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Old 2007-10-24, 15:39   Link #221
khryoleoz
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
Well find me a human with similar stats/abilities as Teresa I don't think you can use normal human comparisons imo. Anyways it's going to go in circles. *clubs Fenrir* ok over.
I think this one makes for a good candidate.

http://sonryu.homestead.com/files/be...guts_1024_.jpg
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Old 2007-10-24, 15:44   Link #222
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
I think this one makes for a good candidate.

http://sonryu.homestead.com/files/be...guts_1024_.jpg

Oh hell no. He would of gotten owned like Raki.
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Old 2007-10-24, 15:47   Link #223
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
Oh hell no. He would of gotten owned like Raki.
Grrr...you're gonna make me hate you.

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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Yeah, when Priscilla simply walked up, with her armored boots no less, right behind Teresa, well within striking distance.
Then that means that Priscilla will be making noise as she's moving towards Teresa. Teresa can at least hear last I remember.

Quote:
As proven by Teresa's death, she does not have immaculate reaction time
Doesn't need to be immaculate, just sufficient. Priscilla's sneak attack wouldn't be immaculate either.

Quote:
and I quote Teresa;

"There was another one? But I did not sense her aura at all!"
That's right. She says her aura, as she is accustomed to detecting Claymores by their yoki. Her physical presence is revealed by other things that can be detected by even normal senses.

Quote:
This is quite the display of shock from someone who "could have seen it coming" when she clearly states she did not.
I'd be shocked too if I were a good yoki reader and came across one who I couldn't read at all. But that's not enough for me to accept that she couldn't see, smell or hear her coming.



Quote:
The problem here is the nature of the Quick-Sword requires extra effort to control it, while the Windcutter allows that control to be natural, so the higher precision is naturally a trait of the Windcutter, and since the Quick-Sword focuses on speed more then striking power, then the Windcutter comes out ahead in this department as well.
Ah. Now I see. Yes, Windcutter's advantage is precision by the very nature of Quicksword requiring so much more to control it. But I still give the power to Quicksword.
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Old 2007-10-24, 15:55   Link #224
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
Then that means that Priscilla will be making noise as she's moving towards Teresa. Teresa can at least hear last I remember.
Last I checked Claymores dont have super human hearing, sight, smell. Unless of course their name is Miata.

Being able to hear someone sneaking up behind you requires a super-human sense of hearing if you are as distracted as Teresa was.

Quote:
Doesn't need to be immaculate, just sufficient. Priscilla's sneak attack wouldn't be immaculate either.
Priscilla's movement only had to be suffecient for her sneak attack to be sucessful, but Teresa would require more then that to avoid that, which is why sneak attacks are a good thing.

Quote:
That's right. She says her aura, as she is accustomed to detecting Claymores by their yoki. Her physical presence is revealed by other things that can be detected by even normal senses.
Thats the point, Teresa is not accustomed to fighting an opponent who can erase her Yoki, and thus would not expect such an opponent to sneak up on her.


Quote:
I'd be shocked too if I were a good yoki reader and came across one who I couldn't read at all. But that's not enough for me to accept that she couldn't see, smell or hear her coming.
See? Teresa was looking somewhere else, specifically right at the building she just came out of, with 3 top ranked Claymores after her head.

Smell? we are talking about Teresa and not Miata right?

Hear? Same as see, she was focusing on the 3 biggest threats she could detect, and under normal circumstances it would be the best thing to do, but it put her at a disadvantage this time.


Quote:
Ah. Now I see. Yes, Windcutter's advantage is precision by the very nature of Quicksword requiring so much more to control it. But I still give the power to Quicksword.
Heh, possibly, but it is really up in the air at this point.

-----

As for Guts, personally I would think he could own most of the lower AB we have run across in the series, and maybe some of the higher ones, that guy is crazy.
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Old 2007-10-24, 16:05   Link #225
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
Grrr...you're gonna make me hate you.

The truth is suppose to hurt! He doesn't have yoki and in the Claymore world no yoki = no use. I think he can take normal yomas at most. Claymores + ABs = no . I havent read past the hentai anime ending so I dont know how much stronger he gets.
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Old 2007-10-24, 16:07   Link #226
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Good grief...is this some way to keep Teresa on the 'untouchable' pedastal here? For all accounts, who said that Priscilla even MOVED once the operation started? Of course Priscilla wouldn't make a sound IF she didn't have to move in the first place. Smell? Who's smelling what when they're leaping from a building falling around them? Too much Naruto ...
From what I can tell, all she did was just stand there, monitoring the fight inside and waited until Teresa jumped out and landed before she spoke to her.

