The Japanese and their over complicated stories

[Reno]

Ok... well this probably belongs in the General Discussion forum since it's not just about anime. But, yeah, anyone noticed how no Japanese stories are.... simple? I, like, for every anime, I've never seen a description for it that even comes CLOSE to describing the whole thing. There's always just SO much more to it, I think. And it's really clever.

Now, as I said, it's not just about anime. Video games, too. for example Metal Gear Solid. In my opinion, the best game ever.

Spoiler for if you haven't played the game yet:

I mean the first one could simply be about some sneaking on to a base with hios two objectives. But, no, there's just SO much hidden stuff you don't know much about till later, like the Foxdie injection and the Genome soldiers. And I love how it all just comes together and becomes really solid.

As for the second one.... don't even go there. I had to play through it AT LEAST ten times before I even understood the beginning. But.... maybe that was because I was simply too young.

[4Tran]

It just might be the kind of stories that you're exposed to. There's all sorts of simple stories in anime, but if you don't watch them very much, then you won't notice them as much. On the other hand, the Japanese stories that get to the West certainly seem to have more complicated than your average Hollywood blockbuster. The classic example for this would be "Rashômon". Then again, there are lots of complicated Hollywood stories as well.

[Ryougi Shiki]

I think it boils down to the same thing for games:

Nobody here in America actually would buy a "hard" game.

People here think FF7 is a hard game, or HL2.

In fact, if any one of these people played Touhou, they'd probably get their asses fried in the first stage.

Same thing with plots and stories in America: nobody really likes deep stories. It's gotten to the point when if you ask someone here what their favorite in-depth story on TV is, they'll spout "Lost" or "Heroes". Those are probably the most complicated things on American TV right now.

Yet they PALE in comparison to the story behing the Higurashi anime/games.

Basically, it's a combination of an eroding intellectual standard and efficiency in terms of economy.

[Vexx]

I think the original poster ought to start wondering why "American" tv, video, movies *are* so simply plotted rather than wonder why japanese fare is so "complicated" (when it isn't).

If he will examine European or Chinese films and such (even Canadian), he'll also find levels of complexity not seen enough in American fare.

I don't know whether its "nobody wants to think too hard" syndrome... or whether the average viewer has been successfully dumbed down over the years. Even the "top end" seems progressively less willing to be challenged anymore.

sidenote:
The same goes for MMOs.... the earlier ones actually required some work and thinking - and it was painful to die so you tried to avoid it. Nowadays they are nerfed to the point that one wonders it the whole game can be reduced to one banner screen that says "You Win!!!!" ( few probably remember when playing a dark elf in EQ was actually hard and difficult because most races wanted to kill you and getting out of your homeland was treacherous)

[cicido]

agree with all of the above, the most popular cartoon/anime of teens is probably some thing like family guy which is just so clever I can't even imagine where did they come up with that stuff

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Ryougi Shiki

I think it boils down to the same thing for games:

Nobody here in America actually would buy a "hard" game.

People here think FF7 is a hard game, or HL2.

In fact, if any one of these people played Touhou, they'd probably get their asses fried in the first stage.

That's pretty funny.

Cause one of the major stereotype of "youge-" (foreign games, usually American or European) among Japanese gamers is "stupidly hard".
American and Euro games are seen as rediculously and masochisticly difficult, and Japanese who are fond of it are seen as "hard core gamers".

[Ryougi Shiki]

Originally Posted by aohige

That's pretty funny.

Cause one of the major stereotype of "youge-" (foreign games, usually American or European) among Japanese gamers is "stupidly hard".
American and Euro games are seen as rediculously and masochisticly difficult, and Japanese who are fond of it are seen as "hard core gamers".

I don't know.

The entire Danmaku genre is harder than every single game I know of that isn't from Japan.

[WanderingKnight]

That's pretty funny.

Cause one of the major stereotype of "youge-" (foreign games, usually American or European) among Japanese gamers is "stupidly hard".
American and Euro games are seen as rediculously and masochisticly difficult, and Japanese who are fond of it are seen as "hard core gamers".

Yes, definitely. Though I'll take Japanese RPGs over Western RPGs any day, I have to admit they are easier. But probably because the focus is not on complicated gameplay (most Western RPGs have an overly complex system) but more on narration flow, character development and storytelling. American RPGs try to make you believe that you're living in a fantasy world, so they end up trying to make it as realistic as possible; Japanese RPGs just want to tell you a story.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by Reno

Ok... well this probably belongs in the General Discussion forum since it's not just about anime. But, yeah, anyone noticed how no Japanese stories are.... simple? I, like, for every anime, I've never seen a description for it that even comes CLOSE to describing the whole thing. There's always just SO much more to it, I think. And it's really clever.

