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Old 2008-02-03, 15:16   Link #1001
Newhope
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Originally Posted by Bikerider View Post
Latest chapter (77) will put to rest any doubts Clare isn't top 5 equivalent or better now. And probably top 10 for all the Ghostly 7.
This chapter didn't really show us how strong clare is now she just got a free hit in at the end.

I Reckon the fab 4 + Cynthia are at high single digit fighting strenght the over two are more likey in the teens.

Last edited by Newhope; 2008-02-03 at 15:51.
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Old 2008-02-03, 17:47   Link #1002
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This chapter didn't really show us how strong clare is now she just got a free hit in at the end.

I Reckon the fab 4 + Cynthia are at high single digit fighting strenght the over two are more likey in the teens.
Agreed but I do think that it will be a quick clean up given that we have 7 highly trained claymores for 7 years. Assessing the 7 ghosts power is the job of the next chapter.

Now that I saw Miata in real action, I know now why they said she was #1 material. I bet she is "A" in both Yoki and strength.
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Old 2008-02-03, 17:55   Link #1003
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Agreed but I do think that it will be a quick clean up given that we have 7 highly trained claymores for 7 years. Assessing the 7 ghosts power is the job of the next chapter.

Now that I saw Miata in real action, I know now why they said she was #1 material. I bet she is "A" in both Yoki and strength.

I don't expect a "Mop up" with a former #2, we ARE talking Rigaldo level here, so the battle should still be epic, but I do believe that the Ghosts will get by without Yoki.

As for Miata, I'm willing to bet an A+ in Yoki at least, Galatea did state that she is stronger Yoki-wise, and Galatea is an A.

As for Strength, definitely an A or better, and she is still a child.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:05   Link #1004
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I don't expect a "Mop up" with a former #2, we ARE talking Rigaldo level here, so the battle should still be epic, but I do believe that the Ghosts will get by without Yoki.

As for Miata, I'm willing to bet an A+ in Yoki at least, Galatea did state that she is stronger Yoki-wise, and Galatea is an A.

As for Strength, definitely an A or better, and she is still a child.
Miatas stats should be close to the twins if she has the potential to surpass them so she should be around the A to A+ in most of her stats though I wouldn't be surprised if she's S in yoki.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:09   Link #1005
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I don't expect a "Mop up" with a former #2, we ARE talking Rigaldo level here, so the battle should still be epic, but I do believe that the Ghosts will get by without Yoki.
Rigardo was taken by Clare alone 7 years ago (I know she was almost awakened). What made Rigardo a fearsome beast is his agility IMO. Agatha lacks in that department! She is immobile so far. Her weak point is very exposed and long unlike someone's neck even weak Clarice threatened her. Heck normal human being soldiers almost got her. We have Phantom Miria aboard, Long-reach Helen, Double Claymore Deneve and Windcutter Clare.

They were fast enough to escape the Abyssal Riful without a scratch (Agatha is very similar in offense structure - Tentacles) . So I strongly believe that it would be a "quicky"

Of course Yagi could make an epic battle out of it but I wanna see the 7 ghosts beating the crap out of Agatha with her trying so helplessly to defend herself. Ah I guess that would still be epic!

Are you kidding me? the ghost 7 using yoki again?! Then all those 7 years of training are gone. Of course they are gonna do it without yoki.

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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
As for Miata, I'm willing to bet an A+ in Yoki at least, Galatea did state that she is stronger Yoki-wise, and Galatea is an A.

As for Strength, definitely an A or better, and she is still a child.
But isn't A+ inferior to A since it's not always manifested in its full potential? (back to square zero)
Isn't an A Claymore better than an A+ one given that she always has his A attribute in its full potential unlike an A+ which need to excel in it to get its potential? Either way, we agree that she is a yoki monster!

Last edited by Anima; 2008-02-03 at 18:20.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:19   Link #1006
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But isn't A+ inferior to A since it's not always manifested in its full power? (back to square zero)
Isn't an A Claymore better than an A+ one given that he always has his A attribute in its full potential unlike an A+ which need to excel in it to get its potential? Either way, we agree that she is a yoki monster!

