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Old 2008-03-16, 00:16   Link #1041
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This was discussed in this thread way back in the beginning of this thread. It was mentioned that, even today, this sort of behaviour isn't unheard of in some parts of rural Japan. It isn't as big of a stretch as you seem to think. That being said, who says this is "modern Japan" anyway? They never said that, did they? It's the world of H2O. The most important thing is that the characters behave in a way that's consistent with the world established in the story. Would it have been better if they had started the story with "In a distant galaxy far, far away..."?
I'm not disputing any intolerance, I can accept that with no problems. Hell it's alive and well all over the place. The law manages to keep it in check since not many people really want to go to jail. Things like shunning people, refusing service, being rude/mean, bullying, etc. are a far cry from committing crimes that could land you in jail. I think there's a certain amount of self preservation common sense that would have to kick in there. The more people exposed or involved would greatly increase the chance that the crimes would come to light. As far as the location, it may not be Japan but they have fancy things like electricity, color tv, telephones, cars and busses so I think we can agree that it's modern. We might be able to verify location if anyone was paying attention to the weather broadcast they showed when the typhoon was coming in, my guess is still Japan though

But yeah, overall this would be easier to swallow if you can explain the absence law enforcement and child welfare services. Being a rural community can partially explain some of that, but it's a bit of a stretch.
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Old 2008-03-16, 00:49   Link #1042
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
As far as the location, it may not be Japan but they have fancy things like electricity, color tv, telephones, cars and busses so I think we can agree that it's modern. We might be able to verify location if anyone was paying attention to the weather broadcast they showed when the typhoon was coming in, my guess is still Japan though

But yeah, overall this would be easier to swallow if you can explain the absence law enforcement and child welfare services. Being a rural community can partially explain some of that, but it's a bit of a stretch.
You're being literal, and this is why you're having a hard time accepting things. We watch anime all the time with amazingly unrealistic elements (magic and mecha and monsters... oh my!) and people have no problem accepting it because it's "clearly fiction", but in this show, arguably modeled after "ye olde backwards rural Japan" (that people in this very thread verified still can exist even in this day and age!), people say it's hard to swallow. My point wasn't "oh this isn't Japan, it could be somewhere else!", it's "it doesn't matter where it is, because it's a fictional world". As a viewer, just like in shows with mecha, magic, monsters, and more, you simply need to accept certain things as being true. In this story world, the village holds such a grudge against Hayami's parents that they hold her fully responsible because she's their daughter. If you absolutely can't believe that this is possible (despite multiple people, including myself, having explained why and how this could be), then all you have to do is simply say "it's true in this story" and be done with it. Then, with that in mind, all the actions of the characters are consistent with this accepted truth. It's really no different from any other anime where you have to accept things you'd normally consider irrational/impossible as being true in that sense, if you want to see it that way. I mean, if you can accept that Otoha is the spirit of Hotaru's dead sister and came back to give Takuma a gift that allowed him to believe he can see... then this really isn't a big deal.
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Old 2008-03-16, 01:08   Link #1043
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
You're being literal, and this is why you're having a hard time accepting things. We watch anime all the time with amazingly unrealistic elements (magic and mecha and monsters... oh my!) and people have no problem accepting it because it's "clearly fiction", but in this show, arguably modeled after "ye olde backwards rural Japan" (that people in this very thread verified still can exist even in this day and age!), people say it's hard to swallow. My point wasn't "oh this isn't Japan, it could be somewhere else!", it's "it doesn't matter where it is, because it's a fictional world". As a viewer, just like in shows with mecha, magic, monsters, and more, you simply need to accept certain things as being true. In this story world, the village holds such a grudge against Hayami's parents that they hold her fully responsible because she's their daughter. If you absolutely can't believe that this is possible (despite multiple people, including myself, having explained why and how this could be), then all you have to do is simply say "it's true in this story" and be done with it. Then, with that in mind, all the actions of the characters are consistent with this accepted truth. It's really no different from any other anime where you have to accept things you'd normally consider irrational/impossible as being true in that sense, if you want to see it that way. I mean, if you can accept that Otoha is the spirit of Hotaru's dead sister and came back to give Takuma a gift that allowed him to believe he can see... then this really isn't a big deal.
I can relate to what you're saying. I'll try to explain how watching this makes me feel. It's like playing a visual novel where you choose all the wrong decisions on purpose. It's like not playing it seriously and just picking the worst paths for the lulz. Some of the justifications they use for character behavior make me /facepalm too I mean what planet would you have to be on for 2 adult males to be afraid that a high school girl is going to "destroy the town". I could see if Hayami had a mecha hidden somewhere or something.