Now, as I said, it's not just about anime. Video games, too. for example Metal Gear Solid. In my opinion, the best game ever.

Spoiler for if you haven't played the game yet:

I mean the first one could simply be about some sneaking on to a base with hios two objectives. But, no, there's just SO much hidden stuff you don't know much about till later, like the Foxdie injection and the Genome soldiers. And I love how it all just comes together and becomes really solid.

As for the second one.... don't even go there. I had to play through it AT LEAST ten times before I even understood the beginning. But.... maybe that was because I was simply too young.

They have too, pretty much every single idea have been thought of and have been used. You have to include very perplexing story lines to set off you creations now ^_^ ( or you can just create a abnormal situation)

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by aohige

That's pretty funny.

Cause one of the major stereotype of "youge-" (foreign games, usually American or European) among Japanese gamers is "stupidly hard".
American and Euro games are seen as rediculously and masochisticly difficult, and Japanese who are fond of it are seen as "hard core gamers".

Could you give any specific examples of such a game?

[Ryougi Shiki]

Originally Posted by Ziv

Could you give any specific examples of such a game?

Right, I think there are many Japanese games harder than, say, Bioshock.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Ryougi Shiki

Nobody here in America actually would buy a "hard" game.

I haven't been gaming anymore for years (minesweeper does not count ) but stuff like Maniac Mansion and Day of the Tentacle back in the days was certainly not easy. And the olde infocom stuff ...

[Reno]

Oh dang.... me and my lack of knowledge for.... the world.

Well sorry. I was just saying form what I already know. Heh I'm sure that there ARE some simple Japanese stories, but are there really American and European stories as complicated? The only one I can think if is The Wall by Pink Floyd.... but it's JUST not the same if you know what I mean.

And Ryougi Shiki, I didn't say the gameplay itself is hard, just da stories.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Yes, definitely. Though I'll take Japanese RPGs over Western RPGs any day, I have to admit they are easier. But probably because the focus is not on complicated gameplay (most Western RPGs have an overly complex system) but more on narration flow, character development and storytelling. American RPGs try to make you believe that you're living in a fantasy world, so they end up trying to make it as realistic as possible; Japanese RPGs just want to tell you a story.

I am of the opposite side, I'll gladly take a western RPGs over any jRPG. Especially as a nostalgic of the Might and Magic series, Lucas Arts point & click adventure games (aaaahh, Indiana Jones and The Fate of Atlantis). And the Fallout series as well as Planescape Torment has to be one of the most staggering gaming experiences I has ever experienced.
I'll also add System Shock 2 and Deus Ex if I want to count FPS trying to include RPG elements. Deus Ex is full of delicious takes on various conspiracy theories that can hold on its own without shame, when compared to MGS series.

but are there really American and European stories as complicated

I am not sure what do you have in mind when you say "complicated", but I'd suggest Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum" or any book by Tom Clancy.

[Matrim]

Er, which anime has a plot that is really complicated? The only examples that come to mind right now are Monster and Higurashi no Naku ni.

I, like, for every anime, I've never seen a description for it that even comes CLOSE to describing the whole thing.

Really? Isn't that mostly due to fear of spoilers and in order for the diescription to be relative brief, not because the story is incredibly complex?

but are there really American and European stories as complicated?

Are we talking about movies, games and music or books count, too? Because, if they count - hell, yeah! And there is also plenty of movies with complex plot, they are just not usually blockbusters (though some like Memento are quite well known).

[SeijiSensei]

Isn't a lot of the difference between Japanese and Western television programming due to the fact that the Japanese expect their audiences will follow a long-form, multi-episode program? American television programs are almost always episodic with little in the way of a longer plot. At best even in the highest-quality US shows like Homicide: Life on the Street or Picket Fences, episodes might refer back to earlier parts of the story or have some underlying themes, but most episodes still can be watched on a stand-alone basis.

Many anime productions don't conform at all to this model of programming. First, you have many programs with well-defined conclusions. No recent American series I can think of does this, in large part because you need a lot of episodes to support syndication, which is where the real profits are found. (Just as anime producers use network broadcasts as advertisements for DVD sales, US network television producers use the network run to build audiences that will watch repeats in syndication on cable or local stations.) I'm not sure I'd disagree with Matrim about how intrinsically complicated anime shows are, since very complicated shows probably won't succeed as mass entertainment in any culture. Still the long-form nature of many anime shows gives the writers and producers the space to develop more complex stories that don't need to be told entirely in one episode.

