
That is a lot of assumptions being made. :/


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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I wish you'd stop claiming that I'm looking at the end results of the fights only. Because I've brought up examples from midway through certain battles to further some of my points already.
Paste them please. I do not recall anything except Soi-Fon being tired (a flimsy assumption. Realistic, but flimsy) and Nnoitra's battlefield.
Quote plz.

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I found my evidence. Once again, you simply don't want to believe it just because it was in the anime.
The likelihood of a pathetic adjuchas-class hollow being mistaken is just as likely as Soi-Fon being tired and "surprised and thus slower".

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
That's because I actually have official statements regarding Kubo that came from Kubo himself to back up my reasons for doubting Kubo in the first place. So it's not like my claim is completely unfounded. When I imply Kubo/Hitsu has no idea what they're talking about, it's because I have actual evidence to support a very reasonable claim. For instance. He officially confirmed he's not big on planning ahead. He also confirmed he has to go back to re-read his manga from time to time. He flat out admits to doing things that couldn't be more indicative of an author who's likely to commit inconsistencies within his own work.
Exactly. So why believe anything they say? Let's just scrap the entire story why don't we.


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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Clearly no one here is going to prove to me that VL level menos are stronger than Adjuchas level arrancar.
That is a fallacy: belief through non-proof of the reverse.
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Old 2010-12-20, 19:54   Link #214
secretzfan
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Quote:
Again; evidence is good. Excellent, even. But to assume it's a fact when the entire story has refrained from actually outright saying it, it's still only an assumption, which is all I'm trying to encourage you to treat it as. A good assumption. A creative one. Maybe a likely one. but just that: an assumption
Quote:
This means we have a plausible enough possibility to suggest Aizen did have 10 VL arrancar upon entering the war
What does that mean 9 Espada were VL like that is true Syzael was able to fight against VC and a quincy and was eaily beaten by Mayuri but to be more out there if Syzael is wrong Yammy isn't a VL
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:03   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Because the fact that plot holes exist send ANY piece of information into doubt, regardless of what the hardest piece of evidence is. And how is admitting the series has plot holes automatically mean that I must agree the Espada are VL's?
Actually, in that particular quote, I said you should accept the "possibility".

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
You could say that about the entire series,
Except I can't.

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
There's also the fact that they were searching for Vasto Lorde. The fact that they were soundly beaten by upstart captains when 10 Vasto Lorde would spell doom for SS (against 13 Captains and thousands of Ranking officers).
I already explained how Aizen ordering Espada to look for VL's only proves my point. I'm not doing that again. Aizen also confirmed that the majority of the Gotei 13's power lies within their captains (of which they only had 10 of). So lets try not to make it sound like those thousands of ranking officers would've made a difference in the matter. And it wasn't just 10 Vasto Lorde that would spell doom for SS. It was predicted 10 Arrancarized VL's on top of the unknown number of other arrancar Aizen had would be needed.

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Implied. Not said. Again, all I'm saying is that you. have. no. evidence. and as such, should not consign yourself irrevocably to the "fact" that they are. All I'm saying.
Of the 3 espada I brought up in that example, it's completely stupid to believe Barry and Stark where anything but VL's. Because even though it was never directly stated, there's so much official evidence to point to the fact that they are. They all but spell it out for you. In fact, I recall using the word "implied" in the first place out of some sense of consideration to those like yourself who'd actually insist on the possibility that they weren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Yes, Halibel was insinuated to be Vasto Lorde. But the entire montage was filler. They wanted to add more depth to her character, and took too many liberties. Why would Aizen be looking so fervently for Vasto Lorde, when a modified adjuchas (a stupid hammerhead one no less) could cream one?
Maybe because if a weakling adjuchas could become strong enough to surpass a VL, then a VL would be able to gain an equally impressive power boost? *duh*
Are you really even trying to follow along?

