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Old 2010-01-06, 18:11   Link #2741
irvinethearcher
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Well, we have seen her in that sparring fight against clare. In this fight both were even. This was before raphaella. A better estimation we probably won't get except they fight against each other to the death.

MichaelAngelo did a good job with his estimation about clare's QS which should have surpassed even irene's because clare was able to beat rafaella. Rafaella was to important to send her on a suicide mission for the org, therefore she probably was strong enough to beat onearmed irene even without yoki release.
The flaw in MichaelAngelo's estimation lies in the fact that this wasn't a real fight. It was only in a virtual Reality and everyone who has watched the matrix knows what that means.
So i fear that those who support miria will sooner or later exploit that weakness.
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Old 2010-01-07, 14:16   Link #2742
MichaelAngelo
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Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
The flaw in MichaelAngelo's estimation lies in the fact that this wasn't a real fight. It was only in a virtual Reality and everyone who has watched the matrix knows what that means.
So i fear that those who support miria will sooner or later exploit that weakness.
Even if what lied was an estimation and virtual reality, it was clear based on the databook and irene's statement that Rafaela would have won regardless of whether Irene had both or one arm with her. That's my belief, hehe.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:08   Link #2743
irvinethearcher
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But would have clare won against rafaella in an normal combat situation in reality?
It seems clear to me that rafaella should have been capable of killing irene with one arm and no yoki release. Otherwise the org wouldn't have let her track irene down.
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Old 2010-01-07, 17:10   Link #2744
MichaelAngelo
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Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
But would have clare won against rafaella in an normal combat situation in reality?
It seems clear to me that rafaella should have been capable of killing irene with one arm and no yoki release. Otherwise the org wouldn't have let her track irene down.
I am not so sure about that. But then I guess she must have won because the battlefield was sort of a conjecture of Clare-Rafaella dimension. If Clare had the superior mental power then she was the winner. If Rafella had the mental advantage then she must have won. The question there is how actual was the combat? Rafaella said that the damage there was equivalent to damage in the real self and yet we saw that she cut Clare's head but Clare revived in a span of time. What did this mean? And Cynthia actually felt Clare's yoki which meant that whether it was a mental battle or not, Clare did the QS and bested Rafaela.
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Old 2010-01-07, 18:07   Link #2745
irvinethearcher
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So under the assumption that the battle was like a real one clare's QS is now superior to irene's
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Old 2010-01-08, 09:02   Link #2746
MichaelAngelo
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Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
So under the assumption that the battle was like a real one clare's QS is now superior to irene's
^^That might how the scene was fated to be concluded- to make Clare a monster!!!
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Old 2010-02-02, 22:28   Link #2747
Stream
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I'd like to build off of my point on page 136 about Clare being a defensive type and note that as she awakened she just regenerated her entire shoulder and part of her missing side. She even seemed to be regenerating right as she declared that her sole purpose for living was to kill Priscilla. Contrast page 22 and 25 of Chapter 100.

Last edited by Stream; 2010-02-18 at 15:47. Reason: I meant page 22, not 23.
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Old 2010-02-04, 06:32   Link #2748
MichaelAngelo
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
I'd like to build off of my point on page 136 about Clare being a defensive type and note that as she awakened she just regenerated her entire shoulder and part of her missing side. She even seemed to be regenerating right as she declared that her sole purpose for living was to kill Priscilla. Contrast page 23 and 25 of Chapter 100.
I don't see the point. Claymores can regenerate while awakening. Clare's awakened body is not as humongous as Duph's or Rigardo's; in fact it was only like human size, and no Claymore or AB there commented about Clare's yoki size because it wasn't that enormous; it had more quality, thus allowing only potentially enough yoki to heal her injuries. In Chapter 100, she probably had rafela's healing abilities as Rafaela was a defensive warrior.
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Old 2010-02-04, 11:23   Link #2749
irvinethearcher
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
I'd like to build off of my point on page 136 about Clare being a defensive type and note that as she awakened she just regenerated her entire shoulder and part of her missing side. She even seemed to be regenerating right as she declared that her sole purpose for living was to kill Priscilla. Contrast page 23 and 25 of Chapter 100.
She did it during the awakening and during releasing yoki probably beyond 80%. In this case the normal laws of a claymore aren't valid anymore i think.
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Old 2010-02-18, 16:02   Link #2750
Stream
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Rafaela was mentioned to be an offensive type in the OP and Page 8 of Chapter 64.

Clare seems to have regenerated between pages 22 and 25 too (pre-awakening), but it is an ambiguous case. Still, even ABs aren't capable of instantaneous regeneration afaict. Except for Priscilla, that is, but even that was described not as regeneration but as releasing the power she's been holding back.
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Old 2010-02-19, 13:21   Link #2751
Ryus
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Rafaela was mentioned to be an offensive type in the OP and Page 8 of Chapter 64.

Clare seems to have regenerated between pages 22 and 25 too (pre-awakening), but it is an ambiguous case. Still, even ABs aren't capable of instantaneous regeneration afaict. Except for Priscilla, that is, but even that was described not as regeneration but as releasing the power she's been holding back.
Why can no one think of a time when Clare regenerated... I mean come on. Ophelia bit a chunk out of her left arm and the wound was gone by the end of the battle. Sure it was a minor wound but it was an example of an offensive warrior regenerating. Plus Clare has been stabbed in the chest half a dozen times and had a big hole punched through her gut. Now it's true she's yet to regenerate a full limb but her current gut wound isn't a limb... so she should be fine. Assuming Priscilla doesn't continue to whip the floor with her face. However even if Clare is too weak to do it if someone can get her to Galatea and/or Galatea get to her than Clare should be fine. Since after all if Yuma can learn yoki link healing by witnessing it done on her once, than Galatea should be an expert at it after having the same done to her once... so technically the ghosts don't need Cynthia to be their medic any more.

Plus, your right, Raphaela was mentioned by Rubel to be an offensive type. Then he stated that if she had released her power she should have been able to generate her lost eye.

Spoiler for Off topic but still claymore related:


As to no ABs regenerating in battle, minus Priscilla, (whether instant or just fast) that is a false statement. Both Riful and Isley regenerated. Riful lost half her head and it was back to normal in a few panels and Isley was growing his arm back when the AFs ripped it off again. Isley was clearly at the end of his ropes and yet her found the strength for one last regeneration. Plus yet us not forget Duaf regrowing a limb instantly when Riful was about to be killed by Alicia. Now both Riful and Isley are suspect offensive types due to all the comments about elite defensive warriors and Clare's comment that Irene could not be defensive due to her power level. However Duaf is a known offensive type, so for an offensive type to regenerate all it requires is lots of power (either via awakening or being a #2 or greater) and/or a special motivation (especially true for instant regeneration but since only strong offensive types have done so power is likely a requirement for this).