A+ isn't inferior to A it just means there base power is A but sometimes goes past this in certain situations.Its like clare's senseing it's rated C+ meaning normaly its power is C but sometimes its much more powerful like fighting ABs it could be rated B or even A.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:24   Link #1007
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A+ isn't inferior to A it just means there base power is A but sometimes goes past this in certain situations.Its like clare's senseing it's rated C+ meaning normaly its power is C but sometimes its much more powerful like fighting ABs it could be rated B or even A.
Or alternatively, A+ means that A is the level at which a warrior can use her ability depending on conditions. This is still what makes more sense to me. So I would agree that one who operates at A+ is inferior because certain conditions must first be met as opposed to one who is ranked A and operates at that level readily.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:36   Link #1008
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Or alternatively, A+ means that A is the level at which a warrior can use her ability depending on conditions. This is still what makes more sense to me. So I would agree that one who operates at A+ is inferior because certain conditions must first be met as opposed to one who is ranked A and operates at that level readily.
I think you misunderstood what I said when a warrior has a A+ stat it basically means normaly there power is A but under certain conditions there power goes beyond that.
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Old 2008-02-03, 18:44   Link #1009
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Rigardo was taken by Clare alone 7 years ago (I know she was almost awakened). What made Rigardo a fearsome beast is his agility IMO. Agatha lacks in that department! She is immobile so far. Her weak point is very exposed and long unlike someone's neck even weak Clarice threatened her. Heck normal human being soldiers almost got her. We have Phantom Miria aboard, Long-reach Helen, Double Claymore Deneve and Windcutter Clare.
The problem is, the power is still going to be close, Rigaldo specialized in speed, Agatha specializes in multi-angle attacking, so while Rigaldo is a speed demon, Agatha is an offensive nightmare.

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They were fast enough to escape the Abyssal Riful without a scratch (Agatha is very similar in offense structure - Tentacles) . So I strongly believe that it would be a "quicky"
Yes, but they definatly did not want to stay and fight her, which indicates they could not deal with Riful's fighting style without at least suffering several causulties.

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Of course Yagi could make an epic battle out of it but I wanna see the 7 ghosts beating the crap out of Agatha with her trying so helplessly to defend herself. Ah I guess that would still be epic!

Are you kidding me? the ghost 7 using yoki again?! Then all those 7 years of training are gone. Of course they are gonna do it without yoki.
Epic battle would be a lead up to the defeat of Agatha, if she just insta-dies it does nothing for us, we don't get to see any real power from the 7 Ghosts if its a cake-walk.

Quote:
But isn't A+ inferior to A since it's not always manifested in its full potential? (back to square zero)
Isn't an A Claymore better than an A+ one given that she always has his A attribute in its full potential unlike an A+ which need to excel in it to get its potential? Either way, we agree that she is a yoki monster!
No it's not, A+ means a baseline of A, but under the right circumstances spikes well above that, which is why Galatea has a B+ in strength, as does Jean.

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Originally Posted by Newhope View Post
A+ isn't inferior to A it just means there base power is A but sometimes goes past this in certain situations.Its like clare's senseing it's rated C+ meaning normaly its power is C but sometimes its much more powerful like fighting ABs it could be rated B or even A.
Exactly.

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Or alternatively, A+ means that A is the level at which a warrior can use her ability depending on conditions. This is still what makes more sense to me. So I would agree that one who operates at A+ is inferior because certain conditions must first be met as opposed to one who is ranked A and operates at that level readily.
I doubt it, it would make no sense as a + indicates greater than, so a C+ would be worse then a B most of the time, but a B+ is a B, that occasionally goes A level or higher under the right circumstances.

This makes sense as I doubt Clare's C+ in sensing means she is worse at Yoki sensing when compared to almost every other member of the fab 4 unless under certain circumstances. The same goes for Jean's strength and and all of the partially-awakened ones Yoki.