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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Wow. Aizen disappointed by someone else's power level. Who would have thought?
Clearly you missed the entire point. Aizen being disappointed isn't the relevant issue here. It's the reasons for his disappointment that is being brought up. To be more specific, it's the difference between having a good reason for disappointment vs not having a good reason at all.


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Very good. Now give it to me.
*points to previous posts*



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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
That is a lot of assumptions being made. :/
Soifon directly states that her movements themselves are slowing down. She confirms it has nothing to do with spiritual pressure, and she mentions nothing of being tired. So she's only left to conclude that it's Barry's ability responsible for slowing her down. I'm not assuming a single thing.


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Paste them please. I do not recall anything except Soi-Fon being tired (a flimsy assumption. Realistic, but flimsy) and Nnoitra's battlefield.
I specifically account for the flow of Starks battle and Yammi's battle in this thread. You probably missed it because those comments where not directed at you. And neither is the one you're quoting me on now for that matter. So look for those quotes yourself. And once more, I did not ever claim Soifon to be tired as a fact or an assumption. You seem to be the only one suggesting it between the two of us.


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
The likelihood of a pathetic adjuchas-class hollow being mistaken is just as likely as Soi-Fon being tired and "surprised and thus slower".
You're the one who keeps assuming she's tired. I'm the one who's telling you of official evidence to prove she was being slowed down by Barry's ability. Just look at chapter 356. She doesn't know how exactly, but it's a conclusion she comes to on her own before Barry confirms it himself.


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Originally Posted by Anubis62 View Post
Exactly. So why believe anything they say? Let's just scrap the entire story why don't we.
I resorted to doubting Kubo's words because of the inconsistencies they've presented in this particular case. Clearly most of the statements in the series don't warrant the same amount of speculation since they don't all lead to the same number of potential inconsistencies. If you're going to try to be witty, at least try not to sound dumb while your at it. Better yet, just stop doing so in general. Because it makes some of your statements very difficult to take seriously. In return, I apologize for any similar comments I made that came across that way.

Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-21 at 07:49.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:17   Link #216
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Aww I am getting left and this discussion is one I like and I am actually good with
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Old 2010-12-21, 12:14   Link #217
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde
If this is the jist of Viz's translations, then so be it. I can't seem to find Viz's translations online. However, if possible, I'd like to see some direct quotes from it. Because I don't think vastro lorde menos combat is above that of the captains' is a direct quote. I also can't help shake the feeling that Viz may mentioned something about their capabilities as oppose to their strength.
I said I was done so I don't really want to repeat all our arguments, but I will wrap up this last loose thread for you. Here's what Hitsugaya said word-for-word. And I'm not claiming that Viz is always perfect translation or anything, but the main points of this quote aren't something that varies scanslation to scanslation. They pretty much all say the same thing except for one where the translators were really loose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitsugaya chp 197, Viz translation
And now for the really bad news...

The strength of a vastro-lorde is above that of captain-class shinigami.

We've had three captains defect...Aizen, Gin and Kaname are probably currently gathering Menos. In addition, we have no way of determining how much stronger a Vastro Lorde becomes when they become arrancar....

It's estimated that if Aizen is leading 10 or more of these Vastro Lorde... then Soul Society is doomed.
If you want a scan, you'll have to wait a little later. I'm not a place with a scanner.

First part of Hitsugaya's quote indicates that a VL's strength is greater than captain-class before they become arrancar. Arrancarization increases their strength by an unknown degree.

And Hitsugaya was talking about the scenario that would present itself if it were 10 SS captains vs. Aizen, Gin and Tousen leading 10 VL. That's why I said you were misinterpreting Hitsugaya's words. Nothing he said about the estimated strength of the VL was contradicted. "Stronger than captain-class" does not mean "Stronger than Yamamoto" and the scenario where Hitsugaya had the strength of the VL overwhelming 10 captains never happened. Instead, it turned out to be at most 4 VL (including WW) against 6 captains + 6 vizard captains and lieutenants.