Edit: missed a comment of yours (sorry)... you are right about another point too. Priscilla wasn't regenerating but releasing power she was holding back. So don't take this as me disagreeing with you but fine tuning what you said.

Last edited by Ryus; 2010-02-19 at 13:53.
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Old 2010-02-19, 16:28   Link #2752
Gooral
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@Ryus
You're over-interpreting things. All Irene said was that she should be able to regenerate a normal limb. It doesn't say that weaker offensive types can't do it or that stronger offensive types can regenerate an arm that's beyond human capabilities. In fact Ophelia says it straight: "A high level offensive warrior, even if she puts a lot of time into it, will at best get an arm no stronger than a regular human's". She also says that Clare is an offensive type and I don't see a reason why we shouldn't believe her. Clare had problems with simple reattaching her legs, defensive type of warrior wouldn't even need them but most probably if he only wanted to attach limbs it would be a piece of cake to him (since he would have to regenerate only very small area). As for why Clare could regenerate a chunk of her arm you've mentioned, Irene explained it: "you had to release your power near to your limits". At such time different rules apply and limited regeneration is possible. Clare at the time had already partially awakened two times (in Rabona and when AB from Gonahl appeared). So it's not that strange she would be able to do it for a third time or be close to partial awakening and regenerate a bit more of body than for limbs to be reattached.
Anyway, to me Clare is obviously an offensive type that excels at partial awakening and thus can sometimes break some barriers.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:18   Link #2753
Ryus
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@Ryus
You're over-interpreting things. All Irene said was that she should be able to regenerate a normal limb. It doesn't say that weaker offensive types can't do it or that stronger offensive types can regenerate an arm that's beyond human capabilities. In fact Ophelia says it straight: "A high level offensive warrior, even if she puts a lot of time into it, will at best get an arm no stronger than a regular human's". She also says that Clare is an offensive type and I don't see a reason why we shouldn't believe her. Clare had problems with simple reattaching her legs, defensive type of warrior wouldn't even need them but most probably if he only wanted to attach limbs it would be a piece of cake to him (since he would have to regenerate only very small area). As for why Clare could regenerate a chunk of her arm you've mentioned, Irene explained it: "you had to release your power near to your limits". At such time different rules apply and limited regeneration is possible. Clare at the time had already partially awakened two times (in Rabona and when AB from Gonahl appeared). So it's not that strange she would be able to do it for a third time or be close to partial awakening and regenerate a bit more of body than for limbs to be reattached.
Anyway, to me Clare is obviously an offensive type that excels at partial awakening and thus can sometimes break some barriers.
How did I disagree with any of that?

I think you misunderstand me... I'm not talking about Clare then, I'm talking about her now. She has clearly changed since back then. All I'm stating is that Clare has all the needed loop holes to regenerate now (not saying she will, just that she has all the know loop holes so it's possible)... plus she has the whole half awakening thing going on. Now I'm not stating she can regenerate easily, just that she likely can. Also lets look at Deneve she's now the fastest regenerator there is... yet during Slashers Arc and Pieta she needed time when regenerating even when passing her limit. Now it's just pop and it's back... though unlike the AFs she seems to need to consciously focus regrowing the limb (her closed eyes when doing it).

A) She's much stronger. In fact fast enough to kill a #2 before she could kill her hostage and able to actually keep track of AOs movements (which she couldn't during Witches Maw). Also this was done with a suppressed yoki. Normally this would only let her grow back a human strength arm but Clare as we all know isn't normal she's partially/half awakened (kind tired and mixing up the right term in my head, sorry) so maybe she can do better. Also we have evidenced one character who relies on sheer power to regenerate and seemingly nothing else, Priscilla. So say what you want about her awakening being the result (since Clare's half awakened and therefore follows similar loopholes and it is she with whom we are debating... lets avoid making Priscilla more than a talking point since you know we'll just end up debating her ) but her ability was stated as different by Rigardo saying basically that sheer power is her loop hole to the rule.

So since the manga evidences something other than what Ophelia said, she was likely just referring to what was known to her. In fact since even Isely and Rigardo were shocked at Priscilla's regeneration... this is very likely the case. So simply put no one had achieved that kind of power before and therefore no one knew powers as such were exempt from the general rule... however anyone with half a brain could follow the logic of the loop hole if they approached it philosophically, being if a normal offensive types can't regenerate but [I]A high level offensive warrior can regenerate a human strength limb (especially if given time)... so... what if an offensive type, many levels beyond them in terms of power tried, to regenerate? The logic exercise is clear in it's impaction.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with one of your points. It was stated by Ophelia that weaker offensive can't regenerate limbs. Simply put she said high level offensive types could regrow human limbs but then said she and Clare couldn't saying "But it's impossible for us... we're just not made that way" after witnessing Clare attempting to try to regenerate her arm.

B) Clare can no longer partially awaken limbs yet is a half awakened being and Deneve reported something similar to what we witnessed in Clare (about her yoki seeming to be at it maximum constantly). So if the same holds true for both of them (or something close) than they for fill the next requirement, which you also stated, beings at, near their limit, or beyond their limit don't have all the normal rules don't applying to them.

C) She has regrew her gut before partially awakening during Chapter 3... without crossing her limit. So Clare's current gut/side wound will heal, if given the chance. Which is what I was talking about in the first place.

Also you mentioned Clare having problems reattaching her legs but Ophelia was messing with her head at the time by "playing" with Raki. It was stated plainly Clare couldn't remain calm. Now you have a point that Clare took a while to regenerate but Riful's comment to Renee (whom Riful knew was defensive... yet didn't think she was stalling... too much ) which clearly stated that limb reattachment is a learned ability (since Riful said it's a skill she should have learned by now). Add on top of that any desire Clare had to not release her full power due to Miria's warning about Ophelia homicidal tendencies with partially awakened beings was likely a factor too... in fact the warning went as far as saying "we should avoid her, even if this raises suspicion... ...we must avoid her at all cost." So even though going off mission is capital offensive Miria still believed running was there best chance at living, if even for a bit longer. So Clare was a rookie at best at regenerating, have a loved one tortured in front of her with her being help less, and fearful of what would happen if Ophelia sensed her power. So any argument stating evidencing Clare's lack of ability to reattach a limb easily that all offensive type suffer this same problem is moot since you can't conclusively prove what was causing Clare's issues with the limb attachments.

Now your right that Clare had far less problems reattaching her hand when she released her power but lets not forget she now had experience with reattachment and was likely desperate to reattach her hand before she passed out (which anyone can sense coming... so it's not like that's a crazy speculation given that she had enough time to before passing out to reattach it ). So this too proves nothing.

