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Old 2011-08-18, 07:09   Link #41
ahelo
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Wow quite an old topic!

Now its definitely SHAFTfags vs Kyoanifags vs PAWorks. Tides have definitely change, these are the powerhouse studios. Well there is still your usual Sunrise peeps and Gainaxfanboys but those are Otakus of yesteryear.
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Old 2011-08-18, 09:30   Link #42
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Kyoto Animation. Hands down.
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Old 2011-08-18, 11:30   Link #43
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I think it is KyoAni and Shaft for now
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Old 2011-08-18, 13:36   Link #44
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KyoAni---> However the Shaft Build Order side has been gaining a lot of nuts since Kyoto Animation hasn't been relevant besides Disappearance, a single movie, as of late.

But if you dare criticize one of their shows, (applies to KyoAni more) prepare to be attacked with a timing push of cheesy arguments of being a "hater" (guess where I got my user title from), not understanding their genius, or that you must be retarded.

Or how a show is inherently flawless because it follows the source material; I don't ever think this is a valid defense and wouldn't even use it to justify a certain show's ending that I like...

Fucking cheesers. :[
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:00   Link #45
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I don't think Shaft fans are as bad as KyoAni fans. KyoAni fans will say everything Kyoani has ever produced is a masterpiece, where as most Shaft Fans will never say that about Shaft's output, Shaft has always been very hit and miss. They have some great series, and some terrible ones, and only the most foolish Shaft fans would consider everything Shaft to produce to be great.

That said, KyoAni is more consistent then shaft. So it is more reasonable to believe every KyoAni show is great, mostly because no KyoAni show is absolutely awful.
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:40   Link #46
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Can DEEN count as having a rabid anti-fanbase?
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:50   Link #47
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Yes, but rightly deserved so.
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Old 2011-08-18, 14:57   Link #48
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DonQuigleone is largely right, in my view.

KyoAni's fanbase is less open to criticism of something the studio produces than most other anime studio fans are, but it's also fair to say that KyoAni has fewer outright stinkers under its resume. I don't necessarily think that there's no stinkers whatsoever in KyoAni's resume, but even if one or more is there, it's very much the exception, not the rule.

So, circa Spring 2009 say, the KyoAni hype was largely (if not entirely) justified, I have to admit.

Since then, though, the studio has made some questionable decisions, and I don't think it should be considerred beyond reproach.
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Old 2011-08-18, 16:37   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
That said, KyoAni is more consistent then shaft. So it is more reasonable to believe every KyoAni show is great, mostly because no KyoAni show is absolutely awful.
Depends on who you talk to.

Munto - What the heck was this? Terrible!

Air - Standard good.

FMP: Fumoffu - Funny at times, but not every memorable. Comedy can grow old very fast in this series.

FMP: TSR - Good/Great

Kanon 2006 - Not bad, but has some major issues (1st and last arcs).

Haruhi 2006 - Great

Haruhi 2009 - Honest travesty beyond all travesties this E8.

Disappearance of Haruhi - Great

Clannad - Not in good territory, though moments of enjoyment can be found.

Clannad AS - Good

K-ON! - Varied fan reactions to this one. For me, it's for the garbage bin. I'm not a moe hater either.

K-ON!! - Ditto.

Nichijou - No no no no no....

For me, they have 5 out of 13 works I've seen of theirs that I consider "good." This is not the sign of consistency that many preach it to have. No animation quality alone does not guarantee consistency in story telling and execution.

I definitely think I'm more likely to like a SHAFT show than a KyoAni and I'm not exactly in love with SHAFT all around.

So no, I don't think they're more consistent than anyone. They do have hte most rabid fan base of the day though.
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Old 2011-08-18, 18:15   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Depends on who you talk to.

<snip>

For me, they have 5 out of 13 works I've seen of theirs that I consider "good." This is not the sign of consistency that many preach it to have. No animation quality alone does not guarantee consistency in story telling and execution.

I definitely think I'm more likely to like a SHAFT show than a KyoAni and I'm not exactly in love with SHAFT all around.

So no, I don't think they're more consistent than anyone. They do have hte most rabid fan base of the day though.
Well, even 5 out of 13 is a pretty good record. Most studios would be lucky to have a 1/10 success rate.