It's entertaining enough, and that's the important part, it's just pretty impossible for me to be emotionally invested in anyone because it's like some scenario out of super no-way crazy land.
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Old 2008-03-16, 01:38   Link #1044
amoirsp
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Very interesting episode 11. Though because of its interesting properties, I do have a random question that's not really plot correlated but just a property that came to mind. Due to a key property in episode 11, I'll put it in a spoiler, but the question itself can't spoil episode 11.

Spoiler:


Though I do find the supposed possible hints from previous episodes about not seeing something quite intriguing. It'll probably be a fun game to see segments of previous episodes that depict even a hint of "wow, it was true the entire time", like how there was one in episode 10, or 9, or maybe all the episodes.
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Old 2008-03-16, 01:42   Link #1045
EphemeralDream
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Part of me hates this show, yet part of me can't stop watching.
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Old 2008-03-16, 01:54   Link #1046
zeth006
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What the heck is wrong with this anime. In today's society, Hirose would be a psychopath for the way he treats that girl...wow...

Finished the rest of this ep. This anime...kind of sucks. Plot structure...all this "I'll protect my mom, so I'll stop Hayami from getting shot" nonsense. Beating Hayami because of his anger against dead people. Hmmmm. Gotta love how they give the main characters an adult level of maturity but when it suits them, they act like little kids. I don't get it.

Oh well. Bad habit of mine is preferring to finish what I start. I guess I'll just have to see how this ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
I'm not disputing any intolerance, I can accept that with no problems. Hell it's alive and well all over the place. The law manages to keep it in check since not many people really want to go to jail. Things like shunning people, refusing service, being rude/mean, bullying, etc. are a far cry from committing crimes that could land you in jail. I think there's a certain amount of self preservation common sense that would have to kick in there. The more people exposed or involved would greatly increase the chance that the crimes would come to light. As far as the location, it may not be Japan but they have fancy things like electricity, color tv, telephones, cars and busses so I think we can agree that it's modern. We might be able to verify location if anyone was paying attention to the weather broadcast they showed when the typhoon was coming in, my guess is still Japan though

But yeah, overall this would be easier to swallow if you can explain the absence law enforcement and child welfare services. Being a rural community can partially explain some of that, but it's a bit of a stretch.

Totally with you on the last part. They try to create a modern rural village. It has cars, villages. Ok so maybe they have to go a distance to go into town. But...no child welfare services. The elder himself is law enforcement? Sorry, doesn't make sense in my book. Here in the states if some idiot geezer tries to pull &^%$ like that, it's jail for him. Attempted 1st degree murder, premeditated murder, assault, battery, you name it.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2008-03-16 at 12:26. Reason: Do not triple post.
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Old 2008-03-16, 02:16   Link #1047
Davidj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
I just wanted to comment on this part. It's true that things are different all over the world, but we're talking about modern Japan here, not some 3rd world nation. They have a modern legal system that frowns upon things like arson, assault, and murder. Even the most brain dead adult would have to realize that the "but she's a cockroach" defense isn't going to cut it if the long arm of the law comes knocking.
Yeah. It's fantasy. But it's fantasy I've seen before, quite a bit, the small town that has such a sense of community and isolation that it is effectively a world unto itself.

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Old 2008-03-16, 04:01   Link #1048
serenade_beta
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Disrupting the bashing of this show and other stuff...

It seems...
Spoiler for a little information on LAST episode...:
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Old 2008-03-16, 04:03   Link #1049
holyman282
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I think the whole village hating hayami thing isn't the big issue here. The plot lies in the fact that despite all the abuse Hayami chooses to live in the village instead of going with her parents... That's the big unbelievable thing here, her parents seems nice to her even after watching up to ep 9. Sure they were bad to the villagers but why does Hayami choose to stay in a village that doesn't want her instead of going to her parents that does?
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Old 2008-03-16, 04:11   Link #1050
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
I think the whole village hating hayami thing isn't the big issue here. The plot lies in the fact that despite all the abuse Hayami chooses to live in the village instead of going with her parents... That's the big unbelievable thing here, her parents seems nice to her even after watching up to ep 9. Sure they were bad to the villagers but why does Hayami choose to stay in a village that doesn't want her instead of going to her parents that does?
We don't really know what happened to her parents, or other relatives for that matter. Hopefully they'll clear that up by the end of the story.
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Old 2008-03-16, 04:33   Link #1051
War_Lord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidj View Post
Yeah. It's fantasy. But it's fantasy I've seen before, quite a bit, the small town that has such a sense of community and isolation that it is effectively a world unto itself.