So for limb attachment Helen and Matia are our only other known candidates (who wasn't wasting time, like we knew Renee was doing) and yet we don't know if how hard either worked to reattach her limb, both happened off panel. All we know is that Deitrich didn't seem to react to Helen passing her limit but whos to say she wasn't near it which would have been understandable... however nor did Dietrich seem to mention/notice sensing Deneve passing her limit to regrow her shoulder and arm. So who knows if Dietrich wasn't distracted by Isley and the AFs, just stayed silent on the matter, or sensed something but dismissed it like Galatea did with Deneve. For Matia the reattaching of her limbs too place panel too... and to make matters worse Agatha was busy dealing with Clarice and Galatea at the time. So no one was paying attention to her at the time. All we know is that she didn't release tons of power to do it, since she would have alerted someone by doing so. However she reattached her limbs poorly so can we So we can't say what is normal for limb attachments... only that it is a learned skill that requires power for quicker reattachment but can be done with less power over time. Both Helen and Matia seem to imply it's X amount of power (since Clare during Witches Maw was far weaker than either current Helen or Maita) and not Y % of one's power but it's not a given since we didn't witness it and the witnesses were distracted to a degree. There are just too many unknowns here and only one example of limb attachment that wasn't buying time (Renee) that wasn't half or full blown AB who reattached a limb. Plus only one weak one to do so but she was partially awakened but untrained and in unique circumstances.
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Old 2010-02-20, 15:20   Link #2754
Gooral
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
A) She's much stronger. In fact fast enough to kill a #2 before she could kill her hostage and able to actually keep track of AOs movements (which she couldn't during Witches Maw). (...)
Clare was fast enough to kill #2 but in human form - one that was already exhausted. She may or may not be faster than awakened #2 at full power but since she had problems with awakened #3 I wouldn't be so sure about it. As for being able to track AO's movements, I'm not sure which situation you have in mind. I don't remember Clare ever saying that she couldn't keep track of AO's movements (even if she couldn't see them I'm sure she could sense them). If you're talking about Riful disappearing in a blink of an eye she didn't say anything about not being able to track her. Besides, we've never seen Riful do this kind of move again so we don't know whether her impression would change or not. Clare definitely became stronger and faster but these are offensive stats. As for regenerating as far as I remember she had to go near or over her limit to do so.

Quote:
(...) being if a normal offensive types can't regenerate but [I]A high level offensive warrior can regenerate a human strength limb (especially if given time)... so... what if an offensive type, many levels beyond them in terms of power tried, to regenerate? The logic exercise is clear in it's impaction.
And what makes you think that normal offensive type can't regenerate? That's baseless assumption. From what Irene said we can only say that Irene should have been able to regenerate a limb in a few months. But what makes you think that weaker offensive warrior couldn't do it either? Just because he was weaker and slower it wouldn't automatically mean that he would have worse regenerative powers and even if, I wouldn't see a problem with him getting the same results but after longer time.
Just because the strongest offensive awakened being (although that's not definite yet as Aimless' arguments haven't been refuted yet) could regenerate doesn't mean that the strongest offensive claymore could. As for "partial awakeneds" it's a different matter and as I said different rules apply to them.
Quote:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with one of your points. It was stated by Ophelia that weaker offensive can't regenerate limbs.
Where? Like I said earlier, you're over-interpreting or misinterpreting what Ophelia said. She said:
"A high level offensive warrior, even if she puts a lot of time into it, will at best get an arm no stronger than a regular human's.", i.e. even the strongest offensive warrior would not be able to regenerate his claymore arm, only human. She also said earlier that complete regeneration is impossible for her and Clare and Ophelia was a very strong offensive warrior. What she meant by "complete regenaration" was that the arm would not be as strong as earlier (she explained it moment later).

Quote:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with one of your points. It was stated by Ophelia that weaker offensive can't regenerate limbs. Simply put she said high level offensive types could regrow human limbs but then said she and Clare couldn't saying "But it's impossible for us... we're just not made that way" after witnessing Clare attempting to try to regenerate her arm.
Oh man... You've completely misinterpreted what Ophelia said. When she said "it's impossible for us" she meant complete regeneration, sth that defensive warriors could do. "We're not just made that way" = we're not like defensive warriors. You've seen somebody do it once = you've seen a defensive warrior do it. Irene wasn't even sure she would be able to regenerate even human arm and even if, she knew that it would take months. So Clare trying to do it in a few seconds was impossible.

Quote:
Also you mentioned Clare having problems reattaching her legs but Ophelia was messing with her head at the time by "playing" with Raki. It was stated plainly Clare couldn't remain calm. Now you have a point that Clare took a while to regenerate but Riful's comment to Renee (whom Riful knew was defensive... yet didn't think she was stalling... too much ) which clearly stated that limb reattachment is a learned ability (since Riful said it's a skill she should have learned by now). Add on top of that any desire Clare had to not release her full power due to Miria's warning about Ophelia homicidal tendencies with partially awakened beings was likely a factor too... in fact the warning went as far as saying "we should avoid her, even if this raises suspicion... ...we must avoid her at all cost." So even though going off mission is capital offensive Miria still believed running was there best chance at living, if even for a bit longer. So Clare was a rookie at best at regenerating, have a loved one tortured in front of her with her being help less, and fearful of what would happen if Ophelia sensed her power.
Actually Ophelia was helping Clare and giving hints. Thanks to her tip Clare was able to do it on time (although she was amazing to perfectly execute what she was told). As for Riful, what makes you think she knew how much should it take Renee to reattach her legs? Even if she made some experiments it would depend on a warrior and Renee was not only regenerating her legs but also probing Raciella and thinking about other things at the same time. Also I don't remember Riful ever saying that "it's a skill she should have learned by now". She let Renee do it because she asked her to.

Quote:
So any argument stating evidencing Clare's lack of ability to reattach a limb easily that all offensive type suffer this same problem is moot since you can't conclusively prove what was causing Clare's issues with the limb attachments.
Huh? I didn't write that. I only wrote that if Clare was a defensive warrior she would be able to reattach her legs much faster and easier. We know from what Riful said that it is faster to reattach limbs than to regenerate it and since defensive warriors can regenerate much faster than offensive warriors (and regenerate fully functional claymore arm) it's not that big of a loop to think they would reattach limbs faster (since reattaching is most probably regenerating micro-parts needed to "glue" a limb with the rest of the body).

Quote:
Now your right that Clare had far less problems reattaching her hand when she released her power but lets not forget she now had experience with reattachment and was likely desperate to reattach her hand before she passed out (which anyone can sense coming... so it's not like that's a crazy speculation given that she had enough time to before passing out to reattach it ). So this too proves nothing.
It proves that if Clare is near her limit she can regenerate small parts of her body (like the chunk Ophelia destroyed) and being an offensive type doesn't mean much at the time.