And I guess we could nitpick about the Espada's actual combat ability all day (though my point about Barragan was that Soifon couldn't even follow his movement, something that had nothing to do with Barragan slowing her own movements becasue her mental perception wasn't affected). But anyway you look at it, the SS captains had extra aid from the vizards, whereas the Espada received no backup save WW. And even with the vizards, they still had a fight on their hands with the Espada. Fighting outnumbered against multiple captains and vizards (even if they didn't resort to bankai) and still holding your own, is nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah, Kubo does contradict supposed strength-level of enemies (like Rukia's early statements about the Menos Grande). But looking at what Hitsugaya said, I don't see how anything that happened actually contradicts it. Besides failing to actually rack up the body count, the top Espada fought on par with the captains. So think of this as a closing argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by secretzfan
What does that mean 9 Espada were VL like that is true Syzael was able to fight against VC and a quincy and was eaily beaten by Mayuri but to be more out there if Syzael is wrong Yammy isn't a VL
I doubt Syzael was VL. In a flashback, Noitora mocks him for not even being a member of the Espada. Why would Aizen be seeking out VL to complete the Espada and not make one already in his service a member? Before anyone mentions Wonderweiss, keep in mind that Aizen needed him for a special purpose which turned him into a completely mindless idiot.

More likely, Syzael was a lesser arrancar promoted into the ranks of Espada.

In my opinion, 9 members of the Espada being VL has little basis except for those who want to make their defeat seem more disappointing to fit in with the idea that the VL were that much weaker than Kubo originally stated.

We know Aizen was still searching for more vastro lorde to complete the Espada at the time the current members already in place. We also heard from Aaaronerio he's always kept as member of the Espada because his potential is virtually limitless so it's unlikely Aizen was searching for a replacement just for him. Also, there's obvious huge strength gap between no.4 and no.5 positions, evidenced by the law that #'s 4 and above not allowed to release under the dome.

I think all these things pretty much point towards the idea that the Espada were a mix of VL and lesser arrancar.
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Old 2010-12-21, 12:36   Link #218
sayde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I said I was done so I don't really want to repeat all our arguments, but I will wrap up this last loose thread for you. Here's what Hitsugaya said word-for-word. And I'm not claiming that Viz is always perfect translation or anything, but the main points of this quote aren't something that varies scanslation to scanslation. They pretty much all say the same thing except for ones where the translators are really loose.



If you want a scan, you'll have to wait a little later. I'm not a place with a scanner.

First part of Hitsugaya's quote indicates that a VL's strength is greater than captain-class before they become arrancar. Arrancarization increases their strength by an unknown degree.

And Hitsugaya was talking about the scenario that would present itself if it were 10 SS captains vs. Aizen, Gin and Tousen leading 10 VL. That's why I said you were misinterpreting Hitsugaya's words. Nothing he said about the estimated strength of the VL was contradicted. "Stronger than captain-class" does not mean "Stronger than Yamamoto" and the scenario where Hitsugaya had the strength of the VL overwhelming 10 captains never happened. Instead, it turned out to be at most 4 VL (including WW) against 6 captains + 6 vizard captains and lieutenants.

And I guess we could nitpick about the Espada's actual combat ability all day (though my point about Barragan was that Soifon couldn't even follow his movement, something that had nothing to do with Barragan slowing her own movements becasue her mental perception wasn't affected). But anyway you look at it, the SS captains had extra aid from the vizards, whereas the Espada received no backup save WW. And even with the vizards, they still had a fight on their hands with the Espada. Fighting outnumbered against multiple captains and vizards (even if they didn't resort to bankai) and still holding your own, is nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah, Kubo does contradict supposed strength-level of enemies (like Rukia's early statements about the Menos Grande). But looking at what Hitsugaya said, I don't see how anything that happened actually contradicts it. Besides failing to actually rack up the body count, the top Espada fought on par with the captains. So think of this as a closing argument. .