As for Guts, his main thing would be his unpredictable fighting style...and the youma's/AB's overconfidence. Those two things make the odds in favor of Guts in a battle. Also him having a sword comparatively superior to their claymores also helps. Oh yeah, and the crossbolt arm helps too.
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Old 2007-10-24, 16:09   Link #227
khryoleoz
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Last I checked Claymores dont have super human hearing, sight, smell. Unless of course their name is Miata.

See? Teresa was looking somewhere else, specifically right at the building she just came out of, with 3 top ranked Claymores after her head.

Smell? we are talking about Teresa and not Miata right?
Quote:
Being able to hear someone sneaking up behind you requires a super-human sense of hearing if you are as distracted as Teresa was.
Don't need super senses to hear someone running towards you. Last I remember also, Teresa escaped from the three distracting her. I'm assuming Priscilla emitted some sort of odor that normal smelling can pick up.


Quote:
Priscilla's movement only had to be suffecient for her sneak attack to be sucessful, but Teresa would require more then that to avoid that, which is why sneak attacks are a good thing.
That's why I go back to her superior reflexes.


Quote:
As for Guts, personally I would think he could own most of the lower AB we have run across in the series, and maybe some of the higher ones, that guy is crazy.
Just lower ABs? Now way. I'm a professing blind Guts fanboy. Guts will kill even Priscilla!

Last edited by khryoleoz; 2007-10-24 at 19:13.
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Old 2007-10-24, 16:11   Link #228
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
The truth is suppose to hurt! He doesn't have yoki and in the Claymore world no yoki = no use. I think he can take normal yomas at most. Claymores + ABs = no . I havent read past the hentai anime ending so I dont know how much stronger he gets.
Let me put it this way, Guts could definatly take Dauf now. Don't think he could beat Rigaldo though.


Edit: To khryoleoz:

Quote:
Don't need super senses to hear someone running towards you. Last I remember also, Teresa escaped from the three distracting her. I'm assuming Priscilla emitted some sort of odor that normal smelling can pick up.
The point is, Priscilla simply walked up to her, and the last thing Teresa would expect, or notice would be someone walking (or running) nearby, it could well be a human getting the hell out of there.

Smelling Priscilla?..... ummm...do I really have to counter that?

Fine I will; last I checked Claymores (except for Miata) lack super-human senses (other then sight), and smelling another person just standing there, or coming at you, ranks about impossible for anyone.

I doubt Priscilla smelled of sewer water or some other such strong odor either.

Quote:
That's why I go back to her superior reflexes.
They sure did not save her when Priscilla finally killed her huh?

Quote:
Just lower ABs? Now way. I'm a professing blind Guts fanboy. Guts will kill even Priscilla!
I gave him Dauf's head, but that is about as far as I am willing to go till he kills Griffith.
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Last edited by Fenrir_valindri; 2007-10-24 at 16:22.
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Old 2007-10-24, 17:29   Link #229
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Smelling Priscilla?..... ummm...do I really have to counter that?

Fine I will; last I checked Claymores (except for Miata) lack super-human senses (other then sight), and smelling another person just standing there, or coming at you, ranks about impossible for anyone.

I doubt Priscilla smelled of sewer water or some other such strong odor either.
Clare states in the very first chapter that Raki smells of yoma so all she had to do was follow him to find the yoma.

Also while it is possible that it is something unique to Clare, in the second chapter Rubel mentions that her body produces the smell of blood and that she can't wash it away.


There is also chapter 13, where Teresa jumps and pushes Clare out of the way when a bandit drops down on them from the trees. Then again in chapter 15 Teresa confronts one of the bandits and states that she sensed him following them.
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Old 2007-10-24, 17:46   Link #230
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if you remember his wound was infected in that chapter so it reeked of infection somethin if you've never smelled it is rather nose turning trust me it can burn them hairs quick. don't need a super nose for that just a little sensative
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Old 2007-10-24, 18:35   Link #231
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Mord View Post
Clare states in the very first chapter that Raki smells of yoma so all she had to do was follow him to find the yoma.

Also while it is possible that it is something unique to Clare, in the second chapter Rubel mentions that her body produces the smell of blood and that she can't wash it away.
You bring up a good point about the unique smell of Yoma, but I doubt Teresa would notice something like that in the midst of a battle with 3 other Claymores, especially from an opponent she cannot detect.