Quote:
So we can't say what is normal for limb attachments... only that it is a learned skill that requires power for quicker reattachment but can be done with less power over time.
What makes you say that over time it requires less power? Since Clare, Helen and others got stronger and managed to get access to more power it may as well be that they could easily use more power to do that.

Clare IMO can't regenerate fully unless she awakens or crosses her limits or reaches the point where she has access to 100% of her power without awakening. If she could I wouldn't see a reason what would stop Clare from looking for Irene, give her arm back and regenerate her own. I suspect that Clare knows her regenerative abilities while still being claymore have it's limits and bring her closer to awakening.
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Old 2010-02-21, 01:44   Link #2755
Stream
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Gooral, you mentioned that you see no reason why you shouldn't believe Ophelia when she mentioned Clare is an offensive type. That makes me think you haven't read my post on page 136 on the subject.
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Old 2010-02-21, 03:58   Link #2756
Gooral
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Nope, I just don't see things the way you do, in fact I couldn't disagree more. I didn't even want to respond to your post because it was obvious to me you were wrong and your arguments didn't convince me one bit. Every indication of Clare being defensive type resulted from her going over (or at least near) her limit and healing herself. When she was injured by female youma (or a youma pretending to be a female) she only sealed her wound but as Rubel said it was a matter of time it would reopen and become lethal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stream View Post
(...) The reason why she believes Clare is an offensive type is because Clare stares straight even at the strongest of opponents.
Yes, this and also her years of experience. She could tell immediately what kind of warrior Clare was and she was right about it. If Clare was defensive she would start regenerating her arm even though Ophelia told her that it's impossible. But she couldn't and Clare knew Ophelia was right. She tried to regenerate even though Ophelia said her it was impossible so you can't say that Ophelia messed with her head and that's why she stopped.
Quote:
However, she also told Clare that her defense has its roots in offense, and if you think about it, Ophelia is completely wrong on this. Clare does not protect herself by getting rid of the enemy as soon as possible. She protects herself by avoiding, blocking, and mitigating attacks more than anything. (...)
lol
Of course she gets rid of the opponent ASAP but that's easier said than done. Youma she disposes in seconds, AB are more problematic and sometimes too strong for her to handle so she has to use her brain in order to defeat them. She also stares her opponents straight in the face (e.g. when she fought Riful), she's fearless. When defensive types piss their pants she fights to the end. When other offensive types are paralysed by fear (Miria) she continues her attacks. To me she's as offensive warrior as one can be. Avoiding and blocking hits as well as trying to use tricks is used by every intelligent warrior. She blocks hits and avoids them because she knows once she's hit she won't be able to heal her wound during the fight. That's just another argument that says she's offensive. Teresa - the strongest warrior ever was most probably offensive type but she still tried to block/dodge, used kicks, etc. Miria who is offensive warrior uses hit and run tactic, which could indicate she's a defensive type (although we know she isn't). Ophelia wasn't surprised that Clare tried to use tricks. She still knew that Clare was offensive type. Irene also didn't notice anything strange about Clare reattaching her hand and she considered Clare as an offensive warrior.
Quote:
(...) If you look at the Slashers arc and all the fights before that you can clearly see that Clare does not defeat her enemies through raw power so much as she defeats her enemies either by luring them into bad positions or surviving until she can get a good hit in. It's not until she receives the Quick Sword that defending with offense even becomes an option. (...)
I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. Of course she didn't defeat her opponents through raw power, that's because - surprise - she was much weaker than them. In the Slashers arc she couldn't even defeat Miria that couldn't defeat male AB so it's no surprise she would try to use her brain to survive and use pre-emptive youki sensing.
Look at ES4, she didn't let the stronger warrior beat her until she would be bored but faced her fair and square. If she was defensive type she could regenerate any wounds and be done with it, why would she waste her strength in a pointless fight? She also put her arm in a joint without any help. When she was in a pinch she used her brain and kicked a stone towards her colleague but that's common sense and not an indication of her being defensive. She was the one that killed youma, she wasn't playing the role of defenceless warrior but she killed it without hesitation. She also went into Riful's lair and didn't try to get help first.

When Clare can she takes the initiative and attacks relentlessly (e.g. fight with Rigaldo or with Duff) but don't be surprised that when she's at a huge disadvantage she tries to lessen her handicap. If an average offensive warrior tried to take on AB without his sword he would be crazy not courageous. And Clare was "without a sword" in a way when she fought male AB or Ophelia.

I would also like to bring another point to your attention. I've noticed that defensive warriors prefer companionship more than offensive types. Clare and Teresa both were loners and liked to go their own paths. Teresa liked to isolate herself from others, Clare likewise. Clare was the one that wanted to abandon fabulous 7 group. Ophelia also lived in her own world. Irene lived completely alone. Rafaella was a lone wolf and assassin. Yuma, Cynthia and Tabitha wanted to stay with others. Galatea chose to live with humans, Audrey had a partner. Helen is an exception here but that's the only case we know of such long friendship between two claymores and it still is like I said: defensive warriors are more likely to stay in groups than offensive ones. Of course it may be just a coincidence.
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Old 2010-02-21, 21:26   Link #2757
Stream
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Nope, I just don't see things the way you do, in fact I couldn't disagree more. I didn't even want to respond to your post because it was obvious to me you were wrong and your arguments didn't convince me one bit.
That you disagree or disbelieve my argument is fine, but the way you treat it as being wholly without merit makes me suspect you're a little close-minded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Every indication of Clare being defensive type resulted from her going over (or at least near) her limit and healing herself.
You just ignored Ryus's example.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
When she was injured by female youma (or a youma pretending to be a female) she only sealed her wound but as Rubel said it was a matter of time it would reopen and become lethal.
That is not what Rubel said. Here is the original Japanese along with my translation of it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stream View Post
The original Japanese is:
無茶をしたものだな
傷口は塞がっていろとはいえ急所をやられれば命を落とすのは妖魔とおなじだと
いうことを忘れるなよ
Translated, that becomes:
You've really done something absurd.
Although the wound is closing, should this vital spot* suffer damage, you will lose your life the same as a yoma.
Don't forget what I've said.
*The Japanese says merely 急所, meaning "vitals." Because Japanese rarely distinguishes between singular and plural and because it does not specify this/that/etc., the number and and vital(s) in question must be contextually inferred.