Fair enough. And don't bother providing a scan of the statements in question. I believe you.
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Old 2010-12-21, 12:54   Link #219
secretzfan
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I said I was done so I don't really want to repeat all our arguments, but I will wrap up this last loose thread for you. Here's what Hitsugaya said word-for-word. And I'm not claiming that Viz is always perfect translation or anything, but the main points of this quote aren't something that varies scanslation to scanslation. They pretty much all say the same thing except for one where the translators were really loose.



If you want a scan, you'll have to wait a little later. I'm not a place with a scanner.

First part of Hitsugaya's quote indicates that a VL's strength is greater than captain-class before they become arrancar. Arrancarization increases their strength by an unknown degree.

And Hitsugaya was talking about the scenario that would present itself if it were 10 SS captains vs. Aizen, Gin and Tousen leading 10 VL. That's why I said you were misinterpreting Hitsugaya's words. Nothing he said about the estimated strength of the VL was contradicted. "Stronger than captain-class" does not mean "Stronger than Yamamoto" and the scenario where Hitsugaya had the strength of the VL overwhelming 10 captains never happened. Instead, it turned out to be at most 4 VL (including WW) against 6 captains + 6 vizard captains and lieutenants.

And I guess we could nitpick about the Espada's actual combat ability all day (though my point about Barragan was that Soifon couldn't even follow his movement, something that had nothing to do with Barragan slowing her own movements becasue her mental perception wasn't affected). But anyway you look at it, the SS captains had extra aid from the vizards, whereas the Espada received no backup save WW. And even with the vizards, they still had a fight on their hands with the Espada. Fighting outnumbered against multiple captains and vizards (even if they didn't resort to bankai) and still holding your own, is nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah, Kubo does contradict supposed strength-level of enemies (like Rukia's early statements about the Menos Grande). But looking at what Hitsugaya said, I don't see how anything that happened actually contradicts it. Besides failing to actually rack up the body count, the top Espada fought on par with the captains. So think of this as a closing argument.




I doubt Syzael was VL. In a flashback, Noitora mocks him for not even being a member of the Espada. Why would Aizen be seeking out VL to complete the Espada and not make one already in his service a member? Before anyone mentions Wonderweiss, keep in mind that Aizen needed him for a special purpose which turned him into a completely mindless idiot.

More likely, Syzael was a lesser arrancar promoted into the ranks of Espada.

In my opinion, 9 members of the Espada being VL has little basis except for those who want to make their defeat seem more disappointing to fit in with the idea that the VL were that much weaker than Kubo originally stated.

We know Aizen was still searching for more vastro lorde to complete the Espada at the time the current members already in place. We also heard from Aaaronerio he's always kept as member of the Espada because his potential is virtually limitless so it's unlikely Aizen was searching for a replacement just for him. Also, there's obvious huge strength gap between no.4 and no.5 positions, evidenced by the law that #'s 4 and above not allowed to release under the dome.