Quote:
There is also chapter 13, where Teresa jumps and pushes Clare out of the way when a bandit drops down on them from the trees. Then again in chapter 15 Teresa confronts one of the bandits and states that she sensed him following them.
Notice this is during night time and Teresa is not in the middle of a fight, it is easy enough to tell when someone is following you, especially when he has a gaping wound and probably not keeping himself well concealed.
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Old 2007-10-24, 20:01   Link #232
khryoleoz
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
The point is, Priscilla simply walked up to her, and the last thing Teresa would expect, or notice would be someone walking (or running) nearby, it could well be a human getting the hell out of there.
I think you've perceived the events inaccurately here. Teresa wasn't surprised because someone was there whose "presence" she didn't detect. Let's examine her words carefully.

1) "There was another one?" What she means by "another one" is another Claymore. She didn't say "There was someone there?". That is what would reveal that Teresa was completely oblivious to the fact of Priscilla taking up a certain space at a certain time.

2) "But I didn't sense her aura at all." Obviously, she refers to a complete lack of yoki emission from Priscilla.

In short, she was surprised that there was a Claymore there whom she noticed but whose yoki she didn't pick up. Nothing in that makes explicit that Teresa simply didn't know that Priscilla was there. So let's put that line of reasoning to rest already.


Quote:
They sure did not save her when Priscilla finally killed her huh?
We've been over this. She was unguarded and was duped to believing the battle was over. Furthermore, Priscilla was still at 80+% yoki output and Teresa at 0%. At this disparity, Priscilla undeniably overpowers Teresa and the position Teresa put herself in sealed her fate.

Quote:
I gave him Dauf's head, but that is about as far as I am willing to go till he kills Griffith.
Which he will in time. So I'll just preemptively award Guts that status.

Also, thanks Mord for the smelling idea.
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Old 2007-10-24, 20:33   Link #233
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
I think you've perceived the events inaccurately here. Teresa wasn't surprised because someone was there whose "presence" she didn't detect. Let's examine her words carefully.

1) "There was another one?" What she means by "another one" is another Claymore. She didn't say "There was someone there?". That is what would reveal that Teresa was completely oblivious to the fact of Priscilla taking up a certain space at a certain time.
This could also be a translation error, as the anime refers to it as " I didn't even sense her presence." Not sure if this is a difference in anime/manga or a simple translation error on the part of ViZ.


Quote:
2) "But I didn't sense her aura at all." Obviously, she refers to a complete lack of yoki emission from Priscilla.
In admitting this Teresa has effectivly stated she was not prepared for an attack from Priscilla.

Quote:
In short, she was surprised that there was a Claymore there whom she noticed but whose yoki she didn't pick up. Nothing in that makes explicit that Teresa simply didn't know that Priscilla was there. So let's put that line of reasoning to rest already.
If she did not realize it was a Claymore standing next to her, it is effectivly the same as saying there was no one there.

Let us assume that Teresa knew that someone was their, she still would not have expected the Yoki-less individual to attack with the strength and speed of a high ranking Claymore at point-blank range.

Not to mention Teresa herself stated she would have gotten injured if Priscilla had attacked at that moment.

Quote:
We've been over this. She was unguarded and was duped to believing the battle was over. Furthermore, Priscilla was still at 80+% yoki output and Teresa at 0%. At this disparity, Priscilla undeniably overpowers Teresa and the position Teresa put herself in sealed her fate.
She was also staring directly at Priscilla, and the power-up of Priscilla simply takes the place of the suprise factor Priscilla had going for her before the fight started.

Teresa was not expecting either attack, thus the result would have been the same in both cases, Teresa was caught off guard and got injured/died.

Quote:
Which he will in time. So I'll just preemptively award Guts that status.
You assume much, but your probably right in this case

Quote:
Also, thanks Mord for the smelling idea.
It was indeed an interesting point, but I doubt it played a part in Teresa noticing Priscilla.
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Old 2007-10-24, 22:31   Link #234
Sassarai
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Oh man we should just agree to disagree and move onto another assumption debate. I think we covered pretty much everything about that scene and no one is going to bring anymore new info. Im sure we wont persuade each other as well. Unless someone have contact with the mangka and asked him personally -_-.
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Old 2007-10-24, 23:20   Link #235
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This discussion is rapidly turning into fanboy defense of Theresa.