The implication here is that Clare was pierced in a vital spot. The yoma who pierced Clare also suggests that the wound should kill Clare, saying right after inflicting it, "Even if you are a Claymore, once you're pierced through the stomach—!"
You also gloss over a major detail: Jean explicitly said that wound is beyond the abilities of an offensive type to heal, and Clare, before half awakening, managed to heal it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Yes, this and also her years of experience. She could tell immediately what kind of warrior Clare was and she was right about it.
Years of experience can also lead one to jump to premature conclusions because the prior knowledge can leave you with a clear picture of what should be offensive or defensive. So, if you can fill in enough of the signs, you naturally assume the rest must fit as well, even though that doesn't have to hold true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
If Clare was defensive she would start regenerating her arm even though Ophelia told her that it's impossible. But she couldn't and Clare knew Ophelia was right. She tried to regenerate even though Ophelia said her it was impossible so you can't say that Ophelia messed with her head and that's why she stopped.
High speed regeneration is Deneve's specialty and usually beyond the abilities of a defensive type unless they approach their limit. Clare is much weaker than Deneve and didn't even have experience reattaching limbs before Ophelia's mandetory lesson. The notion that she should immediately have results when attempting a high level ability when she barely has experience with the basics in a condition of depleted physical and mental strength is ridiculous. And as Ophelia previously pointed out, she wasn't going to wait around while Clare tried to recover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
lol
Of course she gets rid of the opponent ASAP but that's easier said than done. Youma she disposes in seconds, AB are more problematic and sometimes too strong for her to handle so she has to use her brain in order to defeat them.
No, she fights carefully against youma too. Reread the starting chapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
She also stares her opponents straight in the face (e.g. when she fought Riful), she's fearless. When defensive types piss their pants she fights to the end. When other offensive types are paralysed by fear (Miria) she continues her attacks. To me she's as offensive warrior as one can be.
There's no requirement that if you stare opponents straight in the face you must be offensive. Deneve stares opponents straight in the face too and she's defensive. Galatea doesn't piss herself either when she recognizes Riful's presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Avoiding and blocking hits as well as trying to use tricks is used by every intelligent warrior. She blocks hits and avoids them because she knows once she's hit she won't be able to heal her wound during the fight. That's just another argument that says she's offensive. Teresa - the strongest warrior ever was most probably offensive type but she still tried to block/dodge, used kicks, etc. Miria who is offensive warrior uses hit and run tactic, which could indicate she's a defensive type (although we know she isn't). Ophelia wasn't surprised that Clare tried to use tricks. She still knew that Clare was offensive type. Irene also didn't notice anything strange about Clare reattaching her hand and she considered Clare as an offensive warrior.
I'll just C&P an older post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stream View Post
  1. Not all defensive types can take fatal wounds and keep going. Deneve can, but others would either have to take themselves out of battle to heal themselves or just aren't that good at healing. If you can't heal a wound faster than it would kill you, I think you'd be done for.
  2. Just because you can deliberately take a wound doesn't mean you should.
  3. Your logic is inconclusive. Both offensive types and defensive types will naturally prefer dodging to getting hurt if they can, so we can't draw any further conclusions through your reasoning from the fact that Clare avoids getting hurt.
  4. Offensive types are more likely to go by "the best defense is a good offense."
  5. Defensive types are more likely to use defensive maneuvers than offensive types.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. Of course she didn't defeat her opponents through raw power, that's because - surprise - she was much weaker than them. In the Slashers arc she couldn't even defeat Miria that couldn't defeat male AB so it's no surprise she would try to use her brain to survive and use pre-emptive youki sensing.
Putting the cart before the horse, m'afraid. The point is that her skill and powerset was tailored in a way that only made defensive combat feasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Look at ES4, she didn't let the stronger warrior beat her until she would be bored but faced her fair and square. If she was defensive type she could regenerate any wounds and be done with it, why would she waste her strength in a pointless fight?
So many things wrong with this I'm not sure where to begin. I'll just pretend I didn't read this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
She also put her arm in a joint without any help. When she was in a pinch she used her brain and kicked a stone towards her colleague but that's common sense and not an indication of her being defensive. She was the one that killed youma, she wasn't playing the role of defenceless warrior but she killed it without hesitation. She also went into Riful's lair and didn't try to get help first.
The more I read your post, the more I get the impression you don't understand what defensive types really are. Galatea also went into Riful's lair and didn't try to get help first, and she knew Riful was there.

Being a defensive type doesn't mean being a coward or taking a beating instead of fighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
When Clare can she takes the initiative and attacks relentlessly (e.g. fight with Rigaldo or with Duff) but don't be surprised that when she's at a huge disadvantage she tries to lessen her handicap. If an average offensive warrior tried to take on AB without his sword he would be crazy not courageous. And Clare was "without a sword" in a way when she fought male AB or Ophelia.
And it is that Clare developed a style of battle revolving around the "lack of a sword" instead of developing a "sword" that makes her a defensive type. Clare had to be given a "sword" by Irene in order to be able to fight like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I would also like to bring another point to your attention. I've noticed that defensive warriors prefer companionship more than offensive types. Clare and Teresa both were loners and liked to go their own paths. Teresa liked to isolate herself from others, Clare likewise. Clare was the one that wanted to abandon fabulous 7 group. Ophelia also lived in her own world. Irene lived completely alone. Rafaella was a lone wolf and assassin. Yuma, Cynthia and Tabitha wanted to stay with others. Galatea chose to live with humans, Audrey had a partner. Helen is an exception here but that's the only case we know of such long friendship between two claymores and it still is like I said: defensive warriors are more likely to stay in groups than offensive ones. Of course it may be just a coincidence.
I don't think there's any intrinsicness to warrior types here. Deneve is a huge loner with a history of stirring up trouble against her own kind. Galatea also seemed to be the loner type with no real friends, just acquaintances. Rabona changed her.
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Old 2010-02-22, 01:58   Link #2758
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Clare was fast enough to kill #2 but in human form - one that was already exhausted. She may or may not be faster than awakened #2 at full power but since she had problems with awakened #3 I wouldn't be so sure about it. As for being able to track AO's movements, I'm not sure which situation you have in mind. I don't remember Clare ever saying that she couldn't keep track of AO's movements (even if she couldn't see them I'm sure she could sense them). If you're talking about Riful disappearing in a blink of an eye she didn't say anything about not being able to track her. Besides, we've never seen Riful do this kind of move again so we don't know whether her impression would change or not. Clare definitely became stronger and faster but these are offensive stats. As for regenerating as far as I remember she had to go near or over her limit to do so.
Lets get something straight Ghost Clare dominated Dauf but just lacked the yoki to make the windcutter strong enough to harm him, well not lacked but choose not to release her yoki to increase the windcutters force so she could keep her suppressed aura. She was able to easily dodge every attack, out pace his ability to track her, and was able to redirect his rod attacks at the target of her choice without any yoki release. All of which where impossible for her 7 years prior without tricks. Clare was using a bb gun on a tank but the tank couldn't harm her either, however we all know Clare could have used her bazooka instead if she released her yoki.