If Miria wasn't a B "most" of the time, then she wouldn't be as highly ranked as she was, as Flora would have been considered stronger.
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:01   Link #1010
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I have a different take on these characters.

We're probably looking at Clare's stats which were taken from when she was first activated. Yeah, it seems that her sensing is better than most of her peers, but she didn't start out this way. Just because she inherited Teresa's preemptive reading doesn't mean she can do it at Teresa's level. So Clare being at the very bottom rank 47 when her stats were published, her sensing is C, and it was that good when she was trying real hard at it as seen in The Slashers arc.

Jean wasn't shown to be strong like Galatea was. No, her strength manifested in her DrillSword. So she can achieve a strength of B grade when she's doing the DrillSword.

It seems that Miria was originally on par with Flora in terms of physical abilities. Why Miria outranks her is 1) her leadership skills which is better than Flora's in a group setting, 2) her Phantom Mirage matches Windcutter. It's one thing for someone to swing her sword fast, but it's another to launch a charge attack matching the velocity of that sword swing. I would reckon that Miria's yoki quality is at B+ when using the Phantom Mirage.
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:09   Link #1011
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I have a different take on these characters.

We're probably looking at Clare's stats which were taken from when she was first activated. Yeah, it seems that her sensing is better than most of her peers, but she didn't start out this way. Just because she inherited Teresa's preemptive reading doesn't mean she can do it at Teresa's level. So Clare being at the very bottom rank 47 when her stats were published, here sensing is C, and it was that good when she was trying real hard at it as seen in The Slashers arc.
Even so, her C+ indicates that her Sensing was considered average normally, but it is obvious its usefulness spiked immensely against ABs.

Quote:
Jean wasn't shown to be strong like Galatea was. No, her strength manifested in her DrillSword. So she can achieve a strength of B grade when she's doing the DrillSword.

Do you honestly believe that Jean's Drillsword is a B? The same Drill Sword that easily blew right through Dauf's body? One of the most armored ABs we have seen? I am quite certain her strength is considered S level when using the Drillsword. Even Galatea going 80% with her B+ level strength was not able to produce the same level of damage that Jean's drill arm was capable of.

And notice Galatea was only portrayed as strong when using her Yoki.


Quote:
It seems that Miria was originally on par with Flora in terms of physical abilities. Why Miria outranks her is 1) her leadership skills which is better than Flora's in a group setting, 2) her Phantom Mirage matches Windcutter. It's one thing for someone to swing her sword fast, but it's another to launch a charge attack matching the velocity of that sword swing. I would reckon that Miria's yoki quality is at B+ when using the Phantom Mirage.
Miria's Yoki would have to be consistently superior as well, because the Org generall doesn't give two-shits about someones leadership, as obvious by several of their highest ranking warriors, (Alicia/Beth, Ophelia, Raphaela, Miata) when rank is concerned.

Her Yoki is still what it usually is when using her Phantom ability, it is her agility that spikes above A level when she uses her Phantom ability.

It just wouldn't make sense for a A+ to be weaker then a A, as the term A+ means more then A, or A < .
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:39   Link #1012
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First, I don't think that one works her way up in her sensing ability in order to gain the predictive aura reading ability. Predictive aura reading is a special type of sensing that one either has or hasn't. Only two people are listed as having this ability (Teresa the original, Clare the inheritor, a third one being debatable). So I think Clare's C in sensing is sufficient to read ABs. I do believe she's better at it now, probably B+ if not B.

Yes, I believe the strength of Jean is increased to a B by her DrillSword. It's not the strength of Jean that cuts through Daph's armor, but the power by which that strength is amplified at DrillSword's high velocity and revolutions.

Back to Miria, her agility spikes to A when using her Phantom Mirage. I think that her yoki output is at B as a result of when she does the Phantom. The org can put someone of a lower grade to a higher rank depending on the circumstances. Look at Galatea and Ophelia. Their ranks are 3 and 4 respectively, each with equal yoki grades but Galatea is number 3 even though Ophelia is stronger and more agile.