As for examples of "complicated" shows, I might list Evangelion, Noein, or Ergo Proxy, but in each of these cases I'd say the more complex material is really a gloss over fairly simple stories. You don't really need to understand the pseudo-science of Noein to appreciate it as an adventure, and the philosophical glitter of the other two is really just that, glitter. I don't think either of those shows is as deep as it pretends to be.

I think the more interesting question is why Japanese producers can expect their audiences to watch a continuing story for weeks at a time, but American producers don't have the same expectations. I don't think the answer lies in comparing the smarts or sophistication of the audiences in each society. I'd look to the organization of the television industries in the two countries for better explanations.

[Ryougi Shiki]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Isn't a lot of the difference between Japanese and Western television programming due to the fact that the Japanese expect their audiences will follow a long-form, multi-episode program? American television programs are almost always episodic with little in the way of a longer plot. At best even in the highest-quality US shows like Homicide: Life on the Street or Picket Fences, episodes might refer back to earlier parts of the story or have some underlying themes, but most episodes still can be watched on a stand-alone basis.

Many anime productions don't conform at all to this model of programming. First, you have many programs with well-defined conclusions. No recent American series I can think of does this, in large part because you need a lot of episodes to support syndication, which is where the real profits are found. (Just as anime producers use network broadcasts as advertisements for DVD sales, US network television producers use the network run to build audiences that will watch repeats in syndication on cable or local stations.) I'm not sure I'd disagree with Matrim about how intrinsically complicated anime shows are, since very complicated shows probably won't succeed as mass entertainment in any culture. Still the long-form nature of many anime shows gives the writers and producers the space to develop more complex stories that don't need to be told entirely in one episode.

As for examples of "complicated" shows, I might list Evangelion, Noein, or Ergo Proxy, but in each of these cases I'd say the more complex material is really a gloss over fairly simple stories. You don't really need to understand the pseudo-science of Noein to appreciate it as an adventure, and the philosophical glitter of the other two is really just that, glitter. I don't think either of those shows are as deep as they pretend to be.

Yes, very true. Evangelion doesn't actually have a complex story, it just has a shitload of meaningless 'christian symbolism' and weird imagery. Naming things after things in the Bible does not make a good story alone.

Anyway, Higurashi as an anime suffered a little bit, because the story is so insanely complicated; the anime could not POSSIBLY show all the backstory from the games, and therefore it lost a bit of luster.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Ziv

Could you give any specific examples of such a game?

RTS, FPS, Simulation (especially flight sims), and RPGs.

Yes, danmaku shooting games and some side-scrolling platform games are insanely hard, and they do adhere to a certain crowd of gamers.
But in general, youge....especially PC games, are seen as extremely hard.
Probably due to the fact that Japanese general public aren't used to those intensively multi-tasking games such as RTS and FPS, nor are they exposed to complicated RPG game designs. (Unlike, say, Dragon Quest and FF. People often compare complexity of Wizardry, Ultima, and Elder scroll series to simpleness of DQ and FF)
Although western gamers are pretty used to FPS by now, think about just how complex the navigation control of a standard FPS is, when you're used to just "moving character on a 2D plane with your directional keys".

Also, Japanese strategy games are traditionally turn-based Koei titles, similar in nature to playing a shogi, chess, or Go.
The fast-thinking quick reflex requiring strategy games such as RTS are very alien to the Japanese.
You remember the first time you played a C&C title or War/StarCraft online, right?
All those insanly quick multi-tasking can easily overload your brain in matter of minutes.

I'm a long-time RTS/FPS fan, so it's second nature to me. But majority of Japanese feel it's terribly hard to play.

[Reno]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Er, which anime has a plot that is really complicated? The only examples that come to mind right now are Monster and Higurashi no Naku ni.



Really? Isn't that mostly due to fear of spoilers and in order for the diescription to be relative brief, not because the story is incredibly complex?



Are we talking about movies, games and music or books count, too? Because, if they count - hell, yeah! And there is also plenty of movies with complex plot, they are just not usually blockbusters (though some like Memento are quite well known).

Heh yeah like I said in my first post it doesn't just apply to anime.

Hmm.... prehaps I ddin't explain it enough. Well, ok, i know descriptions can't give too many spoilers away, but, from what I've seen, they don't even have what are in the first episodes. As I've already said, there's just so much HIDDEN stuff. That' what I like, and that's what I mean when I say complicated.

[KholdStare]

And that's the thing. It's there for people who like complicated stories, even though I must admit, as an American I am iffy with series such as Higurashi and FLCL because I don't fully comprehend them (and the fact that I never rewatch anime to try to understand it). I fall between the category of wanting more plot than the average American TV shows and preferring less complication than Higurashi/FLCL. The average anime falls between these categories, so this is why I watch anime.