Now say what you want about Agatha getting weaker but she was still able to move fact enough to catch Galatea. Whom would have sensed her coming and she avoided Clare's attack from behind... so she wasn't so much as wound but removed from the bulk of her ability to attack. She still showed great ability to sense and agility/speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
And what makes you think that normal offensive type can't regenerate? That's baseless assumption. From what Irene said we can only say that Irene should have been able to regenerate a limb in a few months. But what makes you think that weaker offensive warrior couldn't do it either? Just because he was weaker and slower it wouldn't automatically mean that he would have worse regenerative powers and even if, I wouldn't see a problem with him getting the same results but after longer time.
Just because the strongest offensive awakened being (although that's not definite yet as Aimless' arguments haven't been refuted yet) could regenerate doesn't mean that the strongest offensive claymore could. As for "partial awakeneds" it's a different matter and as I said different rules apply to them.
I stated my argument and it seems you missed it or ignored it.

Steam mentioned Rubel's comment and Jean's. Both were part of why I hold this point of view on the matter.

Also I believe your interpretation of Ophelia's comment is wrong and she is implying that only high level offensive warriors can do major regeneration. To be nice I'll rephrase why with a rhetorical question in just a moment, even though I clearly stated my opinion of this last time... but first next time please don't call a evidenced theory/speculation baseless. Clearly it wasn't since I support my opinion with facts from the manga. If you want to disagree fine but clearly I found base for my opinion... all you really did was state my interpretation was wrong and yours was correct. You didn't support you notion well enough for that since all it was was opinionary stances too. You didn't find the magic bullet that proved me wrong, only posted a different opinion and acted like it was the only stance to have. Now back to my rhetorical question...

Why would both Ophelia and Irene both mention high level offensive types if every offensive could do it? They would have just stated at best offensive types could regrow normal arms... even with time. However high level was used too clearly implying a difference. Then throw in Ophelia's comment about us not being made that way and you have your supporting comment to my stance. Mention one time an offensive warrior (non awakened) other than Clare has regenerated (no reattachments, they are different) from a wound like a gut wound... in fact Yagi went to great lengths to not show Miria's and/or Helen's wound that knocked them out during the final fight at Pieta. Then they stood up when they recovered they were missing no uniform pieces.

Clare is the exception to the rule even before her partial awakening, likely due to a massive yoki reserve like Priscilla. (I'll submit Miria's comment about what she first sensed of Clare's power as my evidence and link it to Ragardo's comment about how Priscilla uniquely healed). Jean was way stronger (it terms of realized power rather than latent power) than Clare at the time she got the same wound and received a fatal blow from a wound Clare healed from in moments. Clare healed her wound in moments when Jean failed over a period of several chapters. I believe Clare failed at regenerating her arm due to trying to rely on her realized power rather than her latent power, she didn't tap into her yoki like she did with her gut wound. Mainly due to her trying to suppress her yoki at the time to better sense Ophelia. For the gut wound Clare went close to all out with her yoki release (well her face was clearly past 30% but shy of 50%, I believe the lack of any power use past that was more due to it being Ch 3 and too much yoki release would spoil upcoming plot revelations and scare off people wanting hot chicks, however her gut had many veins too when her arm later didn't) but with the arm she was barely touching 30% (her face was rather human looking but with some veins and the veins never reached her arm. Which is odd since even if it shouldn't work the veins should have still been there since she released her yoki there, thus implying she hadn't released too much yoki.). She gave up after Ophelia gained distance and told her it wouldn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Where? Like I said earlier, you're over-interpreting or misinterpreting what Ophelia said. She said:
"A high level offensive warrior, even if she puts a lot of time into it, will at best get an arm no stronger than a regular human's.", i.e. even the strongest offensive warrior would not be able to regenerate his claymore arm, only human. She also said earlier that complete regeneration is impossible for her and Clare and Ophelia was a very strong offensive warrior. What she meant by "complete regenaration" was that the arm would not be as strong as earlier (she explained it moment later).


So how exactly does this prohibit the notion that weaker offensive warriors can't regenerate limbs. As I pointed out Clare couldn't even get her arm to start a human level regeneration and Ophelia told her "we're just not made that way."

Your acting like Clare had to consciously choose to regrow a human arm rather than a half breed arm. Something should have happened if she was strong enough for something to happen. Clare just couldn't get anything out of her attempt. Not even a notion that she could regrow a human arm over time. She got blank. She was too weak and it was as plain as day. Your interpretation of the dialog is fine (but still debatable) however it doesn't match the panels. Something is fishy with that line... I looked and looked and could find no other translations of it. I think we really need too get a second interpenetration of it. That translation was done by VIZ... right? So it will be good but not completely accurate. I mean who uses the VIZ translation for the later chapters anyways but for the earlier chapters where kinda forced to.

I mean come on... you just rewrote it as "even the strongest offensive warrior would not be able to regenerate his claymore arm, only human." Even that can still be taken to imply weaker offensive warriors can't and so far no non awakened offensive type has matched Clare's healing ability. Sure Helen got a cut on her spine and Miria got a hole for the skin of her stomach but no organs where penetrated, the AB just moved his tongue under her skin to inflict pain. Jean got 7 poles in her but her awakening healed them not her normal abilities. Plus each pole wasn't put in right after the other but over time so they could heal enough for the next pole. Miria got hurt in no vital areas but Rigardo but that knocked her out and took time to heal... even then though she didn't look too good.

However they were all partially awakened so lets look at Sophia and Noel both died from 2 or 3 stab wounds to the chest but both where very strong. One of the shots make Noel appear to have her heart stabbed but Sophia it's harder to tell beyond one stab wound that get the shoulder and one through the back into the chest. Irene survived a chest wound and a limb loss but clearly she lived. Irene's chest wound was close to Clare's chest wound from Ophelia's sword but she stayed conscious when Irene clearly did pass out... likely her stronger yoki saved her. Maitia got minor wounds everywhere but none where fatal. Rachel's worst wound was to her upper right chest and that's not fatal to humans if treated quickly enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Oh man... You've completely misinterpreted what Ophelia said. When she said "it's impossible for us" she meant complete regeneration, sth that defensive warriors could do. "We're not just made that way" = we're not like defensive warriors. You've seen somebody do it once = you've seen a defensive warrior do it. Irene wasn't even sure she would be able to regenerate even human arm and even if, she knew that it would take months. So Clare trying to do it in a few seconds was impossible.
(see above too)

Even if she did mean exactly that and I'm wrong... the panels don't lie. Clare's efforts amount to nothing and while she wasn't quite a high level offensive warrior, she was partially awakened. The partial awakening loop hole should have given her the necessary help for the process to at least start. It didn't. Even if it would have taken months for a complete human arm, something would happen if she had the necessary power or else the wound would have closed up again... thus making the months to heal an impossibility. Also being at max power for much of that time wouldn't work either since any other offensive type would awaken after that much yoki release for that period of time but clearly both Irene and Ophelia knew it could be done... so some offensive warrior must have done it in the past. Or else they would've had no knowledge of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Actually Ophelia was helping Clare and giving hints. Thanks to her tip Clare was able to do it on time (although she was amazing to perfectly execute what she was told). As for Riful, what makes you think she knew how much should it take Renee to reattach her legs? Even if she made some experiments it would depend on a warrior and Renee was not only regenerating her legs but also probing Raciella and thinking about other things at the same time. Also I don't remember Riful ever saying that "it's a skill she should have learned by now". She let Renee do it because she asked her to.
Yeah... your going to need to explain that one. It came off to me as hurting Clare with the truth. Are you telling me Ophelia was helping Clare by killing her loved one, since being cold is the only way to live. I suppose Ophelia wanted a sister. Sorry but your wrong, Ophelia didn't help Clare until she awakened.