Furthermore while you may only have considered 5/13 "good" how many were downright terrible? I doubt many. Shaft has had a lot more that was downright completely awful and cringeworthy. KyoAni hasn't produced anything completely terrible, at worst they're a bit dull.

That's what I mean by them being more "consistent", their works are in a much narrower quality band then something produced by Shaft. So their stuff only varies between "good and mediocre" while for other studios it varies between "good and incredibly awful". KyoAni's lows aren't nearly as bad as other studio's lows, but their highs aren't particularly better then the highs of other companies.
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Old 2011-08-18, 18:37   Link #51
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Munto was terrible. Nichioujou was terrible. For me, both K-ON's were terrible. And then we have Haruhi 2009 which was terrible.

5/13 shows were good.

5/13 shows were terrible.

3/10 of their shows were mediocre.

Not a great record for me.

I find it the opposite for SHAFT. I usually at least find their stuff watachable even if it doesn't keep my attention in the end.
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Old 2011-08-18, 19:15   Link #52
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Ghibli. I was going to put KyoAni in my #1 slot, but then I remembered Ghibli. Doesn't help the Ghibli is popular and mainstream either.

KyoAni. There aren't many other studios that get the honor of being suggested to remake any series that doesn't live up to the expectations of its fans. There aren't many studios that could pull off E8 and still be well liked

SHAFT. Another polarizing studio. Personally find that its stuff hit/miss.

PAWorks. It'll get a huge rabid fanbase soon enough, not yet though.


On the topic of my opinions on what KyoAni has put out

Munto - okay. KyoAni isn't good at original works.
FMPF - Great.
FMPTSR - Great.
Air TV - Great. Pacing issues though.
Kanon 2006 - Awesome.
CLANNAD - Masterpiece 11/10.
CLANNAD ~AS~ - Best show of the 2000s decade by far imho.
K-On! - Good. Enjoyed nearly mainstream success I heard.
K-On!! - Like the first K-On.
Haruhi 2006 - Awesome.
Haruhi 2009 - Awesome, except Endless Eight. So much lost potential right there.
Haruhi Disappearance - Awesome.
L☆S - Awesome.
NIchijou - Not what I expected, but its very entertaining so far

I don't have much reason to not love KyoAni.
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Old 2011-08-18, 19:56   Link #53
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Ghibli. I was going to put KyoAni in my #1 slot, but then I remembered Ghibli. Doesn't help the Ghibli is popular and mainstream either.
I don't know, Ghibli's material is mainstream and not controversial. Miyazaki's talents as a director are not questioned. Don't think Ghibli fans have any reason to be vocal or agressive to other anime fans.

Success does breed contempt, but mainly when people feel it's undeserved credit. Kyoani plays safe, produces OVA quality animation in TV shows, based on solid source material. Creating a good adaption is not an easy task but it's very different from making an original production. Few fans can even name a Kyoani director. Fanboys and haters tend to go overboard on either side of the debate so imo Kyoani has both the most rabid fanbase and anti fanbase (both need each other, it's a form of love )

Something similar is now happening to Shaft. Bakemonogatari and Madoka have put Shaft and Shinbo in the spotlight and this success is now polarizing fans. The things that annoy haters are different than those of Kyoani, for Shaft I would say it's low animation quality, and style over substance, but the principle is the same.
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Old 2011-08-18, 21:47   Link #54
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Munto was terrible. Nichioujou was terrible. For me, both K-ON's were terrible. And then we have Haruhi 2009 which was terrible.
You have a strange idea of what contitutes "terrible". Shukufuku no campanella, that's terrible. Watch the first episode of that if you want to know how truly terrible Anime can be. You're living in a blessed world if you think those shows are the bottom of the Anime barrel. At least all of KyoAni's lesser works are always technically competent. Being nice to look at makes an Anime automatically "mediocre" in my book.

Also, you have to seperate it into:

a) what is actually awful from an impartial perspective
b) what's simply not to your taste.

So I didn't like K-on much at all, but I wouldn't argue that it's awful, more that I dislike Moéblob anime. K-On was pretty successful over all, so I'm hesitant to call it "terrible", it's very rare for a truly terrible anime to have any kind of success. The fact it has any kind of success means it that it can't be really awful. Though there are plenty of very successful anime that are "mediocre".