I'm not discounting that Claymores have latent abilities, but I don't think that the org ranks according to some unknowable potential except maybe when it concerns Priscilla. If it's true that Claymores find their limits by getting closer and closer to it each time they use their power, what that suggests is that the org measured their power and assigned it a letter grade within their limits, going past which is the awakening process.

I understand that it can go the other way, that a letter grade represents the average and the + indicates more of it under conditions, but the way in which the translation explains the use of that + seems to betray that thinking.
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Old 2008-02-03, 19:47   Link #1013
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Jean wasn't shown to be strong like Galatea was. No, her strength manifested in her DrillSword. So she can achieve a strength of B grade when she's doing the DrillSword.
Jean is good example of this gradeing system Her Strength is B+ which means her normal attacks are at strength B the + part comes into play when she uses her DrillSword.Galatea told us that Jean had the most powerful attack out of the 47 warriors which means when Jean uses her DrillSword her strength is higher than A which was the highest at the time.

The + sign mainly means that the claymore has a skill or ability that pushes the effectiveness of that stat when in use some examples are Jeans DrillSword/ clares Pre-Emptive Perception and Galatea's yoki release.
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:06   Link #1014
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Here's my problem with Galatea's comment about Jean's attack. Not having met the twins before and probably Raphaela too who appears to have been reserved for covert missions, and Ophelia having died a while back, the 47 against whom she compares Jean are ranked at most B, save for Undine whose brute strength was artificially enhanced by yoki distortion. That powerful attack doesn't come from Jean's natural or even yoki enhanced strength alone, but the fact that the sword is in a high speed rotation and that Jean is charging at a high speed. I couldn't be persuaded to think that Jean was as strong as Ophelia, Raphaela, or even Galatea.

Last edited by khryoleoz; 2008-02-03 at 20:28.
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:16   Link #1015
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Here's my problem with Galatea's comment about Jean's attack. Not having met the twins before and probably Raphaela too who appears to have been reserved for covert missions, and Ophelia having died a while back, the 47 against whom she compares Jean are ranked at most B, save for Undine whose brute strength was artificially enhanced by yoki distortion. That powerful attack doesn't come from Jean's natural or even yoki enhanced strength alone, but the fact that the sword is in a high speed rotation and that Jean is charging at a high speed. I couldn't be persuaded to think that Jean was as strong as Ophelia, Raphaela, or even Galatea.
Thats the whole point of this grading system Jean isn't as strong as any of them normaly its only when she used her skill did it beat them .And no the best strength would still be A they was still that muscle freek Undine about she was ranked A in strength to.
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:19   Link #1016
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No, that's my argument. Your argument would be saying that Jean is still stronger than they, because on average she is B, but under certain conditions, she is A or who knows how much higher. Can you actually believe she is stronger than Raphaela or Ophelia?
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:25   Link #1017
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Here's my problem with Galatea's comment about Jean's attack. Not having met the twins before and probably Raphaela too who appears to have been reserved for covert missions, and Ophelia having died a while back, the 47 against whom she compares Jean are ranked at most B, save for Undine whose brute strength was artificially enhanced by yoki distortion. That powerful attack doesn't come from Jean's natural or even yoki enhanced strength alone, but the fact that the sword is in a high speed rotation and that Jean is charging at a high speed. I couldn't be persuaded to think that Jean was as strong as Ophelia, Raphaela, or even Galatea.
The fundamental problem is, Jean was not considered the strongest, she was considered to have the most powerful attack among all the Claymores, I'm willing to bet Jean's attack is capable of killing ANYONE in the Claymoreverse, provided it hits of course.

Ophelia and Raphaela are also listed as having superior strength to Jean on Average, so your right, she isn't as strong as them in most situations. Galatea's Yoki-enhanced strength is what gives her a B+ (her special enchantment literally being an increase in strength above the norm)
So Galatea's B in strength is much higher, probably A level, when using her Yoki.