I think all these things pretty much point towards the idea that the Espada were a mix of VL and lesser arrancar.
This proves that the VL were simply out matched not weak at all even Tia I have to give my props too.
Also, there's obvious huge strength gap between no.4 and no.5 positions, evidenced by the law that #'s 4 and above not allowed to release under the dome.
Makes since I guess so Nnoritra I guess wouldn't be able to touch Ulq even him in his regular form.
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Old 2010-12-21, 22:44   Link #220
Anubis62
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Actually, in that particular quote, I said you should accept the "possibility".
Does "accept the harsh reality" ring a bell? Possibilities have no bearing on my argument; I am simply arguing against making declarative statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Except I can't.
So you'll pick and choose, then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I already explained how Aizen ordering Espada to look for VL's only proves my point. I'm not doing that again. Aizen also confirmed that the majority of the Gotei 13's power lies within their captains (of which they only had 10 of). So lets try not to make it sound like those thousands of ranking officers would've made a difference in the matter. And it wasn't just 10 Vasto Lorde that would spell doom for SS. It was predicted 10 Arrancarized VL's on top of the unknown number of other arrancar Aizen had would be needed.
10 Vasto Lorde. I hear nothing in that scene about Arrancar. Simply Menos Evolutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Of the 3 espada I brought up in that example, it's completely stupid to believe Barry and Stark where anything but VL's. Because even though it was never directly stated, there's so much official evidence to point to the fact that they are. They all but spell it out for you. In fact, I recall using the word "implied" in the first place out of some sense of consideration to those like yourself who'd actually insist on the possibility that they weren't.
Except the fact that they "all BUT" spell it out is all I'm trying to say.
And I suppose it's completely stupid to believe Aizen is anything but a VL?
Just because someone's powerful doesn't automatically mean they're a VL.
Hollow's have the same power potential as Shinigami.
All you are doing by admitting that it's "all but said" is strengthening my point.
You cannot prove the lack of a positive wrong, my friend. Doubt cannot lose an argument. xD


Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Maybe because if a weakling adjuchas could become strong enough to surpass a VL, then a VL would be able to gain an equally impressive power boost? *duh*
Are you really even trying to follow along?
Except that's still relying on "belief through the lack of non-proof". A fallacy.
Are you following along at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Clearly you missed the entire point. Aizen being disappointed isn't the relevant issue here. It's the reasons for his disappointment that is being brought up. To be more specific, it's the difference between having a good reason for disappointment vs not having a good reason at all.
It's the only relevant issue compared to the post I was responding to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
*points to previous posts*
le sigh. I was hoping you would extend the courtesy of informing a semi-new participant of previous conversation pieces. But I suppose that falls mostly on me anyways. If you insist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Soifon directly states that her movements themselves are slowing down. She confirms it has nothing to do with spiritual pressure, and she mentions nothing of being tired. So she's only left to conclude that it's Barry's ability responsible for slowing her down. I'm not assuming a single thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I specifically account for the flow of Starks battle and Yammi's battle in this thread. You probably missed it because those comments where not directed at you. And neither is the one you're quoting me on now for that matter.
So look for those quotes yourself.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
And once more, I did not ever claim Soifon to be tired as a fact or an assumption. You seem to be the only one suggesting it between the two of us.

You're the one who keeps assuming she's tired. I'm the one who's telling you of official evidence to prove she was being slowed down by Barry's ability. Just look at chapter 356. She doesn't know how exactly, but it's a conclusion she comes to on her own before Barry confirms it himself.
My ENTIRE ARGUMENT is based upon the case of doubt. I have made no case FOR or AGAINST anything except actual Dialogue and conversational examples.
I was not the one to bring Soi Fon being tired into this, either as a fact or an assumption.
I don't even remember WHO brought it up; I simply wasn't the one.
Besides, I don't see how it affects this, so let's drop this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I resorted to doubting Kubo's words because of the inconsistencies they've presented in this particular case. Clearly most of the statements in the series don't warrant the same amount of speculation since they don't all lead to the same number of potential inconsistencies. If you're going to try to be witty, at least try not to sound dumb while your at it. Better yet, just stop doing so in general. Because it makes some of your statements very difficult to take seriously. In return, I apologize for any similar comments I made that came across that way.
1.) You simply cannot pick and chose to listen to plot holes or make the case based on them for only parts of the story; it is idiotic.

2.) It was an honest suggestion; not a witty remark. If you are going to try to be "holier than thou", at least try not to sound dumb while you're at it.
I am making basic statements which are inevitable looking at your "picking and choosing of plot holes" and "belief based on non-proof of the reverse" fallacies.
The only way my "witty" remark sounds dumb is because it is something you, by default, would have to accept based upon your argument.
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