My take is, despite all her stats, Theresa normal senses is just like any other Claymores but not as keen as current no 4, Miata. Miata is in the top 5 for one reason that is her acute 5 normal senses. However all Claymore normal senses is above and beyond human ones that is for sure.

So in skirmish, Priscillia able to sneak behind a very distracted Theresa's back is given since Priscillia herself are no slob compared to Theresa. I don't see what is argument here is all about.
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Old 2007-10-24, 23:35   Link #236
Sassarai
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Too bad I wouldn't label myself a fanboy of Teresa ( Galatea's more of my char type). Just because ppl disagree with you dont' label them a fanboy and you havent said anything that fenrir hasn't said already. Nothing solid as far as I see it. Teresa's back was given to one of the other hunters while she was distracted before she jumped down from the window. Just because her back was given doesnt mean instant kill. Do you even realize Prissy wasn't even that close to her when she landed. Whether she could of gotten closer without Teresa noticing is up to your interpretation.

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-25 at 00:20.
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Old 2007-10-25, 00:44   Link #237
khryoleoz
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
In admitting this Teresa has effectivly stated she was not prepared for an attack from Priscilla.
I'm not arguing this. I'm arguing that the mission would have succeded then and there because you say Teresa can't do anything about Priscilla had she stuck to the plan. First, Teresa escaped her distraction then ended up at a location where Priscilla still had to close some distance in order to land her attack. So it doesn't matter that Teresa couldn't detect her yoki. She would just hear someone charging her at great speed. If you want to retreat to Teresa not having Maita's senses, fine. While Maita's senses are above the average Claymore, a Claymore's senses are above an average human. She needed only that much to detect that something with hostile intent was coming her way. Priscilla would have been better off if she tip-toed quietly since her yoki is indetectible anyway.



Quote:
If she did not realize it was a Claymore standing next to her, it is effectivly the same as saying there was no one there.
Why? The difference between something being there and nothing being there is quite significant.

Quote:
Let us assume that Teresa knew that someone was their, she still would not have expected the Yoki-less individual to attack with the strength and speed of a high ranking Claymore at point-blank range.
First it was not at point blank range. If Priscilla were to attack, the distance she'd have to close would produce other disturbances that running in full armor would. So the yoki-hiding trick is rendered useless. Teresa would be alerted to the incoming hostile threat and would just react with the same superior speed and reflexes she used to kick her ass in the first place.

Quote:
Not to mention Teresa herself stated she would have gotten injured if Priscilla had attacked at that moment.
How bad? Why didn't she admit to Priscilla being able to kill her? Maybe because Teresa herself knew better or at least believed otherwise?



Quote:
She was also staring directly at Priscilla, and the power-up of Priscilla simply takes the place of the suprise factor Priscilla had going for her before the fight started.
I don't follow your logic. You earlier equate something being there as good as nothing being there, which is a logical falsehood. Here, you do the same by saying two different scenarios are the same. Priscilla's power-up combined with Teresa's false sense of security made all the difference.

Quote:
Teresa was not expecting either attack, thus the result would have been the same in both cases, Teresa was caught off guard and got injured/died.
Here, Priscilla WAS at point blank range. Teresa thought the battle was over. Notice that Priscilla's first move wasn't to behead Teresa, but to neutralize her chief defenses, her fighting arms. So the earlier scenario where the surprise was only in that she detected a Claymore whose Claymore aura she couldn't feel was quite unlike this one. A lot more things happened here that Teresa's mind had to process, not just surprising but stunning her, resulting in a delay in reaction that was fatal.



Quote:
You assume much, but your probably right in this case
Of course I am. Guts is Guts.



Quote:
It was indeed an interesting point, but I doubt it played a part in Teresa noticing Priscilla.
Maybe not so much, unless Priscilla didn't bathe the day before when she killed a legion of yoma.
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Old 2007-10-25, 00:45   Link #238
Fenrir_valindri
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Too bad I wouldn't label myself a fanboy of Teresa ( Galatea's more of my char type). Just because ppl disagree with you dont' label them a fanboy and you havent said anything that fenrir hasn't said already. Nothing solid as far as I see it. Teresa's back was given to one of the other hunters while she was distracted before she jumped down from the window. Just because her back was given doesnt mean instant kill. Do you even realize Prissy wasn't even that close to her when she landed. Whether she could of gotten closer without Teresa noticing is up to your interpretation.
My final word on it is this;

Priscilla is not the same as the other warriors, because Teresa could not detect her like she did Noel, or any of the others, thus Teresa would not have been able to see her coming as she is accustomed too (sensing Yoki).