Riful said it chapter 91 page 6. Renee said something similar in Chapter 84 page 19.

I believe Riful knew what she was talking about since she's was about 100 years old and had a long time to figure it out by torturing Claymores... or watch Dauf play with them. While Riful was often foolish she knew the game and how there powers worked... we are talking about a non-sensor type who figured out quickly how the Twins Alicia and Beth worked via pure deduction.

Also your acting like Riful knew Renee was sensing Raphaela/Luciela while healing. There was nothing to indicate that since Renee played coy when Riful questioned her about her fearful face. In fact Renee told Riful she was finding it hard to concentrate (implying she tried but couldn't due to her wounds) and then repeated the fact that she didn't really know where to begin since she not good with inner sensing. While we know for a fact that she was really probing Raphaela/Luciela while doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Huh? I didn't write that. I only wrote that if Clare was a defensive warrior she would be able to reattach her legs much faster and easier. We know from what Riful said that it is faster to reattach limbs than to regenerate it and since defensive warriors can regenerate much faster than offensive warriors (and regenerate fully functional claymore arm) it's not that big of a loop to think they would reattach limbs faster (since reattaching is most probably regenerating micro-parts needed to "glue" a limb with the rest of the body).
See your below comment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@Ryus
... Clare had problems with simple reattaching her legs, defensive type of warrior wouldn't even need them but most probably if he only wanted to attach limbs it would be a piece of cake to him (since he would have to regenerate only very small area).
Forgive me but that sentence made no sense at all... I still can't figure out why defensive warriors don't need legs.

I tried to figure out what you meant and if you honestly didn't mean what I thought you did, I'm sorry but please be more clear. But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@Ryus
... Clare had problems with simple reattaching her legs,
...seemed clear in it's implication to me at the time. Since we were debating offensive warriors healing abilities I thought you where trying to state that Clare was evidence all offensive warriors suffered from having a hard time reattaching limbs. But clearly... I... didn't understand that simple sentence and the later comment about limb reattachment being a "piece of cake to him" (I assume you meant her).

Face it your impaction was very clear... and you reposted it here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I only wrote that if Clare was a defensive warrior she would be able to reattach her legs much faster and easier
Now as to your logic exercise... your going to have to prove it since limb reattachment is a learned ability. As evidenced, twice, once by Riful and once by Renee. Riful said it chapter 91 page 6. Renee said something similar in Chapter 84 page 19. Also, as Stream pointed out, Yuma is a known defensive type who had problems regenerating. So your very logic exercise now indicates that for some defensive types it should be easy but for other defensive types it shouldn't be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
It proves that if Clare is near her limit she can regenerate small parts of her body (like the chunk Ophelia destroyed) and being an offensive type doesn't mean much at the time.
I seem to recall most of the warriors at Pieta during the first battle getting wounded but none of them had to approach there limits to heal minor wounds. That just takes times... unless your saying every Claymore that got wounded at Pieta was defensive minus the Fab 4 plus Jean.

Or what about Nina? Think she needed to approach her limit. Or Rachel... with whom Audrey just told her to rest. So clearly minor wound just need time to heal fully for offensive warriors. No pushing one's yoki to their limit required.

Your logic seems to make any wounded offensive Claymore an AB by default. That is unless they choose to keep the wound or die from it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
What makes you say that over time it requires less power? Since Clare, Helen and others got stronger and managed to get access to more power it may as well be that they could easily use more power to do that.

Clare IMO can't regenerate fully unless she awakens or crosses her limits or reaches the point where she has access to 100% of her power without awakening. If she could I wouldn't see a reason what would stop Clare from looking for Irene, give her arm back and regenerate her own. I suspect that Clare knows her regenerative abilities while still being claymore have it's limits and bring her closer to awakening.


Uh... I was talking about limb reattachment here, not regeneration. I think you misread something. As we all know they are very different skills.

For what make me think it takes less power if done over time... I already stated it in my last post... sorry you missed it. Reread my last paragraph.
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Old 2010-02-22, 12:34   Link #2759
Gooral
Firefly/Serenity fanatic
 
 
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Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Lets get something straight Ghost Clare dominated Dauf but just lacked the yoki to make the windcutter strong enough to harm him, well not lacked but choose not to release her yoki to increase the windcutters force so she could keep her suppressed aura.
Yeah, she dominated him so much that she had to escape from him and cut Yuma's leg to save her...
As for Clare not releasing youki, I thought it was obvious we were talking about Clare at 0%. If Clare released youki she could be much faster than Rigaldo but that wasn't the point. What you wrote was that Clare at 0% youki was fast enough to kill Agatha that was holding a hostage (and in order to do so she would have to be faster than her) I only emphasized the fact that Agatha was in weakened state. In Witches Maw Clare would also dodge most of attacks if not for the confined space she was in.

Quote:
Also I believe your interpretation of Ophelia's comment is wrong and she is implying that only high level offensive warriors can do major regeneration. To be nice I'll rephrase why with a rhetorical question in just a moment, even though I clearly stated my opinion of this last time... but first next time please don't call a evidenced theory/speculation baseless. Clearly it wasn't since I support my opinion with facts from the manga. If you want to disagree fine but clearly I found base for my opinion... all you really did was state my interpretation was wrong and yours was correct. You didn't support you notion well enough for that since all it was was opinionary stances too. You didn't find the magic bullet that proved me wrong, only posted a different opinion and acted like it was the only stance to have. Now back to my rhetorical question...
It's not evidenced that normal offensive warriors can't regenerate which is what you're saying. It is a baseless assumption since you can interpret Rubel's words in many ways and the simplest one is that such minor injury even offensive type could regenerate.