Brigadoon
Children of the Corn
Higurashi
The Lottery
The Shadow over Innsmouth
The Wicker Man

I don't see why you have to single H20 out as if it's the only unoriginal anime series. You might as well pick on all the new series that follow the route of:

-Mecha
-School life
-Harem
-Maids
-Magical Girl
-Die-hard Heroes

Just about everything has been done before, some themes have been done more than others. The settings and themes are only partially important. What keeps people tuned in are the character interactions and conflicts that the characters have to go through as the story develops.
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Old 2008-03-16, 05:34   Link #1052
SuperKnuckles
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I think bashing things based on originality really doesn't make sense. What about the sequels, the spinoffs, etc? So what if they're not exactly original? I do think the blindness-tease was a negative though.

Also, the animation and storytelling is not exactly consistent in H2O either, though I think it's still very watchable.
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Old 2008-03-16, 05:52   Link #1053
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
I think bashing things based on originality really doesn't make sense. What about the sequels, the spinoffs, etc? So what if they're not exactly original? I do think the blindness-tease was a negative though.

Also, the animation and storytelling is not exactly consistent in H2O either, though I think it's still very watchable.
I think that was a misunderstanding. It was a reply to something I said which was taken a bit out of context then elaborated on by someone else .. lol.

That being said I think it's a fairly original story. It's pretty interesting in it's own right and definitely watchable.
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Old 2008-03-16, 06:56   Link #1054
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
I can relate to what you're saying. I'll try to explain how watching this makes me feel. It's like playing a visual novel where you choose all the wrong decisions on purpose. It's like not playing it seriously and just picking the worst paths for the lulz. Some of the justifications they use for character behavior make me /facepalm too I mean what planet would you have to be on for 2 adult males to be afraid that a high school girl is going to "destroy the town". I could see if Hayami had a mecha hidden somewhere or something.

It's entertaining enough, and that's the important part, it's just pretty impossible for me to be emotionally invested in anyone because it's like some scenario out of super no-way crazy land.
Being scared of her is just an excuse. As they can see Hayami is pretty much harmless. No, their real reason for attempted murder was for revenge on what her parents did before. Grudges are common and it just reveals how ugly human beings are to take it out on a child

Say...domestic abuse has no reason or logic either ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeth006 View Post
Totally with you on the last part. They try to create a modern rural village. It has cars, villages. Ok so maybe they have to go a distance to go into town. But...no child welfare services. The elder himself is law enforcement? Sorry, doesn't make sense in my book. Here in the states if some idiot geezer tries to pull &^%$ like that, it's jail for him. Attempted 1st degree murder, premeditated murder, assault, battery, you name it.
That is in the states, this is Japan. What a different world they live in

And you expect all places to have child welfare? Well if that was the case the Hayami wouldn't have been living in a trailer in the first place. Here the government can give her a nice home. What about in third world countries where it's pretty much everyone for themselves

Extreme example but in rural places, the leader is the one who takes charge of everything. The village is only as good as their leader is in this case (and not very good by the looks of it).
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Last edited by Deathkillz; 2008-03-16 at 07:11.
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Old 2008-03-16, 07:01   Link #1055
Sorrow-K
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Ep 11

Ok, never mind irrational village rage. Never mind a main antagonist who's only motive is baseless hate. Never mind the fact that Takuma went completely OOC and most of the plot points in this episode were trumped up over-the-top melodramatic sequences played largely for shock factor. All of that stuff stretches suspension of disbelief but none of it breaks it completely. But Takuma? Blind the entire time? Nope, that's a pill I cannot swallow. It's not just unbelievable. It's impossible.

It's not just minor things either, ie things that could be construed in such a way that one could believe Takuma was just crazy and only thought he could see. Entire plot points rely on Takuma being able to see. Episode 2, Takuma finds Hayami's place across the bridge without anyone helping him. Episode 3, Takuma notices "Hotaru's" room. Ep 4, Takuma notices Hayami swimming at night. Episode 5, Takuma reacts to the drawing on the board before anyone has to explain it to him. Etc, etc. That's just the first four episodes of Takuma being able to see. I'm sure the list would be much bigger if one did a slightly more comprehensive search through all episodes than I did (I just flipped through the first few episodes, but still found a list that big). The first one is by far the biggest, but they all ignore how debilitating a handicap blindness is. It'd be very difficult for a blind person to pretend he was sighted for a long period of time... but to think he was sighted? I don't think so. Not Takuma anyway, not after what we were lead to believe he has seen. He's either completely crazy and the entire world around him is his own construct (which is an incredibly lazy cop out excuse for a plot twist) or the blindness thing does not work at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Spoiler:
Hmmm... let me think for a second. Err.. yes.