The fact that Priscilla held her own against Teresa (who going by the majority standards was superior to Priscilla) for a lengthy amount of time also proves Teresa's overreliance on Yoki-sensing.

Priscilla also was abscent from the area next to Teresa when she landed, and one-two panels later she was calmly standing their, within striking distance of Teresa.

A warrior of Priscilla's calibur could have quite easily closed that distance and put her 2m long blade were it hurts, even if not fatal it would at least cause significant injury.

Teresa herself also admitted that she probably would have been struck.

But that is all I have to say on the topic.

-------------------------------

My vote for the next topic isssssssssssssss:

Miata vs Galatea

In honor of the upcoming chapter of course.

In one corner we have the former #3 Galatea!

Upside:

Her greatest talent is manipulating Yoki, and as shown by her stats, she is an all around exceptional warrior.

She also has alot of power in her Yoki, which she claims increases her strength by the greatest factor of all 47 warriors of her generation.

Not only that, she has not been seen in action for 7 years, so it is anyones guess how much she has grown, in both skill and power.

Downsides: Her current opponent is on Yoki supression pills, which eliminates her greatest ability, Yoki manipulation.

She is also probably not expecting an attack, especially from such a powerful opponent that she cannot even detect.

She herself cannot afford to use Yoki, as doing so will make her presence detectable by anyone who is close enough to sense her, the Organization, Abyssal Ones, you name it.

------------------------------------

In the other corner we have current #4 Miata!

Upside:

Said to have the capabilities to compete for the #1 spot, Miata is a true powerhouse.

We have seen her tear Yoma apart with her bare hands and brutalize Awakened Beings without effort, alone. Only Teresa of the faint smile has been witnessed doing such an act, which only enchances this child's status.

She also has a powerful asset in her Enchanced Senses, including her sixth sense, which allows her to fight like no other Claymore before her, purely on instinct, without the worries of distracting thoughts.

She has the arguably most powerful ability any Claymore has possesed so far in the series.

She is a being of instinct, and her instincts serve her well.

Downsides:

Miata is on Yoki-Supression pills, which leaves her unable to use her undoubtadly immense Yoki reserves, which in the long run may be a good thing as this also gives her an advantage and takes away from the risk of her awakening.

Miata is in the care of an extremely weak tag-along in the form of current #47 Clarice, who she cares a great deal for, this is a huge handicap for this immenesely powerful warrior, as Clarice offers almost no benefits other then keeping Miata stable.

The fight is also taking place in a populated town, which can be a major problem for the mentally unstable and socially inept warrior.

Did I mention Miata is mentally unstable?

Thoughts? Opinions?
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Old 2007-10-25, 01:08   Link #239
khryoleoz
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The fact that Priscilla held her own against Teresa (who going by the majority standards was superior to Priscilla) for a lengthy amount of time also proves Teresa's overreliance on Yoki-sensing.
That's not what happened. Priscilla couldn't hold her own as Teresa demonstrated to her, and much to her chagrin. Teresa instead did two things: 1) conserve power and 2) gauge Priscilla's present abilities.

Quote:
Priscilla also was abscent from the area next to Teresa when she landed, and one-two panels later she was calmly standing their, within striking distance of Teresa.
Here's a thought. She couldn't go through with the plan because Teresa was carrying Clare, and attacking and succeeding (which I doubt would have been fatal to Teresa) would endanger Clare. As Priscilla's so scared gutless to die and holds to high esteem the values of her Organization, she wouldn't or couldn't risk breaking the cardinal rule.

Quote:
A warrior of Priscilla's calibur could have quite easily closed that distance and put her 2m long blade were it hurts, even if not fatal it would at least cause significant injury.
And a warrior of Teresa's calibur who outclasses Priscilla in all other aspects would have easily been hurt or killed? Let's give the dead girl a break shall we.
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Old 2007-10-25, 01:51   Link #240
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Alright to the subject of change. If we do asume that is it Galata coming I wouldn't asume a fight would break out. If I am to take a mere guess on it I would asume that Galatea would do better to flee, however since her opponent is on yoki supressing pills that means that she won't know what's coming...untill it comes that is.

Thus we should asume that Miata and Clarice runs into Galata, and not wise worse. Alright the stage is set. Miata will be the first to strike, maybe out of concern for Clarice. Since she has no yoki reserve how will you asume that she's going to do battle?
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