You're also living in a blessed world if you think 5/13 is a bad success rate for a company. For me a lot of my favourite studios have only a 1/10 success rate, but their successes make up for their losses.

And to go back to Shaft vs. KyoAni, if you compare the two purely on a technical animation level, KyoAni shows far higher consistency, whereas Shaft is highly known for having all kinds of off-model and incomplete animation, that often ends out getting touched up for DVD (Bakemonogatari is a good example). Meanwhile KyoAni has highly detailed and fluid movement with very few animation errors at all (so far as I'm aware). Even in their less detailed works (like lucky star) there's usually a lot of details. For instance in pretty much all KyoAni stuff all the background characters are moving independently and not in any kind of loops. If you've watched a lot of Anime you'll know that's pretty rare and that most Anime productions cut costs by just holding background characters static, or in some kind of loop.

I've never watched any KyoAni works that looked bad (though I've never watched Munto), some are not as good as others, K-On and Lucky Star aren't as detailed as their other efforts, Nichijou is pretty detailed though.
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Old 2011-08-18, 22:03   Link #55
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On the internets, Kyoani hands down.

If you're talking about my own backyard (Australia) then Gainax. Here, Evangelion fanbase/hype exceeds all Kyoani shows put together. The release of Rebuild 1.0 and 2.0 only extended the already massive fanbase. Not to mention TTGL is also very big here, and FLCL is also well received. Panty and Stocking is reasonably popular too.

Sunrise is pretty close too. Gundam, Code Geass, Cowboy Bebop and now Tiger and Bunny are very popular here too.
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Old 2011-08-18, 22:26   Link #56
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Kyoto Animation. Hands down.
I thought the same thing right when I saw this thread
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Old 2011-08-19, 00:54   Link #57
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I remember a lot of Gainax "fans" lamenting the studio's downfall with PSwG even before the damn thing released any clips. Lots of supposedly old school fans also hating on the remake of Eva.
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Old 2011-08-19, 01:03   Link #58
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
You have a strange idea of what contitutes "terrible". Shukufuku no campanella, that's terrible. Watch the first episode of that if you want to know how truly terrible Anime can be. You're living in a blessed world if you think those shows are the bottom of the Anime barrel. At least all of KyoAni's lesser works are always technically competent. Being nice to look at makes an Anime automatically "mediocre" in my book.
Oh there's certainly worst animes, but that's even a lower form of trash (Like Hidan no Aria/Dragonaut/etc.). This is below average garbage I'm talking about here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Also, you have to seperate it into:

a) what is actually awful from an impartial perspective
b) what's simply not to your taste.

So I didn't like K-on much at all, but I wouldn't argue that it's awful, more that I dislike Moéblob anime. K-On was pretty successful over all, so I'm hesitant to call it "terrible", it's very rare for a truly terrible anime to have any kind of success. The fact it has any kind of success means it that it can't be really awful. Though there are plenty of very successful anime that are "mediocre".
You might not understand how I evaluate anime, but I completely impartial on such matters. I know K-ON! was a moe show, and I personally think it failed as not only a moe show, but it was also false advertisement of a show truly about music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
You're also living in a blessed world if you think 5/13 is a bad success rate for a company. For me a lot of my favourite studios have only a 1/10 success rate, but their successes make up for their losses.
.
My only point was, that they're nothing special. There's plenty of other studios that match them overall and surpass them as well.
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Old 2011-08-19, 01:16   Link #59
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KyoAni has three rabid fan grouping (each with sub_groups based on series grouping suck as Key or SoL groups). These are the supports, the haters, and the trollers. The trollers can like or dislike, but enjoy getting on either of the other two rabid fanbases skins.
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Old 2011-08-19, 08:39   Link #60
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I have grown out of this phase since Munto TV and Endless Eight. Even if they redeemed somewhat with Disappearance, I can't help but be frustrated with their choice of sources to animate because having seen Clannad S1 & S2, Disappearance, FMP: TSR and Haruhi S1, I know they can do much more than what they are doing atm. As a result I am much more cautious with them.
Also I can't help but notice that the rabidness have quieted down a bit, or maybe it is just me.
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