But as evident by the Dauf fight, Jean's attack is far more damaging, you can say that Jean's attack isn't about the strength, but do not doubt it requires an immense amount of strength for her to be able to twist her arm around like that, and then uncoil it so quickly it turns into the ultimate death-weapon.

Alicia and Beth are of course exceptions, because no one had seen them at all yet, and they have a + in almost every stat.

Speaking of Undine, even with her Strength of A by the Organization's ranking, she was unable to pierce armor as easily as Jean, this is because she lacks the "+" that both Jean and Galatea have, hell, even Helen has a +, but her average strength is a C, that + obviously coming from her arm-stretching, which has appears to have alot more impact then her normal attacks.

Its obvious you hold your own ideas over how the system works, but it just makes so much more sense if you follow what we have been saying.

B+ is on average a B; under the right circumstances (certain techniques, Yoki, opponents) it may raise a rank, or several. So a B+ can equal an A, and depending on the circumstances, surpass it.

So Jean, on average, is weaker then Raphaela and Ophelia, but when using her drill-sword (her + factor) she becomes who knows how much higher, probably S level.

I think you may be misunderstanding something we are saying khryoleoz, judging by your above post, because what you stated is your arguement IS our arguement.
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:28   Link #1018
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I think about the value of + if it is to mean there is more to the power beyond the grade. This is true and obvious of all Claymores, as they all have limits which they can pass (and awaken) or surpass (and semi-awaken), either of which results in increasing that power or ability. The question is not whether one has more power than what is rated. It is at what level is one's power used effectively. If a grade was assigned within the Claymore's limits, then I really don't see the point in saying such can do more if she passes her limits, which is the likely requisite of extending that one's power. And no one has any guarantee that they can return from passing their limits.

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Old 2008-02-03, 20:35   Link #1019
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I think about the value of + if it is to mean there is more to the power beyond the grade. This is true and obvious of all Claymores, as they all have limits which they can pass (and awaken) or surpass (and semi-awaken), either of which results in increasing that power or ability. The question is not whether one has more power than what is rated. It is at what level is one's power used effectively. If a grade was assigned within the Claymore's limits, then I really don't see the point in saying such can do more if she passes her limits, which is the likely requisite of extending that one's power. And no one has any guarantee that they can return from passing their limits.
The grades aren't an indication of limit, they are an indication of quality.

Someone with an A in strength will obviously have more strength then someone with a B, but that does not mean that their limit is higher, their limit is related to their Yoki.

Passing your limits is something that is a new, and rare phenomina, only the partially-awakened have had a "+" in their Yoki, and Priscilla. Jean and Clare don't have it because the Org probably doesn't even know that they partially-awakened. (As both of them had their partial-awakenings infront of people who wouldn't tell.) The Organization also never got to regrade Clare after her escape from Ophelia, but they were aware of her Flash-sword and Pre-emptive Yoki-sensing.

Yoki is what limits the Claymores, but their attributes listed here are simply their ranking.
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Old 2008-02-03, 20:41   Link #1020
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Now I'm the one being misunderstood. The grades aren't of course an indication of limit. They are an indication of the quality within the limit of a Claymore's powers.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything. What is proposed by the idea is that under the right circumstances, Jean's strength is equal to or stronger than Raphaela or Ophelia. That is the plain and ultimate conclusion one is led to by that idea, and this simply can't be true. Now I may not have been clear on the correlation between Jean's strength and her DrillSword. I do not propose that Jean's strength is measured by her DrillSword so that they're interchangeable, hence the strength of DrillSword is at most B. The nature of DrillSword as an attack is a high velocity one that involves drilling the sword. That is why it can pierce Daph's armor. What I propose is that it is under the condition of doing DrillSword that Jean's strength is enhanced or elevated to B. DrillSword is a powerful attack because at a strength level of B the sword is being drilled at a high velocity rotation. I am of the suspicion that warriors who rank A in strength (plus Priscilla ) can generate enough power to pierce or cut through Daph's armor, and there have been only a handful of Claymores who have had an A ranking in strength (though I'll have to exclude Undine from this list).
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