"Even if you're offensive type you should be able to regenerate it".
The keyword here is "should", i.e. we don't know whether it would be possible or not and that was only Rubel's guessing. I really doubt there would be another #1 (Rafaella wasn't #1 technically but she was as strong as one) who would lose his eye and then regenerate it (if there were cases where weaker warriors regenerated sth then it would prove that weaker off. warriors can regenerate). I doubt because #1s don't have enemies besides really strong AB and to lose an eye and be still alive is a chance like one to million (if someone was skilled enough to pluck out an eye he should also be able to kill that someone and even if not, to injure someone in the eye and make a wound shallow enough to not damage anything else would be rather hard). If there even was #1 that could regenerate some specific part of his body it wouldn't automatically mean Raphaela could regenerate eye specifically. And even if she could regenerate her eye we don't know how much time it would take. For all we know weaker offensive warriors also could be able to regenerate some parts of their body (e.g. eye) but they would have difficulties to survive in such a state for enough time for them to regenerate (I really doubt MiB would be so generous as to hold an average warrior that was unable to fight, Rafaela was strong and valuable even one eyed). It would take them more time which they usually didn't have. Being one-eyed is a big handicap for a warrior (he would have a problem with judging distance and other things) so of course if possible one would seek help from others ASAP but it still would require releasing youki (even if someone else helped). So Rafaela needing someone like Cynthia to regenerate her wound is also a possibility.
We don't know whether Helen could regenerate her eye by herself or not, we only know that it was much easier for her to seek help than to do it by herself, use much youki, time and be vulnerable to ZACS that reacted to youki.

Comparing Jean's and Clare's wound is pointless. I've written before that the wound was sealed not healed. Clare only sealed her wound and if she healed it, then no earlier than after half-awakening in Rabona. Rubel was talking about "sealed wound" not healed wound. It was still a serious wound and if she was hit there again she would most probably die ("Don't forget that if this sealed and rather serious wound is hit again you can die with the monster"). If it was healed receiving exactly the same wound wouldn't kill her (since she survived such attack earlier). Besides, if you want to bring Jean into this, compare the sizes of their wounds. Rigualds hand was much bigger than youma's, he also lifted Jean while still having his hand in her (and thus made the wound more extensive since it extended under Jean's own weight). So they were not the same at all, Clare's wasn't fatal wound and could be sealed, Jean's couldn't.

Quote:
Why would both Ophelia and Irene both mention high level offensive types if every offensive could do it? They would have just stated at best offensive types could regrow normal arms... even with time. However high level was used too clearly implying a difference. Then throw in Ophelia's comment about us not being made that way and you have your supporting comment to my stance. Mention one time an offensive warrior (non awakened) other than Clare has regenerated (no reattachments, they are different) from a wound like a gut wound... in fact Yagi went to great lengths to not show Miria's and/or Helen's wound that knocked them out during the final fight at Pieta. Then they stood up when they recovered they were missing no uniform pieces.
Again.
Ophelia said: "Offensive warriors like you and I can't COMPLETELY regenerate our bodies". She mentions high level offensive warriors to make a point that even they can't completely regenerate their bodies. At best they will have a limb of human capabilities but they will still need much time (so it's far from being complete regeneration). In no place it is stated that weaker or normal offensive warriors won't be able to regrow human arm. But since even the strongest warriors need months then weaker warriors would need maybe even years. And how many offensive warriors could survive with one arm? We know about only one (two if we include Clare but she was helped). Unless they were of Irene's class I doubt they would survive long enough to regrow an arm. And how many cases of such thing happening could Ophelia know?
Later on Ophelia says that they (i.e. offensive warriors) are not made that way. So according to you she thinks that stronger warriors are made that way (i.e. there is such a big difference in their physiology/build)? And she is a high level offensive warrior. If we look at her stats only, she's stronger than Irene (she lost with her not because she lacked in raw power but because she lacked in technique, if Irene didn't "awaken" her arm she would most probably be slower than Ophelia and if Ophelia could store all of her youki in one arm she would probably win) and almost as strong as Rafaela (although we know that data books are not canon). Anyway, if by strong warriors she meant only #1s then it would be very strange, in that case she would state "offensive warriors of the highest level" (Galatea was above her, but she was (and is) defensive and only Alicia and Beth remained).
As for Irene, she didn't mention anything about high level warriors, don't make things up.

Quote:
Clare's efforts amount to nothing and while she wasn't quite a high level offensive warrior, she was partially awakened. The partial awakening loop hole should have given her the necessary help for the process to at least start. It didn't.
Another baseless assumption. Neither in chapter 3 nor in 36 Clare was at her limit. What's more, being half-awakened doesn't automatically allow offensive claymores to regenerate completely. In addition, Irene said that it would take her months, so why would partially awakened claymore be able to regenerate enough for us to see in such a short amount of time without going over his limit?
And you're wrong about another thing. Ophelia did say Clare earlier that she can't regenerate completely but she still tried. After Ophelia said it again Clare did it for enough time to sense whether it was so or not.

As for the rest I don't have time right now to respond but I've basically said all I wanted.

Last edited by Gooral; 2010-02-22 at 12:51.
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Old 2010-02-22, 13:53   Link #2760
Stream
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Ryus, a few points.
  1. About the quotes where Ophelia says regeneration is useless and at best an offensive type could only regenerate an ordinary human's arm: The translations are accurate. I just double-checked.
  2. Miria does not sense a "latent power" in Clare. That quote where Miria explains her impression of Clare as the strongest has been misinterpreted too much. Here is the situation: Clare solo kills four youma without straining herself or any injuries, is unfazed by the others demanding what she was up to running wild like that, has the situation fully under control, nonchalantly comments that she merely wanted to get the mission over with (ie. this is ordinary for her), and is unconcerned about the possibility of fighting an AB by herself. She essentially paints such a thorough image of being a badass (and has some results to show for it) that Miria naturally concludes that Clare must be strong, probably in the 10s. That was it. Miria does not somehow sense from that battle that Clare must have huge untapped youki reserves or somesuch.
  3. About the Male AB merely moving his tongue around under Miria's skin: No, I don't think that would cause enough damage to make Miria scream out in pain. I think he did injure Miria's stomach, but did it lightly and slowly to torture her to death. Because the wounds weren't that great, because Miria is such a powerful warrior, and because Clare bought her time, she was able to recover.

Gooral, Clare recovered from the wound. The youma indicated the wound should be fatal, Rubel suggests that it's a miracle the wound didn't kill her, and the stomach area was noted to be a vital spot and completely pierced. Rigaldo may be bigger, but consider the difference between pre-half-awakening Clare and post-half-awakening Jean and Clare's situation should have been worse than Jean's. You're right that she didn't fully heal the injury right away, but she did manage to recover from what should have been a lethal wound and she did heal it eventually. As Jean puts it, this is beyond the abilities of an offensive type.
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