Script writers in anime don't deserve faith. They have to earn it first. I've seen too many terrible scripts get animated that are filled with plot holes to put my trust into an unproven script writer or director. And nothing in this anime has particularly convinced me that I should.
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Old 2008-03-16, 07:32   Link #1056
Jaden
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Yep yep, I can't bring myself to ignore all the plotholes and irrational deus ex machina that the anime is bringing out at an increasing rate. They really ruined it for me, it's just a downward spiral into the pits of madness now. H20 fails ^_^
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Old 2008-03-16, 07:41   Link #1057
SuperKnuckles
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I don't think even the viewers know the full story at this point. Maybe all the episodes leading up to ep 11 were exaggerations in Takuma's mind or something. I wouldn't put it to the show to be particular about these things anymore. That said, if Takuma really was being deluded and all, I think that's a pretty dark turn the show has made. I don't really expect them to wrap it up tying it all together. I can imagine it'd be incredible only if they can show exactly how Takuma got around being blind. Oh well.

PS- I don't exactly understand why people say it's bad plot device with Hirose's particular trauma in this case. Because that part in itself does make sense and he's basically broken both mentally and physically. Him acting all kind and approachable was part of what let him live on. I don't see all that as being out of character. Hayami was right in that it was all pent up inside him. I thought it'd happen earlier but I think it makes sense to have it happen near the end for dramatic effect. Also it makes perfect sense to me how all this is confusing Hirose. I doubt he's acting it out fully realizing what he's doing. He's being run by his emotions and I don't think that has to do with 'bad plot device' like some say it is.

As for the whole 'crime prevention' issue, I don't think it's unrealistic that heavy bullying can go unnoticed like that. It happens in the real world all the time. Just imagine the magnitude of the coverup if adults are involved too. That and until recently, Kohinata was willing to just accept the punishment. Even if there were child welfare services, they wouldn't be able to prove anything.

Last edited by SuperKnuckles; 2008-03-16 at 07:53.
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Old 2008-03-16, 07:51   Link #1058
Sorrow-K
Somehow I found out
 
 
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Too much ZOMG shock factor in this show. It's just like Myself; Yourself all over again. Believability is readily sacrificed for the sake of big impact plot twists that crumble under logical scrutiny. This is almost worse than that, though. They certainly rival each other as far as melodrama is concerned.
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Old 2008-03-16, 07:57   Link #1059
SuperKnuckles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Too much ZOMG shock factor in this show. It's just like Myself; Yourself all over again. Believability is readily sacrificed for the sake of big impact plot twists that crumble under logical scrutiny. This is almost worse than that, though. They certainly rival each other as far as melodrama is concerned.
I guess it bothers some people but I just can't see it that way. I really don't expect much in the way of realism of most shows, no matter how great they may be. H2O isn't great IMO but I think it has to live on with its melodrama. I think it's almost an oxymoron to berate it for being a melodrama. Though I agree that shows like this may be a bit harder to swallow due to there being a lot of specific strenuous circumstances including a lot of supernatural events that lead up to it unlike something like True Tears that at least give an illusion of a more realistic (though IMO, True Tears sorta teeters on being totally unrealistic with its social situation alone).
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Old 2008-03-16, 08:06   Link #1060
Sorrow-K
Somehow I found out
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
I guess it bothers some people but I just can't see it that way. I really don't expect much in the way of realism of most shows, no matter how great they may be. H2O isn't great IMO but I think it has to live on with its melodrama. I think it's almost an oxymoron to berate it for being a melodrama. Though I agree that shows like this may be a bit harder to swallow due to there being a lot of specific strenuous circumstances including a lot of supernatural events that lead up to it unlike something like True Tears that at least give an illusion of a more realistic (though IMO, True Tears sorta teeters on being totally unrealistic with its social situation alone).
Supernatural situations are fine provided the show sticks to the rules it's established. There's no issue with characters losing and regaining blindness periodically, because that's explained within the context of the show. But for a character to be both blind and seeing at the same time... well, that's just incredibly inconsistent and illogical.

As for the melodrama thing, personally I think it lessens the impact. If you push too many extremes as this show has, without properly explaining and developing everything, you tread dangerously close to making everything forced and blatant. That's the problem with this show. The drama is so forced and over-the-top that it's very difficult to swallow.
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